DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Kizer Rnd 6 ...

For one, they can reduce the amount of throws he has by running the ball more.

For another, after doing that you can drastically limit the number of low percentage passes and increase the number of high percentage passes.

That's the thing with a raw, young QB. You can look at film on him and see his footwork and his mechanics. You can see improvements that need to be made. Those improvements may or may not fix his accuracy. Sometimes accuracy is all mental or it's a problem with muscle memory. The brain can send the muscles the signals, but that doesn't mean your muscles will react to the message being sent. There were reasons to believe that if his mechanics and footwork improved, so would his accuracy. But as we have seen, this isn't always the case.

The real issue is the mind numbing errors in the red zone and other game critical situations.

It’s not just interceptions, the fumbles and lapse of situational awareness concerns me.

It depends on whether you believe a QB 'is' a franchise QB or 'becomes' a franchise QB under the right circumstance.

If you believe that Kizer is who he is and nothing external him would change that OR a Kizer's is a result of the situation around him.

Brock isn't the QB anyone would want to lead their franchise but Brock could have been the bridge QB that the Browns needed that Kizer needed.

In the grand scheme winning a coupla games with Brock doesn't really change anything. But, it would have allowed Kizer to develop and be groomed at the right pace.

Kizer has to be expected to make basic freaking throws. while i agree that running the ball more will help our overall offense, it doesn't change the fact that Kizer has killed drives simply by not making basic throws.

Agreed. I think Kizer is bad and I also think the coaches could have done more to help him succeed.

One thing that Kiser didn't do for most of the season was panic, but that hasn't been the case the last few weeks. I'm not sure what caused the change but something changed his mindset.

Too many beatings. He’s like a whipped puppy trying to please his master. He’s afraid to do anything but forced to do something, he panics.

The team is desperate for a win, and I think Kizer is desperate to try and show something. That situation results in mistakes.

Hard to blame the guy when his head coach has happily thrown him under the bus, including just this week threatening to bench him while saying it's fair to question if he'll "ever get it", and the new GM has openly said he's here to draft a quarterback.

I think I'd be forcing passes too. The last thing you want is a quarterback trying to play while he knows he has to look over his shoulder.

Does anyone remember Matt Stafford's first couple of seasons?

I remember Weedens

I thought I answered those questions, but maybe not.

I have seen improvement in his lower body mechanics. I thought that those poor mechanics [opening the lead foot way too far] was responsible for his inaccuracy in college. His mechanics have improved, but his accuracy is very inconsistent.

It's hard to tell on TV at times, and being under fire when he wasn't really ready probably did cause him to revert back to muscle memory.

The worst is still Alex Smith, in my opinion. Comparatively;

Kizer - 410 attempts, 19 interceptions, 6 fumbles.
Smith - 165 attempts, 11 interceptions, 9 fumbles.
Stafford - 377 attempts, 20 interceptions, 4 fumbles.

Brutal. That's some damn turnovers.

just to keep it going for rookie seasons:

Kizer: 53.9%
Smith: 50.9%
Stafford: 53.3%

oh yea

peyton manning: 575 attempts, 28 int, 3 fumbles, 56.7%

I should have remembered to add, but Alex Smith had only one total touchdown, too. A single touchdown.

Kizer has 14 (9 passing, 5 rushing) with two games to play.
Stafford had 15 (13 passing, 2 rushing).
Manning had 28 (All passing) to redeem his interception record.

But Alex Smith had all those turnovers, and only a single touchdown to show for it.

it's gonna be interesting bro.

we're looking at the numbers. wonder if Dorsey and Hue ever consider the same thing?

i mean with Hue's comments about Kizer, and Dorsey's comments about Sashi, maybe not, but i'm already prepared for them to not draft a QB in round one as a serious possibility.

i think that would be a mistake, but hey you never know.

And Matt had Megatron.

Yet many fans are ready to toss out the baby with the bath water. As I stated before, on a normal team he'd be starting next year with a bevy of new weapons around him and a scheme that didn't require him to throw 35 times a game, but since we're the Browns we have to draft a QB #1 overall and bring in a starting caliber vet just to make sure we can win a few games.

There is part of me that really agrees with this. As I've said before, I think the only thing preventing Deshone from being built around is perception because he's a 52nd overall selection. If he was the 1st overall pick or even the 12th pick, this wouldn't be a debate, he would be built around.

Deshone has a lot going for him. All the tools, tremendous attitude and work ethic, and he's undoubtedly shown a lot of improvement over the season, which is surprisingly rare given most quarterbacks take a step backwards. In the second half of the season, he's completing passes at a higher percentage, has less turnovers, has more touchdowns and has higher yardage totals. That's impressive. His passer rating has jumped 17.3 points from the first half of the season.

Kizer has had a brutal second half to the schedule, to top off his improvements - all teams except Green Bay have been top 15 against the pass, and four of those are top six, including Jacksonville and Baltimore being the two best teams against the pass. That is an undeniably difficult stretch for any quarterback.

And he's had to do that while acclimating to life with Gordon and Coleman, both of which he's had minimal practice with, and any honest coach/QB will tell you how important chemistry is.

No doubt things have been rough for Kizer, but a 21-year-old, raw quarterback joining a 1-15 team isn't supposed to be an easy transition. He's supposed to be doing things like struggling with accuracy, not getting to his 3rd read, making gaudy plays that lead to interceptions and being a step slower than the game. Anyone who thought that would be overcome in year one wasn't being realistic nor objective.

Personally, I understand why people want to have a QB. My general rule for a rookie is 20 touchdowns and 3,000 yards. Get that production, and the correlations for future success are dramatic. With two games left, he's got 14 touchdowns and 2,748 yards. Short of the magic numbers, and only missing two games (Houston, and the benching vs Tenn, NY in the second half.)

In my opinion, what matters most is he gets a fair opportunity next year. I don't see it happening with Jackson and Dorsey running the show. Given their comments about Sashi, I doubt the two would ever willingly admit that Kizer gave them a better chance to win as opposed to the #1 overall pick or a sign/trade veteran. That's just my opinion, I think they would rather lose with "their guy" than win with "Sashi's guy." I hope I'm wrong.

Here's the list:

Link

4 guys out of 10 weren’t even drafted in the first round.

Thank you. So, yeah, pretty dramatic correlations with long-term success. That's just throwing, however, and I include both passing and rushing totals because so many guys are deadly with their legs.

So, for example, that thrusts guys like Mariota, Bridgewater, Glennon, Geno Smith, Bradford, Flacco and Matt Ryan all on, or narrowly missing, the benchmark. For example, Ryan would be at 3,544 yards but only 17 touchdowns. I'd count that.

Then there are some guys you can extrapolate their production. Stafford, as we mentioned, had 15 touchdowns and 2,300 yards but he only played 10 games. If he played 16, he'd have been there.

And, of course, some guys just didn't play as rookies. Eli Manning started only nine games, and admittedly looked awful, but in his first year starting (year two) he had 3,800 yards and 25 touchdowns.

Obviously, no system is perfect and it is all individualized, but that's a pretty compelling list, in my opinion, in terms of an evaluation of what production can mean for a young quarterback.

Edit - I should have mentioned rushing touchdowns overall, because that's a team stat that impacts a QB. So, Ryan had only 17 touchdowns, but Michael Turner had an incredible 17 rushing touchdowns and Norwood added a further 4. Joe Flacco only had 16 total touchdowns and 3,000 total yards, but McClain and McGahee added 17 rushing touchdowns. Both huge rushing TD numbers.

Where as Kizer, for example, has 14 touchdowns but the run game only has 5 between Crow and Duke. That's really low, and highlights the struggles.

I've been thinking about this lately, and I wonder if it is deliberate at this point: keep giving Kizer work even amidst his struggles, even in the middle of games.

The season is long, long lost in terms of record, so the only things of value to salvage from it are growth and pride. If you rightly ignore worrying about pride and decide to focus on growth, you can give a struggling young QB a BOATLOAD of reps in game situations. Afterall, the only way he is going to get past some of these things is by doing it.... better to do it when the season is toast than next year when we might actually have a shot at winning a game or two.

If you're erring on the side of a BOATLOAD of work for the young QB are you necessarily then considering drafting another young QB or is the investment you've already made, to setup moving forward with your current QB?

I would say we had the chance of winning at least a "few" games this year, and I would say that the pass happy approach likely cost us a few games. If we had entered the season with some decent wide receivers (or if the receivers we had weren't so drop happy at the beginning of the year) and had taken a run first, ground & pound approach, we wouldn't be having this discussion, Sashi would be getting ready for Free Agency, and Hue wouldn't be on the hot seat.

JMHO

I don't think that's the case. If Kizer would give them the best chance to win, I think they would go with it. However, the pressure to win now (as in "win now") will be so great in 2018 they will be forced to either start the Veteran, or the #1 pick. Kizer will get lost in the shuffle simply because of where he is developmentally. Of course you're wondering how a rookie could be ahead of Kizer developmentally, but if the rookie is Rosen, his accuracy and ability to go through his progressions will give him the leg up.

Twelve rushes against the Ravens? Yeah... that ain't gettin it done. Passing from the end zone when you have a chance to run and at least get some breathing room is just plain stupid. I don't like the "I'm smarter than everyone else" approach coach takes at times. It's only bitten him in the ass. Every. Single. Time.

Don't worry, we'll have at least two QBs plus Kizer as the developmental guy.



It's also a case of Hue misusing his tools. And that's my point. Because of his misuse, we're forced to bring in TWO more. It's idiotic. But it is what it is.

We could have won a few games this year with the pass-happy approach if the execution had been better; taking a ground & pound approach might have won a game, but it wouldn't have done a damn thing for giving the QB work.

#justathought

Stop sending in check downs he locks in on; give him The YAC routes we avoid, like crossing.

Keep him off our field. Lipstick on a pig more often than not. Play a vet who is not a turnover machine.

Kizer has to be taken out after first half. He has earned that. Why not use some other folks?

I would say that you would be doing it with the hope of getting things to "click" and have the light go on quickly, or at least definitely answer whether or not he can be the guy going forward. I would think that it is an attempt at getting an answer which tells you what your next move is.

Seeing how divided thoughts on Kizer are even now (from he's trash to he just needs to grow), I would say that we know as little about him now as we did Week 1. If nothing else, he & Hue will have a LOT of film to study and learn from in the offseason.

No, you didn't misread it. I've read your posts, I know how you feel about Kizer, and that's okay, I just don't happen to agree that he's a lost cause. As far as him becoming a franchise QB, I think it's possible. I also think if he were properly handled this past season, we'd have a much better idea of his potential, and his turnovers would have been minimized. Please don't put words in my mouth. Ruining and misusing have two different meanings, and I know you know that. I didn't say "Kizer could have been THE GUY no problem if handled correctly". I'm saying we don't know because he wasn't.

You're being intentionally combative, maybe you're not feeling well, I know you're capable of understanding my point, you're just not willing to this morning for some reason. Hope you feel better.

Anyone remember this game:

8? drops...in one game...some teams have that for the season!