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Trying To Get a Better Understanding On How Everyone Judges The Offensive Lineman
What Basis Do You Use?
Do You Come To a Conclusion About A Lineman Based On How He Played With The Whole Unit? Or Just Individually? And What Stats Are Used To Come To The Conclusion
Im Asking Because In Real Time, Its Pretty Hard To Judge An Individual On The Fly, Unless Its Soo Obvious
And Another, What Does Joe Thomas Has To Individual To Make His First Year a Succesfull One? Not Get Beat??
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I'll help a bit.
When you look at lineman at the snap, the first thing you want to see is how he comes off the snap. If it's a run play, is he staying low so he explode into the defender and stand him up? Does he move quickly?
Next is his hand placement and usage. Does he get his hands on the defender fast enough to keep him at arm's length?
Next is footwork. A lineman's feet should be rhythmic and patterned (like a sewing machine). If it's choppy, and irregular, he's likely to be pushed out of position.
Now look at his body language. Is he bending at the knees (Good), or at the waist (bad)? Especially on run plays is he driving up and into his defender?
Now on passing downs it can be more complicated. Most important thing here, does he control his defender, or does his defender control him? Think of it like ball room dancing...a good offensive lineman is the lead, and he should be making the defender the woman, so to speak, in terms of movement. In his movements, again footwork is key. Think sewing machine.
The most important thing on pass downs is reading the D. He has a certain direction he'll start in (for Joe Thomas it would usually be the widest potential blitzer, so left), and then he works his way back in. If a team shows wide blitz, but at the snap comes inside, Thomas needs to see that, and check to the inside to help the OG.
Finally, at all times when blocking, a good lineman needs to shield his blocks well. Meaning, not only should he engage his blocker, he should be pushing him away from the ball, and blocking the lane for the defender to get back to the ball.
In real time, blocking looks like a mess, which is why you need to review the film afterwards.
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Best way to judge...opinion of course.
Individual battles...does he win them.
Now you want to evaluate as in prospects? Then you got to look at what win battles.
Speed...Footwork...Balance...punch and Power once the hands get on the defender.
Knee bend is important and movement keeping the legs under the torso as if they are connected by a Marionettes string...Solid base throughout no awkward leans taking the upper body in different directions from the lower.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Quote:
What Basis Do You Use?
On the basis of if the player he is blocking makes or has major impact on the outcome of the play with-in the first 2 yards if it is a run play, or the first 3 seconds if it is a pass play.
I say 2 yards since if the back isn't hit in 2 yards, he should get 2 more, and 3-4 seconds on a pass because that is enough time to hit a dump-off pass if necessary after having a chance to check the primary, and possibly the secondary..
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Thanks For Responding, So Basically Base It on The FeetWork and If He's Mauling Guys On The Run And Not Letting Guys Past Him On The Pass I Just Think Sometimes Its Hard To Tell All That As You Watch The Games, And It Seems There Are Many Other Factors On It Too Gap Responsibility All That Stuff, How Are We as Fans Supposed To Know That and Come To Conclusion, Do They Gotta Be Smart, Or a Mixture Of Smart and Dumb Maulers 
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I'm just curious why you capitalize the first letter in every word, like it's the title of a book?
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Quote:
I'm just curious why you capitalize the first letter in every word, like it's the title of a book?
Isn't that irritating as hell? I think the psych docs refer to it as "attention seeking behavior?"
Anyway....my standard is and always has been for judging OL: They gotta be able to move their ass and their feet at the same time. I also look for how they are able to overpower an opponent, by looking at the drive and the opponent's head.....an old axiom is where the head goes the body will follow. Strength, drive, and leverage to overcome a lack of either when necessary....
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Quote:
How Do You Judge an O-LineMan?
....By How Much Time He Spends On His Arse.
![[Linked Image from members.cox.net]](http://members.cox.net/flyinc5/smallsigpics/frcburnout.gif) AL 29 76 14 R_K
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The Faster We Can All Accept Im, Different, The Quicker We Can Get Back To DawgTalking  Thanks For The Reply Shep, Appreciate It 
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Quote:
Quote:
How Do You Judge an O-LineMan?
....By How Much Time He Spends On His Arse.
It Probably Is That Simple To Vette...!
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How Long Does It Take You to Type Out A Response? This Is A Huge Pain In The Ass.
Just messin with ya man
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I Dont Know How Long I Could Type Like This Before I Go Insane. 
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Just as Quick As It Is For You Type This.
AnyHow, What Does Joe Thomas Have To Dn Have a Succesful Year
When All Is Said and Done This Year, How Can We Come To a Conclusion On How Well He Played
Good Or Bad?
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I Answered Your Question Above...
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Quote:
I'm just curious why you capitalize the first letter in every word, like it's the title of a book?
It is a very bad typing habit. I find myself doing it a lot at work. Typing emails, creating legal documents etc.
It really is a pain int he ass, it requires that I proofread much , much more. It doesn't take much longer than usual.
it is a very bad typing habit, that I am guilty of....
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Hey Drunk.....are you in the Sign or Graphic Arts business???? I found myself doing a lot of that when I was in the Sign Business...Still do it now from time to time....
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Some tips for "on the fly" evaluation as you watch that I used looking at film. You will learn to slow down gamespeed as you start to "register" these while you watch. Football gets better when you don't myopically follow the ball everywhere... look away from the ball, especially on replays when it is slower. 1) On snap count, late? 2) Watch HELMETS> Too often ours stand straight up on defense and get no charge or penetration. This look can be used for both sides of the ball. If the first move is straight up or backwards, not a good rep. 3) Get beat? Most have to honor inside gap pressure; did blocker adjust to defense read? 4) Stay on block? Sustained til ball passed? 5) Hand technique/blocking: did he effectively neutralize opponent/ move opponent as needed. My fave! #6: Did the blocker do anything extra beyond assignment? Such as downfield block, peeling back, getting a second block, running beyond the point of attack, helping someone else, etc. Last year's batch certainly was geared to minimum. These are just for me and my opinion. Rule of thumb: Just standing and watching the play is poor football player. Whistles are to call you off, so we need to give the zebras more reasons to blow them thangs. Meanwhile, go Browns! And may the Elf be with you!   
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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I judge Olinemen by how clean the QB's uni is at the end of the game.  There are some guys on here like Vers for instance that can answer that question way better than I... But the simple truth for me is this, how much time does a QB have without having to leave the pocket.. That's for Passing.. for running, I look for holes that a RB can run to. Specifically, I look at the Tackles as guys that keep the edge clear and clean.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Can You Come To a Judgement Just By Watching The Game On the Fly, Or Is It Something You Really Have To Break Down Play By Play To Come To a Conclusion??
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just a guess, but I would think it would depend on primarily two things:
What it is you're looking for in real-time and how adept your eye has gotten at spotting things.
Someone that has been doing it for years could probably spot lots of that stuff on the fly... provided the TV angle has a clear enough shot or they have a seat in the stadium that is close enough with a good angle.
To pick out the finer details though, I would think that is where you would need to go over some film.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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All Pro
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Quote:
I judge Olinemen by how clean the QB's uni is at the end of the game.
There are some guys on here like Vers for instance that can answer that question way better than I... But the simple truth for me is this, how much time does a QB have without having to leave the pocket.. That's for Passing.. for running, I look for holes that a RB can run to.
Specifically, I look at the Tackles as guys that keep the edge clear and clean.
Your right on the nose there dawg,.. And I would like to add in the speed in which the guy pops up to get to his block,, Its about speed here
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I Guess Ive Come To The Conclusion If You Want To Really Understand How Well A LineMan Performs, You Have To Look at Film Play By Play, Game Is Too Fast To Do It On The Fly I'll Just leave That To The Guys Who Tape The Game, And Break It Down For Us..  Thanks Everyone!
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Quote:
Can You Come To a Judgement Just By Watching The Game On the Fly, Or Is It Something You Really Have To Break Down Play By Play To Come To a Conclusion??
well i think you can certainly do what daman just said during a game....are holes opening...does the qb have time to throw? those can be seen by anyone...clean uni....sacks? (although the last two could be tainted by a qb holding the ball too long)
the one thing i didn't see mentioned is keeping your feet moving....once you make that initial contact you have to keep your feet moving if you want to drive a dlinemen out of the hole...
but to see most of this you have to watch it slower....or at least with the ability to rewind and watch again.....i use a tivo-like panasonic showstopper....works great, and has shown many times over the years that the blame wasen't where i (or others) originally thought....
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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If a QB has 5 plus seconds to throw, the entire OL is doing very well.
If a back hits the hole in about 2 seconds, roughly depending on the type of run, the line is doing well.
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Quote:
Quote:
Can You Come To a Judgement Just By Watching The Game On the Fly, Or Is It Something You Really Have To Break Down Play By Play To Come To a Conclusion??
well i think you can certainly do what daman just said during a game....are holes opening...does the qb have time to throw? those can be seen by anyone...clean uni....sacks? (although the last two could be tainted by a qb holding the ball too long)
the one thing i didn't see mentioned is keeping your feet moving....once you make that initial contact you have to keep your feet moving if you want to drive a dlinemen out of the hole...
but to see most of this you have to watch it slower....or at least with the ability to rewind and watch again.....i use a tivo-like panasonic showstopper....works great, and has shown many times over the years that the blame wasen't where i (or others) originally thought....
Thats the Part That Gets Me, How As we a Fans Supposed To Know What The Blocking Assignment is, we Dont Have The Playbook, So How Do We Really Know??
It Just Seems Very Hard To Come To a Conclusion Regaurding This To Me..
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Well can't that argument be made about any play though? Look at the individual blocking, and how he blocks...you don't necessarily need to know the exact flow/line call to know if the guy suceeded in his assignment.
There is a lot of very good responses in this thread, going very in depth, I'm not sure what else you are looking for?
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I keep it simple. Did the
o-lineman beat his man on the play? Did he get to the second level and make another block ?
it's hard for the average fan to tell since we don't always know the blocking scheme on each play.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Quote:
Well can't that argument be made about any play though? Look at the individual blocking, and how he blocks...you don't necessarily need to know the exact flow/line call to know if the guy suceeded in his assignment.
Exactly!
As Browns fans, it is (or at least should be) painfully obvious when we watch one of our games from the last 15 years and then flip the channel over to a Colts game, or a Steelers game, or a Patriots game etc etc etc and see the difference in the flow of the offense whether it be a run or pass play.
Do you watch other games DPDrunk?
Can you see the difference?
Watch some tapes from the 80's when we had a good OL, and you can see the runs being executed with precision.....up the middle, counters, traps, end arounds.
Screens even, which we rarely see anymore.....from any team. Passing plays where the line can form an actual pocket to give the QB time and the wideouts time to run their routes.....
It all goes hand in hand...you have to make an opposing D respect the possibility that it may be a run or a pass. Do not allow them to cheat on the run with the safeties or they will get burnt, do not allow them to provide coverage with the LBers cheating back on their heels or the back will run out of the backfield for 8 or more yards on a single down.
This is really the most beautiful thing about this game......there are NO trick plays.......it's mano on mano with the best 11 on the field being the ones that come out on top.
When our OL performs as a functioning unit as they are supposed to do, you won't have to ask how they are doing.....you will know! There aint nothin' prettier in this world than a ball control drive down the field for 6 that takes off 6-8 minutes from the clock.
That's what it's all about! And it starts and ends with the OL......
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I Watch Pretty Much Every Game On Sunday and The Monday and Thursday Games  The Pats Line and Colts Line Act As 1 On Pretty Much Every Play. While Our Line Acts Like a Combustion Chamber, I Just Think You Have To Have Talent, Because Not Everyone On the Line Is a Pro Bowl LineMan I Just Dont Get How Our Non Pro-Bowl LineMan Cant Block Worth a Damn 90% of The Time, Not Saying Going To The Pro-Bowl Really Means Something But I Honestly Cant Sit Here and Say I Can Tell The Difference Between Our Players and Make an Evaluation Is Schaffer That Bad?? What Made Him That Bad?? I Know This Is a LineMan Post, But Reading All The Craziness In The QB Post and Evaluating This and Evaluating That Makes Me Go Insane 
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Quote:
Can You Come To a Judgement Just By Watching The Game On the Fly, Or Is It Something You Really Have To Break Down Play By Play To Come To a Conclusion??
no, I can't.. I need to see plays over and over again and then I'm still not 100 percent sure what I just saw in all cases.. Then I read about what others thought, then go check the tape again to see if I see it that way,,
In the end, I'm not at all qualified to pass judgement,, but like most on here, I either like what I see or I don't,, It's that opinion I express.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Here is a hint DPD, watch them games over again in slow. mow, and rewind each play at least twelve times. Then you will know how the line is doing.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Quote:
Thats the Part That Gets Me, How As we a Fans Supposed To Know What The Blocking Assignment is, we Dont Have The Playbook, So How Do We Really Know??
i agree in those instances we don't really know....
its not fool-proof, and i guess i'm talking about who wins battles more...
for example....say a rusher comes in untouched....i'm talking nobody blocks him....since we don't know what the scheme is we have no way of knowing who screwed up....now some of the more savy posters might recognize the scheme and be able to make an educated guess, but usually we are never gonna have 100% confimation on who really messed up a play....
but i will use a few examples....
don't remember the game, but couch was qb'ing and o'hara was at right guard....
it was a pass play and they rushed a guy from the back side....o'hara pulled and came across to level him, but instead o'hara gets pushed back 5 yards....right into couch....
now on that play many posters were posting on here that he missed a wide open reciever (might have been heiden)
on that play he could step up, and was forced to throw alittle early...
another example was last year in the balt game....frye goes to throw and is picked...that one looked like a bad throw too, until you watch the replay and see that he's hit as he threw...
it don't tell the whole story but it helps to sometimes see who got beat, and caused a play to fail....
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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We've watched our OL guys get beat and pushed around for years now...but the thing that upsets me most is when an OLineman blocks nobody...and a guy that he COULD'VE blocked blows up the play. And I've seen that mostly from the right side of our line. (our left side just gets beat)
AL 29 76 14 R_K
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no doubt that sucks, but imo its hard to know who is at fault, when you don't know what scheme was called...
sometimes it seems like a guy was just unaccounted for...you can look at a tape, as see maybe a guy was pulling and got stepped on, or maybe see the back go to the wrong side, but we will never know if a guard was supposed to pull and get the outside guy if he totally forgot..or didn't hear the call or audible...or if the tackle doubled down and didn't ride the de outside, cause he thought the back had him....
bottom line is we have lost our one-on-one battles between positions, and had tons of mental mistakes too...
hopefully that changes with the guys savage has been bringing in...
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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You MUST evaluate on the fly while watching; if we score and win they were good enough. But if you know what you are looking for around the ball, at the snap, on replay, watching the away from the ball game, etc. and PRACTICE those, then your "on the fly" is good and based on sound evals. So the habits get you to that "on the fly" play by play opinion. The other stuff here is what might be missed that could revise, correct, or otherwise change your thinking. Coaches grade differently, some systems give priorities different weight, so it's all "readworthy" I guess. Few complain that they know the game too completely or understand entirely too thouroughly. Meanwhile, go Browns! And may the Elf be with you!
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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The Browns biggest issue last year, and most years, on the OL has been a total and complete lack of mobility. They were building up the line with guys who just couldn't hit the 2nd level quick enough (or the first for that matter). Teams were beating the Browns off the snap.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum How Do You Judge an O-LineMan?
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