DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Kizer/Hue's 4 Game referendum ;)

If Hue had fallen in love with Wentz, I think we would have taken Wentz. I think Hue really really really really wanted Goff. He was butthurt when the Rams traded ahead of the Browns and were projected to select Goff.

I think the issue then could be that Hue didn't think the front office would trade out of the 2 spot and they'd get a much better prospect than Wentz going with Bosa or Elliott. Sashi saw this as an opportunity to better the team and traded out of the spot. We still got the #1 WR in the draft. And we had the QB the HC was enamored with, RG3. Everything was hunky dory, until of course everyone got hurt, RG3, McCown, Coleman....

I'm not saying I agree one way or another, but perhaps the disconnect came as early as the first pick in the 2016 NFL draft, when if in hindsight, even before Wentz went on to do great things, he'd have said if his options were Wentz or trade the pick, Hue would have said Wentz.... But we'll never know... And I'm still not that upset about the trade. We built a pretty solid foundation and we are about to be in position to draft someone as good or better than Wentz in Mayfield.

I don't agree... I think 100% Hue is in charge of quarterbacks. I think this is why the FO has always said we will defer to Hue when it comes to quarterbacks. I don't think they're lying. I think that was part of the deal when Sashi was hired by Haslam and then Hue was hired by Haslam.

I don't think anyone in the front office read Wolf's book except maybe Dorsey. If they had, we would have taken Wentz with the 2nd pick last year. Also from reading that book, and Bill Polian's book I surmised that it's not a good idea to allow the HC any control over the roster. The idea that we gave Hue the power to pick his QB was not going to work. As much as you don't want the GM to tell the HC how to coach his team, you don't want your HC telling your GM how to use picks, draft players, etc. The HC will have input but will not be the decision maker. This dynamic was set up to fail from the get go.


But maybe you're right and Haslam read the book. And Haslam felt he could do this... the one problem here is that Haslam was the owner, not the GM. Haslam has always needed to hire a GM and let him do all the work... It's working pretty well in New England. Haslam forcing the marriage of Sashi and Hue was never going to work. Forcing the marriage of Dorsey and Hue will also not work.

Whether Hue is a great coach. Or if we are going to have that sense of rebuild again with losing Hue. Or Joe Thomas retires because Hue is fired... it doesn't matter. There's no winning formula in keeping Hue at this time. That ship has sailed. Poor Hue, but it is what it is.

To develop a QB you first have to have a QB.

[satire] I can't wait until all of these QB's go to other teams and then we will see how great they are and how badly Hue mismanaged these guys.[/satire]

McKown was playing pretty good for the Jets. Far better then he did here. Not blaming Hue for it but maybe it says something. IDK

Throwing a rookie qb who WAS NOT EVEN CLOSE TO BEING READY TO START and not scaling things back even a little bit is BRILLIANT .... ..

Hue $crewed this up BIGTIME ...

Pulling him out of games, benching him for a week .... all BRILLIANT moves on his part ... appearantly Hue thinks about as much of QB’s as he does YO-YO’s ... ...

U can talk about the “mold” he had to work with til the cows come home .. that don’t make the way he handled him any better ...

EXCUSES EXCUSES EXCUSES ...

So what your saying is..it's Hue's fault that a turd can't be polished.

No ... not even close ... nice try though ... ..

I’m saying HUE SCREWED THIS UP from day 1 ...

Unlike U and many others .. i’m in the REALITY BUSINESS not the EXCUSE MAKING BUSINESS!!!

If u think that hue made no mistakes in this and its 100% on the fact Kizer is just a BUM ( thank god the rams got a new stone polisher this year, cause he was worse than Kizer was this year his rookie year ... ) ... then may god bless U ...

That depends on how you look at it Diam. I mean, okay, I already know how you look at it. lol

Don't you think it's odd how poorly you thought Kizer was coming out of N.D.? You stated over and over again how you didn't believe he was ready. You stated how inaccurate he was. From everything I gathered, you didn't really believe he would make a good NFL QB. Maybe that's why he hung around in the draft until #52? It seems the NFL pretty much agreed with you. Good job!

Now let's see, Hue had the great options of Cody Kessler and Kevin Hogan to play over Kizer. Yeah, not starting those great talents over Kizer was a huge error in judgement. I kid, I kid.

It's funny how so many seem to claim we were on some long term plan yet when the coaches approach it that way, people feed them a barn full of BS. lol The only way to see if a kid is going to improve is to watch him play. You have zero idea to know how his game has or has not improved with him sitting on the bench.

How are you going to meet up with a five year plan if you're going to gamble on a #52 pick for three years? You're NOT! The funny part is you knew Kizer didn't have what it takes to be an NFL QB. You know it and I know it. Now you want to blame Hue because you were right? That's rich Bud.

I believe they knew what a great class of QB's would be coming out this year. I think in order to stick with a five year plan they had to figure out if Kizer would improve in the face of fire. That they didn't have the time for some long experiment with the fourth overall QB drafted at #52.

I think they took a shot in the dark with a QB who had the odds against him from the beginning. Now maybe you think they should have babied him. Maybe you think that putting a two or three year investment in a QB with many major pieces missing in his arsenal is a wise choice when your team hasn't had a real QB in decades.

But yeah, I don't think it would have been smart to waste even more seasons without knowing if we actually have a QB or not. We don't. And I'm glad we know it sooner than later.

The fact is wasting even more seasons trying to determine if Kizer was going to be our answer at QB isn't very realistic.

None of what u just said has ZERO TO DO with how Hue handled this ... U want to spin this discussion away from MY POINTS cause u can’t adress them ....

Please adress the main points i made ... then i’ll adress the rest of your post ... i’ll make it easy for U ..

1. Was it right for Hue to NOT SCALE THINGS BACK for Kizer for the first 6 or 7 games of the year? ... do u think throwing the not ready rookie out there with the ENTIRE PLAYBOOK from day 1 was a good move? ....

2. Do u think treating him like a yo-yo and pulling him out of 2 games and benching him for a week we’re GOOD MOVES? ...

Answer those two questions w/o any spin or bs ... then i’ll reply to your post ...

Til then ... HAVE A MERRY CHRISTMAS BRO ...

Good thing for the rams they didn’t give up on Goff after his rookie year ... ...

U may wanna stick to the low hanging fruit with your BS ... it ain’t gonna fly with me ...

I said from day 1 ... REGARDLESS OF WHAT KIZER DOES THIS YEAR WE WILL NOT KNOW IF WE HAVE OUR QB OF THE FUTURE ...

Thinking u know what u have after 1 year is FOOLS GOLD ....

Goff is one extreme ... RG3 is the other extreme ...

FOOLS GOLD!!!!!!!

Sad part is .. U KNOW THAT ABOUT ME ... we’ve discussed it more than once ...

1. Unless you have some access to the playbook, how do you know it was not scaled back? It seems to me you're basing this strictly on what you think happened.

2. I'm not sure if it was a good thing or a bad thing. I mean it's not like he kept him on the bench. Can you honestly say that pulling a guy whose in a funk woun't help him collect his thoughts and regain his composure?

Let me counter your thoughts. Would leaving him in there to throw even more interceptions and even further undermine his confidence on the field have been a better idea?

That's not spin bro. Continuing to let him stink it up on the field may have been an even worse decisions than sitting him down for a couple of quarters.

Now don't get me wrong. I think Hue had Kizer throwing so many passes was a mistake. I think Hue abandoned the run too early and too often that put undue pressure an a rookie QB.

I don't think Hue is perfect. But I do think people are reaching on some BS just like you did here.

A Merry Christmas to you and your family as well my friend.

Sounds like you're just trying to make excuses...

Yep, a much better QB prospect with a much better skill set is a fair comparison. NOT! lmao

Comparing Kizer to Goff? That's rich bro.

Now what was your opinion of Kizer coming into the draft again? Oh that's right. That's something you don't want to talk about now. lmao

I'm not sure I understand your argument here. So while everyone knew Kizer wasn't "the guy" we did right by taking a developmental QB and playing him right away, not just playing him but asking a lot from him. But instead the plan was to not develop him but to let him sink or swim under difficult circumstances. If he showed us he was good enough, great for us,if not we would rely on this coming years crop of QBs who by the way have not declared yet. And with the dysfunctional Browns holding the #+1 pick, incentive to come out. This years senior QBs are Mayfield, Rudolph, and Falk. Not sure about Allen thought I read something about him graduating.

Comparing Goff to Kizer is like comparing Garapolo to McCarron.

Give any coach the qb room we had this year, Kizer, Kessler and Hogan with a team comparable to our talent and see what happens.

That's pretty much what I'm saying.

You have promised a five year plan. In your second year of that plan you draft the fourth QB taken in draft at #52. Do you really feel that's where you draft the QB you believe will be the answer? Or is that more a place where you draft a wishful project?

And in year two of a five year plan, how much time do you feel you should dedicate to that project?

That's what I feel a lot of fans have a problem with. Separating the players and feelings from the fact that the NFL isn't a sport, it's a billion $ plus corporation. It's a bottom line business. You see, whether people like it or not, the decision on Kizer was made a while back.

It's why Sashi doesn't have a job. If the owner felt that there was any reason to believe that Kizer was a franchise QB, Sashi would still be employed here. If the people who sign the checks felt there was any chance that Kizer was a franchise QB, it wouldn't have been publicly stated that dorsey's priority #1 was to find a QB.

I don't even know if Hue had any say in starting Kizer even if Kizer was the bets QB on the roster. What we do know is that Kizer started and the people who sign the checks want a QB and don't believe Kizer is that QB. That's been stated by them.

I don't know if when you value picks like this organization does, that you use a 2nd round pick on a guy you aren't planning to develop. Maybe that was solely Sashi that did that, idk, but Hue did play him. Maybe he was his best option, but Hue knew he was a developmental player and I just don't see where that development is coming from, Hue? The QB whisperer? All I'm saying is you can't draft a player as a developmental guy and hope he shows you all that he is after one season, one season where IMO the kid didn't get any of the luxuries a developmental QB should get.

I didn’t compare them as far as skill sets went ... u must have a problem PROCCESING INFO ...

My comparision was the fact that U CANT JUDGE A ROOKIE BASED OFF THEIR ROOKIE YEARS ... its called FOOLS GOLD!!!!

IF u EVER understand the difference between those two things ... get back to me ... MAYBE then i’ll waste my time replying to you again ...

Well, its not possible to do worst,is it?

Jets had a worst team this year
Any expansion team in the NFL was worst

Amazing how you can say a team that has a sound, if not good DL. A sound OL (better than average) can go 0-16 with an average coach...

No they would not go 0-16...

Sign an average QB, make Crow and Duke earn the reputation or sign a RB (there are plenty out there).

Bench Peppers and sign a FS, it does not have to be very good to be better than what we had..

Presto you have a 5-11 / 6-10 team... with someone who are not idiots calling D and O plays, like Dumb and Dumber AKA Hue & Gregg.

Stop with all blitz and deep safety shenanigan and stop calling 2 out of 3 pass plays against the best pass D's on the league.

Not rocket science... Even Pettine could do it, or Shurmur...

I agree with you to a great extent on him not getting the time nor the proper opportunity that a developmental player usually gets. But I believe the timeline is the reason for that.

And not seeing the development? Some QB's improve and "start to get it" and some don't. That often has very little to do with coaching. Kizer had a lot of limitations coming into the NFL. Accuracy and post snap reads being two very important ones. Now people could see that his mechanics and footwork needed to be improved. And I believe to some extent they have been. That's about coaching.

But sometimes, while those things should help improve accuracy, they simply don't. Sometimes it's mental. Kizer did not improve his accuracy. Post snap reads on the other hand are impossible to predict. It's one major ingredient that cause college QB's to fail in the NFL. It's something no coach can just fix or teach. Either your QB starts to get it, or he doesn't.

If it was something that could be taught, QB's would be easy to find in this league. So the jury was out on whether Kizer would even be able to do those things. The raw talent and athleticism was there but much was left to chance on if the others could be corrected.

Now I do agree that you won't know all of the answers to that in one season. But you will see signs of whether a QB is "starting to get it" or not. His accuracy has not improved. His lack of understanding of where to go with the ball based on the opposing D hasn't seemed to develop.

Now I understand your thought process about valuing picks and using a second round pick on a developmental player. But this isn't just any position. This is the QB position. A more valuable position than any other by a long stretch in the NFL. QB's move up every year in the draft based on this position alone.

So while I would most certainly agree with you if it came to any other position, the QB position is different. It always has been. If they could have accomplished answering the QB position by drafting Kizer, what an accomplishment it would have been.

At the very same time, when you select the fourth QB in any draft and select that QB at #52, history dictates that it's more of a shot in the dark than an answer.

We were on a five year plan. Going into year three with that type of QB without seeing any major improvement in his game isn't the logical path to follow.

Well we have to rule out discussing anything with anyone that you are so superior to or doesn't respond nice to you by kissing your ass.

Makes for a pretty short list doesn't it?

I think one of the most important qualities of winning QB's is being neglected.

Game situation awareness... That's something we see even very good QB's fault throughout their career.

Those Dumb, hill advised plays some QB's tend to do... Romo, Cutler even Payton.. do it. Brady, Ben, Wilson, Eli, etc don't do it that much..

We had a perfect example some years ago with Frye... You could bet he would do a dumb hill advised play per game...

We are not talking gun slinger, high risk high reward plays that go wrong. I like those plays...

I mean, those plays that Kizer persist on doing where you can't even understand the though process ... the butt fumbles...

We have seen enough, I would say...

I would also say that 1 season is enough to assess the potential of a QB,and yes I do think RG III and Vince Young were good QB's until they were ruined.

Wentz was good last year, Jamarcus was trash, etc

IDK it seems like it was a wasted pick to me then. I didn't like Kizer coming out, thought he needed to sit for at least a year or two, I actually liked Webb a lot more, we still don't know what he is but the Giants at least are treating him the way a developmental QB should be.

In some cases I agree with you and in others, not so much.

Sometimes you'll get a QB who is a gifted athlete, but not such a good QB. To me that's a huge difference. Sometimes coaches will game plan with using every tool a QB has in that regard. And you can't blame them for that. They'll tailor make an O for those skills.

What often happens is that it takes opposing D's a while to get film on those type of QB's. To create a scheme to stop those QB's. Once the evidence is in and D's scheme for them, those athletic guys are exposed as not such good QB's after all.

The Giants have Eli Manning. I think one needs to look at the situation in order to see the options each team has. They're quite different.

This is a good convo.

But could we keep this thread about the plays?

Typically the drag route on the y-banana concept is told run through and specifically told not to sit.

Also I think Josh was open on the drag without any changes to his route. I'm not knocking the kid too much on his decision because the back is the primary. But if he looked at Gordon he could have had him.

At the end of the day, I think this is all that really matters.

Even if anyone thought they saw more out of Goff or Wentz as rookies, few people thought these two were going to launch themselves in to MVP territory in year two. Their leaps have been incredible.

We really don't know what kind of progress we're going to see from a young player.

The fact we don't know is reason enough to add a QB in 2018, IMO, but doing so shouldn't somehow disqualify Kizer from having an opportunity to show what kind of progress he makes in his own leap.

At the end of the day, he's received a lot of experience this year, and we know he's a hard working kid. That's reason enough, IMO, to have at least some interest in seeing what he is capable of in year two.

What do you think of this?



https://twitter.com/Andy_Benoit/status/943890766887141376

I agree with those who say don't give up on Kizer, but draft Rosen. We'll never have another chance like this. Hell, keep Kizer and draft Rosen AND Darnold. Whatever it takes to get a damn QB. It has only been 25 years since we had one.

Yes, but some of the route running goes out the window on a scramble. Just thought if he had sat down Kizer could have saw him. But IMO that just wasn't a good play to be running in that situation.

I think we should have run the ball a lot more than we have this year but that's water under the bridge. A lot of things could have been done different to protect a rookie QB who was not ready to play but was by far our most talented QB. Kiser has the size, arm, toughness and athletic ability. Decision making, accuracy and reading coverages need a lot of work. I just hope he can recover from the mental beating he has taken this year.

Yea Ok. good thing we didn't give up on guys like Brady Quinn, Brandon Weeden and Johnny Manziel after thier rookie year, you never know! And all of THEM may have been better than Kizer!

Stop pretending you know more about football than people who actually get paid to be NFL coaches, you sound ridiculous.

No worries...i think we're getting lost in translation. I'm talking about before the scramble.

And I get what your saying...but in fairness to the play design for y-banana the drag is coached to stay in the move.
I think Kiser had plenty of space to hit Josh on the drag. Again I would only grade him down a .5 for the decision and another .5 on ball placement.

What don't you like about that play call in that situation?

Sometimes the defense wins and the Ravens covered that play well. The alert wasnt open. The olb linebacker read and covered Crows primary route and the FB didn't effectively chop him. The RB on that play is usually gets open on that play.

Here's how this works tab.

If he supports the QB's they make it sound like it was Hue's decision to draft them. If Hue utters one critical word about our QB's, he's throwing them under the bus. I'm surprised you didn't pick up on that.