DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Kizer/Hue's 4 Game referendum ;)

Personally I don't believe the next 4 games will determine whether Hue stays or goes or whether Kizer is already a bust.



But I chose that title because some people either already consider Hue/Kizer done and the final 4 games either don't matter or are the only things that might changes some minds.






I have 2 aims for this thread.


I'm seeking an answers to this question:

Do the final 4 games factor in to your opinions of Hue/Kizer or is your mind already made up?








The second aim for this thread is a discussion of the games with a focus solely on the plays from the game.

I think and want Hue to come back next year. I am so far away from being an expert on playcalling and other coaching responsibilities that I won't embarrass myself by putting out a list of do's and don'ts for him.

I think and want Kizer to come back next year... as the backup QB. Whether he loses his job to a Cousins-esque FA (vs an RG3-esque FA... meaning a guy that's actually a credible starting QB) or a legit NFL-ready draft pick. I think Kizer can up his game and make it happen as a starter, but I don't think he can do it in any sort of timetable that works for us right now. As an extension of that, I won't be looking for him to do anything to change my mind, because I don't think that's possible with only 4 games left in the season. To expect him to magically flip that switch now is highly, highly improbable. The kid needs an offseason for his development.

I think Vers said it the best, Kizer needed to sit the entire year to learn, however, he was thrown into the fire and he has played pretty bad. I don't think he was a bust because we took him at the bottom of the 2nd which would have been a steal if he performed better.

That being said if Kizer balls out and throws for like 300 yards 3 touchdown games per game. We still need to draft Rosen at 1 and let Kizer compete with him.

Kizer has run out of time. Anything over the next four games will be too small of a sample to be able to say that he has actually improved. We have to draft a QB at #1.

Hue Jackson's situation is a little more complex. Say we win the next four games, people will have a completely different mindset about the team and how the season went. People will think that the team developed over the last four games and didn't quit on the coach. On the flip side, if we lose the next four with the team getting blown out, then it will be clear that Hue Jackson needs to go. If something in between happens (which is probably the most likely scenario), then things that are going on within the organization will need to be examined.

Kizer reminds me of a giraffe. Throws a 90mph duck with 0 accuracy. Will be out of the league soon. These last 4 games don't matter at all. I didn't want Hue in the first place. I was livid!!!! Then @ 0-8 in 2016, starting all these games with 3 and outs, I want the guy escorted off the premises!!

J/C
It's a catch 22 for me. On one hand, I feel the results from this tear down have been even worse than I figured with plenty of blame to go around. Should this group of front office and coaches get another year to reap the fruits of the potential draft windfall with all those picks? I'm not sure.

On the other hand, is this the time for a new regime, coaching staff, and franchise QB to come in and have the firepower to use those picks for a fast jumpstart in the right direction?

Neither case works if the right people aren't in charge. I don't think we can fire any one person without getting rid of them all. I think the final 4 games can do the most for Hue not to be the fall guy if they go well.

He is 21, he will be like Cardale Jones, backup for many years then he will have a chance to start again.

I doubt he will be out of the league anytime soon. You can't coach arm talent.

Opinions should continue to evolve, but I think both should be back next year. I believe in Hue as a coach and I think Kizer has enough talent to become a good qb. He just has to clean up some mechanics and we will see if can improve on some other things, such as reads, playing under center, throwing the ball on time, etc.

I will get to the second part of your post later.

No. I want Hue back, and I believe Kizer has shown what he can do this year. We're drafting a QB, first round, no doubt in my mind. I think that there will be a very tough competition next TC between Kizer & the new guy. Kizer may even win the job. That would be great, IMO. It would show that the FO & Hue where right about Kizer, and that a year one to year two move is substantial. It would also allow our rookie to sit, and we could start winning games right away. As far as Hue goes, I want to see him under his third year in the system with a good QB, better offensive weapons, and an upgraded defense in year two of GW's scheme.

JMHO

Yep. I don't care if it is four games or the final game, it matters.

Most importantly, neither deserves to go 0-16. Hue has kept this team together remarkably well, and Kizer has given his everything. There is a lot of things someone could say about Kizer, but "He didn't give his all" ain't one of them.

For Kizer, he's going to be competing with someone next year, and these remaining games are his opportunity as a currently uncontested starter to gain experience and build upon his game. He might not get that chance so easily next year, so he needs to make the most of his opportunity.

He's also a 21 year old kid. I'm pissed at him, but I'll never say a good game doesn't mean anything. It always means something. We just don't know. I never imagined that Carson Wentz and Jared Goff would come out in year two looking like MVP candidates with legitimate chances to be a threat in the playoffs. I've said it before; there is every chance he kicks the crap out of a rookie if he really grows from this experience.

As for Hue Jackson, four games is easily enough to change minds. Especially if he can beat Green Bay & Chicago (Very winnable games) and then close out with a shock win over Pittsburgh - who may well rest their starters.

Overall, only Jimmy really knows if these last four games will really have much impact of the long-term chances for these two, but we do know for certain it means everything to them. For their sake, and our sanity, I sure hope Hue and Deshone can win at least one game.

I don't know how anyone can justify bringing back a HC with a 1-27 record that's JMO ... and we need to use the #1 on a QB, there is nobody that that wanted to see Kizer succeed as much as me but he is just to inaccurate to lead this team out of our current situation and that's JMO too ...

J/C

After watching Kizer miss an open JG all game for big plays, I have seen enough of him, sorry. He can become more accurate over the offseason, but you take a QB #1 plain and simple.

Hue, I think gets a raw deal. For one, play calling is overrated. If your players are executing the play you called, you will succeed, if they are not executing the play you called, you will not and people will say you cant call plays. For those saying Hue is a horrible play caller, remember, he was brought here because he was considered AN EXCELLENT play caller.

Do the final 4 games factor in to your opinions of Hue/Kizer or is your mind already made up?


They make up part of the overall opinion, and my mind is not made up. APer Hue, also in the overall opinion are that the FO staff have stripped the roster down the last 2 years, not setting up Hue for success. No OC is also part of it. New DC and system less than a year old is part of it.

For Kizer, without being able to watch games, it sounds like he's improving overall. Coleman and Gordon are back, so we'll see how that helps. Our running game is sub par, that impacts the QB. Joe is out, that impacts the QB. No OC impacts the QB.

To me, I give Kizer another full year as starter. Draft\sign impact offensive players to give him more of an opportunity for success. #1 WR, dynamic RB, LT (if Joe doesn't come back). Draft a QB in round 2 or 3 or later, I'm ok with as I'm not convinced that we have viable backups. Modify the offense to fit the new personnel.

I also give Hue at least one more year - assuming the FO doesn't tear down the roster further. If they do, then 2 more years.

Just to clarify my earlier post, if Kizer does throw for 300 yards and 3 TDs each of the next 4 games, then great. I just don't see how it's possible to flip the switch like that, at this point.

Win or loose all or any of the last four ------

Dose Hue deserve to get a mulligan , NO .. Some of that is because of what the FO did and some is really on him .. They want to sing Kumbya ; then bring in an OC and I will swallow one more season ..

I want the best prospect at every pick .. If Rosen is the best player on the board at #1 ( I don't think so ) then take him .. I am not all that armored with this years Glamour picks at QB .. But there are some interesting QB's coming out this year ( I think ) .. Kiser can earn his spot on the field with the rest of the players.

Any improvement over the next 4 games would have to Gigantic for my opinion to change.

In hindsight we can see our mistakes, what could have been done differently to change this season, but my question is.. were the mistakes part of the plan ? In other words, was the plan to throw Kizer to the wolves with no veterans to assist him, forcing the team to grow up together ? McCowan was dumped, as was RG III and Osweiller. Was the plan to force a young QB and receivers to grow up and emerge as a group ? If so, has it worked sufficiently enough for the Front Office to stay with it, or change it ?

There is a definite youth movement. My perception is that the Front Office wants the team to grow up together. No veterans to assist. The old management theory of "I can teach a chimpanzee to do your job." In this case the chimpanzee is a rookie and our vets are gone.

I am in favor of the youth movement, I have to be. We are too far in to change now. We have to improve in areas where we can, and that includes QB, WR, RB, CB, and FS. I don't think we can do all of that in 1 draft and we have already seen the Front Office's reluctance to sign/resign solid veterans to skill positions.

The next 4 weeks are more about watching growth to determine what positions get drafted first round and what get second round grades and lower. It is also about what what positions will be filled with young Free Agents coming off their rookie contracts. I don't think the decision makers, Front Office or coaching staff, will be affected by these next 4 weeks.

JMHO

What zoo did you go to where you saw giraffes throwing ducks 90 mph?

Even if Kizer improves, I think you still have to pick up another QB. I think that he never should have started week 1 to begin with and that has probably set back his growth, but he still shows enough talent to invest more time in.

GP, and just to be clear....I'm asking whether or not your opinions will be altered based on the last 4 games not the FO.

I want Hue with OC help in the red zone and game planning. I want Kizer to be benched for a true starter next season. Not sure he has an NFL learning curve. But someone better needs to be in there.

Nothing in there will be influencing my opinion. If we win them all, then they should be kept. A great draft with extra help is "last call" and fair in my opinion. Produce wins. There is not much more we can do for the FO and coaches. We did have a great preseason followed by this abomination. Are we better now than against Piitsborg? I think no. But we need to force some issues; get rid of the losing folks. Play hard.

It's imperative this organization takes a QB at #1 overall next year (and get's it right). The Browns cannot afford to have another "Wentz" or "Watson" gaffe.

Kizer is wildly inaccurate. He was a late 2nd round pick they took a chance on. He certainly should remain on the team, however. Wasting another season hoping he magically becomes accurate and develops awareness is just that, another wasted season.

As far as Hue goes, he's not alone in the boat. It's the entire regime. 1-31 or even 2-30 does not survive in the NFL. Fair or not, everyone has a golden parachute and will land on their feet.

My biggest concern moving forarwd (not to sidetrack your thread, Ed) is can Jimmy Haslam remove himself from football operations? Much like the Giants hired Acorsi to search for their next GM/HC. The Mara/Tisch family understand they know what they do not know. Haslam cannot be involved (other than signing checks) if this franchise is to succeed.

With all due respect if you didn't intend to sidetrack the thread then you wouldn't...you know?

Anyhow...its all good. I take it the final 4 games don't matter to you?

Man I cant believe some dawgs here think that KIZER is anything but a horrible loser QB.
IMO They should be playing Hogan to see what hes got after all this season is tanked anyway if he stinks it up to then they should have a clue on their QB situation but that may be to practical for the FO.....j\c

Just say no to Hogan Homers.

There's reasons why he isn't starting.

Come on Eve.....Flattop isn't very good.

Winning 1 or 2 games doesn't mean much at this stage to me, so no, it wouldn't give me the warm and fuzzies.

The only chance they have at winning is against a Rodger-less GB or a struggling Bears team.

I anticipate 1-15 or 0-16.

Kizer might improve his accuracy. I wish it wasn't such a glaring issue, but it is. Our FO will take a QB early, probably with our first pick, in the 2018 draft.

I don't pretend to understand Kizer's hair.

But he is a lot better than our other current options.

Anyone who disagrees isn't being honest with themself.

I have to admit that after this last game, I have some doubts.

But really, if you draft someone, then you have to give the rook a chance and it takes more than one season. He's a WIP.

QB is the most difficult position. Our players at the other skill positions get more than a year. So, seems he should also.

My mind IS made up on both. That takes nothing away from the importance of the last four games.

Of course the last four games matter - especially for a rookie QB. Kizer was done a huge disservice the day McCown was cut, another the day Brock was sent packing, leaving him as one of three QBs with virtually no NFL experience. In our infinite wisdom - our next move was to throw him to the wolves week 1 vs Pittsburgh. Has he had enough time to pass the "eye test"? Yes. Has he passed? No, not really. He's shown glimpses but they're few and far between. That said, he's been on a team all but devoid of talent at WR. The last four weeks with a healthy Coleman and the freak known as Josh Gordon will help us all be a better judge. Does that mean the game will finally "slow down" for him? Maybe not, but that changes nothing for me... DeShone Kizer IS who I thought he was - a young kid with a great arm who was put into the worst position imaginable to evaluate his NFL future. Kizer will be doing exactly what I expected next June - competing for a starting gig in the NFL. He's worked hard, he doesn't pout or play the blame game, he's got a great arm and a decent shot at a future in the NFL. Pretty much where you would expect most 2nd round QBs to be after one season.

Hue Jackson needs to keep this team playing for him for the final four weeks or it won't matter what I think. As long as that happens, Hue is back and deserves to be back. That's not "a 1-27 coach getting a pass", that's a coach deserving to progress with a team that's spent nearly two seasons with "1-27 talent"... and an organization that can't afford the chaos of another coaching change. I'm pretty sure Hue is who I think he is... An above average coach who has a chance to be "reeeally above average". Will he ever be great? Doubt it. Can he take us to the promised land? Fat chance. Especially if he wants to mismanage play calling AND game situations all by himself. Those things have nothing to do with whether he should return next year. Hue will return to be only the third coach of nine to celebrate a third season since 1999. I expect his tenure to end when there is enough talent to realize that it's HUE that can't get us over the hump. I hope he proves me wrong.

What can happen to change my mind?

Kizer can look even worse with more talent, throw more INTs, missle-fire what should be smooth lob passes two yards behind an open TE five more times, etc... we do need to see some form of progress. Even after all that - he'll still compete for the job next season, I'll just be even more angry that I have to watch it.

Hue can keep showing complete ignorance to how the clock works, call TOs when he doesn't need them, sit on his hands when he does need one, and give the other team ample opportunity to rip domination from the jaws of mere victory each week. I guess I could get to the point of "I can't watch this clown anymore". STILL, as long as I don't watch a Pat Shurmur incarnate fight back tears of rage while he talks about "battling"... after I just watched a team quit... I think I'll be able to stomach another season.

Yeah, Kiser’s hair looks like he went to Super Cuts during their Christmas party.

As far as a referendum, management seems resigned to losing out so who cares anymore? I’m just going to root for, cheer on, Brown and Orange and not pay a lot of attention to who’s in those colors the rest of this year.

For the record, as a kid I read comics, and Dick Tracy was a fav.. Kizer looks just like the villain Flattop Jones.

These next 4 games have no bearing on what should happen in the future.

I don't see this team giving up on Hue or the season. I think they fight hard to get that first win. even if it takes until week 17 against the Steelers JV squad.

No matter what, I am all in the FO selects a QB with the first pick. I also expect them to go after a veteran QB to help out and probably begin the the season as the starter. Sign them to a 2 year contract and go from there. To be honest I think only McCarron or Eli fits this role as Cousins and Smith will probably expect a teams faith that they will be the starters for the next 5 years. That being said, we have the cap space and could over pay significantly for a 2 year contract. If we can land Smith or Cousins the question then becomes do we still draft a QB at #1????? I don't think that happens.

I am sure Jimmy H has already decided what he is doing and your guess is as good as mine as I can see arguments for both sides. I would like to see things stay the same with a couple of key additions. Dorsey/McGloughan/ Peyton in the FO and an OC on the staff.

I was feeling out how much interest there would be in taking a closer look at the final few games.

But it seems pretty clear that peoples minds are already made up so it seems like futile and pointless endeavor.

The consensus, in this thread at least, seems to be that Kizer is either a bust or isn't good enough to use both first round picks to build the team around.

I think the last few games will give a much truer representation of both Kizer and Hue. It is hard to evaluate QB play to begin with...its much more difficult when the players around the QB are below starter level.

It will be interesting to see how/if people perceptions change or whether or not there biases are confirmed.

Well it was just announced that Hue will return next year so as of now that's a moot point.

The deal with Kizer is a pretty simple one as I see it. How often does a QB starved team get the #1 pick in the draft with a talented QB draft class staring you in the face? How often does the fourth QB in any draft have a great NFL career?

So while I do agree it's too early to judge whether Kizer is capable of being a franchise QB, it's also too big of a gamble to risk passing up the golden opportunity in front of us. While I read the picture you try to portray, having the 10th pick in the draft and two second rounder leaves you plenty of room to build around your QB.

Do we actually believe Jimmy Haslam?

Well no, but......

Kind of like when Jimmy said, everyone is safe this year and will be coming back. Then, proceeded to fired Pettine and Farmer.

Lets hope for that ;-)

Well not everybody... IMHO,we should retain DePodesta