DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Kizer Rnd 5

I agree with your point and have said the same already in this thread and several other threads.

But, if the different colors of the routes on the image you posted are all variations possible from the same play then you're not describe the average play.

You're absolutely right about the massive amounts of information that have to be absorbed and then made to become second nature. Teams that have been doing it a long time know exactly where everyone is supposed to be (See Brady & Co. or the Steelers).

Ironically, I think this is one area where Hue and Al have done a superb job through the course of the season. We are seeing far fewer mistakes where the WR is out of position and passes are going to areas where they're supposed to be and falling incomplete or going the other way.

Speaking strictly for myself, the disconnect comes from knowing great coaches find ways to simplify their schemes to help young QBs succeed. They run more than throw, they get the ball out of their hand quickly, they help them build rhythm early in games with short throws, they make great use of TEs, and they shrink the playbook. With Hue we see the opposite of all that and it's not working.

I think he's a good coach. I think he can succeed here. I think he needs a good QB, and more offensive weapons, and I think his defense needs to get better. It's just that when he doesn't do the above (and we've all been watching long enough to know that those are things that can be done to help a young QB) it infuriates many of us. Bottom line, he's not doing himself, Kizer, the team, or the fanbase any good by not applying those simple principles.

I get your frustrations with all the head calling for Hue, and I understand the frustrations from fans who only see 1-27. I think we're an offseason away from 5-11 and climbing, but if Hue doesn't do something to show that he can go out and win a game with the talent he has, he may not be here to see it. That would terrible in my view, because then we are just starting over, and who in the hell wants to go through that yet again?

JMHO

I don't think the scheme or the playcalling are the problem. I more question the installation of the scheme and the ability to call plays that the players are actually good at running.

That's my main reason for wanting to keep Hue. Eventually we're going to get through the installing phase (hopefully). If we fire him, we'll have to go through an installation phase with a new system. I'd prefer to reap some of what we are sowing rather than salting and burning the field and replanting a new one. I think Hue does a lot well (motivating, teaching fundamentals, designing plays, etc.), but actually getting the system up and running from scratch seems to be somewhat a weak point.

It's also one reason I am somewhat hesitant to draft a QB. A new QB will have to install a very complex system all over again (if we keep Hue), and QB is the one position that affects everyone else. Hue hasn't shown a propensity for getting rookies ready quickly during his time here. If he struggles again next year in the W-L column, I don't see any way he survives.

If Hue is fired (is that better?), none of this will be the reason.

Exactly. If we fire Hue and bring a new guy in....we will have to read about how great the new guy is and how all of our problems were about Hue and what an upgrade the new guy is. We will also hear how we gotta give the new guy time to implement his system and fix all of Hue's mistakes.

Then, in a year and a half, there will be yet another campaign to fire that guy and start over again.

Enough!

I don't think there is 'problem' other then the team is going through a total rebuild and its basically in year 2 of a 5 year plan.

So when people say thee 'problem' is Hue or playcalling or Kizer etc.
Imho there is no "problem" outside of the current talent on the roster.

Being critical and willing to discuss all aspects of the team including Hue and the playcalling doesn't mean I believe the playcalling is 'thee' problem or I think Hue should be fired. I don't think either is true.

Even with the best playcalling in the world this team would still be struggling to win games. But at the same time there are aspects of the playcalling that imho are sub-optimal. I can like Hue want him to return and still see some areas where I believe he has made mistakes.

That's fair, ed. In fact, it's the way it should be.

I just have seen this movie before w/many of the same actors. I don't include you in that group.

Agreed.

That's part of playcalling/game planning though.

This goes back to the offseason conversation about whether or not Hue should hire an offensive coordinator.
I know coaching offense and QB is Hue's baby but I 100% believe that the offense would be better if Hue wasn't the offensive coordinator and playcaller. Heck, this year Andy Reid gave up playcalling...other playcaller's have given it up and regrouped after letting someone take the reigns.

Ideally I would want some younger that can be 'just' the coordinator and not the playcaller but the good OC's will want to call plays.

I can't think of anyone better then.....
2018 Browns offensive coordinator?


my next choice would be Mike McCoy...(he might actually agree to coordinate without calling plays)



but I digress to much...........

I would love Norvy as an OC. I think he did a really good job despite the situation when he was here. I don't think it'll happen, though. The offense is Hue's baby, and I don't think he'd let Norvy implement what he would want.

Ver's when I played we didn't have an option. You ran the play. Ya I know I was 5'11 maybe a buck 80. But I ran a 12 second 100 in full gear

The thing I'm trying to get across is the couch kept calling for me to do a z out. I noticed the hb moving to my outside. I came back and told the coach the hb is shading me to the outside the z in will be wide open.

He called the z in 50 yd td. Then he started calling wr slants now I was getting 5-7 yds per pass. I came back and said coach the whole defensive backfield is pulling over to take me out. The te will be wide open in the enzone. Bam noone within 15 yds td.

Hey nor, where did you play HS ball at? If you don't wanna say on the board [I get why not] but can you PM me?

This was all I needed to see to know this post was clueless.

Probably your most insightful football post yet.

You don't need to write a dictionary to have a firm grasp of the obvious.

And you sure don't need more than sentence to show it is a grasp beyond your reach.

Yeah, almost 50 years of watching and breaking down football mean nothing. You put extra men in the box you have more people to help stop the run. It's basic math 101. Everyone knows this.

Just because you wrote 500 words won't change that. Get a grip.

Could you suit up and help Hue, please? He might listen to you. He or Kizer kill us down there. Bad judgment vs. bad execution too often.

Suit up!

Having more men in the box means nothing if they're dropping in zones to play coverage responsibilities. Simply being in the box does not mean you're schematically focused on playing against the run. I hope you enjoyed math 101, because you missed football 101.

I mean, really? You've watched football for 50 years and never once noticed something like, I don't know, showing blitz before dropping off in to coverage? You've never actually known that's a stacked box with coverage focus?

Especially when, as I pointed out, LA consistently were playing safeties and corners at the line backer spot. That should given you some hint at their focus.

LA knew exactly what they were doing. Hue Jackson will continue to have an unbalanced passing attack, so stack up on DBs, show low, defend high. Go watch the game again and notice their coverage depth.

Huh, you're right, I didn't need 500 words. Go back to non-football posts, please, I miss the insults already.

I have noticed things like that but that's not what's happening. It hasn't been happening for years with anyone who plays us! Period.

We haven't had a legitimate QB in almost forever. Our opponents know that. They ALWAYS focus on stopping our run game and focus on forcing us to pass the ball.

To believe otherwise would mean you believe NFL HC's are complete morons. They're not. Anyone who knows the game and has been watching our team since the return knows this.

I've been posting on football threads since this place started and I'll be doing it long after you're gone. Bank on it Skippy.

Here’s what NFL talent evaluators love/loathe about QB prospects Rosen, Darnold, Allen and Mayfield

Yahoo Sports Charles Robinson,Yahoo Sports 13 hours ago

In June, a group of NFL personnel men stood on the sideline of Nicholls State University, having made the annual pilgrimage to watch the next wave of quarterback talent at the Manning Passing Academy. Watching from afar – and with players lacking names on their shirts – one player with prototypical tools and a lofty draft status began drawing steady criticism.

“Who’s the kid with the big windup?” one longtime NFL evaluator asked, settling among a group of friends and focusing on a reddish blonde camp counselor with a zippy arm and ideal frame.

“That’s [Sam] Darnold,” an NFC personnel man answered.

The two raised their eyebrows at each other. Darnold’s delivery was unquestionably long, dropping the football down and backward with regularity. It was adding fractions of time to his delivery, separating the USC star from the crowd based on a concerning mechanical flaw.

“You can have him,” the NFC personnel man concluded within the group. “Loopy motion. Bad face. Overrated.”

Months later, this Darnold deliberation is just getting started, epitomizing what will be another hotly debated NFL quarterback class. Yahoo Sports spoke to seven NFL evaluators who have either seen the quarterbacks live (in games or offseason camps), or watched tape on potential picks in the coming draft. The consensus of the group is that at least four quarterbacks will settle into the first round of the 2017 draft: Darnold (if he declares), UCLA’s Josh Rosen, Wyoming’s Josh Allen and Oklahoma’s Baker Mayfield.

Louisville’s Lamar Jackson also drew consideration, although the consensus appeared to place him somewhere in the second round.

Asked to shape up the group, including a pecking order, this is how the potential 2017 crop of first-round picks ranks going into bowl season:



Rosen’s natural ability as a passer is universally loved. Two evaluators who knocked Darnold’s throwing motion after watching him firsthand in the Manning Passing Academy this past summer both raved about watching Rosen at the same event in June of 2016.

All seven evaluators shared one common thread with Rosen: His throwing motion and release are basically as elite as it gets for a prospect. They raved about his fluidity and how he spun the ball effortlessly. “He can really spin it” was said repeatedly.

There was agreement that Rosen’s footwork is sound with a clean pocket but that he can get loose in his discipline – both in decisions and mechanics – when he’s flushed out of the pocket or trying to make something happen. There also appeared to be universal agreement that Rosen is the likeliest “start from Day 1” guy in the class.

The negatives that came up were consistent: He has an underlying arrogance about him that can rub some the wrong way; he has a little bit of a party reputation off the field (though not to the point of serious concern); and his work habits and leadership have room to grow.

From a football perspective, there was concern about his penchant to force bad throws rather than just getting rid of the ball. But a few evaluators were very critical of the offensive talent around Rosen, suggesting it cornered and forced him to make things happen.



Darnold’s leadership, athleticism and improvisation were the key takeaways. Evaluators said it was clear that he makes a lot of plays based on his natural instincts and ability. But there was some immense concern about his throwing motion, which may take some work over a sustained period. Darnold worked on the motion in the offseason, but one evaluator said he has reverted to his long release and even with work, it may be what feels most natural to him. The same evaluator said Darnold’s release can work, so long as it’s not too slow – which, at this point, it doesn’t seem to be. It remains a solid point of contention between evaluators. Some think it’s a big deal. Others feel it’s workable.

Another evaluator believed Darnold had a penchant for bailing on the pocket too often, criticizing his “taking off” at the first opportunity.

The opinions on Darnold’s development were also scattered. A few evaluators thought he could be a first day starter, while others said he needs to have a bridge quarterback protecting him from having to come in and play immediately. But it was clear that all seven evaluators thought Darnold had a lot of development left ahead of him – meaning that the right coaching staff will be important.

As for whether he could still be the first quarterback taken over Rosen, one evaluator summed it up best: “He’s not a better pure passer than Rosen, but if Darnold goes [first in the class], it’s because someone fell in love with his athleticism and longer-term upside as a package. He’ll probably do really well in interviews with staffs.”



Allen is going to be a significant wild card in the mix. The consistency that evaluators rave about his size/arm/skills is striking. But there are a lot of “project” concerns, too. One evaluator called continued comparisons to Philadelphia Eagles quarterback Carson Wentz “insulting,” noting that Wentz had a mental acuity and “feel” that Allen doesn’t share. Another said Allen will be a top 20 lock largely because of his size and arm strength, similar to what floated Joe Flacco’s stock coming out of Delaware in 2008.

Overall impressions were that Allen has a future as a big downfield passer but tries to fire a cannon too often. He’s unpolished in the short or intermediate game and is more about power than perfect ball placement. But even with that, there is an aspect that everyone agreed could propel Allen into a real debate with Darnold and possibly Rosen at the top of the draft: When he throws in shorts, he has the ability to blow you away. He looks like a monster prospect in workouts because of his arm and ability to move at 6-foot-5 and 230 pounds. One evaluator said it was Allen – and not Darnold – who was the talk of the Manning Passing Academy in 2017.

“When I walked in [to the Manning Passing Academy], the first thing I heard was, ‘The most impressive guy here is Josh Allen.’”

There seems to be little debate that Allen could light a fire in the draft process, particularly if he can qualify for a Senior Bowl appearance and show well. But at least one evaluator had a frightening warning about getting too excited: “JaMarcus Russell looked like an All-Pro in his workout [at LSU], and Allen has some of those same physical abilities. He’s going to be eye-candy for guys who fall for the great workouts.”



Mayfield is going to have to work out well and ace his interviews – which will feature a lot of probing questions meant to test his maturity. Don’t be surprised if you persistently hear the Johnny Manziel comparison attached to Mayfield. In a half-compliment/half-swipe, one evaluator said, “I think he’s a lot like a physically built-up Johnny Manziel. That’s what he looks like when I watch him.”

That’s where some of the disagreements come in. Some like his football aptitude and throwing ability – not to mention that he can make the necessary NFL throws. Others were put off by Mayfield’s immaturity (his embarrassing drunken arrest video in which he ran from the police; the crotch-grabbing on national TV; the flag-planting against Ohio State; the trash-talking with opposing players).

Said one evaluator, “There’s a difference between being a fiery guy and being an emotional hothead. Mayfield is probably both. That could still be OK if he’s more of a leader and less of a hothead.”

Of the quartet, Mayfield will likely get the most off-field and locker room work when it comes to character (though to be fair, Rosen will get his share, too). Evaluators like his skills and smarts as a football player, and his leadership and work ethic all got positive reviews. But the height will continue to be a big hurdle, especially if there are any other perceived drawbacks. As one evaluator said, “There are more guys his size who have shown you can be successful starters [in the NFL], but let’s be honest: For every Russell Wilson, there are 100 guys who didn’t make it.”

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/heres-nfl-t...-015850432.html

listening to the radio, the guys said Hue and Sashi haven't been on speaking terms for the last 6 weeks.

That's deeply concerning. For both men. Acting like a child for over a month is ugly. Shows zero professionalism or integrity for your position.

I hope that's hyperbole from the guys on Radio.

I think that graphic symbolizes what people mean when they say that Hue is not coaching to the talent he has available. To use my inner Diam: He's giving seventh-graders advanced Calculus when they haven't yet taken Algebra I.

Fact that Sachi din't make a good job(starting with the Coach hire) ,does not mean Hue is doing his, quite the contrary..

They both deserve to be fired..

The solution to retain Hue is completely absurd...

That or those who are inside the building, working with the team day to day understand the problem much better than we do.

New GM comes in "wow, Kizer really sucks" Kizer gone in steps Rosen.

Hue saying everyday "I need a veteran QB". And Sashi releasing a starting veteran QB and botching deals to get veteran QB's.

That doesn't surprise me at all.

=> New coach comes in "wow, Rosen really sucks", Rosen gone in steps some other highly touted QB who isn't enough to fix the problems caused by constant turnover.



Welcome to the new Browns, same as the old (recent) Browns.

I wonder what the perception would be Wentz, Goff, Watson if their starting receivers were Kenny Britt, Ricardo Louis and Hollywood Higgins.

Suit up! That's funny. I played in the late 60's. I'm 65 going on 66 and I use a cane. I may have been fast at one time. 100 yds now would take me 3-4 minutes.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...ve-coordinator/

Here are my coaching staff candidates:

Norv Turner (can't see someone of Norv's ilk being the coordinator but not playcaller)
Mike McCoy (coordinator, possible playcaller)
Ken Zampese (coordinator only, non-playcaller)
Greg Olson (coordinator, possible playcaller)
Jeremy Bates (coordinator only)
Byron Leftwhich (QB coach)

NFL ready?

That means he'll have better stats than RG3's rookie year, right?

First of all... thank goodness he's thinking about hiring an OC for next year (unless he's just trying to get people off his back). If we're only going to take away one thing, I think it's that he's finally going to hire an OC.

But if you think about it, this statement really stinks.
1. He's really throwing his players under the bus (something he's unfortunately known to do from time to time). His players (offensive players, in particular) can't be too happy to hear this.

2. If you're so bad, wouldn't it make sense to get the OC then? I mean, you try to mitigate poor talent with more coaching, right?

Brady Quinn was super-duper NFL ready.

1. I think it was a moment of unadulterated candor and a not so subtle jab at Sashi. As I've said before in regards to evaluating Kizer...when your starting WRs are Kenny Britt, Ricardo Louis and Hollywood Higgins the passing game is going to struggle.

2. Yeah its fuzzy logic there because it takes more coaching not less to coach up a talent limited roster. I think he's giving himself an excuse for not having a OC when he needed one.