DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Kizer Rnd 5

? You're gonna have to be less cryptic.

Before going into specific game situations and plays it would interesting to look into the overall game plan and philosophy.

This season so far we have played with 4 of the best pass D in the league.

#1 Jax : We pass 66%
#2 Pit: pass 54%
#3 Bal: pass 66%
#5 LAC: we pass 60%

And we have played with 2 of the worst run D's in the league:
#2 LAC: We run only 40%
#5 Cin: We run 50%

So far this season we have passed 443 times and rushed 291 60%/40%, just for comparison NE is 54%/44%, and the Bears 38%/62% and Eagles 52%/48.

Cleveland is the 5th team with most pass attempts, and the 10th team with fewest rush.

Meanwhile we the 10th Pass O and the 14th Run O in the league (and somehow keep on discussing the QB problem).

We are also the 6th rushing D and the 17th Passing D.

If anything we can take from from the stats is that we are never, ever going to win a shoot-out game. Our game plans should be designed to slugg it-out.

Apparently we have a run O problem, to the extent that we rather pass the ball than run against the top pass d in the league and the worst Run D's.

Nothing has been done to address the running game, we continue to persist with the same players/philosophy. Apparently we solve the running game by replacing QB's....

All and all, and IMHO the running game problem reflects the inability of the team to execute, much more than the lack of talent... Also puzzling to be so dependent on the passing game, with such lack of quality on the WR's (with the exception of Gordon)...

Either Hue is mad or he is a genius, because this makes absolutely no sense. Chargers and Jax games, are a perfect example.

Unless the plan has always been to draft Saquan #1 and accelerate Kizer's development this year...

Eo,but if the problem is QB play, why do you even put the game on his hands...

That is my issue with the game plans and overall identity of the team.

I never expected much this season, but I did expect to end this season with a respected Run D and a viable Run O....

I just went back and read the play by play of the Chargers game just to see...

I might be off a tad but the difference is glaring.


1st Half:

Runs: 13 (3 Kizer runs)
Pass: 15


2nd Half:

Runs: 8 (2 Kizer runs)
Pass: 27


Like I said I did it quick so I might have missed one. I mentioned the Kizer runs because they could have been by design or scrambles, I didn't re-watch the game.

And we were only down 9 which came late in the 3rd. I also didn't investigate but I feel the Chargers dominated the clock in the second half as well...

Cleveland Browns Scribbles: Hue Jackson, DeShone Kizer, a shocking stat -- Terry Pluto

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2017/12/cleveland_browns_scribbles_hue.html

10. I thought the Browns rarely threw the ball when Kizer was under center (as opposed to the shotgun). But I never bothered to research it. Joe Ginley (Dawgs by Nature) looked at the video of the Browns 19-10 loss to the Chargers. Kizer was under center 10 times, and only threw the ball once.

11. Ginley's research led to me to check how often Kizer has thrown the ball when under center this season. In 11 games, he is 20-of-45 passing (44) percent with one touchdown and SIX interceptions! That's right, SIX of his 45 passes when under center have been picked off! By comparison, it's nine interceptions in 300 passes from the shotgun. Those stats are from Profootballreference.com.

12. You don't need an advanced degree in football analytics to see why Kizer now rarely throws the ball when under center. It also is why defenses will put so many players on the line of scrimmage when Kizer is under center -- daring him to throw.

13. Kizer played in the spread offense in college, rarely under center. That is one of the many adjustments he's had to make in the pros, and it's been hard on him.

14. Kizer has fumbled eight times this season, losing five. He had only five fumbles in 25 games at Notre Dame, so it's not an old problem. It's an NFL problem that happens when being hit harder than ever before.

Eo, I honestly think the overall strategy for this season was wrong, and that falls also on Hue.

You cannot put the season on a QB prospect and then blame the QB. If the overall strategy was to rely on the passing game we should have never cut Barnidge,and we should have signed/drafted a #1 WR.

We should also have a viable option for a change of pace/deep threat RB to challenge the D's vertically and horizontally.

With all said, and taking into consideration that I'm far away from being a Kizer fan, I can add the following:

Kizer is so far,IMHO, the only high profile draft pick where we could recoup most of the investment,probably not the #52, but a 2nd rounder for sure.

Anyone who loves the game, must be intrigued with Kizer's potential. I don't know how he is on the film room and in the locker room, but on the field I don't think he has lost any value, quite the contrary. His potential is amazing IMHO:he is mobile, durable, strong arm. Yes he many times has this ugly terrible passes, but in some of them he has the most beautiful precise balls I've seen here for a long time.

All and all we, the Browns Fans, should be praising and glad we have Kizer, and asking for the team to do the best to develop him.

AndI beg to disagree but the game plan, and game calling against Jax was asinine to say the least.

Wow, that is quite eye opening, and it certainly speaks to the "development" argument.

I wonder how many of those UC interceptions came on play-action fakes. I remember the interception to Telvin Smith did against the Jaguars.

I wonder if he's not yet well experienced when it comes to locating defenders after dropping with his back to the defense.

And speaking about Hue, IMHO the fact he started a player with very little practice,and with such a bad story and past, speaks volumes on the consideration he has for his players.

I would rather go 0-16, but I would never start Gordon, he wouldn't even suit up until he proved himself to the rest of the players.

Jared Goff and Carson Wentz have 19 wins this season, more wins than any of the other 6 pairs of Quarterbacks to be drafted 1st and 2nd overall in the same year in the common draft era(since 1967) had in their 2nd season. The Rams and the Eagles went after these guys because of great intuition. They were sitting there for Hue to take yet he bet on RG111, the guy the Redskins dumped. Kizer will never be even 40% of what Wentz and Goff are and Hue can't even see that. Kizer's instincts are way too slow and he will never be a franchise QB. Start making other plans now! Darnold or Mayfield. Take Barkley then Mayfield...

Articles like this are why some people reject stats.





Jumping to conclusion like this doesn't follow from the stats. This is nothing more then speculation.

Those stats lead to bunch of questions...but not many conclusions.

I would like to know how often they throw when under center.

How often they use play-action vs drop back.

Was he pressured on the interceptions etc...but I digress.

Back to the Chargers game.

If they're under center 10 times and only throw the ball 1 time it certainly seems like a playcalling issue, especially if the defense is gearing up to stop the run and limiting the success of those 10 rushes.

Those are 10 opportunities to throw against a defined coverage. In college Kizer was one of the best throwing from play action.

And IF Kizer is struggling throwing play-action and passing from the under center AND the running game under center is struggling because teams are loading up because they know the tendency and aren't worried about the pass.....then it begs the question.....

why even have those 10 undercenter plays in the gameplan?

How many snaps did Kizer take under center at ND? How many times did he have to go through his progressions? Heck, the guy did not even have a snap count.

I actually think the stats have some value. His college background has to be a factor in what he is doing as a pro. That isn't me saying he can't improve in those areas. It's me saying that he doesn't have much experience under center and he is understandably struggling due to that experience.

So again, while they are not lock-down stats, they do carry some value. Much more than the dumb stats that Rasta is posting.

Doesn't add up...good OL, decent RBs, raw rookie QB, terrible WRs...let's become a passing team?



Why do you think this? Whenever a team attempts to trade a player especially a player that will be viewed as 'gave up on' the value drops.

Vers, as a player/coach, do you see things that Hue could do (or should be doing) to help Kizer (specifically with his accuracy issues) be more successful on the field? If so, what are they?

If you cannot run, and when you pass more than 60% of the time, what do you think happens when you PA...

I know what I would do if I was a DC and saw any Browns QB under center....

I bet if we had Ingram or Fournett, or even AP carrying, Kizer would be much more effective under center

Was just checking some stats, and when we have Crowell with 595 yds and Kizer with 308 rushing yards...

All you have to do is insist on the player you want and you will get him!!!

Cal, I think Hue and Lee [the QB coach] did a very good job before the season working on Kizer's mechanics.

I think it was a mistake to start him at the beginning of the year. During the season, it's hard to work on such things due to having to put a game plan in.

While I think Kizer's mechanics are better than they were in college, it's pretty easy to see why he reverted back to some of the issues due to him being under fire in games. It's natural for anyone to fall back into comfortable habits.

Cal, I think if Kizer is going to make a big jump, it will come during the off season. I could see Hue and his offensive assistants continue to work on his mechanics, but also spending a ton of time watching video and asking him what his pre-snap reads are? Also, roll the video a bit and ask him what he sees post snap. What are his progressions? Who might break open? [anticipation.] Who might close too fast [anticipation again.]

I think he will need a ton of work under center during OTA's and the camps. I also think that they need to start timing him [if they already haven't] about making quicker decisions. Standing in the pocket has to stop.

I feel that the Browns have two good teachers in Hue and Lee. We really couldn't ask for much better in regards to mentoring our young qbs.

This is how we make Hue a better HC and kizer a better QB

I want to try this again. Take a look at this route tree.



[/quote]

I am not asking for anyone to really break it down. Just tell the first thing or couple of things that stand out to you.

I am asking because I think it is important when we are evaluating Hue's ability or inability to scheme properly.

Please play.

Thanks for you take on that. So are you seeing (I think I am) Kizer's mechanics breaking down on certain plays, causing some of the inaccuracies? I'm thinking he's rushing to make his throws and reverting to earlier mechanics, but I'm not sure. Have you noticed anything like that?

I'm not a Kizer fan, never was, but I have to confess I'm intrigued with his potential...

And I don't think he has done anything to hurt his status, honestly... Maybe he is a slow learner...He have seen Kizer being Kizer...

Providing he has showed his character, I think there are many teams that would take the risk with him, for a 2nd round.... and not for a starting position...

The guy has an amazing ceiling.... And I'm not even a fan... never could from a ND QB

Just to say, I would never ever start Kizer, not this season and not in the next season....

Nah...I say draft Rosen and Darnold.

One of them saves the franchise overnight.

Sutton and Gordon on the outside, Coleman in the slot.

Wild guess, route trees with options based on defensive reads? One read give a "green" route, a different read "red", so on. So there are four options to the call, depending on the read. Also, dotted line is where the ball is supposed to go (two options). If that's not it, I have no idea.

Hue's schemes are rather brilliant but I dont believe he has been best at implementing. Sometimes a good old fashioned punch in the nose is better than attempting a spinning wheel kick.

What specifically are you asking?

Not as much as I predicted he would. But yeah, he still sometimes is way too open w/his lead hip. That's caused by him stepping too far to the left, especially on throws to the left or to receivers running from the offensive left.

This one might be nitpicking because he is a very tall guy, but I think he stands a bit too upright while in the pocket and his feet are too wide apart. Most of us know that you want to do almost athletic activities from the proverbial athletic stance, which is where the outsides of your feet are shoulder width apart. Watch Kize next game and see if you think his feet are too far apart. Also try to take note if he is sailing balls when this occurs.

Check out these two videos. The second one will probably be boring to some, but it explains what I was talking about. The first one shows the foot alignment, step, and follow through.

Hmmmm.........what's the first thing you notice?

This question might not be for you because you spend a lot of time watching video.

Normally I would say yes, but Saquan leaves me wondering....

After Fournett and Zeke.... I honestly I'm tilting towards Saquan

Thanks for sharing. In my mind I'm thinking it must be mechanical break down because there's such disparity between his beautiful, pinpoint throws and his wildly inaccurate passes, I just don't know.

Yeah, just look at how many options there are. Then, think about all of the inexperience we have at WR, TE, and QB.

The point I was trying to get people to recognize is that while many seem to question the play calling or scheme, I think our lack of experience at the aforementioned positions has a lot to do what we are seeing. Look at all those options. It wouldn't be surprising to think that we have guys making incorrect reads. It's not just the QB, but it's also his receivers.

I think most of us have heard about hot reads and sight adjustments. Now, looking at all those options on one play and then considering the different disguises that defenses are throwing at you, it isn't any wonder why are having some offensive issues.

Thus, I don't think it is play calling and scheme as many are claiming, but more about experience across the board w/the principles in the passing game.

One of the things running QBs struggle with is often to wide of a base as they tend to go a bit wider to get off to a run quicker.

I agree that a top back like Barkley could seriously help put us on the road to recovery, and give us legitimate offensive fire power for years. However, I've done some mocks where we take Barkley at one and best QB of the rest at 7 (8?) and it's worked out, but in all reality it may not with the Giants, Broncos & Colts sitting in between and other teams like Arizona and the Jets who might be willing to trade up. I've convinced myself we need to take our QB at one and take Guise or Chubb later (after WR/FS/CB) if we get the chance. If not, there should be someone there who can help. As much as I like Saquon, this may not be the year to take that type of pick that high.

JMHO

I agree that Kizer's base gets too wide. Lol, however; I don't think it has anything remotely to do with a 'running' QB sterotype that you harbor.

Taller QBs tend to have wider bases and constantly have to work to shorten their stride length and base.