DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Haslam Decision Time

I think some of us are getting too caught up with the record.. Obviously it sucks.. but honestly.. I don't care if we go 2-30 over these past two seasons, if the outcome is a longevity as one of the league's better teams, and ultimately a super bowl.. 1 Super Bowl easily trumps 20 years of sadness in my eyes.

We get the unrighteous benefit of all these stats of 'since 99' because that's when we came back in the league. Whats the rush on hitting the eject button on a coaching staff who can motivate their guys to play hard no matter what? That's no easy task! Most players would have checked out early on all of our previous coaches. Let these guys get some more time to right this ship bc Hue is a good coach. He'll get it done.

Next year will be the difference maker.

Agree wholeheartedly. Complete reboot, I think a lot of us can be guilty of too much optimism on record. I'm in that boat also. We are adding talent, but clearly need more and the fixing of the units are incremental (receivers and dbs need more work!)

Folks ain't sleeping on us. Big Ben made a statement of not wanting to play us later in the season. Lions player gave us props today.

TBH after years of 3 and 4.win seasons, why have these 2 seasons been so terriibad if we are building towards sustained success? Keep the 3 and 4 win seasons, I'll wear zero wins to see where this plays out. JMO

I don't think the FO has clean hands in this.

The WR group is weak to say the least. In their defense, you can't predict Coleman breaking his hand, and while Britt wasn't a 4 star pick-up, nobody coule see how far down the ladder this guy fell. It's hard to predict desire.

The FO also blew it by letting Haden walk. He would still be our best DB. I think that move caused ripples. All of a sudden, Williams had to cover that spot. I think that move is a big reason why we see Peppers playing the way he does rather than where he needs to be. We didn't see that in the preseason.

We let him go because of mony. OK, I can buy that. We also speng 16 mil to get a 2nd rounder for Brock. If spending 16 mil for a 2nd rounder is worth it, isn't spending much the same worth winning a few extra games? To me it is.

I will probably up my season tickets for next year, but we better show something down the stretch and for sure need to show something next year. All along Haslam was talking about 2018 as when we should be competing. As of now it isn't looking all that good, but it isn't impossible.

That's fair, peen. But, I still think Pluto was not using Hue's quotes fairly. I don't think Hue was ripping the FO. I think Hue was taking responsibility and protecting his players. I think it was a classless move by Pluto.

I find it amazing that so many people can care about the same thing like a family member. Witness the exact same thing every Sunday as well as all the discussions throughout the week, but still see things so differently.

I love the passion on this site.

What I see is a FO/ HC who inherited a God Awful franchise, that had screwed up draft pick after draft pick for over a decade. A franchise that went through FO's & coaching staffs like toilet paper since '99. And now, less than 2 years at the helm we expect to be better than we were 3 years ago.

For the record, we had a great thing going with Kyle Shannahan! His offense got us to a 7-2 record with Brian Hoyer as QB, and a defense that could not stop a HS team on third down. Then somebody thought to give the reigns to JFB in December....WTF. After losing the final 7 games Shannahan had saw enough of this debacle and asked for his release. At that point Haslem should have fired everyone and offered a kings ransom to Shannahan to be the head coach. I guarantee it would have saved us from RGIII.

This FO is still in the midst of cleaning up 16 years of futility. Unfortunately for Hue Jackson his face is in the front of it. That is the reality of this mess. If Haslem can see how bad things were, he must know to keep this together for one more year.

I think this FO is doing a solid job. I also think that they thought they would have multiple outstanding options at QB in this years draft. I feel that the plan was to build a solid foundation by turning this roster around with younger more athletic football players and then having their pick of the litter in the 2018 draft. Unfortunately it seems as the great QB's who were going to be at the top of the draft have all regressed. Darnold, Rosen and Allen all looked better last year.

Nobody knows what talent translates in the NFL. PERIOD!!!!
Hindsight is 20/20 and as good as I thought Carson Wentz was, I would have never imagined what he is doing now. I honestly wanted Watson at 12. Based on what he did in consecutive games against Alabama, he clearly showed that he had it! Unlike any QB I had seen in sometime in college football, but I defenitely feel that they liked Darnold and were willing to make the trade and go all in on the 2018 draft.

This may have hurt, but as a consolation prize we picked up a developmental QB with all the numbers and athleticism fans want to see. unfortunately he is extremely green and without a solid veteran we were forced to throw Kizer to the wolves. Kizer has not been perfect, but he has improved. He will have a game or two where he regresses a bit, but he will also continue to grow and hopefully develop into a great leader as well as a darn good QB.

I feel this FO has done everything pretty well except find the QB that this franchise needs. The only decision that I was against was letting Haden go. Other than that, I feel they have drafted better than any FO since '99 as well have laid a foundation of young athletic football players, stockpiled a number of draft picks which means more young athletic football players, and a ton of cap space. Without a doubt, this FO has stuck to their plan and are doing well.

It has been stated on multiple times by JH and the FO that 2018 is the goal to be relevant. The problem is, that we have fans who are desperate for wins as they have been so few and far between for almost 2 decades. We need to stop blaming this FO and coaching staff for years of atrocious football. Understand what we have and stay the course. Things will get better.

Vers, I feel Hue is an outstanding coach, I hope we keep him. But, I would love to see more out of our running game and more play action passes. The two go hand in hand, and if you can't commit to the run, PA passes will not open up.

Now, without a QB looking like the overwhelming #1 option in the draft, what should we do????? Personally, I love the 2 DB's from FSU, S & CB. But, do we spend both high picks on defense without addressing our QB situation? Do we acquire McCarron? Any chance we can land Cousins?? Who Knows? Not me.

I explained to my cousin who also is a huge Browns fan, that until we are relevant again, I can no longer wear my emotions on my sleeve on Sunday's. I watch weekly, make observations. Get excited from time to time, but try very hard to not get upset. This has more to do with the last 2 decades of Browns football than the current 1-24 debacle we find ourselves in now. I am sure I am not the only one on this board, but I am not allowed to watch Browns games in public. I am ridiculously loud as is my dad who is right by my side every Sunday. I would love to be cheering positives instead of cussing at the negatives, but this franchise just does not allow it.

GO BROWNS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You make good points DawgPound75.

But the current FO is screwing up draft pick after draft pick just like the past FOs. List the receivers they've brought in via draft and free agency. And, most importantly, look at the QB situation. It's not any better, if not worse, than what some of the other FOs produced.

It makes me not want any of them having final say on the roster. I'm not calling for their heads, but I whole-heartedly hope that whoever has final say on the roster next offseason isn't in the house yet.

Actually Peen, a LOT of us knew about Britt. He had one bad season after another until last year. How many players fail until season eight in their careers and people don't see that as an anomaly? Especially at WR.

I do not agree about screwing up draft pick after draft pick. I do not think they have been perfect, but I feel they have been better than most since '99.

I feel we have not seen enough to say for certain. As WR go, I feel that this franchise has drafted 2 good receivers in 18 years... Kevin Johnson and Braylon Edwards, and I am reaching on Edwards. The verdict is not out on Coleman but when on the field he has shown flashes. I would like to put Gordon on the list but he has been as disappointing as any player we have had due to his baggage. If Coleman can stay healthy and begin to produce at a consistent level, I think they have done OK in that department. I will say that the jury is still out on that one. I liked J. Payton more than R. Louis, but Louis has shown improvement this year over last and as has been pointed out, he is having as productive as a season as T. Pryor.

I do believe I was clear in my statement about the QB situation. But overall the last 2 drafts have been remarkably better than previous regime's. Possibly it is because of the number of picks, but there are a number of young players contributing at the highest level.

2016- C. Coleman (injured but productive), Ogbah, Shoebert, Nassib, Drango, Devalve and Kindred have all looked much better this year than last. If they continue to show progress and get better, they will all be better than average.

I will say that the WR's were not great, but they were all 4th round picks or lower. Higgins and Louis have shown flashes. but it is a steep learning curve in the NFL for mid round receivers.

2017- Garrett = STUD, Njoku is extremely young but the dude is a freak, Peppers i will admit he is a question mark at this point. Kizer is extremely young and I feel we are 2 years away from seeing what we have in him, but there is no denying his potential. Ogujobi looks like the real deal. Brantley could be a solid contributor in the next 2 years. I was not high on Gonzolez until I saw how average some very good kickers were during their rookie years.

If Wilson, Dayes and R. Johnson can develop at the same rate Drango, S. Coleman and Kindred did, I think our FO has done a lot better than many on this board have given them credit for.

OK, Coleman, when healthy. Can't wait to see that.
Heckert brought Gordon on board. And, like you said, BAGGAGE. If he finally stays clean and produces, sure, I'll praise this regime for giving him another shot.
The rest are just guys. And they're barely cutting it when not sucking.
The talent we've let go, Gabriel and Benjamin, was better.

Travis Benjamin has 19 receptions this year. His best season was with the Browns in 2016. At that time we had Gabriel, Hawkins and Benjamin. IMHO they were all 3 very similar players. As I understand it, it was Hue who wanted Hawkins. I also would have liked to keep Travis B. but I don't think he is the playmaker you are making him out to be.

I believe Gabriel benefited from being on a great team with a great scheme.
His numbers are down now that Shannahan has left. Neither Gabriel or Benjamin is having a good year. Both will probably end up between 40-50 catches. 600-750 yards & 5 TD's. Both of which are playing with great QB's.

I'll compare their stats, including drops, to what we have after the season ends.

I think your numbers are a little crossed.

Hawkins came in 2014. Benjamin had a good year in 2015.

In 2015, with Hawkins, Benjamin and Gabriel I remember hearing so many people talk about how short and untalented our receivers were.... now people want them back. Interesting.


Our receivers may not be the best, but our QB play isn't doing them any favors.

I hit the wrong number.
Benjamin had a very good year in 2015.

But as was said, he, Gabriel & Hawkins were very similar players.
I also remember Benjamin muffing a couple of punt returns that season.

Hindsight is 20/20 and it would have been wise to keep either Be jamin or Gabriel if we had known Hawkins was going to be cut the following year. But I believe Hawkins was kept due to his veteran leadership as well as his relationship with Hue.

How productive has Coleman been? Seriously. I remember one good game and a bunch of "blah" games. Maybe I'm wrong. Can you elaborate w/his stats to show us how "productive" he has been?

Unlike some posters, I am not saying he is a bust. However, I think he has been hurt a lot, has dropped easy passes, runs poor routes, hasn't made many big plays, and has not been very productive.

I would say that he has been "disappointing" thus far.

I'll go ahead and say it for you.

He's a bust.

I don't expect anything at all from him.

You can't call him a bust. Way too early.

I was just questioning the claim about how productive he's been. I don't think he has been productive. He's been disappointing.

Hopefully, he turns it around.

I can't find an argument against anything you wrote. Some of it has been the play of our QBs, and I think his injuries have slowed his development because WRs usually need time, but he, as you said, has been mostly a disappointment.

For sure Coleman has been a huge disappointment ... with that said I am one of the few who still have very big hopes for the kid. I really think he can be a true impact player if he stays healthy. This year he had a at least one game where he was making plays and catching tough balls.... It's as much hope as anything right now. He's been so injury prone that it's hard to really know what his ceiling or floor is.

It really depends on your perspective. If you’re the Cleveland Clinic, Coleman is a a valued member of the team.

I had to go check.

Coleman had 1 game w/5 catches for 53 yards. Another w/1 catch for 9 yards. And a third w/0 catches for 0 yards.

He did have one TD, though.

I don't see a ton of production.

Let me go look at last year's "production." Here are his yardage totals:

1. 69
2. 104
3. 41
4. 17
5. 39
6. 38
7. 26
8. 24
9. 15
10. 40

Still looks like one "productive" game to me.

If Coleman could stay healthy, we might know something. But he can't.

I just looked at his stats. He had a bad year in 13 and 15 wasn't very good. The others(when not hurt) are much better. As I said, he wasn't a 4 star signing, but on the whole he was a pretty decent player. This drop is beyond what could have been expected.

Maybe the TB pre-season game....

I think he looked much better in pre-season,but hard to tell if that translates into the regular season, specially if the problem with a player is the lack of athleticism, intensity and physicality.

I guess to sum it up for me would be to say that once a WR reaches his eighth or ninth year in the NFL, I would expect production to go down, not up.And so far that's exactly what I've seen. But yeah, the bottom fell out pretty quickly.

Vers.. from the TP thread...

"Good post Vers.

I think the reason you don't see more blame put on the FO is for the simple reason that most people understand that losing was going to be a byproduct of this rebuild. And so many arguments that appear to be giving them a pass, or maybe not as critical as some believe it should be already take that in to consideration and so someone like me just doesn't see the need to rehash that.


I have another point I'd like to make about the FO and Hue.. in deference to the topic of this thread, I'm going to move it over to the Halsam decision thread.."

The FO: I think they underestimated the probability of being able to win on "any given Sunday". I really think that the numbers told them that we could/should be able to win 4-5 games. I also think that the math is probably right! Which is why they seemed genuinely shocked just how bad last season was. I don't view this as incompetence. I see it as an incomplete model. Not only are the variables on how to win or lose a game astronomical, but add in the fact that we have a history of finding truly unique ways to lose every year? LOL

I DO think this FO needs an addition to it's group, NOT a GM though. Someone who has the time and capability to identify the intangible things that are important to winning, concepts such as leadership, game momentum, the effect crowds have, etc. Someone who when they get a see a player can offer more to Sashi than "I have a feeling".. someone who can articulate that "feeling".

In a similar vein, in regards to Hue, my only real criticism of him is that I think he's bitten off more than he can chew. I think there's a part of him that didn't realize just how monumental of a task this truly is, and I think he's also accepted more on his plate than he should. At the beginning of the season I didn't think an OC was needed, now I've come around. Seeing how much time Hue has to spend with the QB, I wonder if game time he gets a little more caught up in analyzing the QB play and therefor isn't as engaged with the overall picture? Now just how much of a role that OC would play? I don't know that it really matters to me. I don't think bringing in an OC to run his own thing would be a good idea. I would be fine with someone internally stepping in to that role officially, or just to spit ball, bring a guy like Flip back to learn and develop under Hue. I'm not an X's ad O's guy, but I think Flip's scheme was somewhat similar to what Hue wants to run. It's just an idea.

In any event, anyone high profile that we do bring in I believe is going to be an addition, not a replacement and I don't think the power structure is going to change.


Hey, if all this works out, maybe DePo will get another movie made about him LOL

Browns owner Haslam meets with players about rebuilding effort


This past Monday, Browns owners Jimmy and Dee Haslam met with their players en masse to offer support and context, while also detailing their thoughts on the trying season, sources say.

It was not the first time the Haslams have met with the team, having done so as it related to the anthem controversy and other issues. But this talk was memorable in particular because of the message.

Essentially, the Haslams told the players they knew rebuilding would take time and while everyone wants to win, their work and effort down the stretch was appreciated. The wins haven't come, but the owners wanted the players to know that this a process.

The Haslams have been realistic about how much time it can take to go from last to respectable to a winning program. And while the players don't necessarily want to hear that -- they are competitive, losing has been frustrating -- the owners wanted to reassure them that their fight has not gone unnoticed.

For players in that locker room, it's been tough. Many appreciated the talk, while others are just sick of losing and no pep talk would have mattered. The Haslams implored their players to continue to give the same effort down the stretch.

In general, it has not been an easy season in Cleveland to say the least. Or two seasons. One win (1-24) in the Sashi Brown/Hue Jackson regime will do that. There clearly has been frustration exhibited inside the building, and that's natural. Some moments -- the failed AJ McCarron trade, for one -- have led to expected angst.

Toward the end of the season, there will be more important meetings. The Haslams have remained supportive of Jackson, who was among the top 10 highest-paid coaches when he was hired. But he has also watched the team get torn down to the ground to rebuild, more so than anyone expected.

And while the team has collected draft picks like no one else, they have also watched franchise QBs pass them by, notably the Eagles' Carson Wentz.

The belief is, with an eye toward 2018, that Jackson will want some say in the collaborative effort of picking players. It's not that he wants more power -- he agreed upon the power structure when he signed on and is fine with it. He's seen coaches thrive in similar power structures, notably Marvin Lewis with the Bengals.

But Jackson is believed to want to have his voice heard alongside executives such as Brown, Andrew Berry, Paul DePodesta and others. As they look toward 2018 and try to build and improve, no one wants to repeat the mistakes of the past that allowed possibly great QBs to stroll by them. The personnel staff does have them positioned to make an impact in 2018, with five picks in the first two rounds of the draft and ample cap space.

The week began with an important discussion led by the owners. After the season ends, the key decision makers on the Browns will have plenty more important talks.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000...building-effort

The general tone I get from reading this is that everyone is expected to stay. The article seems to speak to the future and it doesn't mention changes in staff from the FO or coaching staff. At least that's how I interpret it.

What I don't like reading is Hue wanting more say in personnel. I think that is a bad idea.

I don't know how much input Hue has at the moment - so hard to say if having a voice among many or more of a voice among many would be good or bad. . . . I have heard/read that if Hue wanted Wentz then the FO would have taken him. That's a miss. I've also read Hue would have taken Malik Hooker at 12 who would seemingly have been a much better pick than what we got.

Agree that if taken at face value that the Haslams sound like they are vested in the long term program with the FO and Hue - hopefully. I think a 3rd year might see some really good things if we can figure the QB position out.... I'm really hoping against hope we can pick up Cousins or Alex Smith.

If the Haslam's don't realize the vacuum in the talent evaluation Dept. , then we surly are doomed !

We sort QB and dominoes will fall for us. The D is a couple of DBs from being a very good unit. If we get the old Flash back - man - next year could see a real turn. Lots of ifs and buts but I hope we keep Hue, we keep going and follow through on this plan.

I believe Hue has a say in QBs. I think that has been documented before. But I read the article and the source suggesting Hue wants more leverage in players beyond QB. I don't think that this a good idea. At all. And it's not because I completely distrust Hue with players he likes, although it's a factor, I just don't like coaches trying to get more power in personnel decisions. It clearly has not worked here in the past and not many situations have been fruitful long-term outside of a few. I'd rather Hue focus on being a better HC.

I agree with you on the Wentz, as well as Hooker, takes. Plus, a recent article from MKC citing a course that says the Manning rumors aren't true leads me to believe they stay with everyone for at least another year. I think that is the right course.

Hadn't heard this previously. Classier than some past folks who jammed people, coaches, and players under the bus. At least 'classier' FWIW. Doesn't change record or mistakes, but it is showing a learning curve.

I imagine that depends on how much more 'say' that he wants. I am fine with Hue having input, but draw the line at decision-making. However, I would fully expect that Hue already has significant input in player personnel...

Incredible ...

U guys want to leave the final decision up to a LAWYER ... BRILLIANT ... ...

Thank god u guys aren’t in charge ... to bad the thief may not be any better at than u are ...

#MAKES NO F’N SENSE AT ALL ....

Yep, it is sounding like he plans to leave everyone in place, but he is interviewing people for something. I can't see Singletary being interviewed for FO work though. I can't figure out what the plan is.

What happens if they keep everybody,

Have a good draft

and start out 0-10 again next season?

I have a feeling that Hue Jackson wants control over who makes the 53. We had some cuts and decisions at the beginning of the year that seemed mighty controversial. I wonder if that's what this is about.