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Oh I'm so touched by your defense of Mensa..
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frye is another vick without the arm or supporting running game, imo.
I`m good with Baker... Playoffs is good enough for me.
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Everyone knows the white Michael Vick is Joey Ayoob!
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Who? Tony Shalhoub?
Y'all can keep your QB's... I'm gonna go out and corner the market on #2 jerseys.
Don't call it a comeback! Couch Will Be Back in Cleveland Baby!
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Joey Ayoob! He's a Cal QB who is a legend in the California JUCO circuit becuase he was called the "white Vick" because of how athletic he is. Never mind he's a horrible QB!
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Quote:
And who but you cares what SI values?
Damn man...take a chill pill.
I like reading Mensa'a stats and reports, etc, etc, etc...if you sift through the bias that stuff is pretty cool.
I find his stuff more intriguing than some guy on the internet pretending he can evaluate football at a high level. I laugh everytime someone backs up an opinion with the phrase, "I use my eyes to formulate my opinion"...
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HEY! Some of us take offense to that!
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if you sift through the bias that stuff is pretty cool.
Please..GMAB ..thats the reason it's redundant because practically all of it is biased.
I find his stuff more intriguing than some guy on the internet pretending he can evaluate football at a high level.
And who might that be?
I laugh everytime someone backs up an opinion with the phrase, "I use my eyes to formulate my opinion"...
So some of us are dummies because we trust what we see rather than use a stat to paint the picture?
Perhaps you should chill a bit..I guess you forget how sarcastic I get in here..
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 07/24/07 01:57 PM.
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I'd rather formulate an opinion based on watching games, seeing a guy play, thn studying a stats page and formulating my opinion that way.
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Sorry about that...
My point is:
Railing on a guy who uses stats and then saying you use your eyes to evaluate a football game is in my mind absurd.
Do stats tell the whole story? NO.
Does your television tell the whole story? NO.
Quick examples:
A QB rating doesn't reflect a 1 yd pass that a RB took 99 yards for a TD versus a long throw into coverage that resulted in the same 99 yd TD. I think we can all agree that those two plays would take a different level of effort by the QB....
Football is the hardest sport to evaluate IMO, because 11 guys on the field have different assignments each play. It's nearly impossible to evaluate as a fan, because you don't know these assignments. If a WR runs a wrong route that results in an INT, how would you know that? Most likely you wouldn't and blame the QB.
Stats and some random fan's opinion both have the same problem; they never tell the whole story.
Hope that clears it up. 
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"Too bad you don't hold Chuck to the same stand as you do Anderson."
Don't insult me with your standards of pessimism and quick judgment.
My standards of being a Winning QB has a lot to do with first having a winning team.
See QBs like Archie Manning who were not Winning QBs why? Not a winning team.
So sometimes you have to look outside of the Wins n Losses to actually judge a QB if he possibly could be a winning QB or not. If all I had was a piece of paper then I would have to go on that piece of paper. But in the case of the Browns I got my eyes.
What I have liked about Frye and judge him as a possible winning QB has been his accuracy - This is my standard and when I hold that up against Anderson and judge them equally Anderson don't hold a candle to Frye. Funny thing is the media is Gaga about Anderson and probably so is Peen cause ya both are so impressionable but don't have a clue what talent really is about....lol 
Frye ain't no flash guy. Frye is not a Practice Player, if you judge by Practice Anderson looks better. If you judge by FOOTBALL Frye wins out 100%. Note the coaches aren't gaga over Anderson. They give him Token Props as the media beg for props about Anderson.
If Anderson is our QB than we might as well just fire RAC on the spot cause we will have another losing season big time. But then that also would please you Peen so I see your motive of not wanting Frye and agreeing with the media in their shallow views.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Railing on a guy who uses stats and then saying you use your eyes to evaluate a football game is in my mind absurd.
No it's not absurd when Mensa/Soup have always used stats for their arguments..neither can say HOW a player actually looks or how the plays actually develop , but use completion %'s or other stats to show if the player is actually any good.
If either used them to a REALITIVE degree I wouldn't say much.
I know you need to be able to know what happened.
But you have to admit, if we never saw the games and only saw stats that they post what would that do?
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"Sorry P...I don't agree with that.
Frye made it to the 3rd round because he was a overachiever....and that isn't a knock....a compliment really."
Not to pick on you Peen...actually my prior post was mostly tongue in cheek stuff - busting chops.
But this is about re-writing history. Actually Frye became available in the 3rd round largely due to the dropping of Rodgers - He goes in the top 10 like expected and Frye moves up possibly even to the first round at GB's spot as they were supposedly very hot on him. If not first then definately 2nd.
JMHRecollection on the draft year of 05.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Quote:
Sorry about that...
My point is:
Railing on a guy who uses stats and then saying you use your eyes to evaluate a football game is in my mind absurd.
Do stats tell the whole story? NO.
Does your television tell the whole story? NO.
Quick examples:
A QB rating doesn't reflect a 1 yd pass that a RB took 99 yards for a TD versus a long throw into coverage that resulted in the same 99 yd TD. I think we can all agree that those two plays would take a different level of effort by the QB....
Football is the hardest sport to evaluate IMO, because 11 guys on the field have different assignments each play. It's nearly impossible to evaluate as a fan, because you don't know these assignments. If a WR runs a wrong route that results in an INT, how would you know that? Most likely you wouldn't and blame the QB.
Stats and some random fan's opinion both have the same problem; they never tell the whole story.
Hope that clears it up.
No worries...I understand your point.
I'm not saying stats don't say anything...they do. I just feel that they can mislead someone. For example, in 1999 Kevin Carter lead the NFL in sacks (or pretty close to it), and he was being heralded as this great pass rusher. Never mind the fact that the Rams were usually operating with a mutli TD lead, and teams were pretty much passing non stop just to try to stay close, making it much easier for Carter and whole DL to just rush like crazy. When the Rams started to come back down to Earth, teams started see Carter wasn't unstoppable.
Just my flip to yours. But keep it coming...today has almost been manageable at work!
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You nailed it Damanshot.
We all witnessed Frye fumbling the ball more than any of us would like. But some just go with what they witness and conclude Frye's a fumbler.
Then if we use stats we'd find out that Frye's not as big a fumbler as many preceive.
Quarterbacks with at least 100 pass Attempts last year
% of times they fumbled when they were either sacked or ran the ball - plays in which fumbles occur
1 - 3.23% - Jason Campbell
2 - 5.36% - Michael Vick
3 - 5.41% - Peyton Manning
4 - 5.66% - Donovan McNabb
5 - 5.77% - Matt Hasselbeck
6 - 5.88% - Byron Leftwich
7 - 5.97% - David Garrard
8 - 6.41% - Ben Roethlisberger
9 - 7.46% - Marc Bulger
10 - 8.79% - Charlie Frye
11 - 9.26% - Vince Young
12 - 9.68% - Daunte Culpepper
13 - 10.13% - Alex Smith
14 - 10.17% - Drew Brees
15 - 10.42% - Aaron Brooks
16 - 10.67% - Philip Rivers
17 - 10.77% - Chad Pennington
18 - 11.34% - Jon Kitna
19 - 11.63% - Trent Green
20 - 11.76% - Joey Harrington
21 - 11.86% - Steve McNair
22 - 12.50% - Drew Bledsoe
23 - 12.73% - Tony Romo
24 - 12.96% - Jake Plummer
25 - 15.00% - Jake Delhomme
26 - 15.29% - JP Losman
27 - 15.52% - Brad Johnson
28 - 15.56% - Rex Grossman
29 - 15.91% - Brett Favre
30 - 15.96% - David Carr
31 - 16.00% - Tom Brady
32 - 16.67% - Derek Anderson
33 - 16.67% - Bruce Gradkowski
34 - 18.00% - Eli Manning
35 - 18.60% - Matt Leinart
36 - 19.23% - Seneca Wallace
37 - 19.35% - Jeff Garcia
38 - 20.83% - Mark Brunell
39 - 21.67% - Andrew Walter
40 - 24.19% - Carson Palmer
41 - 28.00% - Jay Cutler
42 - 33.33% - Kurt Warner
43 - 36.00% - Damon Huard
There were 16 other QB's with as many or more fumbles than Frye last year.
The stats do not tell the whole story, some of these guys may have played many games in wet conditions while others always had dry conditions.etc. etc. But the stats do tell a story, and by using them we can conclude that last year Frye was no where close to being the biggest fumbler. Carson Palmer was much closer to that recognition than Frye.
But then again, I guess these stats are worthless, I mean, we saw it with our own two eyes, Frye fumbled too much. It doesn't matter that we didn't nitpick other QB's around the league the same way, because there is no way they fumbled as much as small hands Charlie.
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Quote:
But this is about re-writing history. Actually Frye became available in the 3rd round largely due to the dropping of Rodgers - He goes in the top 10 like expected and Frye moves up possibly even to the first round at GB's spot as they were supposedly very hot on him. If not first then definately 2nd.
FWIW, that would be my recollection as well.
Rodgers was that year's Quinn, doing the free-fall thing. *Everyone* was shocked he dropped like that, it was the big story of the day and it definitely was a contributing factor in Frye being available when he was. I distinctly remember feeling fortunate on Draft Day that Frye was still there when it came our turn to pick.... I remember checking the teams before us that might select him and being relieved that they passed on him.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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" I laugh everytime someone backs up an opinion with the phrase, "I use my eyes to formulate my opinion"...
Dang...so you laugh at every single one of my Posts 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I think Mav is talking mainly about me railing on Mensa but he uses those stats like we use a keyboard..
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No doubt, stats can be manipulated to show a side of a story, I wont disagree with that...
But, an amateur evaluation of a fan is by no means a better evaluation than one based on stats...sorry if that riles feathers.
If you recall during the season, OverToad went to great lengths to break down plays during games and posting them for all to read. His effort compelled me to do the same. I never posted mine, but I made similar efforts to what Toad had done...
Recently I sat down with Frye, BPool and K2 (during their off time) and re-watched the Pittsburgh game I broke down during the season. In an attempt to see how my evaluation skills stacked up, I broke out my files from said game...and quickly became aware of how "off" a TV-based evaluation can be...It seemed like wherever I placed the blame for the failure this play or that play, I never quite had it 100% correct...
Now, maybe you're a way better evaluator than I (doubtful), but it goes to show no matter how much you watch or re-watch - you're never going to get it unless you're in the locker room.
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Quote:
" I laugh everytime someone backs up an opinion with the phrase, "I use my eyes to formulate my opinion"...
Dang...so you laugh at every single one of my Posts
Like a hyena.
Just kidding, I laugh when people say my evaluation is better than yours, etc, etc, etc...
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Well, I know no one would doubt my critiques...
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why not? You're not better than anyone on here.
in fact, I've seen multiple occasions where you've been corrected in the last week, so why should you be considered any better?
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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But, an amateur evaluation of a fan is by no means a better evaluation than one based on stats...sorry if that riles feathers.
As you said stats don't paint the whole picture.
One needs to know how to use them in the right way.
If you can watch the game and understand it to a good degree and then see how the stats tell you about the production ..it's better.
Here's a example of what I mean..if Frye is ranked as the 30th QB in the league, (there are a combination of stats to compile that ranking)but Mensa keeps pulling out the completition percentage to show he's middle of the pack is that going to make it better?
I used to get in heated arguments about Gerard Warren..people would point to how many tackles he'd have..
Well was he any good?
Nope..all one had to do was watch the guy, watch how undisiplined he was and how easily he was blocked out of a play..
Now, maybe you're a way better evaluator than I (doubtful), but it goes to show no matter how much you watch or re-watch - you're never going to get it unless you're in the locker room.
I never claimed to be a better evaluator than you or anyone else..but I have knowledge of the game to not be just a casual fan.
I'm not going to sit up here and say since I'm not in a locker room I do not know how to evaluate any player to any degree based on what I see..
Even you can make a evaluation on a player if you didn't have the contacts you have.
The contacts give you instant access to why a play broke down..or who's mistake it was.
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 07/24/07 02:36 PM.
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Quote:
why not? You're not better than anyone on here.
in fact, I've seen multiple occasions where you've been corrected in the last week, so why should you be considered any better?
Apparently to use sarcasm, it must be accompanied with a smiley. But I'm glad again, you're coming after me on here.
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Without a smiley or some other visual indicator, it looked an awful lot like gross arrogance instead of sarcasm. The written word doesn't convey vocal inflection or manerisms that otherwise might clue one into it being one instead of the other, so to avoid having yourself misunderstood, you should perhaps attempt to communicate your intent better 
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I learned that the REEEEAAALLL hard way in the Ommish shooting thread......that sucked. 
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Because the guy who yesterday was saying "Ken Dorsey for Jesus in 2008" is going to proclaim his opinion as the end all be all?! If you spend more than a half of a minute, you would see I'm a pretty light hearted guy on here, who just enjoys the Browns adn this board.
I would recommend you not be concerned that I am using this board as a spring board for my site, which I am NOT doing, and maybe lighten up on me? (Insert appropriate smiley)
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Dude use the post icons below the spot when you form your posts..lol
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 07/24/07 03:09 PM.
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No offense purple but I think the sarcasm was pretty obvious considering so many people have picked apart his opinions. Rightfully so, I should add.
#gmstrong
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I get the stats stuff bro, you're preaching to the choir.
I find them interesting even when they're meaningless...I like determining when stats are meaningless or putting them into context. I simple enjoy reading Mensa's post and didnt see the need for you to try and discredit him - maybe I missed that, if so excuse me.
I never said you claimed to be a better evaluator than me...
But, if Mensa likes to use stats to make his evaluation - that's no better/worse than you using your eyes. Which was my original point.
Like I said, you could be the best evaluator of football in the world, but unless you know the play calls and assignments it's tough to make an accurate evaluation.
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Right, because "Ken Dorsey for Jesus in 2008" could possibly be mistaken as anything other than sarcasm?  Look, you made a statement, and as a result of its intent being poorly communicated it was taken wrong and as a result it spawned another statement. We both erred, Get over it.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Get over it? I wasn't the one who made it a big deal! Geeze, did I sleep with an ex-GF of yours?!
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Quote:
Now you claim it was a drunken rant when you came on here and blasted Frye for not being any good because he wouldnn't give you an autograph. That might be true but you continue not to type Frye's name makes you look silly and immature.
This is where Ammo's hate comes from?
A "grown man" getting upset that another grown man wont sign a piece of paper for him? Truly pathetic...
I'm sure Ammo thought Chuck owed him something - after all he thinks the team owes him an aoplogy after a loss.
I cant believe people are actually like this...boggles the mind.
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In Ammo's defense he did say he typed it s a drunken rant. I don't really know what he said about Frye before the rant so he could have felt that way for sometime. I find it hard to take him serious with the refusalto type his name and then him pimping Troy Smith in the first round. 
#gmstrong
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Quote:
and then him pimping Troy Smith in the first round.
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general reply:
The reason I have completely given up on Frye is the insane decision making especially in the red zone and at the end of games. i have seen 6th grade quarterbacks with better poise in the pocket and decision making.
Its not that i think Anderson is the best thing since sliced bread. Hell i think attack summed it up perfect with Dilfer with less deep ball accuracy. Folks we have major issues at QB and thats why we gave up so much to get Quinn. If anyone believed we had the answer on this roster we wouldnt have tried to trade up to the #1 overall for Russell then given up next years #1 and our #2 this year for quinn.
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Peter King Makes Me Smile 4. Brady Quinn. Every one knows it's going to take some time for Lane Kiffin to get JaMarcus Russell ready in Oakland, but Quinn is widely considered more pro-ready, even if he was drafted 21 picks lower. All I can say about Quinn is this: His holdout had better not be too long, because those fans in Cleveland will not easily forgive him if he stays away until Aug. 28, ruining his chance to contribute before Thanksgiving. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/peter_king/07/22/vick/index.html
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This i certainly agree with. Quinn has all the stars aligned but a holdout following two blunders of an autograph session will turn him into the guy everyone loves to hate. Privilege and entitlement arent something that goes over well with the blue collar fanbase. I shouldnt have fallen in the draft therefore pay me top 10 money aint gonna cut it. It will get nasty if he isnt there when the vets show.
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Right on Dawg !
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Quote:
He goes in the top 10 like expected and Frye moves up possibly even to the first round at GB's spot as they were supposedly very hot on him. If not first then definately 2nd.
Sorry man....don't buy it.
What round was he selected?
I guess in a rhetorical sort of way, everybody except for 32 guys fall out of the first round.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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