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The FO/Dorsey keeping final say over the roster is VERY good thing. yea... until he picks a dud then you will be saying its a hue or haslam pick lmao. Unless Mike Silver or the QB coach says so days after the draft on national radio, no I won't. constant theme with you through the years lol...
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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The FO/Dorsey keeping final say over the roster is VERY good thing. yea... until he picks a dud then you will be saying its a hue or haslam pick lmao. Unless Mike Silver or the QB coach says so days after the draft on national radio, no I won't. constant theme with you through the years lol... And what's that theme? I hope it's giving more credence to information provided shortly after an event/topic as opposed to a year or so after when people can start spinning stories.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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Puke away, if Kizer is our future we should trade away.........if not, grab Rosen
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Agreed. Doug Lesmerises is a little punk w/a personal vendetta against Hue. His claims are slanderous. I think he is the same turd who conducted the Brock O interview where he kept trying to bait him and anger him.
The turd should be fired. I don't like reading his lies and biased BS.
And it wouldn't surprise me if he posted on here. His one-sided narrative sounds familiar.
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...
Not sure why theres even questions about Mitch at this point ... thats just silly talk... Are there questions about Mitch? I mean other then my asking Grimm? Questions I have no problem with ... u asked if the Bears will draft a QB like they could be giving up on Mitch all ready ... i was being nice when i said silly ...  ... But do you consider questions about Kizer silly?Once again ... questions .. not silly at all .... wanting to give up on him ... thats just STUPID ... 2 rookie QBs in similar situations with similar production but with different perceptions, at least in this forum. You have a valid point about the opinions in this forum .... i could care less about the opinions in the forum ... most have no clue ... your not in that category ... most just look at stats and start drawing correlations and thats BS ... its also STUPID ... Those two share one thing ... there both ROOKIES ... thats the only similiraity they have ... You are conflating my point. I said Kizer and Mitch are in similar situations. They are both rookie QBs. Fact. They both play on teams devoid of talent. Fact. Both the Bears and Browns front offices are in turmoil. Fact. Both have low production numbers. Fact. etc.... Your argument amounts to saying that because they're not similar in everything then they aren't similar, which clearly isn't what I was saying. We could get into discussions about our opinionsof their skill respective skillets. But my point wasn't about our opinions of their skillets. STATS are decieving here .... case in point ... against the ravens Mitch was 8 - 16 .. i’ve Watched every snap they’ve both taken this year ... 6 of those were DEFINITE THROW AWAYS ... a 7 th i’m not sure ... Mitch’s stat line was 8 - 16 witch is HORRIBLE ... in reality 6 of the 8 incompletions were GREAT DECISIONS and throw aways ...
There’s a reason one was the 2nd pick in the draft and the other was taken late in rnd. 2 ... No doubt stats cab be deceiving. I can tell you already mounting a defense for Mitch's comp% as you tout his accuracy. But I would be the first to agree that raw comp% isn't the same thing as accuracy. In fact lately, i've getting tired of hearing people discuss accuracy. They use accuracy as a catchall critique against a QB when they can't pinpoint the reasons for missed throws. You're gonna have to cover your ears and stick your head in the sand or whatever you do when stats are discussed. Anyhow here's the thing about the right stats....PFF makes a stats that records adjusted completion %. You know how you mentioned throw aways? PFF accounts for throw aways, spikes and batted passes. Mitch adjusted comp%--67.4 Kizer adjusted comp%--66.5 Just to be clear: i am not making long term guesses or judgements about whether these QB will succeed. There are soo many factors that go into whether a QB will succeed or fail in the NFL. But I think people are off base IF they narrow in on 'accuracy' for the reason Kizer will fail. Accuracy is one of those labels people throw around without any real quantification. I've heard people call pro-bowl QBs inaccurate, which leaves me scratches my head. Anyhow. We can agree to disagree. I'm not even a Kizer fan. Do I think Mitch is more accurate then Kizer? Yup. Do i think Kizer's accuracy will be 'thee' issue that prevents him from succeeding as QB? Nope. I remember having similar discussion about Watson last year. Despite his actual accuracy numbers people insisted he wasn't accurate.
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Can y'all move this Kizer stuff to the Kizer thread?
Thanks.
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You're right. They're near identical situations, except Kizer is clearly better.
Trubisky's system is incredible. He doesn't have to do anything. That "throw away" game that Diam talks about is incredible. It's mostly just, "Is the screen pass open?" and "Is your intended target open on this bootleg rollout?"
I've never seen a system coddle a quarterback so much. He's getting playing time, but he's not really doing much to better himself. They're largely replicating his most basic plays from college that don't require much of him mentally.
At least with Kizer, Hue Jackson hasn't held anything back. It can be ugly, it can be overwhelming, but Kizer is learning from those mistakes and he's a better quarterback now than he was at the beginning of the year. He's actually developing, where Trubisky isn't being asked to do much heavy lifting so he's really not.
Kizer has been far better. In spite of that systemic difference, Kizer is performing at a similar level. He's got more turnovers, but also greater production and scoring in a situation that asks more of him to obtain it.
The only difference is that Kizer is a 2nd round pick and Trubisky was the 2nd overall pick that cost extra selections to trade up for. That influences perception. If Kizer was the 2nd overall pick and Trubisky was the 52nd pick, we wouldn't be talking QB and they would.
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I would like to point out that Dorsey will have been the only person to draft a pro bowl rookie in 4 straight years in NFL History if Hunt makes the pro bowl. But keep claiming his drafts are unimpressive.
Last edited by Thebigbaddawg; 12/08/17 10:29 PM.
you had a good run Hank.
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Clearly I didn’t know what u meant ... i’m not a mind reader ... I never bury my head in the sand ... i just blow up the stat and/or simply tell the truth ... STATS ARE FOR .... PFF? .... u keep relying on your bible to gather your info .. i’ll keep watching games for mine... I’m mounting a defense of Mitch and his accuracy by STATING FACTS ...  PSST. Did u miss he part where i said hes struggled with accuracy in certain games ... did that slip by U ed? ... Stick my head in the sand or cover my ears ...  ... Treat me like that again ed and i’ll respond in kind ... your call ... i’ve got NO PROBLEM with that .... We can agree to disagree ed ... no problem with that ... just like we did on your boy RG3 ... 
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You're right. They're near identical situations, except Kizer is clearly better. Trubisky's system is incredible. He doesn't have to do anything. That "throw away" game that Diam talks about is incredible. It's mostly just, "Is the screen pass open?" and "Is your intended target open on this bootleg rollout?" Thats a FLAT OUT LIE ... It was true his first few games ... they’ve given him more and more each week ... they developed there QB the right way ... there actually handcuffing Mitch now .. hes ready for more ... its one of the reasons why Fox will be gone ... Hue on ther other hand .. he threw way to much at Kizer for the first 7 games ... he scaled it WAY BACK for Minni ... and is now opening it back up ... but its still way simplier than it was the first 7 weeks ... WATCH THE GAMES ... if u do .. lets have a discussion after the next one and we can go over some plays if u like ... PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING ...
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We can agree to disagree ed ... no problem with that ... just like we did on your boy RG3 ... Game! Set! Match! lmao After that debacle I don't see why he would feel he has any credibility with his QB evaluations.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Thats not fair Pit ... Ed’s good ... he knows his stuff .... he just missed on that one ... its not like I don’t have misses .... he wasn’t around then or I’m sure his reply to me would be three simple words .... BRADY BRADY BRADY ... *LOL* .... He only got the snide remark cause he EARNED IT with his tone to me in his reply ... and u know how sensitive I am .... .... I’ll “dance” with anyone ....
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Yeah, but yours was years ago. You've had time to learn from your mistake. With him, the cut is still fresh! lol
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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We can agree to disagree ed ... no problem with that ... just like we did on your boy RG3 ... Game! Set! Match! lmao After that debacle I don't see why he would feel he has any credibility with his QB evaluations. Are you talking about Ed or Hue?
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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We can agree to disagree ed ... no problem with that ... just like we did on your boy RG3 ... Game! Set! Match! lmao After that debacle I don't see why he would feel he has any credibility with his QB evaluations. What does that say for Hue's QB evaluations?
Last edited by GrimmBrown; 12/09/17 09:29 AM. Reason: I should probably stop opening multiple threads at once, so new posts will show up while I'm still in those other threads.
![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/fkjZc8B/Bull-Dawg-Sig-smaller.jpg) You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
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Vers nailed this one. Hue can get better. what we need to do is stop blowing high picks. This draft is enormously pivotal and we need a competent pro making five choices in first two rounds. This guy fits that bill.
No idea why KC fired him. Our gain.
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I think Dorsey got fired because he lost a power struggle w/Reid in KC. It's not the first time that has happened in Reid's career.
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Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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I think Dorsey (Sashi) got fired because he lost a power struggle w/Reid (Hue) in KC (Cleveland). It's not the first time that has happened in Reid's (Hue's) career. Wait...where have I heard that before...recently even. Same thing but with different names. Oh yeah...I remember now. I put it parenthesis above. Similar except Hue-the-HC is the guy who lost the power struggle with the GM before coming to Cleveland.
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Vers nailed this one. Hue can get better. what we need to do is stop blowing high picks. This draft is enormously pivotal and we need a competent pro making five choices in first two rounds. This guy fits that bill.
No idea why KC fired him. Our gain. Ironically, we fired a guy who didn't blow high draft picks.
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First of all, it was a joke. I thought you were joking, too. But, here are some comments from Sashi when RGIII was here: “Our plan would be for Robert, if it carries out, to come in, solidify himself and then, if we felt like he’s our answer longer term, to begin working on a longer-term deal. Way premature to be talking about that at this point. He’s got to be able to come in, earn the starting job and then be able to show that he can lead our offense in a manner that’s going to allow us to be successful to compete for this division and ultimately for the Super Bowl.” In his first season in the NFL, Griffin led the Redskins to the playoffs, along with being named the Rookie of the Year. But, not only was that in 2012, but that was prior to yet another ACL tear, him struggling as a pocket passer, and not getting along with some of his teammates and coaches. So, despite it being helpful to have a solidified starting quarterback to head into the 2016 season with such a young team, it is also unlikely. But, either way, Brown has high hopes for the 26-year-old. “He’s a little bit the mirror image of us, where he’s got a chip on his shoulder, there’s a lot of noise about him on the outside, and he’s a tremendous teammate, really passionate about football, wants to learn and get better, wants to be coached hard, wants to be the best he can be. He’s proven that. He’s done it before, but he knows also that he’s proven he’s got a lot of growth left for him to become the consistent player that we need him to be and he wants to be.” The Browns success in the future depends in part on how long it takes them to find their franchise quarterback. Whether it’s Griffin or someone else, the Browns know that they need to find that guy sooner rather than later. In 2016, the hope emanating from the Dawg Pound might rest upon Griffin returning to his rookie season-self. The type of hope that seems to have left the shores of Lake Erie over the seasons of futility since 1999. “That comment [about Griffin being able to play in Cleveland for a long time] was certainly in line with that, but also the fact that he’s just 26 years old and he wants to play for a long time. He provides that upside, if he’s able to come in and do what’s first, which is establish himself as a starter and a capable starter for us.” http://waitingfornextyear.com/2016/05/sa...m-answer-at-qb/It seems fairly clear that Sashi was on-board w/bringing in RGIII. And I am not even criticizing him for it. I think it was worth the gamble. There was a ton of upside to the move and not much downside.
Last edited by Versatile Dog; 12/09/17 10:03 AM.
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Clearly I didn’t know what u meant ... i’m not a mind reader ... I never bury my head in the sand ... i just blow up the stat and/or simply tell the truth ... STATS ARE FOR .... PFF? .... u keep relying on your bible to gather your info .. i’ll keep watching games for mine... I’m mounting a defense of Mitch and his accuracy by STATING FACTS ... PSST. Did u miss he part where i said hes struggled with accuracy in certain games ... did that slip by U ed? ... Stick my head in the sand or cover my ears ... ... Treat me like that again ed and i’ll respond in kind ... your call ... i’ve got NO PROBLEM with that .... We can agree to disagree ed ... no problem with that ... just like we did on your boy RG3 ... No worries here of course we can disagree to disagree. You realize this whole back and forth is only because you disagree that Mitch and Kizer are in similar situations,lol. But i'm noticing a few things in our discussions i guess whenever we have a discussion I should expect certain things when we disagree or when you conflate my point. o You getting defensive then claiming i'm the one who is sensitive o You burying your head in the sand when stats are brought up (very convenient when discussing sports). I'm sorry if you are sensitive about my description of your response to stats but it's an honest representation of exactly your MO when stats are mentioned o You bringing up Griffin and purposefully misrepresenting my comments about him It's all good. I stand by my comments about Griffin. You should post them if you're gonna falsely represent them. Why so sensitive about Mitch and Kizer being in similar situations?
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We can agree to disagree ed ... no problem with that ... just like we did on your boy RG3 ... Game! Set! Match! lmao After that debacle I don't see why he would feel he has any credibility with his QB evaluations. Why would I lose credibility with my evaluations because of Griffin? You should post my "evaluation" of Griffin that was wrong. If you guys are going to attack my evaluation from the past at least have the courtesy to post what I said that was wrong. I get the people still don't like Griffin. And i'm comfortable having an unpopular opinion; i'm not going to shy away from it. Being the QB on a bad team is like being a bagman or messenger. And they always kill the messenger. Let's use McCown as an example. He didn't have much production when he was here. He goes to a slightly more talented team and is putting up better numbers. I guess McCown magically became a different QB? Yet, Griffin beat him out in open comp and was the best QB on the roster...and brought the only win in a long time. But, yeah kick him. Hey, what did you think of Watson last year?
Last edited by edromeo; 12/09/17 10:35 AM.
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One difference relative to the upcoming draft, we can take a 1st round QB without looking foolish. Admittedly, it's a question of perception but I think that's how it would be perceived.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Yes, Sashi was on board giving Hue a QB he wanted. I think Sashi said the entire time he was here that he would be leaning on Hue for a QB.
Worked wonders for him. That's his biggest failure as VP here in Cleveland. Listening to Hue on QBs.
I hope Dorsey doesn't do the same.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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One difference relative to the upcoming draft, we can take a 1st round QB without looking foolish. Admittedly, it's a question of perception but I think that's how it would be perceived. Agreed. I think the media and fan perception warrants...may even demand for a QB to be drafted in the first. I just don't agree its the right use of the resources IF they FO is gonna give Kizer a fair shot. But with Dorsey steering the ship it makes more sense to draft a QB in the 1st because GM's like to have their own guy. I think the most important move next year will be what happens at offensive coordinator.
Last edited by edromeo; 12/09/17 10:50 AM.
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If history is any indication Kiser should get the starting nod next season.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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I have high hopes for Dorsey. He has terrific credentials. As the man now responsible for our W/L record, I hope he succeeds.
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I hope Dorsey doesn't do the same.
We can hope.
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In the end I don't care about Sashi. Dorsey looks to be a good hire.
As for Hue, he either coaches himself in to a job the first half of next season or he coaches his way out of a job. Hue isn't going to skate by with 4-5 wins next year. I'd say 7-8 is going to be his benchmark.
We can't use inexperience as an excuse any longer. It's time to start winning some games.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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We can't use inexperience as an excuse any longer. It's time to start winning some games.
I'm sure Hue will come up with another excuse why he's not winning. And I'm sure Jimmy will believe him.
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J/C
Can't say I'm surprised. Dorsey seems to have decent credentials and has walked into Christmas Day, draft pick wise. Good Luck sir, I hope you bring us a winner.
I also see 2018 being win or bust for Hue. Dorsey may or may not be in on Hue but if he doesn't win significantly more games next year, it's an easy option for Haslam and the new FO.
I haven't had time to read the threads to be honest - bereavement has taken up the past few weeks - have any of the other FO guys been fired, such as Depodesta? I'm hoping Dorsey is just another head honcho and we won't be clearing house again.
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I wouldn't be surprised if Depodesta isn't here next year, but I'm hopeful Berry will be.
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If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Thanks guys - will try and catch up, been a breathless week again. And Britt cut?? My oh my.
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As of now, Depo is staying, I read Dorsey is working to bring in a contract guy.
Sorry to hear about your loss, drobs.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Thanks Cal, much appreciated 
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What does that say for Hue's QB evaluations?
Hue doesn't draft QB's. He's the coach.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Yes, Sashi was on board giving Hue a QB he wanted. I think Sashi said the entire time he was here that he would be leaning on Hue for a QB.
Worked wonders for him. That's his biggest failure as VP here in Cleveland. Listening to Hue on QBs.
I hope Dorsey doesn't do the same. We don't know the whole story, Memphis, but what is factual is that Hue the QB Whisperer, has had 6 QB's over the last near two seasons, to try to turn one into a starter. We don't know how comfortable he was with any of them, but the (lack of) results to date speak volumes...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns have hired John Dorsey to
become Cleveland's general manager
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