DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum What can the front office do to help?

Of course there can be. We have some realistic things to be positive about. I mean the D is better though still young. So I see that as a a positive.

But saying things like we can beat Detroit are just pie in the sky dreams.

We are all human and make mistakes....Josh G, played at high level partly stoned/drunk and nobody knew or stepped up and told anyone....Johnny M was 2010s version of Bobby Lane, a drunk who played pretty good football- and someone HOPED he'd do same things in Pros he got away with in college- hell, Nick Saban started recruiting different because of him- but, alas, he= Johnny had zero commitment to his craft- why change after all his success....what do I know- we drafted a QB with all the physical and mental characteristics you want, he's 21, he's taking his lumps.....I'd ride him to end AND draft another QB this coming season...GO Browns!!!!

There is no pity in being realistic.

Is Jabrill Peppers going to prove to be any more of a factor than Justin Gilbert was?

Did they cut Joe Haden because they had selected Jabrill Peppers.

I'm really starting to dislike the lack of playmaking from Peppers.
He was a complete no factor in the one game I saw him in College.

Has he been a factor in any game so far this year.

Is Jabrill Peppers going to show why he belongs in the NFL anytime in the near future?

Never was a huge fan of Peppers as a cover guy, but I don't think he is a jerk like Gilber.

Peppers should play better if we play him at SS. The problem is that we have Kindred there. Both are very similar players. Good run defenders who can't cover their own shadow.

Poor drafting strategy.

In my opinion they are playing Peppers in the wrong spot because he's the best they have at FS right now.

He would be much better in the box.

J/C

Gregg Williams spoke at length about Jabill Peppers in his Friday presser, if anyone is interested. Skip ahead in to the 9:00 mark.

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/media-cen...20-4041b2a181da

- Great kid

- All rookies show quite a bit of improvement and comfortablility in the second half in the season. No matter how much training, it is still a shock to rookies how fast everyone in this league is.

- Gregg Wants him to have more confidence to make risky plays. Can't be afraid to make a mistake to take a risk.

- He's come a long way, he thinks like a coach, he "never shuts up" talking about all the plays that just took place and discusses what he wishes he'd seen and questioning why he didn't do something. He's getting quicker and quicker and quicker, mentally.

Sounds like Gregg genuinely loves Jabrill. I do too. I think this is another case of too many people being angry at a rookie for playing like a rookie. He's still learning, but he hasn't been a liability and he isn't playing poorly. He's been solid, but like Gregg said, we need him to continue taking steps forward. It sounds like there is a lot of confidence he will take those steps.

Not sure who is angry? I just think he is more of a SS than a FS. He is not a good cover guy or a good tackler in space. I think he would be much more effective in the box. The problem is that Kindred is the same kind of player. I'm not angry at all. Just telling it the way I see it. Of course, I could be dead wrong and Peppers might end up being a tremendous FS w/awesome instincts and all of a sudden become a great open-field tackler. One never knows...

The whole Peppers pick has left me scratching my head. He's being asked to do things he didn't do in college and he's not doing much any of the things he excelled at in college.

I cannot imagine the Browns anticipated the growth of Kindred in the SS-type role. I believe that growth to be a pleasant surprise to both the coaches and fans. Had Kindred NOT progressed like he did, would Peppers be in the box and insert-a-name be playing the deep safety role? If so, who would Mr. insert-a-name be?

Campbell was a box safety as well...we had no cover safety besides Ed Reynolds who got hurt.

I'm ok with the Peppers pick if they were thinking BPA...I just wonder if they thought of Peppers at FS when they made the pick.

He's being asked to do things he didn't do in college because that's his best natural fit in the NFL. I understand where you're coming from, but what he did in college shouldn't define his career when developing his skills to match his athletic prowess in the NFL could give us a special FS.

He has the incredible traits you want from a premier FS, but he just needs to grow in to the role because he wasn't given the chance to do so in college. Ironically, he was held back in college because he is such an incredible athlete.

Like I said, though, I think he's been very underrated this season. He hasn't been making huge, game breaking plays, but he hasn't been giving up plays, either. I find that promising for his future. He hasn't been as polished as Marcus Maye or Marcus Williams, but he also hasn't done anything to suggest he cannot play the position.

I think Gregg loves all his players, but there is an excitement when he talks about Garrett and Peppers that he cannot hide. For that reason, I'm willing to give it time and let it play out.

I feel what you're saying though, and I don't think you're wrong, but there seems to be something there that the coaches really are pleased with.

Excellent points there. My head-scratching moments are more derived from the people who say (paraphrasing here) "He's playing deep safety because he's the best we've got there right now". It seems there is not much of the "we are developing him there and think he can be a very good FS".

That leads me to believe that his playing FS is temporary...and if it's temporary, who did they think would next play FS? Is the real long-term plan for him to play that hybrid-LB role that was talked about after the draft and we draft a FS next year? Or are they going to take the time to develop him at FS? I'm good with developing him as a FS...but the words from the team seem to indicate that there is a different long-term idea of where he will end up.

If i understand your last response correctly ...

Your saying its OK to put the “round peg in the square hole” ... it sounds like thats what your saying to me ...

Why would we want to try and make him something he’s not ..

Why would u want to try and shove him into the FS role when he is not a FS .. he’s a FOOTBALL PLAYER that needs to be used as a tool that doesn’t fit in any box ...

I hope Williams plan works out ... hes struggling as a rookie like many before ... we’ll know a lot more about him over the course of the next 2 years ....

He needs to be in a Polumula “hybrid type” role to be utilized correctly IMO ...

Take it FWIW, because the source is Grossi, but he was on the radio this week saying that in his opinion the plan had been to play McCourty at FS and Peppers at SS. Then Joe Haden was cut and they needed McCourty to play CB. I don't know whether Hue and Williams were onboard with the decision when Haden was released.

j/c - regarding Peppers. I guess we have not seen the best of him. My issues to date - he doesn't cover well (or other's have blown their assignment and made him look bad?) - he has taken some poor angles - and he looks like a "Hitter" not a "Tackler" ..... From this small sample we've seen I have been woefully under impressed. Harbaugh raved about his football intelligence ... I am hoping he can find his niche on the field whether it's in the box or wherever. 8 games isn't enough to judge him on - but like I said, so far I am underwhelmed.

*LOL* ... if we’ve seen the best of him were in DEEP TROUBLE ... that made me *L* ...

I agree with your post ... all of it ...

The 8 game part especially ...

U pointed out one of my biggest long term fears with him ... i agree hes a hitter and not a tackler ... hopefully he can become a tackler ... that’s IMPERATIVE or the other skills we hope he has will be negated by that ..

I think fans can get a little too caught up with FS/SS but it is a dying distinction between players. Sort of like the 4/3 vs 3/4 argument. Regardless of which role you play, you're expected to be versatile in the modern game. I think that was the appeal with Peppers - A guy with the game of an elite SS but the athletic ability of a FS that makes you drool. If we can cross-train him to be a high end FS who can come up in to the box without being out of place, that's something special.

Gregg Williams is one helluva weird cat. I wouldn't be shocked if his adoration of Peppers was because he felt like this kid could fill either role in a moment's notice if the development went play. So while he was drafted as a FS, he can do both. Gregg Williams was Sean Taylor's #1 fan - and I would argue that he was the first elite S: Not a SS, not a FS, just a S who could do anything you wanted him to do.

Worth note, Kai Nacua got some playing time against the Vikings and we promptly cut Campbell following that. Nacau was an accomplished FS in college, so I wonder if we might see him a little more to give us some versatility with more creative use of Peppers.

Of course, it is all subjective in a not-for-long league. If Kindred doesn't continue to improve, or Peppers stagnates in his development at FS, or we just outright get the chance to add a high-end FS, I wouldn't be shocked to see the rotations made.

I would have to think on that thought and idea that the distinction between the positions is less and less -

My initial reaction was that when I think of elite SS or FS players - they are elite at one of those specialized position or the other. They are not a jack of all trades. But maybe effective defenses with combo-FS/SS players don't have superstars that jump out at you? Hmmmm. Interesting.

You're not wrong. You still want specialized positional qualities as your baseline, but I think all teams like to chase the dragon with someone who gives them something more.

I think of a guy like Earl Thomas. Arguably the best FS in the league, but the guy is a beast anywhere on the field. It isn't uncommon for him to play up inside the box.

Tyvon Branch is one of the best against the run, but they love to bring the Honey Badger up inside or close to the line of scrimmage, so Branch also has had to show off his abilities playing a deeper coverage role when that occurs. Harrison Smith is another FS I love who plays anywhere - they're not afraid of bringing him up, and he's had a wonderful career with a lot of tackles and sacks as a result. He's my favourite blitzing safety.

Another example we're all familiar with is Troy Polamalu. He was undoubtedly a SS, but the guy covered like a free. He was a freak. So glad he retired ahaha.

Now, all those guys I mention, they're at their best playing their specialized roles. Nobody is going to confuse Earl Thomas or Harrison Smith as having equal value up close as when they're deep in coverage, but I think it's all part of trying to slow down a passing league that any safety can be used in any role to try and create confusion and defensive versatility.

In that regard, Peppers is undoubtedly playing catch up. He's currently playing the role that isn't his strongest suit, but it seems the perception is that it isn't his strongest suit simply due to his inexperience in terms of playing a deeper coverage role. Hopefully he can catch up, because it'd be amazing to have a guy we can legitimately use any-which-way without a significant decline.

Came across an article that looked like something Vers would like. Figured this thread was as good a place as any. Here's an excerpt:
Link

I like reading your posts, but this couldn't be further from the truth. The difference between FS and SS are day and night. The FS has to be much better at reading WR's and covering space. While I love reading your football posts, on occasion you reach to make your point. This is one such occasion.

I understand, and I felt that somewhat came across wrong which is why I dedicated few more words to it in a following post using player examples to emphasise the point.

I'm not suggesting there is no difference between the positions or the responsibilities of players at those positions, but we are moving towards a league in which a player is expected to function at a high level in all aspects of the game.

We wouldn't accept a SS who couldn't read receivers or cover in space, nor would we accept a FS scared of getting his jersey dirty. That isn't just to suggest proficiency within the obvious responsibilities of each position, but a true designation that a player must be able to play both.

And I'm not just quoting myself, the Browns have publically said this. Comments from Browns safeties coach Jerod Cruse this season:

“Our philosophy and (defensive coordinator) Gregg’s (Williams) philosophy on defense has always been to find out what guys can do and try and put those guys in the best situation, whether it is playing strong (safety) or playing free (safety) or playing both or playing a safety-hybrid linebacker down around the box. We have a few guys that can do some of those things.”

More and more, players are expected to be able to fulfil multiple roles without regard for the traditional roles of their listed positions.

https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2017/8/8/1...rring-the-lines

Who are the first 3 quick players that come to mind that got better after they joined the Browns.
Or show measurable improvement. in their football game, the more time they spend with the Browns.

Not trying to make any point, just wondering.

How about giving away T shirts with all the failed coaching staffs since Marty Shottenheimer.
30 years of the same stupid mistakes.

I agree totally. It isn't the most popular opinion, but I think as early as next year we're going to have a damn good football team.

I'm not sure if anyone mentioned it, but Lions S Glover Quin said, following our game with the Lions, that the Browns have a top 10 talented team in the league. Quin said the Browns "Probably" have more talent than 25 other NFL teams. "They've got talent, they just haven't won a bunch of games. Don't sleep on them."

Their coach, Jim Caldwell, also reiterated that point. "It's very difficult to play a team that everybody thinks... doesn't have talent. They have talent."

I honestly think we outplayed the Lions, much as we've outplayed more teams than not this season. Our problem is we can't beat ourselves. We're making silly, clumsy errors that are costing us games.

If we give this team a little time to get it right, I have no doubt our patience will be greatly rewarded.

Browns: Only 4 explanations for not firing Sashi Brown

Cleveland Browns executive vice president of football operations Sashi Brown is still employed. How can this be?

Here’s 4 explanations.
link

As memories of Halloween night 2017 haunt the hearts and minds of Cleveland Browns fans for the rest of their lives, the loyal followers entered the month of November wondering how Sashi Brown still has a job.

The Browns have one win in 24 chances under Brown, who has the final say on putting together the 53-man roster.

Had Jamie Meder not blocked a kick against the San Diego Chargers last Christmas Eve, the Browns would’ve set a record for consecutive losses with their most recent loss against the Vikings in England.

Under Brown, Browns fans have found themselves pining for Eric Mangini and Art Modell. For as much as Browns Town hated the teams those men constructed, the Dawg Pound never had to worry about going winless.

But now, a “perfect” season is something that’s very real, for the second straight season in a row.

The once proud franchise started by Paul Brown that was elevated to legendary status with the play of Otto Graham, Marion Motley, Jim Brown has been relegated to whatever “this” actually is.

There’s a lot of guesses as to what’s going on in the headquarters in Berea, but this one thing is certain. They’re not playing football.

So, how could Sashi Brown still have a job? Here’s, what has to be, the only four explanations in the world.

1. He’s a place holder

Sashi Brown went from the salary cap guru/team contract negotiator to the man in charge of putting together the 53-man roster.

And if you notice, the Browns still have no on on the payroll that it pays as its “president.”

Perhaps Sashi is doing what owner Jimmy Haslam intended for him all along: to keep the seat occupied until Peyton Manning finally decides what he wants to do with his future.

Then, Manning could step in with a king’s ransom worth of draft picks. He’d be able to hit the ground running on the rebuilt, while Sashi could go back to Sashi things, like reminding everyone he went to Harvard by being the strict contract negotiator.

Haslam went way out out the mainstream to bring in baseball analytics guru Paul Depodesta, with Brown serving as the only semblance of a checks and balances system.

Since Browns promotion, the organization has committed one fatal blunder after another. Browns first big move as VP was to trade down out of the No. 2 spot during the 2016 NFL Draft, thus hand delivering Carson Wentz to the Philadelphia Eagles.

This year, the Browns have beaten down their fan base by passing on Deshaun Watson in the 2017 draft, giving Kenny Britt $10 million in guaranteed money, falling asleep at the wheel while Jimmy Garoppolo was available, and then botching the paperwork on the A.J. McCarron trade.

Perhaps Brown botched the AJ trade because he knew giving up a second and a third rounder was an awful business decision. Either way, if the intent was for him to be a placeholder, his time putting together the 53-man roster should be coming to an end.

2. Haslams are distracted

The Haslam family may not want to make any drastic moves with their football team because their other big business, the one that built the family’s wealth high enough so they could join the billionaire club of NFL owners, is under trial.

The gasoline rebate scam that’s plagued Pilot/Flying J the past three years will finally climax as those indicted will have their day in court, when proceeding commence Nov. 6.

There’s still a chance Jimmy Haslam could be indicted, but it’s unlikely at this point. He’s always maintained his innocence.

Either way, Haslam’s top people are about to stand trial. It’s got to take a toll on the person who was overseeing it all.

Additionally, the sale of Pilot to Warren Buffett has also re-entered the public consciousness.

For some cynics, it’s just too big of a coincidence that the Haslam family finally decided to sell just before the start of the federal trial.

Either way, sorting through the mess of a football organization might be something the owners have put on the back burner. The team’s not going to all of a sudden turn around an rip off eight straight wins and slide into the playoffs as a Wild Card.

Hopefully, not firing Brown won’t hurt the organization more than it already has. If it’s true that Brown was leaving work at 5 p.m. and not working the phones on a trade, Haslam must put the team in more capable hands, even if its for an interim basis.

3. Haslam is sticking with analytics

This is crazy, and if it is true, attendance will continue to shrink with Brown in charge of assembling the roster.

But remember, when Paul DePodesta took this job, he told Haslam “five years.”

That means this analytically driven front office isn’t even halfway into the time they sold Haslam on.

When you factor in Jimmy Haslam is bothered by the national perception that he has a quick trigger finger, there’s the chance he may keep Brown in place just because he doesn’t want to get beat up nationally again for ending things too quickly.

However, locally, he’d be wise to cut ties with Brown and DePodesta because the people who actually buy the tickets seem to be more apathetic than ever. Giving up an entire Sunday to watch the Browns get embarrassed every week just isn’t a feasible way to use a day of the week.

Giving Brown another year would be crazy, but remember that whole place holder argument, and then consider Haslam may want to see this through, no matter how bad its going.

4. Bill Belichick really still hates the Browns

Some are applauding Brown for “botching” the paperwork on the A.J. McCarron trade, but the inability to pull of a trade for Jimmy Garoppolo is inexcusable.

But perhaps, Brown never had a shot to get Jimmy G because of old feelings he has against his former franchise, and his owner can’t take it out on him because, hey, what’s a guy to do?

Poppy-[censored], I know. Everyone who was in charge when Bill was here is either dead, retired, or working somewhere else. Plus, The Hooded One has executed trades with the current regime. Although the Jamie Collins deal is making it look like he robbed the Browns blind.

OK, I really thought the Belichick story was lame until I saw this, from a credible NFL reporter.


Daniel Jeremiah ✔@MoveTheSticks

Would love to know if Browns had any shot at Jimmy G. Some around the league believe BB wouldn't consider "helping" them at QB. Old feelings
8:08 PM - Oct 30, 2017
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One would think Bill would take the best deal for his team. That’s how god organizations function.

Meanwhile, the Browns are stuck looking clueless…again.

Patriots weary of Browns trade tactics

In Browns rumors, the Patriots didn’t even consider trading Jimmy Garoppolo to Cleveland because Bill Belichick didn’t want to haggle with the Browns.

link

Why weren’t the Cleveland Browns in on acquiring Jimmy Garoppolo before Tuesday’s NFL trade deadline?

If you listen to ESPN’s Adam Schefter talk, you’ll understand why.

Apparently, nothing ever comes easy when dealing with the Browns front office, led by executive vice president of football operations, Sashi Brown.

Schefter said on ESPN Cleveland’s Really Big Show, that the 49ers and Patriots started talking about trade for Jimmy G on Monday morning.

Cleveland had tried for months to pry Garoppolo away from the Pats, but as Schefter reported, New England wasn’t interested in moving their 2014 second-round pick.

Patriots coach Bill Belichick thought he could get Garoppolo signed last spring, and into the summer. It didn’t happen, and The Hooded One went into trade deadline day with a quarterback who was going to walk at the end of the year unless the Patriots threw a bunch of money at him.

Tom Brady is still Tom Brady, and it’s not exactly “The Patriot Way” to throw a bunch of a cash at a backup quarterback.

Belichick and the 49ers consummated talks Monday morning, and the deal got done before the end of the day.

So, why not the Browns? After all, Cleveland had made overtures to the Patriots for months.

Long story short, the Patriots are weary of dealing with the Browns, via TheLandonDemand (9:00, subscription required).

“Even when they were doing the Jamie Collins deal. It’s an example of how things have worked with the Browns…deals get complex for whatever reasons. The Jamie Collins talks went on for a couple weeks. Teams can make moves in five minutes. Nothing ever seems easy when it comes to deal with Browns,” Schefter said.


The big knock on the Browns is that the front office tries to “win the deal” in every transaction.
Just look at what happened to Terrelle Pryor. The Browns won the deal, and lost the player, replacing TP with Kenny Britt. Both players have tanked this season, but wouldn’t you at least have Pryor, who guy who showed that he’s hungry and cares about winning?

The Patriots operate with a different philosophy, according to Schefter.

“Their mentality isn’t to win the deal, it’s to do what’s right for their team…that means trading Jimmy G out of out conference, to an organization they like and trust. I think it just got going in that direction. They felt the value was fair…”


When it comes to the inner workings of the NFL, Schefter is the gold standard of reporting, and quite frankly, it’s so deflating to see him report this.

The Patriots didn’t even give the Browns a chance because they didn’t want to play the haggling game with Sasshi and the gang.

Now, the 49ers have their quarterback of the future and Cleveland fans are left wondering if DeShone Kizer will emerge as player to build around, or if their downtrodden team will be looking for another quarterback come draft day.

The failure to get Garoppolo, and the disorganization surrounding the botching of the A.J. McCarron trade made for the worst week in Browns’ front office history. And Schefter’s words just make it worse.

The Browns keep "winning the deal" and they miss out on trades and lose good players to other teams while their record 1 and 24 under the guy that keeps "winning deals."

How did it make us better?

We are 7 points better because of this.

Terrelle Pryor thus far in 2017:

20/37 for 240 yd, 1 TD

Kenny Britt

12/30 for 166 yds, 2 TD


So, not only is Britt the more efficient receiver in Yds per Catch, he has gotten into the end zone more.

You can forget Pryor now, Britt has proven himself to be better, and has proven the FO to be 100% correct with this move.

There's a certain artistry some of you guys post with... I'm jealous

J/C

This weekend - If Houston loses to Arizona, Dolphins lose to the Buccaneers and Bills lose to the Chargers, that Houston selection will already be tied for the #4th overall selection.

The 3rd pick currently belongs to the Giants, who are 1-8 and take on the Chiefs.

There is no point lamenting prior drafts. It won't change what is. Moving forward, we've got an incredible quantity of selections to continue improving this roster.

That's all about your perspective. Looking at past drafts is considered an evaluation by many. Some say if you don't learn from history you're doomed to repeat it. Some look at actual performance to decide if they trust the ability of this FO in future drafts.

And some call it lamenting.