DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Kizer Rnd 6 ...

In response to Ed from the other thread

I agree he played a very good game other than the game ender .... my only dissapointment was the staring down recievers ....

I’m not sure what folks expect from him ... he’s not going to play like a vet overnight ...

I expect next week to be a “step back” for him due to the defense were playing ...

Why do u think it was a bad play call? ... very curious as to why u think that ...

A major problem with the Browns has been the lack of patience with rookies.

Remember, even Tom Brady didn't win the starting job as a rookie (or second year). Heck, he didn't even win the starting job AT ALL. He only got to play when Bledsoe got hurt.

Peyton Manning threw 28 Ints his first year. Can you imagine the OUTRAGE from Browns fans if our #1 overall pick threw 28 picks? They would run him right out of town.

After 3 years with the Chargers, Drew Brees had 29 TDs and 31 Ints.

Kizer is the youngest QB in the league. It amazes me that everyone just wants to replace him already with...wait for it...another rookie.

He has the tools. He just needs to learn. Maybe a little patience and he could be pretty good. Giving up on him already is foolish.

Your making too much sense

We should be really careful comparing Kizer to guys like Manning. Manning was a ridiculously consistent, terrific QB in college at a major program for three + years. The guy was a STUD for a long time in college.

In his transition to the NFL, he didn't have to improve on god-awful accuracy and mechanics or learn how to read a defense. Manning just had to adjust to the speed of the game...not build or re-build himself as a QB. He threw 26 touchdown passes and broke several rookie records (including touchdown passes (26).

I'm not saying Kizer can't do it nor am I saying we should give up on him. Manning went #1 overall for a reason. Comparing Kizer to Manning and projecting Kizer's "NFL growth" to Manning's is akin to comparing apples to oranges.

JMO

I'm not saying Kizer is Manning, or Brady or Brees. All I'm saying is that you need to give these young guys time to develop.
You really don't know what you have until they are 2-3 year in. Giving up so soon is like Groundhog Day around here.

Those are two good posts.

I thought Kizer played a very good game yesterday. Sure, there were rookie mistakes, but he was much more accurate.

Spielman made a comment about Hue addressing Kizer's mechanics. He was talking about alignment to the target. I was saying that when a few of us were breaking down his college videos. I find it encouraging that Hue and Lee [probably more Lee] have continued working on Kizer's mechanics during the season. Cal asked me about that the other day and I replied that it's tough to do during a season due to having to implement a game plan.

My biggest concern w/Kizer moving forward is I really don't see him going through his progressions. That is one thing that some guys never learn. Pre-snap reads are easier to teach and learn.

I'm not saying he can't or won't ever be able to make the post-snap reads quick enough, but it's a concern right now.

But overall, I agree w/your two posts. He has shown enough to not give up on him.

Despite all the losing, and questionable decision on Kizer's part, I think he will turn things around for the better. I'm not gonna go on a limb and call him a future HOF, but the kids got all the talent in the world. It's whats between his ears that needs to mature. That SHOULD come with experience and coaching.

With that being said, I don't think the Browns can afford to pass on a QB this year. Draft your QB, let him sit (if he deserves sitting), and ride with Kizer another year.

Kizer = Weeden..

no.

Ok, a poor mans Derrick Anderson..

I agree. Weeden has a far better winning percentage than Kizer as a browns starting QB.

The more I look at Kizer progress the year...the more I think the Browns should NOT take a QB in the 1st rd this year.

Kizer has done nothing that wasn't expected from a rookie Kizer is simply going through growing pains as all rookie Qb do, they are just slightly magnified due to lack of talent around him at the skill positions. We would be foolish to give up on the kid so soon considering we traded up to draft him.

What the Browns "Should" do is take Saquon Barkley at #1 overall(He is the best player in the entire draft), and take Calvin Ridley WR from Alabama at the spot we got from the Texans, and shore up the OL and D in FA.

I would even go as far as signing AJ. McCarron via FA and let him and Kizer battle it out.

Kizer was an "investment" he is like the 3 year mutual fund you put money into expecting a return 3 years down the road...he was NEVER supposed to be this great starting QB day one.

Neither Rosen nor Darnold will be ready to play day one...both of those guys need to sit for a year(unless you want to ruin them) QB is hardest position to move from college to pros, RB is actually the easiest which is why taking Barkley makes so much sense...Barkley will be a GAME CHANGER for us...think Eric Metcalf type of game changer but better running in between the tackles...think potential Marshall Faulk...we are idiots if we pass on Barkley...complete idiots...you don't pass on playmakers like him and expect to win.

Take Big Ben of 6 years ago and put him on the Browns and we still lose because we lack playmakers around him...all the big time Qb have playmakers...Ben has Bell, and Brown, Brady has Gronk and Eldelman, etc...who do the Browns have besides Gordon who can't stop the drugs?

Reaching for a QB this year will be a mistake because Barkley won't get out of the Top 5...We have a guy in Kizer he has shown enough that we can build a team around him....he has done nothing but make typical rookie mistakes on a bad team, he hasn't done anything to warrant giving up on him in less then a year.

Coller heads need to prevail here, and its my hope that Dorsey sees what many others see...thats its foolish to give up on Kizer....

Give Kizer Gordon, Barkley, Ridley, and a RT on that OL with a year and offseason to learn and the results will be way better....My lord Drew Brees and Jared Goff were terrible their rookie years, you dind't see them giving up on those guys.

thats the problem with Browns fans...too quick to pull the trigger on a QB the second they are not tom Brady...Manning had a worse year then Kizer as a rookie lol....

This is the ONE TIME we need to actually stick to the damn investment plan with Kizer...all he needs is a bit more coaching and time with some talent around him and things will be just fine...he is only 21 for petes sake....

if we don't take Barkley at #1 and give up on Kizer we are going to regret it for a long time because he won't be there at our next pick and he will be a HOF type of player....Barkley is a player that could literally turn the corner for this entire organization, heck you can build your team around a talent like that!

I don't give a damn what the media thinks...don't over think this...your picking #1 overall, turn in the damn card for the BPA in the draft(Barkley) and walk away with a home run. Kizer is young enough rookie to be an investment you build around, Kizer could be poised for a HUGE step year too long as we fix the talent problem and give the kid a chance...don't amke the same mistakes that have put us where we are now...

I didn't say I disagreed with your point. I even said we shouldn't give up on Kizer yet. All I'm saying is comparing his college career and corresponding pro-readiness to Manning's is way off base. Way off. The number of interceptions they both threw/throw as rookies is about the only thing they have in common.

I can't think of one successful pro QB who had a really good 1st year as a starter in college...then looked like crap...then entered the NFL early and struggled as a rookie but who turned it around in year two. People like to throw out Manning and Aikman as if their careers' were similar in college. They weren't.

That's not me giving up on Kizer...that's me saying the player comparisons I've seen to date are very off base.

If we give up on Kizer, this team is done. They are run by idiots.

Is there a way to quote from a closed thread? The closed threads make it hard to continue conversations....anyhow continuing a discussion about passing under center.....

https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.php/topics/1366780/re-kizer-rnd-5#Post1366780





In the Chargers game Kizer didn't pass from under center. The assumption being made from those stats blamed Kizer stating that Kizer couldn't operate from undercenter and thus there weren't any passes from under center.

Well here yah go:









To me that speaks to a coaching weakness in tendency breaking and self scouting. They addressed it against the Packers, but if it was noticed and addressed it could have been used in the Chargers gameplan.

In the offseason when there was good discussion about Kizer's skillset it was noticed how well Kizer throws from play-action. And how using play-action help a QB learn the proper footwork to operate undercenter because the footwork and reads are well defined.

I do not think drafting a qb in the first round is “giving up “ on kizer. I think no matter which qb we take and when, deshone will be our starter next year.

I see him going through progressions; even at ND.

Here is an example of Kizer going through his post snap progressions. Start with his vision to his right then changes his vision and resets to throw left:



The question I have is his confidence in his reads. Indecision, hesitation. When we discussed Kizer's skillset in the offseason an aspect I mentioned is the difference between when Kizer is throwing to well defined read e.g. from play-action or from a clear read. When Kizer knows where he's going and he's on time his arm talent shines.

The question I have is how fast/if this staff can get Kizer to throw the way he does on play-action to other concepts.
Kizer needs to make all his throws with the same confidence as he does with play-action.

What is considered giving up on Kizer?

I think most think Kizer hasn't shown enough to ignore the QB position in the draft or off-season, he's no sure thing to mature into a franchise QB... he's shown flashes of ability and he's shown what you would expect from a rookie struggling to adapt to the speed of the NFL and reading/understanding NFL defenses.

It will only result in a QB controversy, and drama will ensue, followed by QBs leaving Cleveland and/or being ruined. Can't play properly with someone else breathing down your neck.

Kizer will have a bad game, then it will be "Oh we have to play the new rookie" because "we have to see what we have" because "we might want to draft another QB"

Have we not seen that before? About a million times?

Every single year maybe?

Can we just stop doing that, please?

Give the kid another year without trying to ruin him, please.

I would much rather pick some other position in the draft.

Kizer is 21 and Weeden is what 40....not close.

Weeden is actually 38 but will be 40 in two years.

QB can be our last piece if you ask me,let Kiser make his silly mistakes,build a big fast defense with 2 good corners get some playakers on special teams then find a QB.
There are only a few players we can count on every week to earn their paycheck..this needs to change.

Seems to me most of Kizer's accuracy issues stem when facing a strong pass rush. His worst weeks recently have been against D's with good pass rush/secondary.

He hasn't learned to handle that yet. He can, in time.

I don't think people were comparing Kizer to Manning. They were simply pointing out that you can't base it on the rookie year.

If you not sure if you have your guy long term...100% sure. then you keep trying until you know 100% sure.

we are drafting a QB at #1 overall

ignoring the position in "hopes" that he'll pull a Goff and not a Weeden is a chance I for one am not willing to make.

Agreed.

Honestly, I'd much rather have 2 franchise QBs than 0. While it's a problem to have 2, it's a good problem.

Actually he’s 34.

I played all 3 sports. If you're worried about the guy behind you your not doing your job. Hell I was drafted for baseball and I was always worried when I got a day off.

I don't doubt that we draft a QB, though it may not be at #1....it could be at # 5-6.....but i agree, we are going to draft a 1st round QB.....hight 1st round.


Why wouldn't we....you are never 100% sure you have the guy until he becomes the guy.


I mentioned this earlier. Not normal by any means, but things aren't very normal in the Land....I wouldn't get totally ticked if we used both our 1st rounders on a QB. We have to get that right. I am sure we would gain some trade assets once we determined who the guy was going to be.



I don't want to do that, but we have to find a QB.


Football, baseball, and hockey have a 1 positional goal in common.....you have to have a QB, a stud #1 pitcher, or a top goalie. If you don't have those in your sport, you are going to seriously lack. Those are positions that have to be there above any beyond all others.

But in football the QB is more dependent on the team around him. In order for a QB to eveb have a chance at being 'thee' there has to be a team around him to support him.

You have Kizer he may be the guy...he may not. But you need to build the team around him to be sure. And premium draft picks are difference makers.

They can always draft a QB later. And philosophically if Kizer isn't thee guy the FO can always acquire a QB (via draft or FA) as the jewel after the team is built.

Also now you have to consider the situation with Hue on the potential hotseat....are you gonna draft a QB with the top for a QB that might be gone then saddle the next regime with 2 young cast off QBs?

So Sashi did a good job at selecting a QB in your opinion?

I got banned for masked profanity, so I'm late to the party (I would not have masked it if I could've) but Kiser played a spectacular game, and looked the part of a future NFL QB. Even his interception at the end was nothing more than a young rookie making a play but underestimating the speed of the D (Matthews). In a year or two he either makes that throw, throws it away, or (more likely) won't need to make it at all because he will have won in regulation. Very nice game by him.

We still draft a QB.

You draft BPA and if that is a QB then we'll find out if he has 'it' as he has a one-year head start.

agreed

see Goff & Wentz. They are night and day compared to their rookie season.

Finding a franchise QB will be new Browns GM John Dorsey's top priority

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/arti...92-72878a09f6a6

“The Cleveland Browns are not going to be successful until we get a quarterback,” owner Jimmy Haslam said Friday.

“We’re going to do whatever it takes to find a quarterback we need to be successful. Let me say one more thing, that will be John’s No. 1 priority. During the process, we have gotten to know each other very well over the last several weeks. I think he would tell you if you asked him, ‘What did Jimmy ask you more than anything?’ It was about quarterback.”

Wow, just throw Kizer under the bus.

Guess when he gets traded and studs out, he will have the last laugh.

This is Cleveland -- if you don't draft a QB because of what the next FO/Coach might do, you'll NEVER get a QB.

We NEED to take a QB at #1. We also need to sign a FA QB like Alex Smith or whomever we can get to come here.

IF Kizer can earn his roster spot and retain starting in the face of that, he gets to keep starting. If he isn't up for that, then you know IMMEDIATELY that he is not "THEE" Guy.

We absolutely have enough team built to not only grab the QB, but also to see the things he does and does not do well. Accuracy and decision making are two things he does not do well - and they're both kinda important.