DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Kizer rnd. 4

Its one of the problems with STATS in football when it comes to things like this ... its so SUBJECTIVE and that’s proven by the fact this dude says 30 total and the other site said Louis only has 3 .... that just shows how different the criteria is that is used on what a drop is ...

Then when u define your criteria .... for my example I’ll use the “if it hits the receivers hands” as the criteria ... three plays jump right out at me ....

1. The slant he threw to Britt ... it was behind him and it was a laser ... Britt had ZERO SHOT to catch that ... ZERO ... it hit his hands ...

2. He threw one to Duke near the LOS ... maybe even behind it ... it ended up a pick ... he threw it low and out on front of him ... duke lunged/dove for it ... when off his hand ... it was a deflection and thats all Duke could have done is deflect it ... but it hit his hands ...

On those two ... NO WAY in hell were hey drops .. NONE ..

This dude use common sense and not include them in the drops category? ... no way would I or anyone that has any common sense about football ... no clue if this dude did or not ... IF he did .. IMO it makes his stats as USELESS and dude that says Louis has 3 all year ..

3. The deep pass to Louis down the sideline ....

Going by the hit the hands criteria it was a drop ... and that was a BUETIFUL PASS BTW ...

The ball went right though Loius’s hands ... reason for that was the DB had Loius’s right arm on lock down just enough to keep him from right hand from getting it close enough to the left hand to create the pocket to catch the ball ...

It hit is hands but once again NO WAY should that have been a drop ...

Thats where common sense comes in ... it wasn’t a “drop” IMO but it also was a GREAT PASS ... Kizer should not have been dinged for it either ... just one of those plays ...

This stuff is so subjective ....

Going by the stats the dude BDU cited ... we have 30 drops ... well if he used those 3 plays as drops ... thats 10% of the drops that IMO there is NO WAY IN HELL they were drops ...

Maybe over the next couple weeks we all keep track of drops while we’re watching (those of us that can still stomach watching ... *LOL*) ....

It would be a fun exorcise to show just how subjective it is ....

Let me know if anyone’s game for that ....

If I could ever watch an entire game before getting so disgusted I go do dumb stuff, like dishes or workout or something - I'd be game lol. But I'd probably miss those late 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarter droppsies lol...

Diam, although you make some sense, we should never take the numbers by themselves. We can discount some of the drops, but the numbers are there.

Take Kizer's pick on the end of the game, was it Kizer's fault, did the receiver run the route? How many incompletions are the receivers fault and not the QB?


I've been paying attention to the WR's for ages, and one thing is undeniable, completion % and drops are a WR trait, and for the most part, even more than the QB.

With bad QB's you have Wrs with higher completion % and lower drops. And even when this Wr's change Qb's this numbers stay relatively the same.

A good Wr is a good Wr, and a bad Qb is a bad QB, QB and WR performance are related but they are not the same.

Our receivers are bad, no matter if the QB is good or bad.

I also think that our receivers are wrong for Hue's type of game... but that's a whole different subject.

I agree with most of those comments. You know who is a Hue type of WR when he is healthy and playing anywhere above 50% of his ability? JG. I think that's a match made in heaven if things can go right for a season and a half for the Browns and JG keeps his head on.

Anyone watch the Thursday night game?? I thought Mariota was going to stud out this year the way Wentz has .... man he looked like hot garbage - but I also still believe he can be a good QB in the NFL. Watching MM struggle last night sort of gave me some hope for Kizer. Hoping for another good performance from DK this week against a real good D.

Problem is if we force the ball to JG,like we did last time, and instead of progressing we regress.

Also the problem is if we didn't draft a JG type of player, because JG was still a possibility...

I don't like JG, and I think we are going to regret accepting him back, even or specially if he is successful.

I will rather lose without JG than winning with him. That's how strongly I think about this.

After cutting so many players for rebuilding purposes, we make room for the worst person we had in here in several years. Makes me sick, honestly....

I'll play.

What we did last time when JG returned was moronic. That wasn't Hue was it?? Yeah - we better have a better game plan. But JG ability to get deep and adjust and go get the ball is going to be a big difference and help out Kizer who hasn't had many balls where the WR helped him out on an errant throw.

Can’t disagree with a thing u said ...

I NEVER use numbers to make a point ... EVER ...

I coined the phrase ... STATS ARE FOR ..... cause most MISUSE them and in football .. the VARIABLES are 100% UNCONTROLLABLE and the sample size is way to small ....

Then theres the manipulation of stats ... like with what BDU did in Kizer3 thread ... he added running TD’s to his TD/Int ratio .... its hard to intercept a ball on a run play ... ...

Never have been a fan of STATS ... especially the way there used on this board ...

The drops is an interesting topic and very subjective ... hence why i would like for at least 4 or 5 of us to count drops over the next couple weeks and discuss them ....

That seems worthwhile to me and Vers so far .. hopefully a few more will play ...

I'll do it. Or, at least try.

I'll make a note of who, and when. We can then compare numbers after the game to see if we agree, etc.

I'll try and recall the drops, kids permitting.

Ya ... get as much detail as u can ... someone can start a thread in the game day forum ... no sense cluttering this thread with it ... or we can do it on here ... don’t matter to me ...

Not sure if i’m Traveling for one of my nephews soccer tourny’s this weekend .. if i do ... i won’t watch it til Sunday night or Monday ... i won’t even come to the site til i’ve Watched the entire thing so i’m Not influenced by others ...

Regardless of what we all think about Kizer being named the starter this last game against a tough defense he was playing a LOT better. His game speed improved tremendously come to before the bye week. His ball placement was also greatly improved and as you know that is one of the key things I evaluate in a QB because to ME it's one of the most important skills a QB has to have.

As Kizer improved so to did our WRs. I think some of you don't actually understand how hard it is for an NFL WR to catch a ball when they are out of sync with the QB. They have to be able to feel that ball coming before they ever see it and trust that it's going to be there on the break. WRs are sometimes forced to catch the ball blind the same way QBs sometimes just have to throw the ball blind and trust the WR to be where he is supposed to be to catch it.

I think it's way too early for folks to write off our WR's and QB's. They are all so young and been with each other for such a short amount of time. Our WRs like Ricardo are just now starting to show some confidence with Kizer.

I humbly ask that you guys just give these very young players a chance to develop more before turning against them so quickly. This is still a year they should be growing and learning without huge expectations. I think good things will start to happen by the end of the season and many of you want be so worried. Just be patient a little longer guys =)

When a player does this ...he dropped the ball

I would suggest starting a new thread in Pure Football entitled "Dropped Passes." I say this because if you put it in the Game Day forum, that particular thread will disappear in a week.

It would be best to have it in Pure Football because it would eliminate the revisionist history that is so prevalent on message boards.

Heck, we could even chart how many passes that Kizer throws that are uncatchable. Might need a calculator, but.........Just kidding.

Me 2. For BOTH teams.

I'm down

Good point about putting it in here vs the game day forum ...

Good ideas about a dropped passes thread and also including uncatchable passes .....

My sister in law decided to go to Charleston for the soccer tourny ... so I’ll be around ... i’ll be carting my older two nephews to work and back and hanging with my brothers dog at their house .. they don’t have the ticket so I probably won’t watch the game til Sunday night ...

Feel free to start the thread when ever one of u guys want ... I’ll chime in Sunday night or Monday AM ...

.

Great point tabber .... great point ...

Hopefully u play ..

Kizer Rnd 4.

Was Kizer ever meant to be the long term answer.

Or was Kizer the only viable one that fell into your lap in the 2nd or 3rd round, because

Because McCown was 1-11 and looked like he'd be 1-11 again, for his 3rd time.

Because RG3 wasn't going to be anything

Because Cody Kessler was looking a lot more like Charlie Frye (bad) than Derek Anderson (one good stretch).

And you had to get somebody, (anybody) for the upcoming year as the place for impact, (any kind of impact) players to be found in the 2016 draft, was winding down.

So was Kizer ever meant to be the Long Term option, or just grasping at straws as you fall off the Mountain?


I think it's the 2nd. So even though I didn't like Kizer, (PRE-THE PRE SEASON)

But ever since I've seen Kizer, (I've been impressed with his abilities and think he can be a decent option, and clearly a better Arm than I thought, and with about 2 or so years to develop would be a pretty good Qb to have around)

Even thought that^^^

I still think you need to go BPA, Best Player Available, and for me at this point

Just like last year, I'd say, oh sure it was DeShaun Watson, (all those bowl game performances and two college playoff runs)
This year

This year I'd say Baker Mayfield, because of his better completion percentage, and surely good bowl performances that will come up.

If you see a good player, you don't need to "wait and see" , I'm just sayin.

Browns better, yes, I like Kizer, , I think I'd like Mayfield Better.


I want both in camp, Next offseason. (It takes most any draft pick 2.5 years, or more to pan out)

so:

WAS KIZER EVER MEANT TO BE THE LONG TERM OPTION?

That's my question for "Kizer Rnd. 4".

I don't know if DK was considered the long term answer when he was drafted but before his last college season he was considered by some draft experts as a high 1st round pick if he was going to come out. His last year at ND messed that up a little but he was projected as a 1st rd. talent.

He'll put 0 drops every week. LOL

Well, he had a solid game last week, hopefully he builds on that.

He has shown resilience, appreciate it.

I agree. I want to see him continue to develop. He shows more upside than any QB we've had in a long time.

Yes.

I think we often find ourselves turning up our nose at any quarterback who wasn't selected top 10, much less not selected in the first round. However, the 52nd overall selection is still a big deal. It is a heavy investment in a player that you don't use unless you have a high level of faith that said player can be a long-term contributor to your team.

I also think that Kizer has impressed everyone in recent weeks, and does have plenty of time to avoid the addition of another signal caller. Hue Jackson, in particular, has done a total 180. The biggest thing for Kizer seems not to be his play itself, but the blatantly obvious improvements in his play. There is not one single part of his game that one could say hasn't improved. That's exciting for any coach to see, and Kizer's mentality seems genuinely admired throughout the building - didn't lose faith during the benching, handled it professionally, has continued working tremendously hard. Hue Jackson was saying on CB.com this week that even his leadership is coming along in leaps and bounds.

I don't think Kizer was taken in the traditional sense of a top 5 selection - he is our guy and we will build around him for years to come with patience. I think he was a guy the team felt had an incredible amount of talent but needed more refinement than anyone else. Kizer is starting to show that refinement, and he's trending in the right direction towards the end of the season.

The bottom line - he was always seen as a long-term answer, but he really needs to prove over the course of the season that there is a future there.

Imagine if Kiser had went to the Steelers who I thought was hoping to draft him. He wouldn't have played unless an injury to Ben so he could have sat and watched for a couple years. I am sure glad he's on the Browns. Give him time. He's coming along.

I'm not at all convinced Hue or the FO is sold or know what they have in Kizer - and they see him every day in practice and in the film room ....

I don't think he was drafted as a sure fire future franchise QB - I think the plan was to grab either Trub or Mahomes ... and that went south. When they passed on Watson at #12 - I don't believe for a second they had a plan or thought to get their QB answer in last year's draft. I think that Kizer fell far enough that he represented good value and a 'worth a shot' pick.

All jmo - Like everyone if Kizer can be the guy it really helps us. If he can develop a little and continue to show what he did last week vs the Titans, it'd be reason for hope. Jags D is going to be a really huge test for him.

Good thoughts and I agree that he fell to them so they thought he was worth a chance in the 2nd. I feel his decision making will get better with experience and coaching. Hue has not coddled him and to his credit he has not went into a shell. I keep thinking how he would do in Pittsburgs offense with all the weapons they have.
Kiser has things you can't teach like toughness, arm strength and mobility. I am not sold on anyone in next years draft and would like to see Hue continue working with Kiser and get him some receivers. I am hoping but not counting on Gordon and Coleman.

I missed a handful of plays today but saw 95% of the game. I saw three drops. I Louis, Coleman and Duke I think. However - in tough conditions against a really good D - Kizer looked like hot garbage.

Glw - while I agree on some of those intangibles. The thing I see lacking at this point is NFL QB instincts/brain power.

Last throw of the game seemed to sum up everything for me. Sure it was garbage time - but he throws it 8 feet behind Louis who is going across the middle.

I want Kizer to succeed just like most everybody else here, but this game, against the Jags? I'd grade him about a D/D-. So far? He just doesn't have it. And besides Coleman? Our receivers are not helping.

I thought Kizer had one really good game this season so far, against the Lions...but that's about it.

First draft pick better be a QB, or draft a good veteran. Or both. IMHO

Hue Jackson said he's sticking with DeShone Kizer the rest of the way to make sure he knows what the young QB is all about.

J/C

To Kizer's credit, their defense is unspeakably good. That's the same defense Roethlisberger threw 5 interceptions against last month. Same defense that held Dalton to 136 yards three weeks ago. At the beginning of the season, they held Flacco to 8/18 for 28 yards and 2 interceptions. Kizer was the toughest AFC North QB they've seen this year.

I know I defend Kizer a lot, but he played better against the Jags than most quarterbacks have this season. It's not like he turned in this performance against scrubs. He played at a higher level than most quarterbacks they've spat out.

It was disappointing all around. I can't say for certain yet who played bad and who was forced in to a bad game by a great team, but my initial reaction isn't the one I want.

On the bright side, Kizer is a different quarterback with Coleman in. I felt like some of his mistakes were him forcing the issue to try and get it to Coleman. That first pick was only ever going to Coleman. That second pick was open underneath but I wonder if he hesitated because he wanted Coleman on P2 but didn't trust his instincts to get the ball out under.

I feel the same way Pastor. He seems like it’s one step forward and two back with this kid.

It was not a good game for Kiser today I have to admit. It was also a bad game for our o-line. We had no running game and Kiser had pressure like he hadn't seen before. Kiser missed bad on some throws and stared down his receivers on several. That has to improve if he is going to ever be successful. I do want to see if he can improve the rest of the year. It's up to him. With his physical skills and toughness if he can improve on accuracy and decision making he will be a good one. If not we will keep looking.

j/c:

I hate to do this, but the biggest reason we lost today was because of two reasons:

#2: Our receivers suck. They don't get much separation and drop too many passes.

#1: Kizer was horrid. Held the ball way too long. Had running lanes and instead threw wounded ducks into coverage. His long windup telegraphs throws. Had no pocket presence. Was inaccurate yet again. Dude was beyond terrible today.