Swish.......bonefish is pretty damn good w/college qbs. He has a history.
I like Rosen. I think bonefish likes Darnold the best. That kinda makes me question my decision on Rosen. Just sayin'....
ok. that doesn't mean i'm just gonna buy into Rosen being the best.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
that's fine. and i'm saying that just because he's done this for years doesn't mean he's always correct.
i respect his opinion, but right now we disagree on who's better.
I think Lamar will have a better career than Rosen. i think him and Darnold, if they come out, will be in the running for ROY.
Last edited by Swish; 12/19/1709:45 PM.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
I'm not even sure why there is a question of who should be the #1 pick in the draft.
Probably because Mayfield trumps Rosen almost across the board.
except for being an NFL ready QB.
He is a project with a noodle arm, bad footwork, terrible mechanics, he panics in the pocket, can't really make progressions from one WR to another, he lacks ideal NFL height and is not fast enough to be a dual threat QB or even try to compare to a Russel Wilson.
He's basically Colt McCoy with a ceiling of Jeff Garcia
I believe the exact opposite of what you said is the truth.
Mayfield doesn't have a noodle arm. In fact, saying that pretty much discredits your entire post.
The only thing you said that might be remotely true is the lack of ideal height. And height isn't an issue for Mayfield. He sees the field well and has a high release, I actually think that maybe Rosen has more batted passed than Mayfield.
Rosen definitely looks the part of quarterback. I think if you want a mechanically sound QB, there you go. Not always the answer however.
I'm not saying Rosen is a bad choice, just that Mayfield is better. My opinion is Mayfield has better pocket awareness and more mobile. Accuracy and arm strength are comparable. Height is unimportant. But where I really love Mayfield is leadership, passion and desire to win. I love he's a two time walk on. I love that he loves to play football. I want the guy teammates will gravitate towards. And no I've never talked to Mayfield or Rosen, but I read and watch games. Those are things I believe are overlooked but just as important.
I've also read where Hue likes Rosen. And I've read where Dorsey likes Mayfield... So this should be interesting.
i think a lot of you guys are looking at who's the better passer, and making the determination from there.
I think that's why guys are ranking Mayfield over Rosen, or Darnold over Rosen, and as myself Lamar over Rosen.
if the NFL was only about passing ability and nothing else, then sure, draft Rosen.
but it's not.
and then on top of that, obviously it's hindsight, but Trubisky has 7 TD's and 7 picks.
watson had 19 TD's and 8 picks, in less games played because of his injury. Trub has 10 games played, watson has 7.
watson is also 61% passing compared to trubisky's 59%. while that's not really a big difference, as i debated during the draft process, i still struggle understanding why you and others somehow thought Trub was a better passer than Watson.
nevermind the nfl, but in college, the stats didn't support that statement, the actual game tape didn't support that statement.
to bring it back to the thread, i'm finding that once again, you guys are pulling the same stuff.
in this case, Rosen could be the better passer....right now.
but without all the other intangibles, including that "it" factor, if being a better passer was all that matters, then Jay Cutler would have 3 superbowls wins.
IMO, Rosen doesn't have that. where is the games where he leads his team to a bigtime win in a game that matters? where's him rallying his team to follow him? where's the players that are willing to run into a brick wall for this guy? where's his ability to extend plays, or create something from a broken play?
Rosen isn't close to being a sure thing. i keep hearing things like "oh, he's NFL ready".
based on what? because he plays in a "pro style" offense? NFL ready doesn't mean he'll be good. all that means is he has a better chance of not sucking at the beginning of the season.
that doesn't mean a whole lot.
Mayfield might not be as good of a passer as Rosen, but the case can be made that he's better at everything else. Darnold might not be as good of a passer, or Lamar, but they have certainly shown to have a lot of other talents that Rosen does not possess.
Trub was a" better" passer than Watson and Mahomes. yet Watson at the nfl level looks like the better QB.
i want guys who know how to Win, who knows how to drag their team to a victory. that's mayfield, darnold, lamar.
i don't see that in Rosen.
This is something I can't seem to shake with Rosen. When I watch him, he ticks all the boxes, yet there is nothing in his game that makes me scream down the walls for him.
As I've said before - my head says Rosen, my heart says Darnold. That's not only because of Darnold's play, but because Rosen doesn't really do anything that infiltrates your heart.
Even his incredible comeback against Texas A&M seemed devoid of emotion. It was like, "Cool, the game plan started working. Well done." It never felt like he was up against the odds, with his back against the wall.
To his credit, he's joe cool in that situation, but it feels like he remains joe cool even if it's going to be a loss.
Rosen is so methodical that he makes it all look routine, but there are rarely moments where I see him capitalize when the plan doesn't work, when he's pressured to find something, to create something, the need to grind one out for a win.
They are 6-6 this year, 3-3 with him the year before and 8-5 with him as a freshman. I never felt a dramatic push. With Goff it was 1-11, 5-7 and 8-5. Each losing game, I felt that dramatic pull when he was trying to find a victory. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it did not. With Rosen, it doesn't seem to matter, he's always locked in just the execution of the game plan. If the play works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't.
There is nothing wrong with that if that's the quarterback you're after. I feel like that's Joe Flacco, Alex Smith. You look at the Brady, Rodgers comebacks and it usually takes magic. With Smith and Flacco, it's more like, "The play worked, and he executed it."
Josh Rosen is a logic selection because he ticks all the boxes, but he's never been a selection you look at and really say, "We HAVE to select this guy." Josh Rosen remains the only guy in this pack that nobody has ever said this about - "There is something special about him."
Because even if he's the best quarterback in the class, there isn't anything special about him.
With that said, I disagree on the prospects. I want no part of Lamar Jackson, and Mayfield greatly concerns me because I think he's a great college QB but will look limited in the NFL.
This is something I can't seem to shake with Rosen. When I watch him, he ticks all the boxes, yet there is nothing in his game that makes me scream down the walls for him.
As I've said before - my head says Rosen, my heart says Darnold. That's not only because of Darnold's play, but because Rosen doesn't really do anything that infiltrates your heart.
Even his incredible comeback against Texas A&M seemed devoid of emotion. It was like, "Cool, the game plan started working. Well done." It never felt like he was up against the odds, with his back against the wall.
To his credit, he's joe cool in that situation, but it feels like he remains joe cool even if it's going to be a loss.
Rosen is so methodical that he makes it all look routine, but there are rarely moments where I see him capitalize when the plan doesn't work, when he's pressured to find something, to create something, the need to grind one out for a win.
They are 6-6 this year, 3-3 with him the year before and 8-5 with him as a freshman. I never felt a dramatic push. With Goff it was 1-11, 5-7 and 8-5. Each losing game, I felt that dramatic pull when he was trying to find a victory. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it did not. With Rosen, it doesn't seem to matter, he's always locked in just the execution of the game plan. If the play works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't.
There is nothing wrong with that if that's the quarterback you're after. I feel like that's Joe Flacco, Alex Smith. You look at the Brady, Rodgers comebacks and it usually takes magic. With Smith and Flacco, it's more like, "The play worked, and he executed it."
Josh Rosen is a logic selection because he ticks all the boxes, but he's never been a selection you look at and really say, "We HAVE to select this guy." Josh Rosen remains the only guy in this pack that nobody has ever said this about - "There is something special about him."
Because even if he's the best quarterback in the class, there isn't anything special about him.
With that said, I disagree on the prospects. I want no part of Lamar Jackson, and Mayfield greatly concerns me because I think he's a great college QB but will look limited in the NFL.
It's posts like this that has me going back and forth between Rosen and Darnold. I think the needle just moved back over to Darnold. I expect it to move several more times before it's over.
1. #GMstrong 2. "I'm just trying to be the best Nick I can be." ~ Nick Chubb 3. Forgive me Elf, I didn’t have faith. ~ Tulsa 4. ClemenZa #1
my biggest concern about darnold is his mechanics and down the field accuracy. He's def. not a step in and start right away. I think whoever we pick, barring a trade or signing of a vet, is going to be asked to play right away, ala Kizer because Hue is still clueless on how to bring along a QB. Given that scenario, Rosen, as many have said, looks more ready to start
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
A lot of people comment on the Qb "most ready to start". I think that is something that should be considered but should not be a major factor. If you include it, you are being comprehensive. If you focus on it you become short sighted.
We need a Qb who is going to stud out for the next 10 years. Being "pro ready" doesn't impact that one way or the other.
Additionally, how often is the most "por ready" player out played from the start by someone who "needs seasoning"?
Am I perfect? No Am I trying to be a better person? Also no
I think it goes a long way in determining how smart a kid is and how well he can grow as a QB. All these kids have pretty much the same amount of time to prepare for the draft. It seems to me like the one who has developed the most and is the most pro ready says a lot about him.
Let's look at something else. Post snap reads are something that you never know if a QB will develop. It's one of the major reasons college QB's never make it in the NFL. A lot of times the mechanics are a little off. The footwork needs to be refined.
While all of these QB's have the same amount of time to prepare for the draft, it seems to me that I'd prefer a kid who checks all of those boxes. Who has learned and prepared well.
The kid didn't have the greatest coach or the greatest team behind him. Yet he has met every bench mark. To me it's pretty clear. Take a kid who checks all the boxes or take a kid with question marks remaining. To me that makes the answer pretty clear.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
I'm not even sure why there is a question of who should be the #1 pick in the draft.
Probably because Mayfield trumps Rosen almost across the board.
except for being an NFL ready QB.
He is a project with a noodle arm, bad footwork, terrible mechanics, he panics in the pocket, can't really make progressions from one WR to another, he lacks ideal NFL height and is not fast enough to be a dual threat QB or even try to compare to a Russel Wilson.
He's basically Colt McCoy with a ceiling of Jeff Garcia
I believe the exact opposite of what you said is the truth.
Mayfield doesn't have a noodle arm. In fact, saying that pretty much discredits your entire post.
The only thing you said that might be remotely true is the lack of ideal height. And height isn't an issue for Mayfield. He sees the field well and has a high release, I actually think that maybe Rosen has more batted passed than Mayfield.
Clearly other scouts and draft analysts agree with me.
One consistent comp I got, once we got past Manziel, was Colt McCoy. Another was Russell Wilson, without quite the arm Wilson has. Mayfield will have to prove he can play on schedule in the NFL, since he’s done so much off-tempo as a collegian, and there will be a learning curve coming from the Sooner spread. But you can bet he’s confident he’ll have a long pro career. And he might be right.
Of those I polled, I could only find one evaluator who believed that Mayfield had a legitimate shot at going in the first round. Most think he’ll go in what one scout referred to as “Dak Prescott territory,” which is to say somewhere in the middle rounds.
Mayfield is undersized for the NFL with just average arm strength, however. He can have issues reading defenses, too. One big area of improvement for Mayfield is his footwork as he gets happy feet in the pocket. One college scouting director told me that Mayfield's feet are terrible.
His immaturity is also a huge issue.
flag planting, crotch grabbing, getting arrested, not willing to shake hands etc etc
You also said he has a noodle arm. And you just posted a link where they said he had an average arm. Of which I also think they're wrong and Mayfield's arm strength is certainly above average.
I've covered the "immaturity" issues and they really aren't anything to be overly concerned with. He's not Johnny Manziel.
It would be a shame to discredit Mayfield just because you think he's just another guy. Russell Wilson is the best quarterback of his draft class and he was drafted 3rd round. In 5 years I fully expect the same of Mayfield.
Thinking about my post, I think I skipped the point and went right to the conclusions. Probably because I wasn't clear on my point to begin with.
I think what I should have focused on was, I think that we are terrible at judging "pro ready". Mostly because the media likes to talk about pro ready but very few college qb's are.
Am I perfect? No Am I trying to be a better person? Also no
That's true. Very few play in a system that requires the actual skill set and system that will be required in the NFL. As such, with most college QB's you're left to project what a QB "might become. Might be able to do" in the NFL.
Often times we see drafted QB's fail in trying to make such a transition. We see that they have trouble transitioning to the skills needed in the pros. Rosen has done nothing but steadily improve all along the way. He has shown that he does well in his post snap reads, progressions and can make every NFL throw.
His mechanics and footwork are sound and he's still very young. Now I know this is a big statement to make, but I honestly believe that he's the best prospect since Andrew Luck. And yes, I'm taking Carson Wentz into account.
I pimped Wentz heavily based on what I thought he could become. And so far he has lived up to that. But coming out of college he certainly didn't have the pedigree of a Josh Rosen.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
This not a right wrong discussion. You see it differently than I do.
You could be right.
College stats in particular do not mean all that much to me. They are worth a look but college stats can be very misleading.
The NFL plays a different game than college.
Unless a NFL team is ready to make changes to their offense to accommodate the skills of Jackson there is no current NFL offense that Jackson could run.
Not his fault. It is where he is in development. He is not fully developed as a passer.
RGIII and Mike Vick were similar in skills from the standpoint of running ability. You can say Lamar is bigger and badder but you could argue that RGIII was a better passer and Vick more elusive and faster. It doesn't matter.
Lamar has a ways to go as a passer to play in a NFL offense.
Until I read proof about Rosen from verifiable sources regarding his character and leadership I will judge him strictly by what I see on the field. We can not verify the "it" factor.
He has the physical tool set to play in the NFL. He is very accurate to all parts of the field. He has excellent footwork. He can read defenses. He can go to secondary receivers. He looks off DB's. It is not by accident. He came out high school as one of the top recruits in the country. Why? Because his skills are obvious.
Luck and Wentz came from pro set college offenses. It helps. Players from a college spread offense have a longer learning curve. Does that mean a spread guy can not succeed. No it does not.
Mayfield has proven to have talent. But he will not be throwing to guys in the NFL that are open by ten plus yards. OK made Weeden look good. Manziel was exciting and made big plays also. Mayfield is small; that is fact. He played in a spread. He has a bigger hill to climb. He may succeed in doing that.
Wilson and Brees are smaller type guys but make no mistake they are NFL passers and came from pro set offenses.
I have stated many times there are plenty ways to get the job done. And in the end it comes down to the player. His skills, how bad he wants it and how hard he prepares to make it happen.
But if you are the GM and are faced with this decision you have to rank the players some way.
I would rank them the following way:
Rosen and Darnold are the top two. You can make a case for either.
Josh Allen will draw plenty of attention.
Mayfield and Jackson offer options. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Mason Rudolph and Luke Faulk will be later round guys.
I have no problem with people seeing it differently than I do. I would expect that. Hell GM's see it differently.
Rosen moves so well within the pocket it is football art. Then he has that tremendous arm and accracy. If he passes the smell test with the other stuff then we draft him.
with that 2nd pick, draft Sutton and give this kid a big target that hopefully wont be high or have a broken hand.
Just want to add, I really like Darnold as well, his upside is off the charts and I am warming to the idea of Lamar Jackson as well.
i thought this was a good discussion on Rosen vs Darnold.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
I'm ok with the comments about Baker. It doesn't sound like he really knew Mayfield like he knows Rosen and Darnold. The comments about being a winner are key and concerns about height are justified as would be with any "short" quarterback, but Baker already does those things. He has been phenomenal from the pocket and finding his lanes. Realistically you are probably in good hands with any of the 3. And I'll pass on Allen and Jackson.
You have to pay attention to the people that have that kind of direct experience. Although Mora is going to stand behind his guy. I like what he has said in regards to both players.
Not unlike what I said about both in the analysis I did. I don't think it is hard to come to that conclusion after watching their game tape.
It is the comments about Rosen the person that I find to be interesting because it comes from direct contact not some BS writer and speculation.
Honestly I feel really good about getting one of these guys. I like both them for different reasons and feel both will do very well.
i dunno bro. you know who i prefer, but honestly, whoever Hue and Dorsey pick, i hope we finally get the guy.
if it's Rosen then so be it. i'm just tired of seeing our WRs Gordon and Coleman, and our TE Njoku run wild, yet we have a QB that can't deliver a basic pass.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Would’ve been nice to see him in the bowl game in national tv.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Good decision, dumb to play when you are almost a lock to be drafted 1 or 2. I wouldn't throw or go to the combine if I were him. I would do my pro day and that's it.
Good decision, dumb to play when you are almost a lock to be drafted 1 or 2. I wouldn't throw or go to the combine if I were him. I would do my pro day and that's it.
If he’s hurt and can’t play, fine. If he’s just not playing because he’s afraid of getting hurt, I think it’s a team game and you play for your teammates. The seniors won’t get another shot and their offensive leader backs out on them, sleazy.
If Rosen decides not to play that's his business. If it were me I'd play in the bowl game and go to the combine. If I'm that good I'd want to show everyone how good and not be afraid of what could be a little criticism. JMO
Good decision, dumb to play when you are almost a lock to be drafted 1 or 2. I wouldn't throw or go to the combine if I were him. I would do my pro day and that's it.
If he’s hurt and can’t play, fine. If he’s just not playing because he’s afraid of getting hurt, I think it’s a team game and you play for your teammates. The seniors won’t get another shot and their offensive leader backs out on them, sleazy.
Ridiculous. This is everything you've worked your entire life for, there is absolutely no chance in hell I am blowing out my knee like Jaylon Smith and losing 20 million dollars.
I've seen this a lot on this board. This morality when it comes to football, I don't give a damn about fans or teammate to that extent.....my teammates will understand...I'ml not chancing 20 million dollars. IF they don't, I don't care I'll sop up their tears with $100 bills.
These players have worked their entire lives for this moment.
Good decision, dumb to play when you are almost a lock to be drafted 1 or 2. I wouldn't throw or go to the combine if I were him. I would do my pro day and that's it.
If he’s hurt and can’t play, fine. If he’s just not playing because he’s afraid of getting hurt, I think it’s a team game and you play for your teammates. The seniors won’t get another shot and their offensive leader backs out on them, sleazy.
The head coach who recruited him and all of those players got fired and wasn't going to coach in the game. Loyalty is a two way street and I'm tired of football organizations thinking that loyalty is one way. That everyone who walks onto their campus or into their building has to be loyal to that organization no matter who they see get fired.
As far as this case is concerned, I might care if he was playing against a good team. I don't think a game against a bad Bill Snyder team will tell us anything we don't know about Rosen.
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