DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Haslam Decision Time II

I'm gonna need a link for that one.

It has been reported repeatedly that Sashi has a reputation as a guy who can find consensus. My guess is he demonstrated that prior to becoming the official tie-breaker guy. He showed Haslam that he had that trait. Haslam decided better to have Sashi as that guy than Jimmy himself.

Reportedly, Hue wanted Garrett and the FO wanted Trubisky. Sashi sided with Hue. Reportedly, Hue didn't care for Watson. The Browns didn't draft Watson. Hue went on what became essentially a private workout with Wentz...he came back in love with RG3. Sashi didn't force Wentz on Hue.

Who knows where and how Depo came up with his conclusion? He's the number cruncher guy and not talent-evaluator. My guess is he took input from the talent evaluators - including Hue himself - and made a computation.

How about you address my question:

Should Sashi have over-ridden Hue and taken Wentz anyway? Thereby giving Hue a QB that Hue didn't care for?

hue lost me when he kept McCown in the game when he shoulda been in the hospital and then the dumbass ran the read option with him. He has done nothing since then to win me over.

you're very angry today

Everyone assumes when Depodesta said "we don't think Wentz is a top 20 QB" that meant those were words from the thoughts of Depodesta only while totally avoiding the "WE" part.

DePodesta is about the method and system, something I can agree could be useful, but not for the 1st round picks.

You cannot use a method to pick your top 10 picks...

Maybe with a little tweaks the system can work... Just don't draft projects in the first 2 rounds, specially on the first round, and don't pass on franchise players, QB or no QB, if there is a franchise player on the board, take him.

I would assume that we should at least include this...

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2016/04/rams_leapfrog_browns_reportedl.html

I think some believe Depodesta has more power than he actually does. I thought he was brought here for player development and strategy consulting as his title implies. I am not sure if it's anything more than that, but I really wouldn't know.

depo is probably the only one i would retain.

Jackson was the only NFL head coach who made it out to Wentz Pro Day at North Dakota State, in part because of a snowstorm that blanketed the middle of the country. He came away impressed, and not concerned about Wentz' FCS status.

"We drafted Joe Flacco (when he was in Baltimore) and he played at a small school,'' said Jackson. "So it's not about that. It's 'Can the guy play?' There's a lot of players from small schools that are playing well in the National Football League. It's about creating an environment playing great and I think we can do that.''

NFL Network's Mike Mayock, who attended and analyzed the pro day, raved about him.

"I'm more convinced than ever that he's the top quarterback in this draft,'' said Mayock. "He's 6-5, 237 and he's every bit as athletic as Andrew Luck and Cam Newton.''

I think that is your typical BS Mac. I have been pointing out that Berry was on the pro side of evaluations, not the college side. On the college side you have to be able to project how a guy will do as a pro. Once he is a pro, you don't have to project. All you have to do is figure out how he might fit in on your team.

Quit patting yourself on the back.

In all honesty, I don't know. Neither seem to be very qualified, or very qualified. I have never said Hue isn't qualified to be a head coach.

If I read you correctly, you seem to think Hue. It looks to me that you seem to forget that there have been many excellent coordinators who went on to be bad head coaches. We don't need to start nameing them...OK we can name one. Pat Shurmer. A great guy, a very good offensive coordinator, a poor head coach. We could go on and on, and not just with the Browns. I think more people have failed at being a good head coach then those who were. None of them got that chance because they weren't good at the previous job.

It works that way in business every day. The sales manager who gets fired due to poor results didn't become sales manager because they were a bad sales person. Some just can't take on the next position.

Why not bring in Hue? Ok I won't.


Why do you always bring in the Lawyer factor? It's not like a lawyer who has worked for football teams for 10 or 12 years can't learn a little about football if they look and listen.

Some of you make it seem that being a "football guy" is something only the very elite can learn.

Sashi Brown is a football guy. He gets his paycheck from a pro football team. He has for over a decade.



Ok my friend, explain to me....what exactly is a football guy? What qualifies one to be a football guy? Show me some links as to what exactly qualifies a person to be a football guy. Where does one study to be a football guy?

I'll play. It offers an interesting opportunity to go over each position and discuss how the FO & Hue have handled it.

QB McCown vs Kizer - Arguably the team would be better with McCown. Kizer has the higher upside. The grade on the QB spot is TBD. The position so far has been a carousel cluster-frak since day one with culpability shared between Hue & the FO. RGIII, Kessler, Kizer, and we're still looking. The Wentz miss was understandable. He wasn't graded that highly and hindsight is 20/20. We needed draft picks. (I know some won't agree, that's just my take on it.) I understand how they could've let Garropolo slip by, but the willingness to give up a 2nd & 3rd for McCarron is beyond ridiculous. It was a panicked, desperate move that backfired and they all look ridiculous. The resulting infighting leaves all their jobs in a precarious position. They kept kicking the QB can down the road to this upcoming draft, now they have a high pick to solve the problem. Hue and the FO must get this right. So far their collective judgement regarding QBs is suspect at best. They have one shot to get it right. If they don't it's likely over for all of them. This will be the deciding factor whether the regime will be successful or not so the jury is still out.

RB Crowell vs Crowell - He's a beast in the open who has trouble finding holes off his assigned gap. He also plays better the more carries he gets, so there's that. I think it was wise of the FO the wait to see how this season played out before discussing a contract. He may be gone, likely walking in free agency ala Mack. I don't think they will offer him more than fair market, and I don't think he or his agent will find that acceptable. On Hue's end, he's underutilizing him. Period. The run to pass ratio is ridiculous, particularly in games like Sunday in cold, rainy weather with a close score. Add a rookie QB against a good D and there's no excuse. Hue screwed up, and his overall philosophy to underutilize the run is a problem he needs to fix. I also think we need and will get a better RB. Crow is a good back, he's just not consistent.

RB Duke vs Duke - One of the few bright spots on the team. I believe this FO did his four year deal. (IMO it was a steal) He's only gotten better. But again, is under-utilized. Again, I feel it is a short coming of Hue's to underutilize his backs in favor of his passing game. It's not a philosophy that is conducive to our current and particular skill set.

WR Benjamin vs Coleman - I never felt Benjamin had that much skill as a receiver but he was fast and a decent deep threat. I was always concerned with his frail frame. Ironically, it's Coleman who spends the greater amount of time on IR. Talent -vs- talent, Coleman is the superior WR. Benji wasn't going to stay because of the money. This position move will be an upgrade if Coleman can stay healthy. This is an area where Hue shines, getting his receivers opportunities. I'm looking forward to a great passing game once the QB position is settled.

WR Hawkins vs Louis - I was really rooting for Louis but he's been awful with the drops. They should've kept Hawk just to have his attitude and experience in the locker room. I'd take Hawk over Louis and Higgins.

In general, the FO has botched the WR corps. The gambled that a couple of their four draft picks would pan out. So far only Coleman has shown any real talent. The Britt signing has been a disaster so far. I wonder if he can turn it around. I also wonder why he wasn't cut by the FO (a mistake, IMO) and benched by Hue much sooner (another mistake, IMO). The FO Needs to add some playmakers this offseason, in both FA & through the draft. Getting Gordon back may turn out to be a Christmas miracle, literally saving their collective asses, should it work out. With a talent like Gordon, Hue could really shine.

TE Barnidge vs Njoku - It may be possible to say Barnidge would be a stabilizing force in the TE room and on the field, but you have to love Njoku's upside. DeValve does ok, but has had a couple disappointing drops. Telfer is there to block. I think the group as a whole is underutilized, size alone can create mismatches, but I get that there probably isn't a lot of trust for the TEs or the QB-TE connection. It could be argued that this is an area the FO could've left a veteran presence in. The sacrifice would have been Telfer or DeValve. I understand why they cut Barnidge, but the learning curve is steeper than anticipated. Bottom line, I'll take Njoku over Barnidge and believe he will prove to be a really good draft pick.

LT Thomas vs Thomas - I hope he can play at least another year. I hope he coaches for us. I hope the FO can get that done. I admire the fact that they gave him a raise. Showed real class. Hue obviously has his respect and visa-versa. That has to mean something.

LG Bitonio vs Bitonio - I just want him to stay healthy. We miss him when he's not there. The FO got him locked up long term. Good job.

C Mack vs Tretter - We miss Mack. I don't think the FO could do anything to keep him. I give them credit for spending on Tretter and working toward solidifying the O-line. They've done a very good job building in the trenches. We all know it starts there. I have to give the FO high marks for the work they've done on both lines.

RG Grecco vs Zeitler - Zeitler is an upgrade. See above. Grecco served us well.

RT Schwartz vs Coleman - Losing Schwartz was an ego move. I'll never be convinced otherwise. This is their biggest fail so far, IMO. Fortunately, Coleman is panning out. They can wipe the sweat off their brow. In general, the O-line's run potential is being underutilized. We've seen them have success, they need time to get into rhythm too like everyone else but we don't run enough for that to happen. But I don't want to harp on this... Or do I?

DE Bryant vs Garrett - Hands down Garret. Super beast. Win for the FO. If he can stay healthy. I have to give Hue props on how he handles player rehab. In general, he errs on the side of caution and I like that.

DE Starks vs Ogbah - Ogbah is coming on and really starting to find his groove. He's a pleasure to watch develop and adding MG only enhances his performance. This is a good pick by the FO (1st in the 2nd) and if I can be so bold as to put a grade on him during second year, he's a solid A.

DT Shelton vs Shelton - I also like watching Danny develop. He's becoming a force, I believe. I love his energy.

LB/DT Orchard vs Coley - I like Nate. He's in a good role now. I like Coley too. He sort of came out of nowhere and is a good example of the FO finding quality players on the waiver wire.

The FO has done a tremendous job with the D-line and I don't think they're done yet. We've barely scratched the surface with Brantley & Ogunjobi. This is a bright spot on the team, and it gives me hope that the FO can and will address each position group with this type of diligence and success.

LB Robertson vs Kirksey - The FO sort of screwed the pooch getting rid of a veteran LB that the coaching staff wanted. This may have been the early beginning of the discord. I like Kirksey, and he flashes, but he's not a great LB. I think this is an area we'll look to upgrade even though we just gave him a new contract. We'll see. Maybe not this year.

LB Kruger vs Collins - It's a shame we lost Collins. He's a great signing and trade by the FO. Really good work here. Burgess had to step in. He's getting better, had a really good game Sunday. Another example of the FO scouring the waiver wire to upgrade the roster, via the practice squad.

MLB Dansby vs Schobert - Dansby was a pro on the decline, Schobert is second year and learning. Given that, he's dong pretty good. He could turn out to be a very sold fourth round pick. Some may argue that Dansby is another vet that could've/should've been retained. Maybe so, but there are only so many roster spots to go around and he was never part of the future.

CB Haden vs McCourty - McCourty is playing well. Haden is not what he was. Now with him being injured again cutting him looks like a smart move. I don't like that the FO & coaches weren't on the same page, if that is the case. These are the types of things they need to get a grip on. It's ok that there's disagreement within the building, but the sounds of discord shouldn't reach the outside.

CB T Williams vs Taylor - Taylor sucks. I wish he was better but he's not. Definitely will draft a CB high. They can fix this. Wilson is another unknown with very solid potential.

S Gipson vs Peppers - Tashaun because he can actually play the position, but I'll take Peppers upside along with a drafted FS in 2018.

S Whitner vs Kindred - Our safety squad is decimated and I wonder what it will look like with Peppers as the SS.

WR & secondary are probably the two big fixes this off-season (besides QB) for the FO. With a QB, some receivers, and an improved secondary, this team should start to look like a real team.

I don't think the FO has done a bad job drafting. I do trust them with this next draft. They have to get the QB situation right and they have to address all the position groups with the thoroughness, care and discernment that they've shown with the D-Line.

Hue needs to be a better HC. He needs to get a grip on his clock management skills, he needs to taylor his offense to the strengths of his playmakers, he needs to be more stoic and circumspect with regards to his relationship with the FO, and he needs to look up from his card once in a while and coach a damn game that will defeat his opponent.

JMHO

No one is expecting playoffs in year 2. But winning 2-3 games is a pretty reasonable expectation. Showing some signs that we're moving in the right direction. An 0-16 season isn't progress.

I do agree with that. So now we are at the point of taking sides....do we have the talent to win some games and coaching is the problem, or do we not and the FO is the problem?

That's where we are.

Will someone provide told the FO to pass on Wentz? Are there quotes from the actual participants?

I know there is a quote from Depo saying they didn't think Wentz was a top 20 qb, but does anyone have a quote from Hue saying he didn't want to draft Wentz?

peen, I took a long time to answer your post on the previous Haslam Decision Time thread. I researched articles about all the participants. I provided quotes. I provided links.

I spent about an hour making that reply to you. I did so because I thought you were being fair and I was trying to educate myself, you, and others.

What happens? You ignore the entire thing and didn't even have the decency to reply to it. And instead you pile on Hue and continue to defend the FO.

You're wearing thin, man! If you refuse to play fair, you and I will no longer be friends. I'm saying this to you because we've been friends for a long time. I don't like some of the guys who have the same views on the FO and Hue, so I could care less what they say. However, I do care what you say. I'm not asking you to agree w/me, but I am asking you to play fairly. If you can't do that..........we're done!

And peen, I am saying that knowing full well that the usual suspects are going to mock me for those comments. Easy target. However, I think it's worth it to try and get you to at least play fairly.

https://247sports.com/nfl/cleveland-brow...-Goff-109744160

The Cleveland Browns have been searching for a quarterback.

According to NFL Network's Michael Silver, a person friend of head coach Hue Jackson, says that the coach has wanted Los Angeles Rams quarterback Jared Goff and New England Patriots quarterback Jimmy Garoppolo more than any other options since he has been named the head coach.

Goff was taken with the No. 1 overall selection in the 2016 NFL Draft. The Browns traded the rights to the No. 2 overall selection, ultimately used to select quarterback Carson Wentz, to the Philadelphia Eagles.

Garoppolo was traded to the San Francisco 49ers Monday for a second round draft choice. Cleveland had reportedly offered more earlier in the process.

With the mention of Goff and Garoppolo specifically, it is safe to say Jackson was not as high on Watson or Wentz. NFL media has lambasted that Browns for passing on both this season.

The Browns must push forward seeking other options. DeShone Kizer, Cody Kessler and Kevin Hogan are the three quarterbacks on the roster. The organization has a lot of assets to address the position, including $117 million in salary cap space and 12 2018 NFL Draft choices.



I swear, it's like trying to argue with a tape recorder sometimes.

Unless Depo thinks he is twins, I wouldn't take the quote "we" to mean Depo himself. I think he includes the QB whisperer.

Also Hue's buddy Silver also said he wanted Goff and we already know that he tells his buddy all of the team business.

Agreed.

All I can say is just wow.

I don't know about that. But I have a quote from me.

"I don't think Wentz is even a 1st round pick."

lol yea...umm...yeaaaa...about that...I may have been a smidge off on that one.

I enjoyed reading your take. Far more in depth than what I was expecting.

I don't necessarily agree on Schwartz. I think Kirksey is leaning towards great. And Kindred has become one of the better SS in the league. Not sure where that leaves Peppers, but I don't think he's the worst player on the team as some have mentioned.

I agree about QB. The front office will hopefully get a chance to prove themselves there whether Hue is here or not. I think we'll end up drafting 1st or 2nd unless something drastic happens and that would be the ideal spot to draft the QB. They just have to get it right.

Here is the quote:



One thing that always struck me about that comment was "NFL-ready quarterbacks." It stayed with me after hearing that Hue Jackson had promised Jared Goff's parents that he wouldn't start until they knew he could be protected.



There are a few other examples that are too time consuming to collect, but I feel the common theme was that the front office and Jackson alike knew they did not have a team to support a young quarterback trying to find his feet in the NFL.

In that regard, I'm sympathetic to the Browns passing on some of these guys. Watson, Wentz and Goff would not be the same guys on this team. Not even close. As bad as we are, we'd also have significantly less selections either from not trading down or from having to trade up.

Goff, Wentz and Watson all have one thing in common - they were selected by very good teams off the back of underperforming years. They didn't need to amass a plethora of talent around them. Goff and Wentz both got receivers in year two, but for the most part, their teams were pretty set and recently removed from winning seasons.

There is a part of me wonders if the Browns were wise in not aggressively targeting some of these quarterbacks. We've all met the right girl at the right time, right? With such an empty team, it is hard to fault everyone for being inclined to amass selections to try and get the team situation right before trying to make a long-term commitment around someone.

We know the Browns believed in Goff, but something prevented them from trading up. I wonder if that was the roster, and I wonder how much of that has influenced our decisions over the last two years.

If we pick a QB at #1 next draft and they pan out, all this 20/20 talk becomes moot. We didn't draft Wentz, Goff, Watson, Prescott or Tom Brady. It's gone. I see it senseless trawling over that to assess who sucks least (most) in our organisation.

If we draft Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield, etc then we can see how this pans out. If it does, staff and FO will be winners. If it doesn't, they end up looking for work.

I didn't mean to wear thin. I did mean to comment on Grigson. I forgot about that guy. I think most have. You point about him being abrasive in Indy and how that might be transfering here is a good one...who knows? What I do know is a person doesn't usually chage the way they operate, so it could be.

Not only did he say that. He also is constantly saying that HE and the Coaching Staff OWN THIS.

Rastaplan, or whatever your name is. You have NO CLUE what you're spewing about. Obvious after the comments you made above about Depodesta EVALUATING players. Thanks for the Turkey Day Laugh.

Just wow?

I still don't see any quotes from Hue or anyone in the FO that says Hue didn't like Wentz.

What I do see is a bunch of guys ignoring the lack of qualifications for our FO members and transferring all of the blame to Hue while giving the FO a free pass.

j/c



We are all shocked that there is no such direct quote from Hue ...he's never going to make such a quote and everyone knows it. Complaining about a lack of such a quote does not advance the point. Shall I post direct quotes from Hue about RG3?

NEWSFLASH: They didn't draft Wentz when he was there for the taking. Instead, Hue fawned over RG3. Hue was brought here to help find the QB. Put two and two together...it's not difficult.



BS. A bunch of guys? Maybe a half dozen. You've made that post a hundred times. If you didn't have so many people on 'Ignore' you'd see that the majority of this board believes that BOTH the FO AND Hue need to do a better job and that no one should be fired right now.

You're not going to hear me say the front office lacks qualifications because I believe they are qualified.

I don't think anyone in support of the front office is saying we have the talent to make the playoffs. I think the stance is we have talent to avoid 1-15 and 0-10, but we aren't avoiding it. That's on Hue.

To clarify my point:

There are a handful of posters here who defend the FO w/vigor and try to blame Hue for everything. They say things like "Hue passed on Wentz and Watson," even though there is no proof that he was alone in those moves.

Here is what I think. I think that they all met and had a voice in who to take and not take. I don't think it is as simple as placing all the blame on Hue for our missteps.

Now we are down to a handful of posters? I can really only think of 1 (tony), and I think he wants everybody canned.

You and mac alone blaming the FO for everything under the sun easily offsets a handful of posters blaming Hue for everything.

Probably so, because he was stupid. The FO has someone to fire. If Hue had a OC he would have someone to fire, but, he doesn't.

I was in charge of a department once, with no control over hiring. After taking heat for not making top performers out of complete morons, I let it go to hell, then quit. The talent is on Sashi

The talent is on Heckert. . . and Banner/Lombardi. . . and Farmer and. . .