DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Kizer/Hue's 4 Game referendum ;)

Hue didn't want Watson. Hue also said he didn't text him.



Hue wanted Hooker at 12, not Watson, not anybody else.

Watson doesn't fit anything Hue wants his QB to do. It would have never worked. Look no further than RG3 as your proof.

Wentz is doing well because the offense is tailored to him. They add plays to their offense that Wentz ran in college. Hue doesn't do that. Hue wants his QB to run his offense. There's no way of knowing if we'd be in good hands with Hue and Wentz. We could be sitting here debating if Wentz will ever get it and how we wasted the pick when we could have traded back for a kings ransom.

No, we really wouldn't be.

Hey.

Seriously.

Why can't you guys recycle these same arguments in another thread?

I get it that most really aren't interested in breaking down individual plays in depth. But why purposely drown out the actual intent of this thread with more of the usual bickering you can find in almost every other thread?

I mean I get why PitDAWG is doing it...but why can't this thread be reserved for breaking down/discussing plays?

Short of that.....the mods may as well close or merge this thread. How many Hue/Kizer discussions threads does this forum need?

Here are some other examples.



From a personnel perspective they could have used DeValve or especially Njoku at TE there instead of Telfer then maybe that the TE actuals 'wins' on their alert route in the hi-lo read.

What 4 game stretch is a referendum that most supports Hue's time as coach?

If that was a first down play, not 100% sure if it was or not, felt like a run would have been a safer play especially since our rookie QB has been struggling. "Y" banana is a fairly simple play with high degree of success but usually doesn't net you much. It's a good play for short yardage and goal-line, not sure about running it out of our own end zone, that's all.

I didn't like the play call either...the Ravens had been playing a lot of 2-man.

Anyhow here's a different view....if Zeitler didn't get housed on that play then Kizer would have had more of chance to see Josh on the drag

the interception


Raven's coverage outstanding once again.
They get pressure that forces Kizer off his spot.
Downfield coverage was excellent, Gordon is effectively doubled team by CB + Weedle.
Kizer did a good job to evade and reset.
Kizer tries to fit a ball in to Gordon, but couldn't step into the throw. He stops short because the pocket is cramped and couldn't follow through and the pass sails on him.
Intercepted.

No one is open.

Kid pours gasoline on a dumpster fire with his decision to throw it here. Intercepted.

Read something last week about JG modeling his footwork after Tom Brady. One of the focuses of the article was how Tom Brady staggers his feet in the shotgun formation, so he's starting his drop back as he receives the snap. This info would've been good for Kizer as JG is open while Kizer does a quick drop back. The ball has to come out sooner if this is essentially a screen play with a slant route.

Ya! Unless their name is Hue Jackson, they run the ball more.

Which play are you referring to?

The 'gasoline on a dumpster fire'. Judging by the'routes' of the WRs, that's suppose to be a de facto screen play.

I guess it could be a defacto screen as you call it. However; whatever it was supposed to be....it didn't work....I mean it really didn't work....Ravens defended that play very well. In the gifs I posted you can see an overall reoccurring theme there weren't many open options or clean looks. On this play the quick throw to Gordon was covered. Sometimes the best play the only play is for the quarterback to throw it away and live to have another down

In the second GIF I posted of the play I slowed it down at the points where I thought that Kizer could have thrown it and as you can see Gordon isn't open and there's a defensive lineman Jumping Up With His Hands Extended in the passing Lane. The Ravens were all over this play

He's open as Kizer starts his drop back, one step into JG's cut. But the route is poorly ran too, JG needs to break into the slant a step later to create a rub on Higgins. The concept is pretty sound, but the execution is messy. I'm at a family get together on, but when I get home I'll post a link to the concept of the play. Also wasn't this play on 3rd down?

I think we're in agreement though. The Ravens played it very well and Kizer had no chance.

Yea, looks like a middle screen to, I can't make out who, but DeValve and the other WO are both blocking. The defender jumped all over it, like he knew exactly what was coming. No chance to be completed, but Kizer should have thrown it into the stands. But that is something he can learn, just trying to do to much to get a win.

DL #99 is jumping up blocking the passing window to Gordon.


I don't know. Running a tight formation, quick trail/drag screen to the middle of the field in the tight redzone doesn't seem like a good call against a team that had been playing Cover 2 man under most of the game.
JG had been getting tight man coverage all game and bringing him tight to the formation only reducing the distance he has to separate from his defender.

I thought it was a bad call and its tough to execute any play that simply doesn't work against the defensive call.

If that play is called a 100 times against 2-man under defense i don't see how the best outcome is anything other then a 2-3 yard gain. There too many defenders bunched together.

Agreed.
Yup. Kizer was trying to get blood from a stone on that one.

True. But my point, which I've poorly conveyed, is that the throwing window is over the tackle. Not the guard. I've illustrated it (albeit poorly) below:



The circle around his feet is the first point I tried to illustrate. That for quick passes out of the shotgun, the QB should have his feet a bit staggered to make the dropback quicker. Brady and JG have started doing it to great success. Below is just a normal Brady shotgun pass, where he staggers his feet.
https://twitter.com/OmarKelly/status/814102064200646656

Second, the throwing lane is over the tackle, not the guard. It's important to get these balls out quickly so Devalve doesn't get called for the block he puts on their MLB (You'll have to return to your .gif of it, as I see that I clipped that part of play in my .gif). The black lines indicate where the passing lane is. Finally the final circle is to show when Kizer starts his windup. By the time he's halfway through the windup, Gordon's already pass the throwing lane. This is why Kizer needs to drop back differently to help get the ball out quicker. This is in part Gordon's problem. If he takes another step forward before he cuts, then he'll rub his corner off on Higgins, while still keeping the passing lane over the tackle. I would've highlighted it, but I didn't want to clutter the gif.


Yeah, I also think it's a bad play call for the situation. It's 3rd and goal, right? But overall, I think that the play is a solid concept that is executed poorly. With JG's speed, this call is an easy 7 yard gain on most plays outside of the red zone with the ability to go for much more if the blocking is set up correctly.

Good convo.

We agree overall but see the play itself differently.

In general I don't like 'no-read' plays like a screen on 3rd down unless you get the exactly right look from the defense. On 3rd downs you want to give the QB options.
And in this case the play design is a very unusual. Usually when a team throws a quick slant defacto screen its from a spread formation. Doing it from a tight bunch with the route heading into the middle of field only makes it more congested. And you still have Gordon's defender in tight trail position and both DeValves defender and the half field S are unblocked.



I think Kizer could have made that the throw but chose not to risk. I don't think his footwork prevented him from making the throw. And no worries, I understand your point about the pre-snap footwork. Coaches, systems and QBs vary their QBs pre-snap footwork depending on the play and the QBs comfort level. I don't think Kizer's pre-snap footwork prevented him from making the throw.

If you want Gordon to take another step before breaking in on the slant then it nullifies your desire for Kizer to throw it sooner.

Also, if Kizer throws the to Gordon earlier he would have to throw it directly over the LT-DE. That's a tougher throw then it looks like. In the image you posted the throwing lane graphic is directly through the LT-DE. He's either gonna have to throw sidearm between the line or throw it over the LT-DE but that pass is going to be higher then you want.

Agreed that it was a bad call at the time and painfully bad execution. But I actually really like the concept. The more I see it, the more I like it. Not as a 3rd down play, but as a first or second down play, preferably when a safety is deeper. I'll let Josh or Coleman race that safety every day.

The passing lane is between the guard and tackle, not an optimal angle, but neither is throwing a slant over the NT. Kizer's 6'4 and should be able to make that throw. Especially when it's 3rd down and you know the edge will try to speed rush and not bat down the ball. Look at how different the DT and DE play the pass. The DT isn't even lined up on the LOS.

I think Kizer's footwork disabled him to throw it there. The window closes by the time he finishes his drop back. Also, Gordon, running a route deeper would nullify the need for Kizer to finish his drop back sooner as he'd enter the passing lane later. However, it's still important for a QB to know what his WR is going to do and not what the WR is doing in that moment. So I think it'd still be beneficial for Kizer to open up his stance, so he has more time to throw the ball and can adjust to more variables. If the QB starts behind the play then, it's useless, even if the play works out. If Kizer were to finish his drop back a half second earlier, he'd just be waiting for Gordon's cut, which is perfectly acceptable imo.

Great debate btw.

I think you're viewing the play as what could have been vs what happened. You think the execution was poor because imho you expect something different.

To it looks like the execution was fine for the most part but the design of the play is poor.

The receiver on that play would have to outrace 3 defenders. The S is unblocked, DeValve's defender is unblocked and the CB is in trail position.


Remember you are saying that you want Kizer to throw it sooner. If he's throwing it sooner he's not taking as deep a drop which gives him less clearance and he would be throwing before the DE gets into the speed rush. The DE would be directly in the throwing lane and the OL would need to cut block him or find a way to keep his arms down. DE bat passes down all the time.
And it will be easier to bat the ball down when the QB is throwing from a shallow drop directly behind the DE.

But Kizer doesn't choose his footwork. The drop he takes is dictated by the play. The routes are designed in conjunction with the dropback. When the QB reach the 'top' of their drop that is when the pass is supposed to be thrown. If you believe the window is closed by the time Kizer is finished the drop then it means in your view that someone did something wrong. But the odds that Kizer adlib his dropback are low.

Agreed.

I don't know. Maybe it's my Browns colored glasses on. But I don't think that a team that is 0-16 has 'fine execution', especially on broken plays where players are committing downfield penalties, the primary option quits the route, and it ends in an interception. But maybe this is the problem with the Browns? They want fine execution instead of perfect execution.


Devalve's defender takes himself out of the play by following Devalve to the inside and behind. Also, the CB is in trail, but still gives up a 1.5 yard cushion to Gordon on the cut. That's enough room for Gordon to operate imo. When you have players who are quick, you don't need them to have a lot of room. I agree though, that running that on 3rd down from the 8 is planning to fail.

Remember you are saying that you want Kizer to throw it sooner. If he's throwing it sooner he's not taking as deep a drop which gives him less clearance and he would be throwing before the DE gets into the speed rush. The DE would be directly in the throwing lane and the OL would need to cut block him or find a way to keep his arms down.[/quote]
His drop doesn't change by opening up his stance. Did you watch the Brady play for clarification? Or any of the 9ers game today? Opening your stance allows you to drop back quicker, it does not change the distance that you drop back. Also the DE is coming off the D gap, and is speed rushing. He's not in a position to bat the ball down. If you watch it closely, you'll notice the DE doesn't even lift up his head. The passing lane is between the tackle and guard. Not the guard and center. If you're worried about someone swatting the ball down, then look at how the DT plays the pass. At no point does he attempt a pass rush moves. He stays 2 yards off the line of scrimmage, reads Kizer's eyes and jumps. NFL players don't act like Madden, they do not have out of body awareness. Look at the play you posted a .gif of. The DE looks at Kizer after initial penetration and is able to stick his hand in the passing lane. He is not like the DE in the play we were discussing, speed rushing off the edge. Also another prime example of Kizer taking too long and throwing it outside the passing lane.



I don't think Kizer adlibs his dropbacks. I don't think I even suggested such a ridiculous thing. Hearing it out loud sounds crazy. This is a thing that a QB whisperer should be able to help with. Making QB have an easier job against a defense. But I really don't think Hue has watched anyone outside the Browns and probably doesn't have anyone scouting the league for plays and concepts like other successful teams do.

C'mon now. We're having a good convo. Lets not go down the wrong path here. This response literally has nothing to do with what I said.

Who fails on the execution on this play? The protection is fine and that's alone is 7 of the 11 players right there. DeValve and Higgins get on to their blocks. 9 of ll. Then there's Kizer and Gordon. If you want to say that Kizer didn't execute or Gordon didn't execute their assignments that's not the same thing as the whole play was poorly executed.


I'm not sure what you are saying here but the bolded sentence is my overall point with this playcall.


Then what are saying? You've said:

You're saying that Kizer needs to drop back differently and his footwork disabled him from throwing sooner.If you believe there was something wrong with the timing between Kizer's drop and the route then its either the design of the play or Kizer's is messing up his footwork/dropback.

Anyhow, we disagree. I think Kizer could have made the throw when you wanted he was about to throw it but for whatever reason he didn't like and pulled it down. Even if he did throw it barring a herculean effort I don't see Gordon scoring on the play anyway.

Smart play would have been for Kizer to give someone in the stands a gameball or try to run.

When the play has one read, and the ball is up late, this is the equivalent of a running play going down the wrong hole or the RB going the wrong way. The play was poorly executed because the primary actors (JG and Kizer) executed it poorly.





While I believe Kizer needs to switch up his formation in the shotgun, it's not his call to make. This should come from the QB whisperer, especially when said QB whisperer is calling quick slants out of the gun. It should not be relied on the QB with the decision making skills of a drunk driver. Also, Kizer starts his throwing motion while Gordon is running through the passing lane. I don't think he could've made that throw no matter what.

Overall though, I think we agree on most of these topics and are just too used to arguing with other people, which has caused us to miss the point of each other's argument. I don't think the play was good in that moment, but I do think Hue did a good job at designing a play to get his players the ball. Calling it in the Red zone and not on our 30 is a very Hue Jackson thing to do.

Merry Christmas!

Let me start by saying hope you had great Christmas!

It sounds to me that like you have an issue with the play design though. And that's was my point....if you are saying the play is sound yet disagree with how it was executed because of the QBs footwork (which is part of the design) and the way Gordon ran his route (which is part of the design) then you actually have issues with play design.


Also, Kizer starts his throwing motion while Gordon is running through the passing lane. I don't think he could've made that throw no matter what.

He could have made the throw as in he could have physically gotten the throw off. I agree that completing a pass to Gordon that is on target and would have been too risky and like I said before that's why I think Kizer didn't throw it.

If the play design and the playcall fit the situation then you wouldn't have so many IFs in the situation....if that makes sense. If the QBs footwork was different...if the WR ran there route differently...

To me when someone says the play design was good except for the QBs footwork and the route the WR ran but both ran the play as designed....then its a design issue.

That's where we disagree. I don't think the play design was sound and it was exposed because it was called in a bad situation. (i think we agree that the situation for the playcall wasn't good...i.e...condensed part of the field against a 2-man under defense). Imho I think that they could run that same play 9 more times against the same defense in that same situation and the outcome would never be a TD.

Good convo, either way. It hard to discuss plays on the internet without sounding argumentative because we're speaking about sublime/hard to see distinctions. On my end i appreciate a good football convo.

ON that play a real QB would recognize a simple dump off check down as he steps up into the pocket Duke stops blocking and takes off - a simple, simple toss with loads of YAC in a guys hands who can actually take it to the house with that kind of room. Outside of the fact he would have messed up the pass cause he just is not accurate...That is in the category of rookie mistakes that he can improve on. He has to know when DUKE his season #1 WR btw is and count on him when he steps up and its not a high % throw for him...to dump off a little toss up field for Duke to catch and do his thing.

jmho

WRONG POST CLICKED...SORRY COULDN'T DELETE THIS POST!

Hahahahahahahahahahaa.

Dang, I watched that video over and over and couldn't see what you were seeing at all. Then I saw you said "WRONG POST". hahaha Had me goin'.

You can't really say that.

You just nit-picked the kid for not doing something that occurred, 1. On the opposite side of the field to where his eyes had progressed, 2. A fraction of a second before he released the football.

For Kizer to know that Duke was coming off his block and getting open, Kizer would have either needed to be psychic or have eyes in the back of his head.

That's an unfair criticism that exists more for those of us watching the film rather than someone who is actually playing the game. It's hilarious. I see that often in people trying to point out that Kizer missed an open receiver. It's often a criticism that isn't realistic for Kizer to have done in the game.

Sorry, but I disagree. It is called vision and Kizer does not have good vision in my opinion.

I don't know about his vision, but his accuracy is for crap.

He had the vision to find the guy open downfield. It's not like there was any need for him to come off that progression.

The accuracy wasn't there, but why would a QB come off an open downfield route in the hopes of finding an open check down?

Vision only exists within the field of vision. There is no way he could have known Duke was open, and no point in trying to find out.

He's locked onto the receiver the whole way. If he goes through his progressions then anyone could see he should have checked down to Duke on that play, especially since Duke had nothing but Green/White ahead of him. The pocket is collapsing on the side he wants to throw to and just continues to make that 1 read and stick with it.

First I want to thank the people who want to discuss plays in this long lost season.

Second when looking at plays one should divorce themselves of the knowledge of the outcome of the play. Its easy to look at the player after the fact and figure out what the ideal outcome would be and fault the players for not facilitating the ideal outcome. Remember in essence you have already been told the answers to the test.

Third I want to say that everyone looks at plays differently. But I think if someone is looking at plays they should make an effort to do more then hunt for mistakes and only discuss the mistake and not the whole play.

You always have to note the down/distance.


This was a 3rd and long play.
Trips (R) iso (L).

RB has a block then release, his first assignment is to block and doesn't go out into a pattern until he neutralize the rush. Since he's not initially going into a route he's not part of the early progressions he's the 4th progression/checkdown. There would be no reason for Kizer, while under pressure, to turn down an open receiver (holing in the ball longer) to look at the RB.

Starting from the (R) outside receiver their routes are: Vertical/clear out, Drag (Gordon), Njoku 10 yard/get to the 'sticks' out route.

The Iso receiver on the (L) is backside read and not part of the playside progression.

My guess at the progression: 'Hi' read - 'alert' the deep route IF they win by a wide margin then throw it
1st read is Gordon on the drag route. Josh gets doubled by 'Robber' the defense looks like Cover-1 'Robber'.

The pocket is get crushed, while Kizer is going through his 3 read half-field progression.
Coleman gets pushed back and RG#70 is late with the help. LG#75 gets beat clean. The pocket is collapsing as Kizer steps up into the pocket.

Imo makes the correct choice on targeting Njoku.
The timing of the deep out to Njoku was off and Kizer leads him too much. You have to consider that snow is possible factor for the pass being too far out in front of Njoku.

The pass is off target. But, imho you always have to consider the protection and the difficulty of the throw when looking at accuracy.

My next thought is what is the plan here? To throw a deep out, in the snow vs man coverage? *Shurgs* doesn't seem like a sound plan to me. Throwing isolation routes vs man coverage in the snow.