DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Kizer rnd. 4

What makes you believe he can read a defense?

Are you talking about pre-snap? Post-snap? Or both?

Some points about Kizer.

Let's not forget he's a raw 21 year old rookie who was brought into one of the most failed cultures in the NFL
This franchise is 4 55 since they beat the Bengals on Monday night
That's unprecedented in the NFL
That is a overwhelming cloud that rests above a franchise
Now your asking a strong armed yet very raw qb to win games and direct a offense with subpar talent at WR
And a 20 year raw TE.
There was no recipie for success for Kizer to walk into
Look at DeShawn Watson.
His cast of talent is light years above the Browns

Miller
Foreman
Fuller
Hopkins.

Playmakers all over
Theres isn't one Brown RB TE WR that could start for the Texans

Kizer isn't accomplished enought to overcome the Browns shortcomings on offense
Yep Kizer has been up and down this year
Inaccurate with his throws
But show me player on offense has played at a elite level
On the Browns that's not a oline man.
Kizer should have sat for a year and learn from a seasoned vet.

Psst. ... he has me on ignore .....

Please let him know that Kizer didn’t play in a spread offense in college .. that just FALSE INFO being spread ....

Thats just WRONG and others that have no clue will repeat it like gospel cause they read it on here ....

LOL............I think you just did.

No I didn’t .. he has me on ignore ...

He dont like it when i tell him who is stats are for ....

I find this so ironic it's not funny.

You're talking about .........actually making fun of someone that has you on ignore - and you're talking to a person that has so many people on ignore.

Irony.

Vers has me on ignore because I called him out.

You doing the same thing?

Just so we're clear, Diam, I'm just not interested in being chased from thread to thread being called a loser for something as strange as posting completion percentages. Especially when you have no problem with other posters doing so. You're still doing it right now, and I'm not even posting statistics because I get attacked for it. I just want to talk football. Internet fights aren't my thing.

For the record, Kizer did play in a spread in college. Having an offense that has pro-routes doesn't equal the verbiage, route concepts or dropback timing that make a pro-style offense experience so desirable. In fact, Joe Thomas compared Kizer's collegiate offense to a high school offense in one of his press conferences this year. So call me a loser for correcting you again. Or, better yet, go get me banned again - which is exactly why you're on ignore.

I am not mocking you or trying to start a fight, but you made a comment earlier that Kizer can read defenses.

I asked:

What makes you believe he can read a defense?

Are you talking about pre-snap? Post-snap? Or both?

Would you like to respond? I'm curious to hear your answers.

Both. And it's all over the tape to see.

His issues are breakdowns, particularly in his footwork and mechanics. Both interceptions last week against Jacksonville stemmed from poor footwork. The first to Telvin Smith he had inconsistent stride length and a wide step to base, which resulted in a crossed base and a wide set-to-throw which ultimately had the same effect as a hitch on a hard drop. His brain was there, he even pat the ball waiting for his feet to catch up, and the window closed by the time he made the throw. He made the right pre-snap read knowing the will would follow Devalve to the flat and trusted Coleman to get the inside of the release, but the throw came post-break rather than in anticipation of it. Second throw, his mechanics were awful because Drango got pushed back so Kizer didn't step in to the throw, releasing while his torso fell off which killed his release point and sailed the ball high.

There are so few instances in which Kizer is oblivious. He's rushed or slow, which is hurting his accuracy and letting defenders gain step on recievers who already struggle gaining much separation and at times even position.

Same thing that happened to Jared Goff last year. He was a fraction slower in everything he did, which threw him off. The highly-accurate Goff suddenly couldn't complete much of anything and was turning the ball over an awful lot more than he did in college.

This is what you get when you take the 3rd youngest QB in recent NFL history, and the youngest to ever wear a Browns uniform. We knew he needed development, and this is the result.

The problem, in my opinion, every dismisses every Kizer mistake as not reading a defense. It's just not the case. He's inconsistent across the board but is showing steady improvement.

I’m not making fun of him ... not at all ...

All i want is for someone to tell him that Kizer didn’t play in a spread offense ... that’s NOT TRUE ... one of the things I can’t stand is when someone spreads BAD INFO ...

BDU seems like a good dude and doesn’t know that Kizer didn’t play in a spread O ... he needs to be told he wasn’t so he doesn’t make false statements ... i appreciatte it when folks point that out when i do it ... GM did it just the other day ...

I don’t get offended by much .... i’ve Got extremely thick skin ... ...

Then i stated why he has me on ignore ... its smart of him to have me on ignore if he doesn’t like me telling him who stats are for ... it enhances his experience here .... i’m All for that ...

I told device the other day he may want to put me on ignore ...

Some folks dont like me and i am not PC ... i’ll speak my mind .... ask your buddy Swish ... *L* .... thats fine by me ... i could care less ...

Nice to see another football post from U arch ... keep up the good work ...

I guess he doesn’t have me on ignore .. *L* ...

I dont chase u around ... i’ve Used that a MILLION TIMES ... ask edromeo about it .. *L* ..

I’m not interested in internet fights either ...

He did not play in a spread offense ... it had ONE spread concept/play in it ... but it was not a spread O ... i’m an ND fan and haven’t missed a game in many many years ... i also know football ... Kelly does not run a spread O ...

Your post in this thread is the first time I’ve EVER HEARD he played in a spread O ... doesn’t mean it isn’t out there somewhere ... doesn’t really matter ... IT SIMPLY ISN’T TRUE ...

U can go ahead and spread that BS if u so choose ... thats your choice ...

I’m not going to argue or fight with U ... i will however call U out for it whenever i see u say it ... just like when u use stats ...

No need to fight or argue ... i’ll Call u out on it and then leave u alone ... just like here ... i’ve Done what i need too ... i’m done ...

*LOL* at U thinking i got you banned ... thats funny ... i would NEVER blow anyone in ... EVER .. not who I am ...

I’ll go talk football ... thats what i enjoy and thats what enhances my experience ...

Enjoy yourself .. if that means putting me on ignore ... that’d be smart of u ...

Wonder if i’m back on ignore and who PMed him to take me off ... like i care ....

Are you guys going to talk football?

While the offense did have some pro concepts, Kizer played in a spread offense.

DeShone Kizer: I can be greatest quarterback ever to play in NFL

Tom Pelissero, USA TODAY Sports Published 4:18 p.m. ET April 20, 2017 | Updated 12:55 a.m. ET April 24, 2017

SOUTH BEND, Ind. – DeShone Kizer paused the video and rattled off everything that would have to be perfect for him to run the play as called in Notre Dame’s opener last season against Texas.

The defensive tackle is in the correct spot, but not the Longhorns’ best defender, a linebacker who’s in blitz position off the edge of the formation, right where the run is supposed to go.

“So now I’m up there checking the play,” Kizer told USA TODAY Sports, letting the tape roll again and watching himself make the change from his seat at the back of the Fighting Irish quarterbacks meeting room. “Instead of running at Malik Jefferson, let’s run it inside where I’m away from him. That’s exactly what we get to. So now we’re inside zone, I read that end, we cut back off of him and we’re off to the races.”

No quarterback prospect in next week’s NFL draft has been picked apart quite like Kizer since he declared in the wake of Notre Dame’s 4-8 finish and his own uneven play. Depending whom you ask inside the league, he could be just the fourth or fifth QB taken after North Carolina’s Mitchell Trubisky, Texas Tech’s Patrick Mahomes, Clemson’s Deshaun Watson and Cal’s Davis Webb. But if you want to buy Kizer as a worthy first-round pick, this is a good place to start.

In the spread offense era of college football, where most coaches keep things simple for players and try to win with pure speed and precision, Kizer had what former Irish offensive coordinator Mike Sanford calls a “really rare” level of control – the ability to not only choose and manipulate protections, but manipulate the calls themselves. Run to run. Run to pass. Pass to run. And not just a “kill” call to a predetermined alternative. The playbook was at Kizer’s disposal.

Of course, that can cause problems when you’re running with a bunch of freshman receivers trying to remember hand signals and route depths with the game on the line. (Notre Dame coach Brian Kelly simplified things late in the season for a reason.) But Kizer has left little doubt he has the mental bandwidth required of NFL quarterbacks. And for a stretch during his nearly two seasons as the starter, Kizer’s size (6-foot-4, 230 pounds), skills and production in that complicated system suggested he should be a candidate for the No. 1 overall pick.

“Name a college quarterback who goes into the game-plan meetings on Monday and throws his notes at the coaches,” Kizer said. “No one else game plans the way I do. No one else prepares the way I do. No one else knows football the way I do. No one else is as big as I am. No one else is as powerful a runner as I am. Pat Mahomes might throw the ball 80 yards and I can only throw the ball 72, but I guarantee he can’t throw an out route the way I can.

“No one else can do what I can do. And I’ve truly figured out in this (draft) process, if I can maximize all my potential in every aspect of the game – this is bold – I do have the ability to be the greatest quarterback to ever play. Imagine taking (Tom) Brady’s intellect and Brady’s preparation and putting it on a guy with Cam Newton’s body. Why can’t I be the greatest? The only thing stopping me from it is me. That’s what’s driving me now.”

The concerns about Kizer

There are two primary threads of concern among NFL scouts and coaches about Kizer – one he mostly agrees with, and another he strongly rejects.

The first is accuracy, which hasn’t been good enough. Kizer completed 62.9% of his passes as a redshirt freshman in 2015 and just 58.7% in 2016, when he and coaches kept trying to adjust his mechanics. He can pull up three examples of the exact same play from the same game on tape and his footwork looks a little different in each of them. Operating mostly from the shotgun, Kizer wasn’t even consistent on which foot was back at the snap, and didn’t know it until he saw the tape. He admits he had other worries as things unraveled – competing with junior Malik Zaire, getting booed going into the tunnel, getting benched.

Since December, Kizer has worked with a QB coach, Zac Robinson, on honing his identity as a passer. It was ugly when he tried to show off the adjustments at the scouting combine in early March. (“I started over-exaggerating,” he said.) His pro day was better, though his ball placement still wasn’t perfect. He has continued to concentrate on not over-striding. In private workouts with a half-dozen NFL teams, Kizer said, he’s throwing the best of his life.

“I figured out I’m at my best when my left hand’s locked in, my body’s balanced, I’ve got a little knee bend in my front leg as I throw the ball, I take a short step and I rip it,” he said.

The second concern is less quantifiable. Going back to the fall, when Kelly didn’t give Kizer all the practice reps or really commit to him until after an October benching against Stanford, the word getting back to NFL scouts is there may be a problem with desire. Is Kizer committed to doing what it takes to be great? Or is he more concerned with living the life and getting the spoils of being good?

It’s no accident Kizer avoided marketing deals, stayed off social media and did few interviews like this one over the past four months. He and his agents wanted to make clear he was focused solely on football. But the questions have persisted.

Part of the perception, Kizer thinks, stems from one of his regrets last season: he wasn’t visible enough as a leader. He’s naturally introverted in his preparation. Yes, he was often the first one out of the locker room. But he says that was to get away from the high emotions of practice. He’d see his tutor, do his homework and then come back late at night, when he could dim the lights in this QB room, put on country music and let himself become the player he was watching on the screen, alone. He also understands that if young teammates never saw him watching film, it’d be tough to convince them to.

“For (anyone) to say I don’t love the game or I don’t have the passion to be great – go spend one day in the Kizer household, I dare you,” Kizer said. “My dad told me when I was 12, quote: ‘I’m not paying for your college. Either you’re going to the military or you’re getting an athletic scholarship.’ And Lord knows I was never killing anyone and I wasn’t getting killed. So sports have always been my life. Winning has always been my life. I’ve never been a loser until this last year.”

So how would life be if he’s not great in the NFL?

“I’d be miserable,” Kizer said. “I’d be out there grinding my ass off until I was. I don’t know anything other than that.”

The answers will keep coming

While Kelly raised eyebrows a couple weeks ago by telling SiriusXM NFL Radio that Kizer needs more time to grow on and off field and “should still be in college” – an assertion Kizer doesn’t necessarily disagree with, though he thinks he’ll be ready to play as an NFL rookie – Sanford has been a staunch and vocal supporter of his former QB.

“He’s an absolute joy to coach, because he can conceptualize things way faster than most of the quarterbacks I’ve been around, without having to draw it up or put it on film,” said Sanford, now head coach at Western Kentucky. “How many of these other quarterbacks have completely managed protections with live bullets coming at the largest stadiums in college football? How many of these other quarterbacks have manipulated the run game to make sure you’re not running bad runs into bad looks?

“The risk side of it is going to be he hasn’t played more than two years of college football. He is a larger athlete, so there’s always going to be that fine-tuning of the mechanics. But the reward for me is you have a 6-4, 225-plus quarterback that’s going
You can see the smarts on that run check in the Texas game that led to a long gain, and the protection adjustment Kizer made on a touchdown pass to Josh Adams in the fourth quarter of the same game (a 50-47 loss in double overtime).

He can also pull up examples of the checks and decisions that didn’t go right – poor pocket movement on a critical interception against Duke, sliding the protection the wrong way against a USC pressure and taking a sack.

Kizer doesn’t have all the answers. He just doesn’t see why he can’t have them eventually.

“The experiences that I’ve gone through these past couple years are also what separates me in this class,” Kizer said. “I think I know what it takes to win, and I know what it takes to endure adversity. I’ve hit my low. It’s only up from here.”

Link

The first time I saw Kizer play was in a preseason game.

I remember seeing him on the sideline. He had such a look on his face. Like he had a giant chip on his shoulder.


And I thought GOOD. Welcome to Cleveland, because youre gonna need that chip to deal with fans/media.

And his chip hasnt let me down. Dude is a leader. His skills and experience just need to catch up with his heart.

He aint perfect yet. Come this time next year and I think you will be pleased with him.

Yeah as really think that I was skeptical of him over not being a QB in college for long.

He will make mistakes but at least he is learning and willing to.

...

OK Otis ...

lamp

Feel free to put me on ignore if i dont talk enough football for U ...

It ain’t my fault they dont know what a spread offense is ....

do you have a football post in there or would you prefer to continue to be a condescending arse?

Quote a single post where I've defended every move the FO has made. If you can't, apologize or don't cry when you are called a liar.

Limit the rotation? Um, yeah. I clearly stated my line of thought on that in the very same post where I talked about limiting the WR rotation. If you have a hard time with reading comprehension, that's not my problem. You may want to seek help for that.

Good morning Vers

Man, you're sensitive.

Thanks for answering. I am skeptical of him reading defenses, both pre and post snap. But, I do appreciate you answering.

I owe U an apology ... I thought about it last night ... Kelly adjusts his offensive philosophy to the personal he has ... long story short as no one really cares about the history of ND offenses under Kelly ... *L* ..

With Kizer in 2015 he ran what i would consider a combo read option spread offense ... going into the year Zaire was our starter and we were going to be a read/option offense ... he was a GREAT RUNNER that couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn ... he went down in game 1 ...

Kizer was a much better passer who had Will Fuller and Kelly adjusted .. we also had a hell of a running game that year witch opened up a lot for the passing game .... when we did pass he used a lot of the “spread” offense concepts ...

In 2016 with different talent ... an even better running game and no Will Fuller he once again adjusted ... i would categorize this O as more of a smash mouth running game as opposed to a read/option running game and he once again used spread offense philosophies when he did pass ...

I apologize for saying you were full of crap for saying Kizer ran a spread offense in college ... i got caught up in the fact we used the run to set up the pass and to me thats not a spread offense ... i was WRONG!!!!

Sorry about that ...

Thanks for making me think ... i was spreading bad info ... I dont like it when others do it and I HATE WHEN I DO IT ... its not good on many levels ... i try and avoid it at all costs ...

*LOL* ...

I’ve never seen an analogy that included making a sandwich as part of it when describing an offense ... that was funny to me ...

Football is difficult to assess.

There are several interdependent parts at play that make an offense effective.

The QB position is one of the most dependent players on the football field.
The QB is dependent upon pass protection, receiving options and playcalling.

Imho the easiest and the laziest type of football assessment is to blame/praise the QB as if they are tennis players, solely responsible for production on offense.

I'm really trying to understand those that have already decided in their minds that Kizer isn't the answer. A QB needs certain prerequisites on offense in order to be properly judged in the passing game. Lol, Chief among those are RECEIVERs.

Can anyone who thinks Kizer isn't the answer honestly type with a straight face claim that the Browns have good no adequate enough receiving targets to assess QB play?

----------------------------------------------------

Also, the draft is zero sum. Using a 1st round or early round draft pick takes away from adding premium talent to the offense and the supporting cast on offense is clearly a major issue.

But I guess if the FO just drafts a QB every round they'll eventually stumble upon the mythical QB savoir?

https://ndnation.com/archives/36







Source: http://www.clashmoremike.com/2010/03/spr.../#ixzz4zSms7xvc

I actually feel there are very few that think "Kizer can't be the answer". However, there is every reason to question "if he will be the answer".

IMO, until you have a franchise QB, you need a franchise QB.

With some QB's, even though their records may be poor, you can see progress and the things you know you need to see from your QB. You can see on the field the ingredients that make a franchise QB. While others leave a lot of questions unanswered. I believe Kizer leaves a lot of those questions unanswered.

When looking at it big picture, I think it's far too risky to ignore trying to actually draft a franchise QB. What's the worst thing that can happen if both are successful? We have TWO good QB's? Oh the horror! lmao

And I agree that our WRs' are bad. I highly doubt many would disagree. But that doesn't address that Kizer isn't accurate with the football. That doesn't address him overthrowing and underthrowing WR's. You can see where the WR is and where the ball is thrown to.

It's a very basic concept. If you don't know you have a franchise QB, you need a franchise QB. And depending on a QB who hasn't shown he has the ingredients to be a franchise QB, to turn into a franchise QB is an extremely risky proposition.

Here are some areas where I think Kizer needs to improve...here's what I see/think:


o Needs to play with more consistent rhythm/timing especially in the drop back passing game.

Master his pre-snap reads and throw them with confidence-

Too often he gets to the top of drop and the ball doesn't come out. He needs to get to the drop of his drop and throw with confidence in rhythm.

o Shorten his base at the top of his drop

o Shoulder level.
- I noticed a tendency where he allows his front shoulder to angle upwards on throws where it should be level. When he doesn't keep his shoulders level the ball has a tendency to sail.

o Needs to work on 'how' to make certain throws by changing the pace of the ball

o be more careful with the ball, e.g.
can't throw a RB screen directly to a DL etc

o Mental toughness, don't lose faith when the game turns south

You forgot about accuracy and his post snap reads.

The thing about accuracy and reads is that both require knowing where your receivers will be. Ours aren't very predictable. Between getting jammed and straight up giving up on routes our timing is generally thrown off. That's not even accounting for receivers having to make reads and adjustments, which once again they aren't very good at.

The worst thing? The worst thing is you have 2 QBs that don't know enough about and don't have enough reps and a situation that divides the coaching staff and team and you also miss out on the skill position talent the offense actually needs.

The premium draft pick that is used on the next "franchise" QB ends up being a wasted pick because you/the FO wrongly assessed the QB as the issue on offense as opposed to skill position talent the offense sorely needs then the premium selection you used on a yet another "failed" QB savoir ends up being the pro-bowl skill position the player the offense needed.

You don't actually agree the WRs are bad because if you did you would realize that the WRs ability effects the QB play.

Your opinion that Kizer isn't accurate with the football is an opinion that we don't share. So don't bother trying to co-opt me into that opinion. Has Kizer missed some throws? Sure has. But i don't agree that Kizer is an "inaccurate" QB to a degree that precludes him from becoming the "franchise" QB you want.

I agree it is a very basic concept. If you are not in a position to properly assess a situation then you don't make decisions without an accurate assessment.
Making a decision without enough information is nothing more then guesswork.

You might want to figure it out yourself first.

https://ndnation.com/archives/36

https://www.footballstudyhall.com/2017/1...mbush-chip-long

https://247sports.com/college/notre-dame/Article/Brian-Kelly-And-The-Running-QB-25734

https://notredame.rivals.com/news/one-on-one-with-notre-dame-head-coach-brian-kelly

https://www.sbnation.com/college-footbal...ll-offense-2015

Dishone Kizer is the starting qb for the Browns this week, he is the best option to be the Quarterback.

He is going to start the whole game, and he is going to play well.

Nothing else really matters.

We're still in the playoff hunt babyyyyyyyyyy!

J/C

Ideal situation for QB next year. We draft Rosen and sign a vet FA to give teach the young guys how to be pros, how to prepare in the film room, how to prepare your body etc.

I'd start the OTA's with a rotation of:
1) Vet FA
2) Rosen
3) Kizer

And as soon as he was ready - be it preseason, game 1, game 6 it would become:
1) Rosen
2) Vet FA
3) Kizer

And then you hope that over time Kizer could grow into a backup QB role:
1) Rosen
2) Kizer
3) Vet FA - who we could eventually cut loose.

I wouldn't be mad at all to have Kizer as Rosen's backup for the next 4 years.

Or at all? Seems like one progression and let it rip. Really think the other junk is happening?

Well, so what?

Trust me (too!).

I see Memphis liked your post. That means there were insults involved.

I am going to ask you to stop w/the name-calling? Please?

You wanna argue? Fine. But please stop calling me names like a "liar" and a "fool."

i would be suspended in a NY minute for either one, yet I guarantee nothing will happen to you. That's the way this board rules. Right jfan?

You act like Josh Rosen has shown anything to look like he can actually win in the NFL.

He hasn't.

Why do you guys just make stuff up?