now it's also said that Hue's offense is one that has a lot of slow developing plays.
Other than perhaps a couple of fans on this message board who have been trying to get him fired, who says that about Hue? I never once read that or heard that by an analyst. It sure wasn't in his resume when he was on other teams. Of course, I could be wrong and I'm sure you'll provide a link to correct me.
My problem with Kizer is not so much with the nuance between pass plays, it the game losing plays that happen too often when the game is in question.
Red zone turnovers and 4th quarter / OT turnovers have cost the team several wins.
Ball security is everything, as Marty would say.
Fair enough. My hope with this thread was to delve into the nuances, as you say, of individual plays during Kizer's last 4 games.
My reasoning is I expect Kizer's play to improve due to uptick in WR talent because imho that has a lot to do with how he played and how he is perceived. I could be wrong but I think the bad plays you mention.
I'll respond specifically to those plays from the Packer's game later when/if I get the chance.
Kizer steps through the pocket finds open space. Resets his feet then uncorks a 53 yard pass. Refs missed PI.
This is an example of the 'plus' ability he brings to the table.
One thing that really frustrated me on this play was how many people complained it was underthrown. The issue wasn't the throw, it was Tretter and Zeitler being forced back six yards from the line of scrimmage. They've got a double, there is no way they should be getting pushed back so deep, which gave Kizer no pocket and flushed him in to finding space.
That missed PI call was disgusting. With that, Browns had a damn good chance to go up 21-7 at the half. There was clear and obvious contact prior to the ball getting there. Should have been ball at the 2.
I would say that it was a bit underthrown, still catchable though without the PI. Kizer made a good move to evade there
I have a question for you (and anyone else who cares to chime in) in regards to the criticism of Kizer that he isn't progressing through his reads... now it's also said that Hue's offense is one that has a lot of slow developing plays. Does this help, hurt, or shouldn't impact at all, Kizer working through his progressions?
You mean from individual plays or overall?
If you are asking about time to throw then yes, plays with downfield focus take longer and therefore have 'slower reads'.
But, in regards to the overall growth of Kizer reading through plays I don't know.
In an overall sense I think Kizer has been thrown directly into the fire. And because of the lack of talent on the roster, especially weeks 1-13, I think Kizer will be a better QB for it. I believe everything in his career will be easier because of it. He's faced about as adverse a situation to start your career as an NFL QB as possible in my eyes. For a bulk of his season his starting WRs were not starting caliber anywhere else in the league.
To answer your last question (not quoted here) Imho throwing so many vertical concepts with below average receivers hurt Kizer's production and perception. But it may have been good for his development in the long term (if he's allowed to continue his development next year) because its only going to get better and easier then it was weeks 1-13.
Originally Posted By: DevilDawg2847
First play in vid^^
Am I correct in assuming that in a play like that Gordon is the Primary receiver that Kizer ideally wants to hit? And if he is, and Gordon is not clear, where does that leave Kizer? His other WR's are already at or beyond his range.
It depends on what you mean by 'primary'. Typically speaking the 'primary' receiver is the 1st read in the progression and IF they are open they automatically get the ball. In a Hi-Lo progression like the play above (which is a variation of the NCAA route combo) the clearing receiver-Coleman (vertical route post/go) would be the considered the 1st read and thus the 'primary' receiver. If Coleman is open, meaning he gets out in front of the DB AND the S is far enough away not to make a play on the ball then Coleman gets the ball. But, being that most defenses will keep a S to play overtop a post/9 route-go route then even though Coleman is the 1st read the likelihood that he get's open is low. When they dial up that play they're not expecting the throw to go to Coleman the majority of the time.
But, if you mean which receiver is more likely to be open and be thrown to then yes its Gordon. The play design is more likely to get him open then Coleman. BUT, the QB still needs to look at Coleman first.
(advanced QB's, knowing the S is reading their eyes/helmet movement might look at Gordon 1st in an effort to get the S to drop down and cover Gordon's over route/dig route thus leave Coleman in 1-on-1 but that's a whole nother topic)
Anyhow here is a good explanation of the play concept and reads on that play:
I understand in a play like that the importance of Kizer correctly reading the S and making his decision accordingly, but is that the same thing as "reading his progression"?.....To me when I hear "progression" I picture Kizer hitting the top of his drop back, sees #1 got jammed off his route, the flow of the play design brings his eyes to #2 who he sees ended up drawing the S help, and then to #3 his check down.
It depends on the way its coached. It could be a progression read where Kizer is reading from progression 1 to 2 to 3 OR it could be coached a coverage read where Kizer is told to read a certain player and throw based on where he goes kinda like an IF/THEN read on the S.
Again Chris Brown does a great job of explaining it here:
Originally Posted By: Chris Brown
Progression Reads: A progression read is designed to have two, three, four, or five sequential choices of where to throw the ball. It is important for the quarterback to pre-read the coverage to get an indication of the coverage, but, more importantly, a progression read requires the quarterback to know where each of the receivers will be given the pattern called. This kind of read calls for throwing the ball with rhythm drops — i.e. on a five-step drop, the ball is thrown to the first receiver when the fifth step hits (the “rhythm” throw), the second receiver after a hitch-up or gather step (the “read” or “gather” throw), and the third receiver after resetting the feet.
Limitations of progression reads: •A tendency to stare at the receiver that is first in the progression, which attracts other defenders. •It is frustrating for coaches to watch because they can see that a receiver who is later in the progression is wide open. Thus coaches need to know the progression as well as the quarterback — the QB’s job is to throw it to the first open receiver in the progression. •Quarterbacks will lose patience or think that because the first receiver in the progression was thrown to the first time that he won’t be there when the play is called again. Progression reads require the coach/quarterback not have their mind made up ahead of time.
Coverage reads: The simple form of this requires that a pass concept be called and the quarterback is told to “throw it to this guy if the defender does this; throw it to that guy if the defender does that.” To make this work, the coaches and quarterback must understand the exact coverage called; there might be five receivers deployed but the coverage determines which two or three are “live” for the quarterback. In essence, the quarterback reads defenders, who dictate where the ball will go.
Awesome post. Thanks for the continued detail you're putting in.
On the broadcast, I was upset with Kizer for going to Coleman instead of Higgins, but the All-22 showed that HaHa Clinton-Dix did a really nice job of positioning himself between the two and could have made a play on either.
Ideally, I would like to see that concept have Higgins work back towards the middle of the field sooner to avoid giving the safety the chance to centerfield the routes. I don't know if that was by poor design or if Higgins ran a poor route, but it didn't force Clinton-Dix in to a situation in which he needed to choose, which would make the read easier on Kizer.
That's just the way that play concept is usually drawn up. Higgin's route is always a vertical up the field to threaten the Safety and keep them from the middle of the field. The diagram I posted before is typical across the board of passing offenses. On all go vs Man defenses Cover 1/2 the Higgins the receiver in the #2 position (counting from the sideline) isn't usually expected be open against man defenses. The #2 receiver in a 999 concept/all-go concept usually gets open vs Cover 3/2.
If anything went wrong on this play the #3 receiver didn't attack vertically up the field aggressively enough. The #3 receiver (Njoku) on this play was too flat (but still open btw).
Agreed that he should have worked back to Njoku on that one. Browns had a time out, and a completed pass gets up around the 35 with, I don't know, we'll say 17/18 second left on the clock. Certainly a better position to be than a turnover. That's read three, and he's not consistently getting there enough at this stage.....I sometimes worry if Kizer is locking on to Coleman and Gordon too much at times. I understand the desire to get playmakers involved, but he's still struggling to take what he's given and certainly hurts himself with too many wasted opportunities by looking for the hero ball.
Yup, Njoku was read 3 on that play. I'm only really looking at the plays in this game. I didn't breakdown Kizer's previous games with this level of detail because quite frankly I wouldn't have enjoyed watching Louis, Higgins and Britt struggle to get open or catch the ball when they did. But no doubt Kizer should have worked to Njoky but was being greedy/overly aggressive there. And that happens to rookie QBs, especially rookie QBs with elite arm talent. They always think they can make any pass.
I don't fault him too much for focusing on Gordo and CC. wouldn't you do the same? I don't mean to harp on this but put yourself in his shoes...Gordon and CC will seem wide open after looking at Louis, Higgins and Britt. But its something to monitor over the last 3 games. The Raven's game is gonna be a great test. The Raven's need this game AND they have a legitimately great defense, especially against the pass. Its gonna be a good interesting chess match between Hue vs Peas and Kizer, Gordo, CC and Njoku,DeValve (who imho they should be throwing to more) vs the Ravens pass D.
How much of Kizer being horrible is just Kizer being horrible and how much of it is him not being developed? He has not progressed at all the entire season.
How much of Kizer being horrible is just Kizer being horrible and how much of it is him not being developed? He has not progressed at all the entire season.
How developed do you have to be to know when there is nothing but purple jerseys to throw it out of the endzone?
How much of Kizer being horrible is just Kizer being horrible and how much of it is him not being developed? He has not progressed at all the entire season.
How developed do you have to be to know when there is nothing but purple jerseys to throw it out of the endzone?
This.
Can't blame that throw on Hue.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
How much of Kizer being horrible is just Kizer being horrible and how much of it is him not being developed? He has not progressed at all the entire season.
How developed do you have to be to know when there is nothing but purple jerseys to throw it out of the endzone?
This.
Can't blame that throw on Hue.
Agreed.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
How much of Kizer being horrible is just Kizer being horrible and how much of it is him not being developed? He has not progressed at all the entire season.
How developed do you have to be to know when there is nothing but purple jerseys to throw it out of the endzone?
John 3:16 Jesus said "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
How many times can this idiot throw interceptions in the red zone or fumble on the one yard line? Insanity...repeating the same mistakes over and over again and expecting different results,"
How much of Kizer being horrible is just Kizer being horrible and how much of it is him not being developed? He has not progressed at all the entire season.
Your crusade to get Hue fired is off the charts. Hue has a great rep of developing qbs, but you claim he hasn't helped Kizer developed. I say he has. Kizer has shown improvement, but his flaws are what they are.
Look man, Sashi isn't coming back no matter what happens to Hue. Unless you are simply a vindictive person, I don't get the false picture you are constantly trying to paint.
How much of Kizer being horrible is just Kizer being horrible and how much of it is him not being developed? He has not progressed at all the entire season.
Your crusade to get Hue fired is off the charts. Hue has a great rep of developing qbs, but you claim he hasn't helped Kizer developed. I say he has. Kizer has shown improvement, but his flaws are what they are.
Look man, Sashi isn't coming back no matter what happens to Hue. Unless you are simply a vindictive person, I don't get the false picture you are constantly trying to paint.
Exactly who has Hue "developed", and how is that translating into him being a head coach? How has he developed Kizer?
I know you ignore me, because I've called you out on your b.s. in the past.
I still think he has a chance, but you gotta draft a qb at number 1.
He is simply too inaccurate. Man, he makes some really inaccurate throws.
He locks onto receivers and does not read coverages on almost every play. I really concentrated on that. One stinking read. Head never moving. He has a few where he checked down and the one where he spotted a guy as he was getting sacked. Other than that, his eyes focused on one guy. Terrible.
Then, he makes some of the dumbest decisions. I can excuse this one a bit because he is so young and inexperienced, so that is probably the area where he can improve the most.
How much of Kizer being horrible is just Kizer being horrible and how much of it is him not being developed? He has not progressed at all the entire season.
Your crusade to get Hue fired is off the charts. Hue has a great rep of developing qbs, but you claim he hasn't helped Kizer developed. I say he has. Kizer has shown improvement, but his flaws are what they are.
Look man, Sashi isn't coming back no matter what happens to Hue. Unless you are simply a vindictive person, I don't get the false picture you are constantly trying to paint.
Exactly who has Hue "developed", and how is that translating into him being a head coach? How has he developed Kizer?
I know you ignore me, because I've called you out on your b.s. in the past.
I'm asking a question here.
I only want to comment on your question about exactly who has Hue developed. I wonder the same thing. When he came here, there were posters talking about him being a QB whisperer. I remember some questioning that, and I didn't really think about it one way or another. Now I AM thinking, and it's not looking good. I just don't see Hue helping his young QB with his play calling and abandoning the running game. I honestly don't know how much work he does with mechanics and those types of things, but I think it all goes together, and I'm not seeing QB whisperer. Just my humble opinion.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do. -Derek Jeter
I never gave him as much credit as others when he first got here, but please, let's not rewrite history.
Hue has a great rep in the league. Don't let the bias of a handful of posters convince you otherwise.
Vers, it's not others, really. I just go by what I'm seeing. Maybe it's a case of Hue not being able to make chicken salad out of chicken crap, so to speak I do remember you were cautionary about him when he got here (as far as the QB whisperer claims). I do think there are times here, where he doesn't help his QB. For example, against the Ravens, he abandoned using Crow for the most part while the outcome was still in doubt. I know that's a snapshot and not the entire picture, and maybe developing a QB and "helping a QB" is an apples to oranges comparison, but it's just an overall frustrating situation.
I think, if nothing else, we're seeing that Kizer's play should not keep the Browns from drafting a QB #1 in April.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do. -Derek Jeter
I payed particular attention to whether or not Kizer went through his progressions today after our exchange last week.
Thanks for your opinion and i'm glad you paid particular attention to progressions. I look forward to reading your thoughts on the plays you choose to address.
2 things that concerned ma more than anything else.
He is incredibly inaccurate. It's not only him missing throws, even when he completes passes, it is, all too often, the receiver who makes a play on the ball for him, not that he makes good throws. He does make a "wow" throw one in a while, but fat too rarely to offset his overall lack of accuracy. (throws behind the receiver, into his knees, throws way over the head of the receiver, etc.)
The 2nd huge danger sign is the panic he shows in the crunch, especially in the red zone. Man he just lets the ball fly, with no idea where it's going, or who is going to catch it. He has had some hideous decisions/throws in the red zone. That cannot continue.
Unfortunately, I don't know if theses can be fixed. I would have hoped that familiarity with his receivers would increase his accuracy, but that doesn't appear to be the case.Panic throws are still there too. There doesn't appear to be improvement on either item.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
2 things that concerned ma more than anything else.
He is incredibly inaccurate. It's not only him missing throws, even when he completes passes, it is, all too often, the receiver who makes a play on the ball for him, not that he makes good throws. He does make a "wow" throw one in a while, but fat too rarely to offset his overall lack of accuracy. (throws behind the receiver, into his knees, throws way over the head of the receiver, etc.)
The 2nd huge danger sign is the panic he shows in the crunch, especially in the red zone. Man he just lets the ball fly, with no idea where it's going, or who is going to catch it. He has had some hideous decisions/throws in the red zone. That cannot continue.
Unfortunately, I don't know if theses can be fixed. I would have hoped that familiarity with his receivers would increase his accuracy, but that doesn't appear to be the case.Panic throws are still there too. There doesn't appear to be improvement on either item.
Can Kizer be fixed? The answer is yes. But I am concerned that he is not in the right situation that will bring the best out of him. We have a young (really young) QB who is playing in a game that is moving about a million miles around him, with a desperate coach on a team that is a flaccid as an empty balloon. The conditions are the worst you can put a rookie QB in. He knows that he is not ready for primetime. We don't have to remind him. He is the QB by default. Kizer knows this... and is making the best out of a bad situation.
The best thing that could happen for this young man is to get away from Cleveland during the off season, get with a QB guru and work on his mechanics. I've seen QB's become more accurate over time. It can be taught. But it takes a lot of practice on mechanics. Kizer's real issue is really about what he sees more than just body mechanics. He needs time to process the NFL game. He didn't get the development he needed in college to come out and become a barn-burner for the Browns. A season sitting would have done wonders for him.
I believe he can be a very good QB in this league, but the damage done to him this year is causing a regression in his learning arch. He hit the rookie wall about two games ago.
He completes some passes, but there are a lot of those that are real bail-outs by the receivers. (like the throw to Duke that he caught with the very tips of his fingers) There were other throws, like the swing pass to Duke,. that hit him in the foot. (and he would have run for quite a while, if the pass had hit him in his hands) There are just too many like that, so far off, where an easy throw would have been a nice completion.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
He completes some passes, but there are a lot of those that are real bail-outs by the receivers. (like the throw to Duke that he caught with the very tips of his fingers) There were other throws, like the swing pass to Duke,. that hit him in the foot. (and he would have run for quite a while, if the pass had hit him in his hands) There are just too many like that, so far off, where an easy throw would have been a nice completion.
I think it is still about what he is seeing and what he is trying to create. It will take time. He is still trying to overcome the carry over issues from ND. The coaches know that too... its the 800 pounder in the room.
I never gave him as much credit as others when he first got here, but please, let's not rewrite history.
Hue has a great rep in the league. Don't let the bias of a handful of posters convince you otherwise.
I agree he has a great rep. My only concern is to wonder if he is one of those guys who were great as coordinators but never were good head coaches? There have been a lot of those guys over the years. I don't need to name them, we can all think of several who coached the Browns who by all accounts were great coordinators but never panned out as a head coach.
Why do so many of those guys not make it as a head coach? What is the difference with the guys who do?
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
Some good thoughts being discussed in the last few posts.
But the intent for this thread, is to move beyond just giving our opinions and to discuss and breakdown actual plays from the game.
If people don't want to discuss the actual plays; I would kindly and humbly ask to find one of the numerous other threads that aren't focused on detailed breakdown and discussion of plays.
If not this thread just becomes another Kizer/Hue thread and may as well be locked.
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