DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Crowell vs. D. Johnson

It was.

peen, I think the reason Crow is playing and that Dayes isn't comes down to one thing. Crow is a better RB than Dayes is.

I know that a lot of people don't like Crow on this board. However, I think their evaluation of him is wrong. Teams are aggressively scheming to stop the run and are daring our rookie qb and trash receivers to beat them through the air.

If you look at the one game where both Crow and Duke had good games on the ground [Detroit] you will notice that we got an early lead and hit a couple of downfield passes. The Lions had to honor the pass and our running game opened up.

I don't think Crow is a great RB, but I think he is a good back. He has a good burst through the hole, can make himself skinny, has deceptive speed, and very good vision.

This team has a ton of holes, but RB isn't one of them.

j/c

I would cut Crow yesterday so Hue couldn't give him the ball anymore.

Crow hits the hole hard and fast when the hole is right in front of him and is large enough to drive a truck through it. His lateral movement is non-existent. Crow has zero vision unless it's to a hole right in front of him and right where the play was designed.

When we need a yard, he is the last guy Hue should give the ball to...no giant hole = no productivity.

I can't recall ever seeing a more disinterested RB in a Browns uniform.

Duke has a real edge here IMO. I have been impressed with some of his pass blocks against much bigger blitzers. Stuck his nose in and stood tall.

Crow seems to have an edge in reading the hole wrong if he finds it and running into blockers.
I like Duke. Maybe he could be our hybrid/slot/wing back. Seems like a Byner Mack combo without Mack. Just frustrating. Don't run enough, too basic, too little success, and then we hand the game to our QB and receivers (droppers?).

Go, Browns.

He has very good vision ... i dont see that at all ...

U know what i think of Crow .. with that said ...

i don’t believe his numbers this year are on him ... he hasn’t had any place to run on way to many plays ... a lot of it is not his fault ...

But to say that one of his strengths is good vision must mean running into the back of your OLman is the definition of good vision ... *L* ...

I think he has HORRIBLE VISION and thats one of his biggest problems ... other than his “attitude” ... IMO his 2nd biggest issue very well may be his vision ....

Maybe we can watch some tape and u can show me what i’m missing ... not being a jerk ... i respect your knowledge of the game and i just don’t see that ... i very well may be missing something and would like to know what it is ...

The music sucks, but if you have the patience to watch it, check out his vision on the second level.

Thanks for the warning .... i just turned the volume down ... *L* ...

He showed good vision on the 2nd level and on outside runs ... never really noticed that .. thanks ....

What about plays up the middle at the 1st level ... he’ll literally run right into the back of his OLman when u can see a crease just to the OLmans right or left .. all he has to do is make a slight cut to his left or right and he’d gain at least a few more yards but he just runs into the back of the OLman ... its very FRUSTRATING and that’s what lead me to say he has bad vision ...

Can u help me out on that one and tell me what I’m missing ... at the 1st level he takes being a straight ahead runner way to LITERALLY ... *L* ...

Don't misunderstand, I am not calling for Dayes to start over Crow. I just wonder why at this point in the season Dayes hasn't carried the ball more. In looking at his stats, he has 4 carries. None since maybe week 3.

I know what you are talking about. Not really arguing that. I didn't expound on my comment the first time around, but I was picturing runs in my head as I was typing. I remembered many plays where he saw guys coming at him and made quick cuts and changed direction w/out slowing down. He would not be able to do that if he had bad vision.

Crow isn't the ground pounder we need. We need an every down back.

Duke isn't that, but he sure is a helluva playmaker,, Pay him whatever he wants.. Do NOT let him get away.

4 for 9 for 2.3 YPC. His four tries were completely fruitless. I'd say that's why we haven't seen him more.

4 carries is definetly enough of a sample size ... based on those numbers ... NO WAY DOES HE DESERVE A FIFTH ..... ...

And before u start ... i could care less weather he gets 100 carries or none the rest of the way ... my point was just that your reason is complete and utter nonsense ...

That's okay. But before you start. I could give a crap what you think.

Please....

OK ... sounds like we agree ...

I never noticed how good he was at the 2nd level as far as making cuts w/o slowing down due to good vision/anticipation ... i learned something and thats a good thing ....

Thanks ....

Like I said, he's not great, but he isn't as bad as many make him out to be. Our RBs are not the issue. It's a nice 1-2 combo. If we had a decent passing game, our backs would look a lot better.

With that said, I'm pretty sure he'll be gone. It will just be yet another hole to fill on a team that already has too many holes.

And thats fine ... it is still america, not sure for how much longer but for now it is ... *L* ...

IN THIS CASE ... it just shows your IGNORANCE on this issue if u think that 4 carries is enough of a sample size to warrant giving him no more chances ..

If your good with that ... so am i ...

Enjoy your turkey day my fellow dawg ...

Please what ... whatever your point was it went way over my dumb ass head ...

not sure what your saying please for .... im pretty sure its not asking me for something ... *LOL* ...

Before you go tossing the word ignorant around, take a minute to reflect. Peen wondered why we hadn't seen Dayes more. I basically stated we probably haven't seen him because his early carries were unproductive. I'm sorry you can't fathom that, but it's cool. Doesn't matter what I think of his sample size. You have a good Turkey day too, my friend. Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours.

Crow wont be back and he is unproductive. Time to go to the rook and find more ways to get the ball into Dukes hands.

...I don't think it is so much that he is good at the second level vision-wise as it is the fact that it is kind of hard to make a terrible decision with that much open space. He has the burst to take advantage of that open space more than great vision in my opinion. I don't see him set up blocks or string together moves which to me would be better indicators of vision than simply being able to get past one guy in space. If there are two holes on a play he seems as likely to pick the one that will take him into the back of his OL and traffic shortly after as the one that would lead to a single off balance defender in space. If you can get him to space, he is great. We haven't been able to get him there much this season.

Here's my question (my apologies if this has been answered before... I don't remember)...

Didn't Crow display good vision last year and the previous year? I don't recall him doing very many TRich impressions before this year? Can a runningback regress in his ability to find and hit the hole?

I'm not sure productivity by yardage or yds/rush is a completely fair measure.

Got on Gamepass and searched for running plays involving Dayes. Here's what I saw.

Wk1
His first carry against PIT was a second and two and he got the first down with a tough carry up the middle. Game pass lists it as out of the shotgun, but it looked more pistol as he was behind rather than beside the QB.

His second carry, we were pinned back at our own 11 on a first and 10. Pitt brought pressure and he's hit in the backfield, but slips the tackle and gets 3 yards.

His 3rd carry, it is first and goal from the 11. (I'm assuming due to a false start) In the pistol again. Duke is in the slot and completely whiffs on his block/blocks the DB into Dayes, Dayes is hit in the hole and he falls forward for a yard.

Wk 4
His one carry against Cincinnati was a sweep out of the shotgun in the redzone from 9 yards out. He made two guys miss in the backfield and got 2 yards rather than -5.


__________
He hasn't had a carry since week 4 despite getting positive yardage on plays that looked like they would be losses.

Wouldn't mind seeing more of him.

oober...........watch the video I posted. It's pretty obvious he has good vision.

I guess we don’t agree ... *L* ...

I would agree he has good vision once he gets into the open field or on sweeps ... on runs up the middle he has HORRIBLE VISION IMO ...

Thanks for the info Grimm.

So, you are saying he has good vision some of the time? LOL

I'm not saying it is, Grimm. I'm simply saying he was handed the rock a few times, it didn't go well, they stopped giving him the rock. I'm not commenting on the fairness of it, or whether he deserves another shot or not, simply that my belief as to the reason he's not getting more carries is that he didn't (or couldn't) make the most of his opportunities when he got them. That's all.

I came across this at the scouting academy. They are amatuer scouting reports done by guys studying to be scouts. They are taught by some very good former coaches like Chris Palmer, Wade Phillips, Earnest Byner.

The report on Crow was done in 2015 and seems pretty accurate.

https://www.scoutingacademy.com/Portals/0/PDFs/Isaiah%20Crowell%20Fall.pdf

What's "AA"? Area Awareness?

Athletic Ability?

You joke, but this is kinda what I'm trying to understand. How does a guy show poor vision behind the line, then good vision at the second level? How does a guy show good vision one year, then poor vision the next? Am I just mis-remembering last year's performance and he really had poor vision the whole time?

Crowell looks good in certain formations where he can get to the edge through the inside. Other than that ( unless there is a gaping hole ) he hasn't done anything all year.

Duke's sample size is a little too small for us to know for sure. His YPC could be a bit inflated because the D thinks "pass" when he is in the backfield.

I agree that Duke should be the priority to re-sign, I just don't know if he can be the every down back.

This sentence would lead me to believe it is athletic ability over awareness:

Good vision and being not-blind-at-the-second-level are not the same thing. I've been to three games this year and in every game there are plays where I am dumbfounded as to why he ran where he ran. If the gaping hole is not there, he gives up and runs into the back of an OL.

Duke manages to be a tremendously better back at gaining the tough yards for a 1st down.

Don't ask Josh Gordon.

If thats how u want to take it ... ya ... thats what i’m saying ...

When he runs up the middle theres a mass of bodies ... its cluttered ... in those situations if the hole is suppose to be between the gaurd and tackle ... if thats clogged and u can see a crease between the center and the gaurd .... he goes to where the holes suppose to be and runs into the back of the OLman as opposed to making the slight adjustment and going where the crease is ... MANY MANY other RB’s will adjust and go to where the crease is ... NOT CROW ... i’ve Never seen a RB run into the backs of his OLman more than Crow ... i realize thats a very simplistic example but its the only way i know how to articulate that on here ...

When he runs to the outside or gets to the 2nd level .. the “sight lines” aren’t near as cluttered and things are way easier to see ....

That makes sense to me ... hope it clears up my thoughts for u ...

My bad bro....I got lost in the context and quotes...I thought you were saying that 4 carries was enough of a sample size...

I have renewed faith in you.

I bow down.

I know the board has become pussified, but may I speak to you honestly? You know, like we used to talk to each other w/out getting butt hurt?

I wouldn’t want it any other way ... never had a problem taking it .... i certainly dish it out ... comes with the territory ...

SWING FOR THE FENCES BRO ... unleash the hounds ...

The refs have a tough job to do ... not sure how they’ll react ... as far as i’m concerned I wont have an issue no matter how down and dirty u get ... i wont even respond in kind ... PROMISE ..