You do realize if he plays mediocre err I mean lights out every week teams would actually game plan against him.
He did this with the Steeler game plan of stop the run and make the kid beat us... why do you think he was 0-19 or something like that when they put pressure on him (not good with stats going on memory of that pff post) Cause usually those were passing downs where the D is geared to STOP HIM. Well imagine what they would do to him if he was the KEY TO OUR O. Ya think he would be better or worse?
I want a QB that will be good when pressured I want an ACCURATE QB to take them apart if they play the run.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
If you watched the two play which I think you did you will know that the two are no comparison at all.
Actually the announcer at the end of our game stated the obvious fact...ACCURACY is what separates these two prospects. Trib has it and Kizer still is searching for it.
There is no comparison...Trib would start for me...Kizer would not.
This isn't strato matic its actual football play.
jmho
Trub wasn’t the most accurate this year either. I watched 3games of trub this year( not a lot admittedly). He didn’t look all that better from Kizer.
If anything, I noticed the coaching staff trying to NOT have their rookie QB throw a thousand times a game. Than ran the ball with Howard and Cohen non stop, and put trub in position to make easy reads.
Which is what is suppose to happen with your rookie QB.
So again bro, I made it clear what QB I want in the draft, but I was just putting it out there that for one who was completely babied most of the season, it wasn’t all that much better compared to the guy who got thrown to the wolves week one with shotty play calling.
Last edited by Swish; 01/02/1806:15 PM.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Kizer was 19th in attempts, 24th in yards, last in completion %, 29th in yards per pass, 29th in TDs, last(first however you want to look at it) in interceptions, took the 8th most sacks, last in QB rating, 28th in yards per game (193)
Trubisky was 28th in attempts, 28th in yards, 27th in completion %, 24th in yards per pass, tied for 32nd in TDs, tied for 8th with fewest INT, 15th in sacks, 28th in In QB rating, and 31st in yards per game (183)
_____________
So, obviously stats don’t tell the whole story, but it’s a good baseline to start with.
What I noticed was how similar the stats are, even though one was completely thrown to the wolves, while the other was completely babied the entire season.
The bears ran the ball constantly week in and week out. We did not. There’s obviously way more to consider, but just on the surface, for one being picked in the 2nd round, and the other 3rd overall, just based on the numbers, plus how the games went down, I wonder how Trubisky would be talked about around here since they posted similar numbers.
Would we be saying draft another QB? Or would we roll with Trubisky?
I'd also consider the rushing numbers. One thing that frustrated me with the red-zone numbers for Kizer was that it was only ever passing - ignoring that he rushed in 5 touchdowns from the red-zone.
Kizer - 77 attempts for 419 yards (5.4) for 5 touchdowns. Trubisky - 41 attempts for 248 yards (6) for 2 touchdowns.
Particularly in the final game, Kizer showed that he's getting better and better using his legs. He finished 4th in rushing behind only Cam Newton, Russell Wilson and Tyrod Taylor for rushing yards, and was tied with Newton for the most rushing TDs by a QB (5). Pretty good company.
I also find it weird that Kizer (553 rush/pass attempts) takes heat for having 9 fumbles, but Trubisky (371 rush/pass attempts) takes no heat for having 10 fumbles.
If you watched the two play which I think you did you will know that the two are no comparison at all.
Actually the announcer at the end of our game stated the obvious fact...ACCURACY is what separates these two prospects. Trib has it and Kizer still is searching for it.
There is no comparison...Trib would start for me...Kizer would not.
This isn't strato matic its actual football play.
jmho
Trub wasn’t the most accurate this year either. I watched 3games of trub this year( not a lot admittedly). He didn’t look all that better from Kizer.
If anything, I noticed the coaching staff trying to NOT have their rookie QB throw a thousand times a game. Than ran the ball with Howard and Cohen non stop, and put trub in position to make easy reads.
Which is what is suppose to happen with your rookie QB.
So again bro, I made it clear what QB I want in the draft, but I was just putting it out there that for one who was completely babied most of the season, it wasn’t all that much better compared to the guy who got thrown to the wolves week one with shotty play calling.
You are in total denial if you think Kizer and Trib are similar in Accuracy...end of story cause no use debating someone who just isn't making sense. Like most of your posts BDU...will give you a pass on this quest of yours. As stated I hope we keep the kid. He's a good kid and hard worker. To put any hope of him being THE GUY...sorry won't believe it till I see it
Later BDU best to the New Year for you!
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
well the numbers say they aren't the same in accuracy, i just said Trub wasn't that much better than Kizer.
also, i'm taking all the circumstances into play. This year Trub had the better year, but you're talking as if Kizer didn't start under a lot of challenging situations compared to Trub.
you seem to be in denial about that.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Similar? Trib close to 60% Kizer close to 50%...yep very similar.
I can only go on what I saw Week 16 for both. One accurate the other not. Can care less what the completion % was.
U have to understand the football IQ of some of these guys ... especially the ones that make their points using stats ... we all know who their for ...
Trib wasn’t babied the entire year ... he was brought along PROPERLY ... i watched every snap he took this year ... they gave him more each week ...
Trib was “innacurate” for Trib ... he struggled with it at times ... NO WHERES near as bad as Kizer ... NOT EVEN CLOSE ... that goes to the IMPROPER USAGE OF STATS that runs rampant on this board .... and the fact some don’t have any clue what going through progressions and looking off safeties means ...
Like i said bro .. u have to remember who your talking to and the football IQ of that poster ...
You keep trying to think that stats tell the entire story. They can be helpful, but it's never the entire story.
that's quite interesting, because:
Originally Posted By: Swish
So, obviously stats don’t tell the whole story,
was right there in that post i created.
so i'll chalk this up to you creating a false narrative.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Similar? Trib close to 60% Kizer close to 50%...yep very similar.
I can only go on what I saw Week 16 for both. One accurate the other not. Can care less what the completion % was.
that's fine. but i disagree.
again, i have made it clear i want a QB in the draft, however, i will not blatantly ignore the situations the QB's were put in.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
why are people talking about IQ's of posters like we get paid to do this or something?
swear some of yall forget that you're nothing more than faceless posters on a browns message board like the rest of us.
we are an 0-16 team. we've won 1 game the last 2 years, 4 games the last 3.
EVERYBODY has been wrong multiples times when it comes to this team, yet people got the nerve to act like they're better than anybody. the browns have already taken the fun out of talking about the team, but yet we got posters who are hellbent on making it even worse.
Last edited by Swish; 01/02/1806:52 PM.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Our rookie QB next year, I'm calling "awful" in every game he fails to put up multiple touchdowns and over 375 yards. I can use any single statistic to justify this. Be that passer rating, completion percentage or YPA. Any one number that isn't great, while ignoring anything that was.
I'm also allowed to claim he faced only back-up players, even if that is completely false.
I get the feeling that will be "over and above" a lot more than saying 375 yards and 2 touchdowns is lights out - which it is. thumbsup
I think the PFF grades are heavily influenced by bad plays. Sure Kizer had 375 yards .... but if he throws 3 picks, did he have a good game? If he scored 0 when under pressure is that a good game? . . . and if he threw only 1 pick, but had 3 interceptions dropped because the defender whiffed ... is that good?
And yes - 260 yards passing and not giving the other team a whiff of a turnover is better than 350 yards with multiple turnover opportunities presented to the other team. What kills a teams chance of winning more than turnovers?? Not much.
Since you are an Aussie - here's a cricketing analogy. Mark Waugh bats 150 not out but drops 6 catches in the slips.... does he get a high grade? probably not.
Last edited by mgh888; 01/02/1807:59 PM.
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
I think the PFF grades are heavily influenced by bad plays. Sure Kizer had 375 yards .... but if he throws 3 picks, did he have a good game? If he scored 0 when under pressure is that a good game? . . . and if he threw only 1 pick, but had 3 interceptions dropped because the defender whiffed ... is that good?
And yes - 260 yards passing and not giving the other team a whiff of a turnover is better than 350 yards with multiple turnover opportunities presented to the other team. What kills a teams chance of winning more than turnovers?? Not much.
Since you are an Aussie - here's a cricketing analogy. Mark Waugh bats 150 not out but drops 6 catches in the slips.... does he get a high grade? probably not.
Perhaps I should put it this way - Nick Foles went 4/11 for 39 yards and 1 interception before he got benched. PFF graded him only 2.7 less than Kizer.
That's utterly indefensible.
Like I've said plenty, I never said his game was perfect. I even mentioned the (two) dropped interceptions in my OP. That's understandable.
What about Coleman's drop? What about the fullback dropping the TD in the endzone? What about Gordon stepping out on what should have been a TD? What about the impressive number of 3rd and long situations that Kizer converted?
To each his own. Personally, I'm thrilled with a performance like that from any rookie. That's lights out. Get me any rookie who puts up 375 yards and 2 touchdowns, and I'll never complain.
Being Australian does not mean I need a cricket analogy. Stick to football.
Talk about looking off the safety...did you get a chance to watch Mayfield?
Not yet .... i watched most of the 1st half Monday night and one other game but thats it so far ..
I’ll shoot u a pm after i’ve watched 5 or 6 more games ....
One thing at least for me based off the one game i did watch ... its going to be hard for me to evaluate him .... theres guys running wide open a lot .... would like to see him throw into more tight windows ... hes very very accurate on the throws he does make .... would like to see some tighter windows ...
Unless you watched each play of each game, I am afraid I have to totally disagree.
Foles went 4/11 ... tells us nothing.
What if the interception was a tipped pass that a WR should have caught because it hit him in the numbers while he was all alone and the deflection took it to the defender? And of the other passes perhaps 4 were drops by the WR of a catchable, well thrown ball? . . . unlikely for sure because you don't bench the QB in those circumstances. But to say "4/11 and an Int" does not even begin to tell the story.
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
Mayfield does not make 3 step, 5 step, or 7 step drops. His feet are all over the place. He makes one or two reads. He is in shotgun almost all of the time. He throws to wide open windows. He plays in the weakest defensive conference in the nation.
I would not draft that dude in the first 3 rounds. Seriously.
We all complain about Kizer not being ready. What makes Mayfield ready? LOL............this is unreal.
Terrible analysis...I know its your guy or the highway.
But tell me how many College QBs nowadays NOT PLAY IN SHOTGUN...you cannot use that analysis.
He post snap read more than any QB I've seen.
Pac12 is the weakest defensive division. He beat Ohio State didn't he? I know their D sucks. Did pretty good against a very good Georgia D also faced TCU twice and they have a good defense.
First 3 rounds??? and you wish all to take you Serious
You comparing him to Kizer in his NFL readiness? Again you lost credibility Vers.
Unreal. smh do you read what you write?
I guess we will butt heads on this one for sure. But man you dropped a big Credibility bomb on yourself.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Terrible analysis...I know its your guy or the highway.
But tell me how many College QBs nowadays NOT PLAY IN SHOTGUN...you cannot use that analysis.
He post snap read more than any QB I've seen.
Pac12 is the weakest defensive division. He beat Ohio State didn't he? I know their D sucks. Did pretty good against a very good Georgia D also faced TCU twice and they have a good defense.
First 3 rounds??? and you wish all to take you Serious
You comparing him to Kizer in his NFL readiness? Again you lost credibility Vers.
Unreal. smh do you read what you write?
I guess we will butt heads on this one for sure. But man you dropped a big Credibility bomb on yourself.
Why are you making this personal? I didn't say one word about you.
Diam, and anyone else who is interested: Here is a video of Mayfield against Texas. The commentary is very favorable. You can listen to him while watching, but I strongly encourage you to watch Mayfield's footwork w/the volume muted.
See if you can see what I am talking about in terms of traditional 3, 5, and 7-step drops. See if you can see the loose footwork and his penchant for throwing off-balance.
It is my opinion that this guy's footwork is very similar to Manziel's. I think it's going to take a lot of coaching to get him to be successful in throwing in NFL pockets.
I have no clue of evaluating talent but that was a great idea turning the volume off, I see much more. I did the same thing with a Rosen clip and I see exactly what you are saying about the footwork. Mayfield is choppy all over the place and never set, Rosen's is smooth controlled and almost always set the moment he throws. Thanks for the tip.
Yeah, I love muting the volume and making my own determination. I later listen to the narrator's analysis to see if there were things I missed, but over the years, I have found a lot of these guys are missing things when watching the videos.
And thanks for the video. The difference in the footwork between the two is immense. Also, the pockets are way different. Oklahoma probably had the best OL in football. UCLA's was terrible. The number of throws into tight windows is also huge.
I don't see anything in Mayfileds game that translates to the pros except "moxie" which is fictitious.
Trade for Smith. Draft Rosen 1. Take Chubb, Minkah, Barkley at 4...in that order depending on availability. Use the assets to continue trading up to get targeted guys. This isn't rocket science. Browns have all the ammunition and leverage to pretty much do whatever they want. All they need to do is not screw it up.
Mechanically Rosen is about as good as you can get at a QB coming out of college. While I'll agree that Baker has some footwork issues and threw off balance on some plays I thought overall he generally kept a good base. His feet generally were shoulder width and he was up on the balls of his feet.
I would not put him on the Manziel level of poor feet. He's somewhere in between.
Heisman Trophy winner, quarterback Baker Mayfield sits atop virtually every advanced statistical category of PFF. This includes his 82.6 adjusted completion percentage (which accounts for drops, throw-aways, spikes, passes batted at the line of scrimmage hits absorbed during the release of the ball), passer rating on deep throws (134.8), under pressure (105.3) and off play-action (156.0), as well as his 85.4 adjusted completion percentage from a clean pocket. Yes, his size, mechanics and some of his antics are concerns for the next level, but there’s no denying how incredibly productive he’s been on the field this season.
Last edited by mgh888; 01/03/1811:58 AM.
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
Heisman Trophy winner, quarterback Baker Mayfield sits atop virtually every advanced statistical category of PFF. This includes his 82.6 adjusted completion percentage (which accounts for drops, throw-aways, spikes, passes batted at the line of scrimmage hits absorbed during the release of the ball), passer rating on deep throws (134.8), under pressure (105.3) and off play-action (156.0), as well as his 85.4 adjusted completion percentage from a clean pocket. Yes, his size, mechanics and some of his antics are concerns for the next level, but there’s no denying how incredibly productive he’s been on the field this season.
I love Baker on the field. I doubt we'll draft him though because of the maturity issues.
I don't think PFF is about stats in any way shape or form. I am not advocating for Mayfield ... but I will take a good look at him between now and April.
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
The one thing I've tried to keep in mind is how what he does well will transfer to the NFL. How much work will he need to do on his footwork and have I seen what I need to in regards to him throwing into tight windows that will certainly be needed in the NFL.
My comments concerning Colt McCoy are simply this. Colt McCoy was the winningest QB in NCAA history. Actually, if you watched the game, the commentators said that Mayfield was tied with McCoy for NCAA victories going into the Rose Bowl. McCoy had over 70% completions playing for Texas. He was a very impressive college QB.
Mayfield certainly has a lot of raw talent. There's no way to deny that. But his transformation to the NFL game will be huge. When you really study him keeping what an NFL QB needs in his arsenal in mind, I think you'll see there are as many questions as there are answers with the kid.
At least that's the answer I came away with.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
I believe Rosen is the best in this draft also, completely agree with you on Mayfield too, I’ll add that I don’t see the big arm everyone on here keeps talking about with him. His arm is decent, nfl caliber but wouldn’t say he’s got a big arm. Footwork is not good. Makes no reads whatsoever before the snap, that’s a big red flag for me. I know you said to mute the volume but I wanted to hear what the guy had to say, what an idiot, compared his release to Garapolo, not even close, way slower. I like a guy with a quick release.
I’m curious about your take on another QB who hasn’t declared yet, and may not, Drew Locke. Missouri. He’s thinking about coming out but got a bad review from the advisory board. Again, he’s another spread QB, but I believe next year the new coach or coordinator will be Rosen’s old coordinator or coach, could either elevate the kid or hurt him. It should be a more pro ready offense. Not thinking of him for the Browns exactly just saw some things I liked.
Another QB I like is Mike White, anxious to see him play at the senior bowl, but he wouldn't be a first round pick and that would just throw a lot of people over the edge if i suggested passing on a first round QB and take one in the second. But if both Rosen and Darnold go back I think this could be my guy. He would need to sit and learn though.
Terrible analysis...I know its your guy or the highway.
But tell me how many College QBs nowadays NOT PLAY IN SHOTGUN...you cannot use that analysis.
He post snap read more than any QB I've seen.
Pac12 is the weakest defensive division. He beat Ohio State didn't he? I know their D sucks. Did pretty good against a very good Georgia D also faced TCU twice and they have a good defense.
First 3 rounds??? and you wish all to take you Serious
You comparing him to Kizer in his NFL readiness? Again you lost credibility Vers.
Unreal. smh do you read what you write?
I guess we will butt heads on this one for sure. But man you dropped a big Credibility bomb on yourself.
Why are you making this personal? I didn't say one word about you.
I would not draft that dude in the first 3 rounds. Seriously.
Well considering I've been his biggest backer on this Board for him to become a Brown. I found that to be rather insulting.
I realize that many times you don't even know that you are insulting somebody. I don't even think you do it on PURPOSE but never the less it was hard not to take it personal.
Especially as I've held back on criticism on Rosen cause I didn't wish to ruffle your feathers. So I say things like I haven't seen him enough to comment on him. But one thing has to be certain about, did he state outright that he doesn't want us to draft him? If so I don't see why we should take him he ain't that good.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
By what I've read, Rosen was going to announce whether he was going pro or not on Colin Cowherd's program. Cowherd has been vocal about the Rosen staying in school if the Browns had the top pick in the draft. I have seen nothing from Rosen making the statement, just Cowherd's insinuations.
The Cleveland Browns - WE KNOW QUARTERBACKS ( Look at how many we've had ... )
But one thing has to be certain about, did he state outright that he doesn't want us to draft him? If so I don't see why we should take him he ain't that good.
jmho
Actually Tab he is that good. I believe he's the best prospect since Andrew Luck. We just have to hope Dorsey is the man who can put the right talent around him to allow him to flourish.
And no, Rosen never said he didn't want to play for the Browns. People are reaching and putting words in his mouth. Here is what he said....
Quote:
"I'd rather be a lower pick at the right team than a higher at the wrong team."
In a conspiracy theory people can see what they want. What it actually says is he would rather go to a good team lower in the draft than a poor team near the top. Not a word about the Browns.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
I don't believe the stuff about Rosen refusing to play for the Browns. He just declared, so he has no leverage, and he hasn't explicitly put it out there. I would imagine he would like to play for the best team he can play for, but realizes that isn't how the draft works.
I like him. I like Allen, too. I don't know much about Darnold except what I saw against Ohio State. Not impressive. I think Kizer with a year in the fire and an off season to work could be much better. But I'd go Rosen, then Allen. These things change a lot between now and the draft, needless to say.
every week teams would actually game plan against him.
