DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Kizer rnd. 4

I see all the talk of Kizer improving, and he has, marginally. Still below 60% completion, still can't score...though i give him a pass on the coleman throw. But the reality is he's still last or next to last in every single category. i mean he's thrown for a whopping 5 TDs. I know people want him to be the guy, but I'm not putting my eggs in that basket for next year. You have to draft one or two QB's next year if you don't get one in FA. Then you try to develop Kizer properly. Hue has done Kizer no favors this year with his horrid playcalling, and yoyoing of the playing time. For being this supposed QB whisperer, I think Hue has done more to set Kizer back than anything. With a proper coach I think you see Kizer take a step forward ala Goff. But as it stands right now, we need someone more NFL ready. I like Kizer, I think he's a good kid, he's just not ready at this point and he has an idiot for a HC/OC

Generally, I agree. Although seeing improvement from Kizer, I'm not as high on his improvement as others. Still holds the ball too long, is still inaccurate, and still is not making big plays in the redzone. That last part may have an influence from Hue and play selection, but you can't blame him when Kizer's thrown so many INTs.

So, he's improving, but the knock on him is that he isn't perfect, yet?
lol, seems reasonable

I think some folks should take a few minutes to realistically evaluate what their own expectations are and in just what sort of timeframe they think is reasonable for that to happen.


And, yes, there is no way we should skip taking a QB in the Draft. Maybe two. And we should see what we can get in Free Agency. In short, we should come out of the 2018 season with that position settled for the next 10 years.

Well my expectations are, that it's not enough improvement to not look at a QB #1 in the draft. I think that's pretty reasonable.

I'm all in on drafting two QB's .. Problem : I don't trust anyone presently employed by the Organization to make the picks .. lol

I've felt that way about everyone in Berea since 1999 when it comes to the QB position, but somebody has to be the blind squirrel eventually.

I think you are being reasonable.

Kisser is improving, but most people knew he had such a long way to go. It's too early to say he is the guy or is not the guy.

I also think drafting a qb in round 1 is reasonable and logical.

I think these concerns are somewhat overblown.

Throwing below 60% - He's 166/313. 53%. He would be at 60% with 22 more complete passes on the year. That's 2.2 passes per game. That's such an infinitesimal difference, especially when accounting for the state of our receivers and that he's being dragged down still by issues he had early in the season.

5 touchdowns - He also has 5 rushing touchdowns, which is tied for the most in the league for quarterbacks with Newton and Prescott. I hate that his athleticism puts him at a disadvantage. He shouldn't be punished for that. He's got 10 touchdowns total in 10 games. Meanwhile, Trubisky has 4 touchdowns in 7 games but nobody says he can't score.

Marginal improvement - He's taken significant strides in every aspect of his game, and it has led to increased production against better defences than that which he faced at the beginning of the season. He's more accurate, his feet are faster, he's more poised against the rush, more confident in the pocket, he's turning the ball over less, he's hitting the deep passes more consistently, he's getting the ball out faster, he's more consistently going through his progressions and doing so faster, he's not locking on to intended targets the way he did.

He just put 300 yards on Cinci and most people shrug like he did nothing. He had moments like that beautiful touch pass that Coleman dropped. He started out with a great deep pass after identifying the blitz, shifting Duke's protection, adapting to the pressure and throwing a great deep strike with a rusher in his face. He's not perfect but he's flashing these impressive moments while still being just a 21 year old kid - he's only a few months older than the likes of Rosen and Mayfield.

I am not trying to take away Kizer's deserved credit for the hard work we know he puts in, but Hue is part of these improvements. Hue has helped guide him the entire way, and Kizer speaks volumes of his coach for it. They are clearly both starting to trust each other more, and it is paying off.

Deshone has come a long way, and Hue deserves a tip of the hat for what he's done with a kid fresh out of college.

I would bet if we asked Deshone what he wants next year, he'd back Hue 100%.

Link 1



Link 2



Link 3

I read that wrong.

This is EXACTLY the line of thinking I go through when looking at the team and NOT wanting anyone to get fired. Simply spot on. I think many of the D players would feel/be the same way with GW. There is a lot of very good things going on here and hopefully we give the plan another year +. (Disclaimer: I am absolutely taking a QB in Rd 1...regardless of my agreement with your comments on Kizer.)

That throw to Coleman might have been his best pass yet. Not just the touch but the overall effort by him on that play. Very well done.

Here is to a furry little guy with dark glass's !

GP.

I think its impossible to know whether or not Kizer is the 'guy' right now.

But I don't see how that leads to wanting to draft a QB in the 1st round.

The rookie QB as franchise savior is a myth.
It takes a team, and the pieces to produce stellar rookie season QB play simply didn't exist on this roster.

Football is a team sport with interdependent parts. No rookie QB was going to sauntering in and save the day with the current level on talent. None. I wish it was possible to sentence the current Rosen or Mayfield to Kizer's current level of Browns talent.

I don't think it is wise to make blanket statements.

Many people thought that Philly was going to be worse than us last year. I even bet one guy. Wentz has made the Eagles soar in the standings.

The Rams sucked for years. They sucked last year, but in year two they have climbed to higher grounds.

Didn't Andrew Luck lead Indy's one-year turnaround?

Houston was playing very well w/Watson. They suck w/out him.

I am not saying it always works, but I disagree w/your blanket statement. Unless you already have a franchise guy, I think you draft a qb high provided you think he is going to be a franchise QB.

Houston made the playoffs in 2016 with Brock Osweiler at QB...and actually won a playoff game...with Brock Osweiler. That team is very good outside of who is at QB. They would be in the playoffs again even with a turd like Brock Osweiler at QB. That team is the perfect destination for a young QB.

Indy was one-year and a Peyton Manning removed from being a consistent playoff team. In Manning's last year playing for the Colts, the Colts won their 7th Divisional Title of the previous 8 years. They were already built for success when they tanked for Luck after Manning's neck gave out. That team was a perfect destination for a young QB.

Philly had/has way more talent than anyone really knew and Wentz has flourished under the direction of Pederson. The success between those two makes me optimistic for Hue/Kizer. I'm surprised at Wentz' success so early in his career. I think Pederson's handling of Wentz made that marriage a perfect destination for a young QB.

The Rams removed their coach-cancer after Goff's first year and had made smart draft picks and picked up some help in FA. Goff WAS after-all the highest rated QB coming out last year...he had talent. Wade Philips was just what the doctor ordered for that team and the new HC. I think a Jeff Fisher coached team was an awful destination for a young QB. The Rams figured that out pretty quickly.

I agree that a team takes a QB high when they are uncertain at that position and have a shot a top-rated guy...OR...they stockpile a boatload of picks and work towards getting "the right QB" once they actually have some semblance of a support system around said QB.

Kiser has faced more adversity in 10 games than any QB should and has held up well. He's only 21 trying to lead a team that has a history of ineptness. He was forced to play before he was ready then benched several times. His coach tried to trade for his replacement midway through the season. He has had the worst set of WRs in the league and has led the league in turnovers. Yet he still has managed to show enough improvement to get our hopes up. Kiser could have regressed like just about every QB we've had since Bernie but to the contrary he's getting better. He has a ways to go but he has shown enough to make me think we might have something. I would still draft a QB high if one is worthy and let them compete next summer.

Every team that drafts a QB, especially early in the draft, think's that QB is going to be a franchise QB. No team drafts a QB thinking......meh

Given an adequate sample size and given a situation where it possible to know if a team has a 'franchise' guy sure.

But, given this extremely small sample size on a team ill-equipped to even showcase whether or not a rookie QB is a 'franchise' guy then how can you possibly know?


Lets say:
a rookie QB is water
a franchise QB is a boiling pot of water
the team around them is a pot on a stovetop.
You know your pot and stovetop aren't capable of heating water up to the 212 degrees required to boil water

In the situation above you wouldn't don't blame the water for not boiling and buy more water.

Maybe that's not the best analogy but you get the point.

If the Ram's had a 1st round pick would you have drafted a 1st round QB?

I don't know ed. It's okay we disagree. I just think that the Browns should draft a qb in the first round. Kizer has potential , but it not even close to a sure thing.

I think we will have a decision after the next 5 games are played.

Right now, the decision is easy, you go for the QB, and hope one of them develops.

Kizer has some upside, but there is more downside to his actual performance not to look at other options. He has had some head shaking terrible games, which can be expected. The question is... Can he turn enough heads to make the Browns look to fill other needs.

The return of Gordon and the presence of Coleman changes things a bit in his favor. I hope Drango holds up.

It's all about how he finishes. 2 out of his last 3 has been pretty good but the team has failed him. Looking forward to seeing how he finishes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6dDdJfYB7A

Cool little tape breakdown on Kizer.

Food for thought. Last year we had a much less talented team than this year and Kessler was better than Kizer has been this year.

Go draft a QB.

Good video. It makes me appreciate what he is doing even more.

I just watched the Kizer interview from yesterday after that and I have to say - depending upon how this season ends and how he looks, I think we might be able to skip QB in April.

This kid is INTELLIGENT (and very articulate, which is a sign of his intelligence) and he has all the physical tools you could hope for. I do not believe there is any part of the game that he is not capable of grasping. I think we're simply at a point where he has to build his knowledge base and experience level. He's coming from a place where he had a LOT of learning and growing to do, but ya know what?... the kid is up to it.

I'm really starting to look forward to these last five games!

Interesting take by the narrator...encouraging.

Perfectly okay to disagree, I don't think any of us want to post in a giant echo chamber.

I just don't get the idea of replacing one unknown at the QB with another unknown. Just doesn't seem like a good/wise use of premium draft resources.

And to be clear i'm not saying Kizer is a sure thing just as any 1st round draft pick wouldn't be a sure thing then either. All i'm saying is that right now we don't know......Kizer could be...or not be the 'guy'. Just like any QB drafted could be....or not.

I would want to use those premium picks to improve the overall team talent then hedge on Kizer with another QB selection later in the draft.

Kizer deserves another year. With some quality WRs.

It's impossible to know what we have in him at this point, and he has shown enough to keep going.

This might be redundant, but I'll say it anyway.

There's a big difference between "showing something", and locking down the QB position so we skip a very talented draft class.

I don't think Kizer has shown us enough for us to pass on Rosen/Darnlold, etc.

Until we KNOW we have that guy.. you draft a QB in the first..

1st overall pick and all.

I agree.

The only wiggle room that I'll allow (as much of a say in the matter that I have) is if we go out and land a big-name free agent (Cousins, Smith). In that case, I'll be content with Kizer on the bench learning while the successful vet is out there in the games.

Bingo. We are in a position to pick a franchise guy with that #1 pick and we do not know if we already have a franchise guy. So you pick one if one is there. Until you have one for sure, you need one.

how do you know if you have the guy after 1 season, though?

Carr lost his first 10 games as a starter, should they have drafted a QB the following year?

Goff looked like absolutely garbage last year, should the rams have drafted another QB?

then you flip it. RG3 looked like a future goat his first year. even though they couldn't draft the following year, without hindsight, should they have taken another QB? they knew right up until they didn't, when it all fell apart.

Mariota kept getting injured his first year, should they have drafted another QB the following year?

at some point, we have to give a QB more than a year to make it. Kizer was drafted in the 2nd just like Carr. not saying he's Carr but the situations are somewhat similar, even though the argument can be made he had better talent on offense to work with his rookie season than Kizer does.

he's 21 years old, a bum backup LT, a bum RT, sorry WR's, super raw TE's, oh, and he's a rookie.

Gordon will take this game and maybe next 2 to get into form. with an actual talented WR on the field opposite of Coleman, if he actually starts looking decent, its no longer clear cut if we have to draft a QB next year.

Carr is not a good example. He was drafted in the 2014 draft. The Raiders picked 4th in the 2015 draft. Bucs took Winston #1 overall, Tenn took Marriota #2 so they were off the board. The next Qb taken was Garrett Grayson at pick #75.

They really was no one for the Raiders to even consider. Who knows what they would have done if they had one of the top 2 picks.

Goff was good enough coming out of college that he was taken #1 overall. If we had taken Kizer #1 overall then yes, he would definitely get a 2nd year to develop. Your examples aren't really relative because they are nowhere near the same as the situation we are in.

A closer comparison would be to look at Carolina. They took Jimmy Clausen from ND in the 2nd round then took Cam with the #1 overall the next draft. Should they have passed on Cam to give Clausen a chance?

with all due respect but you're missing alot.

yes, carr was drafted in the 2014 draft. but there were QB that draft they could've taken earlier.

Bortles was the first QB taken off the board at #3. The raiders picked Mack at #5, and Carr at #36.

they could've drafted manziel or Bridgewater, but instead waited until the 2nd round to draft Carr.

as a matter of fact, that passed up on Jimmy Garoppolo that year as well, as he went #62 to the patriots. the board and some draft "experts" said that jimmy G was the better qb over Carr, as well. people also said he was a franchise QB.

So like the browns, they had an opportunity to draft a 1st round guy, but instead waited until the 2nd round to do so.

the 2015 year they took Amari Cooper #4, which is the year Winston and Mariota went #1 and #2.

so what i said was a good example, because the raiders decided to get their guy in the 2nd, and then build around him.

as far as Cam goes, you're only helping my point in that circumstances determines on if you draft your guy the following year after taking one in the 2nd, 3rd round.

which is my point; you can't just take one just to be taking one because the guy you drafted didn't look great as a rookie. you have to taken into everything.

Carr stats were ok, but he threw for less than 60% his rookie year. he was also a 3 year starter in college, and a year or two older than Kizer when he came out.

he had enough talent to be a second rounder in a draft where the raiders had a shot to for sure take two first round talents, or trade up to get bortles. They didn't. why?

that's all i'm saying. just taking a guy just to take him doesn't seem like the right move. especially when have a lack of talent on that side of the ball to begin with. i've never agreed with this idea that you take a QB every year until you find the franchise, because its hypocritical to me.

the same guys who say that, will then turn around and say that you can really call a player a bust or not until the year 3 or late year 2.

but yet a QB, the hardest position in football, can be properly evaluated in one year, not to mention the combined circumstances depending on what team he ends up on?

that's terrible draft strategy, and a waste of resources. which is why if Kizer wins one or two games this year, we aren't drafting a QB in the first round, especially since the FO is all about value, they used a 2nd rounder on Kizer. they feel that you can get a Quality starter in that round. you're suppose to, right? that's still top talent.

i remember the arguments between posters who argued over whether we should give colt mccoy another year vs drafting, who ended up being weeden.

can't just be taking one just to take one, bro.

j/c:

I think a lot of opinions are just that..........opinions. There are no definitive answers at this point in time. I don't think anyone is whacked for wanting to draft a qb w/our top pick and I don't think anyone is whacked for not wanting to draft a qb w/our first pick.

There are no absolutes at this point.

Personally, I draft Rosen w/our first pick if he is available.

I am not now, nor would I ever, suggest to take a guy just because of his position. The impression I got was that you re giving examples to not take a Qb in the 1st. If you are trying to say, don't take a QB just to take one, then I agree. If you are saying we need to give Kizer another year regardless of who is available, then we disagree.

If Qb is there that you deem worthy of the #1 overall pick then you don't pass that up to give Kizer another year. If you don't like any of the Qb's in this year's draft, then you pass.