DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Kizer Round 3 ..

I'm not sure if he's having trouble making the reads or if he's just not trusting the reads/receivers. Probably some of both, but how much of each is hard to say.

My current apathy towards the Browns makes it difficult to go back and watch games again to try to figure it out.

Is he being told to "force" his choice to some receiver? Locks in and watches too long. His screw up or his instructions? Like forcing the ball to Pryor? Or to Josh Gordon when his routes could end up about anywhere? I ask because I do not know what has him bound up in bad choices. Hope this got fixed over bye week.

I think it's safe to assume the carousel of WRs has a lot to do with Kizer's issues. That's part of what is so sad about this "plan".

No.

He did the same thing at ND ... he LOCKED on and 80% of the time he never looked away ... and he held the ball way to long just like here ...

He should have not started at all this year and worked on his mechanics ... your not going to fix your mechanics during the year ... like vers said .. when the bullets start flying u go back to bad habits ....

He has a shot to fix that part ... IF he does that ... then comes the part that separates the boys from the men ... reading d’s ... not sure if he will ever get that ...

Hopefully we’ll find out ...

We need to draft a qb we LOVE ... bring in a vet ... and let them battle it out in TC ... hopefully the vet wins and we can sit the rook and Kizer ...

Or get Cousins ... thats a pipe dream in my opinion ...

I think that the fact that we lack any impact receivers hurts him, at least to some degree.

I watched several of Houston's games, and while Watson was better than I thought he would be, he also was often bailed out by great plays by Fuller.

I have to wonder what would happen is we had great receivers, for once.

An off season. And a 2nd year in the SAME Offense is critical for Kizer.

A healthy dose of Gordon, Coleman, Njoku, Duke and a Sutton or Ridley would give him EVERYTHING he needs.

No doubt playing Kizer was a bad decision. I just hope he isn't a total wreck at this point.

Warfield, Collins, and Renfo, plus Ernie Green add Mr. Brown and a smart qb like Dr. RYAN= championship.

Yeah but when they've been wide open, he has missed them. He has no touch. He throws a 90 MPH duck. Kelly was right on!!!!

Its a combination guys ...

- he wasn’t ready
- he has recievers that either suck or are very raw ...
- the first 6 games Hue did him no favors with the play calls, abonding the run and not utilizing Duke properly ... i think Hue has done a much better job in all 3 areas the last 2 games ...

Thats not a good recipe ... trying to point solely at one thing as the cause is foolish and your only decieving yourself ...

It certainly was noticeable in the last (London) game. We had more success on offense than I have seen all season...

And I'm old enough to remember !

Well yes, it is a combination of a lot of different things but Hue should be able to win one game you would think, no?

You’d hope we would have one win ... actually 3, maybe even 4 ...

Its NOT ALL HUES fault .. matter of fact he’s way down the list ...

Hue has his warts .. but to blame all the losing on him is LUDRICOUS and SHORT SIGHTED ...

I love your spirit Tony ... love it ... haven’t agreed with u a thing you’ve ever posted ... but i love your spirit .. *L* ..

I don't know if you can remember this or not, but those guys weren't favored, before the season or before the Championship game. Why ?? Weakness at QB....

Not completely sure about that, but I'm all for giving him more time to mature and evolve as a HC. Time and experience is what he needs. Just like anybody committed to their craft. However, he is still not utilizing the running game properly (esp. D. Johnson) and needs to get Njoku on the field more, IMO.

But as much people recognize Hue's need to get better at managing a game on a consistent basis, Kizer isn't giving him any favors.

I kinda disagree w/this a bit.

I think that unless you have a defense that can kick butt and a very good running game, that type of game plan will only work for awhile. Teams make adjustments and they eventually shut you down, just as we saw in the second half of the Minni game.

I dont disagree at all with what u said ... you’ve said it before ... and i agree with it ...

HUE HAS HIS HANDS CUFFED ... theirs no doubt ...

But asking Kizer to do things he can’t is NOT SMART ... its actually STUPID ...

I wanted Hue here until last week ... same with the FO .. now i want them both gone ..

BUT NOT BECAUSE OF HOW HUE HAS COACHED THE TEAM ...

I actually wish Hue would give CK a shot ...

I don't think asking Kizer to throw the ball deep and utilizing the sidelines is stupid.

In fact, I think that throwing the ball to the outside actually is better for a qb who can't read coverages. There is a lot more traffic in the middle of the field and it is way harder to make reads.

People don't seem to get that and keep talking about slants and other routes over the middle, but I think Hue was protecting Kizer.

Now, he has him dumping it off. I'll actually criticize Hue for that one. The routes he was calling were fine. You gotta see what you have in a player.

This just in............we were never making the playoffs this year.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree ....

With Kizer’s accuracy problems .. throwing over the middle is MORONIC ...

And having him go deep feeds right into his weakness of locking on for too long ...

U have to see what we have? ...

He’s not ready ... not sure its real smart to give a 5th grade 10th grade calculus ...

We knew the answer to what he has FOR NOW before he even took a snap ... and i know u think he wasn’t ready ... not sure why u think a guy that isn’t ready should have so much put on his plate ... doesn’t make sense to me...

Like i said .. we’ll just have to agree to disagree ..

Are you actually reading what I am saying?

I just said throwing over the middle was harder to read.

I had a big old response to this about me. Then I deleted it and just say I agree.

I could literally apply everything you said to 99% of NFL rookies. Like I pointed out in my last post. Irregular accuracy to all levels of the field, especially deep. Too much velocity. Breakdown of mechanics in situations where the quarterback can set, missed reads and opportunities, etc. That's why it was so easy to put together a comprehensive list that annihilated your argument for the false narrative it is.

You're not really talking about something that wouldn't make my, or anyone's, "Things we're almost certainly going to see from a rookie quarterback" list.

At the same time, I'd love to see this magical land in which Kizer consistently has a clean pocket, zero pressure and wide open receivers who don't drop anything unless it's Kizer's fault for throwing uncatchable passes too hard - so even when he does do something right, it's all wrong. Essentially, the kid hasn't ever done anything right.

If you're being honest, that's completely unfair and it also isn't realistic. We've got serious issues at receiver that need to be addressed, regardless of who the quarterback is.

He is young. He's 21 years old. The third youngest week 1 starting quarterback in the last 30 years of football. The youngest Browns quarterback to start, narrowly beating out Bernie Kosar (Who was awful as a rookie). He's young and he's playing like it. This team never should have selected such a player if the baseline expectation was to transcend what he is to immediately be pro-ready quarterback.

On the bright side, there isn't a pro-ready QB to select next year, so I'm excited to go through this process all over again.

tab and I don't get along, but I think his post was really strong.

someone posted Kizer's average time in pocket before he throws.

It was 3.19 seconds....by far the longest in the league...ergo clean pocket most of the time. imo

PFF currently have Kizer at 27th in the league at 2.97 on his time-to-throw. Just for reference, Carson Wentz is at 2.72 which is 22nd. Tom Brady is at 2.62 which is 12th. Derek Carr, at 2.21, has the fastest TTT in the NFL. Even more crazy is that nobody comes close to Carr, Eli Manning is #2 at 2.41.

That's why I'm not a big fan of that statistic, or the conclusion you derived from it. Between Kizer and the best in the NFL, the difference is 0.76. That's three quarters of a second.

Now take in to account that TTT is not a pocket restricted statistic. If you're a quarterback who runs from pressure, your TTT is through the roof. That's why guys like Tyrod Taylor, Deshone Kizer, Dak Prescott, Cam Newton etc are all down the bottom of the league. Russell Wilson has a TTT of 3.08 seconds (30th) and his offensive line is terrible. Mobile quarterbacks make lines look better when they can get outside of the pocket and extend the play.

With that said, I am not against our offensive line. I think we've got a RT getting his first starts in the NFL, a RG/C combo still getting accustomed to their new offense (They've steadily improved), a LG who missed a year and didn't have a strong start and, unfortunately, the GOAT is now injured - As admirable as Drango has been in those two games, he isn't Joe.

I think it makes up a small part towards the larger part of 1. A rookie QB and 2. The worst receivers in the NFL. Period. I'm stunned anyone is defending them. They SUCK.

With that said, there is no denying that Kizer isn't ready for the pace of the NFL game. He's had his problems holding the ball, locking on to targets and other little issues typical of a rookie. That's improved in recent weeks, but it won't make a jump until next year.

I'm looking forward to seeing what he can do with the rest of the season. Few people are objective enough to admit it, but he took a really nice step forward against Minnesota, who are one of the best defenses in the league and people were sure he'd have one for the record books in terms of atrocious games - He had some nice drives, no turnovers, put us in decent scoring positions, was much quicker getting the ball out, didn't take sacks until the end when the game was lost, he completed 66.7% in spite of multiple drops from Louis and Njoku. It was a positive step in the right direction.

Now he's had a week off to digest some film, he's got Coleman back who was his favourite target, I expect the right side of our line will continue to gel and improve, and hopefully we can finally get some run game going for him. Also, I like what I'm seeing from Njoku. Still having some issues, but I think he's trending in the right direction.

It is what it is. He's a rookie, but he was always going to be demolished if he played like it. Hopefully he can push though, keep growing, and be given a fair chance to compete next year.

I think that how long a guy holds the ball is a HUGE statistic. I have seen the difference between O-lines apparently "sucking" and playing "well" because of how long the qb holds the ball.

I think there are some extenuating circumstances, such as a guy like T. Taylor who scrambles around a lot or a guy like the Big Ben of year's past who tries to buy time in the pocket, but I think it there is no doubt that Kizer is slow in making his reads. How anyone who knows anything about football cannot recognize that is beyond me. He stands there and stares.

It's a problem. To deny it seems insincere. I hope he gets better at it, but as of right now, Kizer is holding the ball much too long.

Kizer is a bust. We need to go all out for Sam!!!!!!!!

I agree. Hues O didn't have this problem when he was in Cincy. It's not like his O is full of plays that take 5 seconds to unfold.

I'm not sure where that came from. Just because we disagreed didn't mean that wasn't a normal, civilized football discussion. I have no idea what I do so wrong for you to lash out, but I apologize for whatever it was.

Obviously Deshone Kizer isn't playing at a level any of us are content with, but I try to understand how difficult it is for a rookie to have success from the outset of his career - especially one so young on a team featuring a supporting cast that most people agree isn't at a level we're content with.

I can't show you anything. I'm a loser who doesn't watch football if I post statistics. I'm an ignorant fool who needs to learn some football before having an opinion if I try to express what I'm seeing without supporting information and I can't even get a response back that doesn't go personal for no apparent reason.

I think the ignore feature will make both our experiences more pleasant. I apologize that we couldn't see eye to eye enough to have a meaningful discussion. I do think you seem like an intelligent person and enjoyed your contributions. Thank you.

.....

Guess i’m on ignore ... *L* ...

When u present stats to make a BS point ... ya ... i’ll point it out EVERY DAMM TIME ....

Sorry if that offends u ... not really ... *L* ...

If i’m not all ready on ignore ... u may want to put me there ... it wil definetly enhance your experience when u try to tell that Mitch is playing no better than Kizer by showing completion % .... thats why .... STATS ARE FOR .....

U need to watch the games to know why thats NOT TRUE .. and presenting just the stats is giving out false info on that ...

Sorry if your ego can’t handle the truth ...

I really enjoy your posts ... the best part .. u can put me on ignore and i can still read u ... it should work out much better for u ... weather u can read this or not .... *LOL* ...

You are both great and valued posters. Be best to patch your differences. Who is going to make the first move?

Good game today by our QB!

Seth DeValve says sneak at end of half was not the play called, but Kizer has freedom to change call.

https://twitter.com/treed1919/status/929826638560456704

good... shows hue trust him.

J/C

I was thrilled with what I saw from Kizer today.

(Stats - Trigger warning)
21/37 for 232 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT.
7 rushes for 57 yards, 1 TD.

Those numbers are fantastic on their own, but they don't do him justice.

We had at least 10 drops or screw ups today that cost Kizer over 150 yards of offense.

Off the top of my head..

- Vitale dropped a 5 yard first down.
- Njoku dropped a 25 yarder up the seam for a first down.
- Louis dropped a 50 yard bomb.
- Njoku couldn't get his feet in bounds on a touchdown.
- We had a 37 yard completion for a first down called back on a phantom hold.
- Treggs dropped a 12 yarder for a first down.
- Devalve fumbed a first down, returned for a touchdown.

Right there, alone, we're looking at 130 yards and a TD, not to mention a bunch of plays that would have kept the drive going, and that's missing plenty that my brain just couldn't emotionally handle.

Coleman and Gordon can't come back quickly enough. I hate to say it, but I'm done with Louis. I can handle a rookie struggling with the drops, it happens, but he's had too much time to get it right. Enough is enough.

That was gutting. This should have been a monster game for Kizer, but the garbage surrounding him is hitting new lows in incompetence.

Kizer played much better today. I think the bye week was huge for him.

He was poised, made some good throws, threw it a bit quicker, and ran the ball well. He made mistakes, but overall, he showed genuine progress.

We were a mess w/Kessler in there.

We gotta start making more catches. Each week, we see all these "highlight" catches from around the league and we are constantly dropping catchable passes.

Bottom line: Kizer was much better today and he has a chance.