DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Is hue gone part 2 ...

Should we believe that you are the owner of the truth and that you know what went behind closed doors?

IMHO the 1-31 record says it all, both Sashi and Hue are the most incompetent GM and HC in the history of the Browns...

And for your info, very few defend Sashi... the whole Sashi Vs. Hue argument does not proceed.

No, it wasn't Hue. Thank god! His influence was with the QBs and it was clear that was a failed endeavor from the get-go. But yes, Sashi was the final decision-maker, if one needed to be had and directed the plan from the day he took office. But Berry and his team of scouts were the talent evaluators. Unfortunately, the plan was heading in the right direction until he was fired. Now, another reboot. It's too bad people cannot see what the main issue is with the Browns since '99.

I'm looking forward to what happens with the plethora of draft picks, cap space and young players. You aren't?

I'm the owner of the results. We all are. And the results indicate that Sashi was the issue.

So, did we start winning when Sashi was fired?
Did Hue suddenly became a competent coach?
Do you have information that Sashi was calling the games?

At least Sashi stood by his coach and by his project, actually I think this was his biggest fault, this and thinking you can get superior talent in lower rounds...

You, and some others here, are putting a lot of faith in Hue. Look what happened to Sashi's reputation...

asinine

So it was Hue who missed on the QB's but he's still here? I'm not saying what happened behind closed door, but does that really add up when you consider that he was the one who was kept? You see, I'm depending on the results of what happened to form my opinions. Not on reporters or corporate employees who simply repeat the company line in the press. I'm looking at the events that unfolded and forming an opinion around that.

It was Sashi who was responsible for forming and hiring those scouts and depending on those scouts. It was Sashi who reached for Cory Coleman and those mid round WR's in a very poor WR class. And while it's just a guess, the picks and moves at the QB position has an analytics smell all over it.

Does that make my opinion correct? Not necessarily. It does however make just as much sense as anything that has been posted to the contrary.

I'm thrilled to have the draft picks and cap space that we do have. I feel it's a great position to be in. Yet if you look at it from the other direction, it's the position you find yourself in when you trade down every year by selecting quantity over quality and hoard your cap space on an annual basis. You keep kicking the can down the road and don't commit to drafting a QB or premiere players.

Finally we went with BPA last year and drafted Garrett.

What I'm most happy about is being in this position with football people in charge. People I have far more confidence in than Sashi Brown. If you look strictly at analytics, QB's would almost never be a #1 overall pick. From a purely statistical standpoint, there are usually other players who would rate higher. But football people fully understand that there's a huge premium at the position. That QB's are more worthy of consideration than any other position.

You seem to think the plan was headed in the right direction. Yet after two years we had zero in the way of a QB. Zero in regards to the WR's. Zero in the way of a secondary. If that's the right direction, I want to head in the wrong direction. lol

Now you used the term re-boot. Not hardly. Upgrade in talent evaluation? Yes. But we will have the same O, the same D and our players know the coaches and systems. A tweak maybe. An upgrade in acquiring talent? I would say very probably. But that's not a re-boot.

I believe that we're all looking forward to April with high expectations, including Pit. But getting shoved under the rug (for the most part) is the guy who gave us this bonanza. Yep, you know who...

Sashi created his own reputation. But these days people love to pass the buck and lay the responsibilities at the feet of others.

Just like the fact that we have a terrible QB and four WR's drafted from a week WR class and it's Hues fault they can't execute the plays.

I stopped here although I do appreciate that you provided a lenghty, and I'm sure, thoughtful response. However when you lead with a Jimmy Haslem decision as the justification to your debate and why someone is here and why someone else isn't.....you don't really have a debate.

Good Jimmy Haslem decision making when it comes to this football team is essentially non-existent.

Well it's fine that you feel the need to throw the baby out with the bath water and refuse to read the rest. That's how thoughtful debates are built! lol

I'm not a big Haslam fan myself. But here's what I know. Both men reported to Haslam. Haslam knew full well how each of them felt about the moves that were made. Over almost a two year period it isn't some feat of genius to know which man had a better grip on things. Whose opinions and decisions turned out to be right and which man was wrong.

To me that's a fairly simple process or I'd probably agree with you that Haslam couln't handle it.

You are correct. There is no re-boot required; we simply need to continue adding talent to those brought in by Sashi. Yes, we were heading in the right direction...

Maybe we're just talking semantics here. I'm not saying we were headed in the wrong direction. I'd just like to see that right direction moving at a little more than a snails pace.

It's not about which person's opinion of the two turned out right (which we don't even know). It's which person Haslem decided to listen to and move on with. Those are two VERY different things. Just because Hue is here doesn't mean it is the right decision out of the various options Haslem had. I think we can agree just because Haslem has made a decision on something since owning the Browns doesn't mean it ended up being the right move. Why is this situation any different? Because you didn't like Sashi? That doesn't really hold water. The plan got 18 months! 18 MONTHS! That's such a joke and Haslem's constant changing of FO and coaching staffs has been the main reason why this team is where it is.

But by your logic, Haslem's constant hires/fires were the right moves and decisions to make over and over again, because, you know, those opinions that influenced him were right. Nah, man. Not buying that.

Not necessarily. When he hired Sashi who had NO experience at his job and Depodesta who was a baseball numbers guy I felt he was dead wrong. But I still had to try to support them.

So you think that who was right and who was wrong had nothing to do with Haslams decision. To me that makes zero sense.

Let me tell you what makes a lot more sense. After two drafts and well into a failed second season, he knew which man had been right most of the time and which man had been wrong most of the time.

That makes sense. You know what doesn't make sense? Listening to the guy who was wrong most of the time while firing the guy who was right most of the time.

Because that seems to pretty much be your scenario here.

We must be in a bizarro world... the guy who got fired because he had the stones to stick to the plan that was working did a good enough job that his replacement has something to build on... but we kept the 1-31 coach who can't point to a single thing that he himself has established in 2 years.

It's just strange

To your point here, Memphis, The Athletic did an outstanding in-depth, four-part piece on Haslam and your comment reminded me of a specific comment in the piece...

“I get the sense that Haslam is so pliable that it’s really who has his ear last,” a former league executive said. “You don’t want to talk to him at 7:30 in the morning. You want to talk to him at 7:30 at night.”

I think when it came down to it, Hue was the first to break ranks when the losses piled up. Jimmy wants to be portrayed as a "football guy" so when Hue is called to the carpet about the losses and team performance, he throws Sashi under the bus to protect his own arse. Notice it isn't until after a couple of winnable midseason games that Hue starts making comments about not having good enough players on the team? And to that Sashi and DePo installing an unorthodox way to build the team... If it is true Jimmy started calling up some of the reporter types (likely some who ridiculed the Browns in the first place when we went with this approach)... I can totally see Jimmy caving and tossing out Sashi... not because Sashi did a bad job, but to secure his own reputation as that "football guy" he wants to be known as. It's also why he's latching on to Hue and throwing that phrase around.

Some of you guys certainly manage to come up with some creative theories and scenarios. I'll grant you that.

That makes little sense. Have you watched Hue manage a game? Have you watch him punt the running game two years in a row? Did you see a coach mishandle talent and force his coaching schem to players rather than the other way around? The constant throwing players under the bus? Hue was right "most of the time"? Where can this be unequivically stated as a fact? It's been an abortion.

This team has talent beyond a 1-31 record. And that's pretty much where the debate begins and ends for you and I.

Where we also differ is Hue's impact on the QB (or no QB) here is Cleveland. If you don't want to listen to Mike Silver the day after the draft that Hue didn't want Wentz at 2 and won't believe that Hue was the catalyst behind the absolutely horrendous trade offer for McCarron, and don't want to believe the direct quotes from Sashi each of the past two years how integral Hue is to the QB seach and Haslem's talk about Hue being a QB guru as one of the main reasons why he was hired here, then politely keep your head in the sand. If anything Sashi should be criticized for not having told Hue to go worry about coaching and let his scouts and Berry deal with everything, including the QB.

And we go into this year with a GM who didn't get to pick his coach. You know, because this has consistently worked out so well in the past. If/when the change is made, another coach will come in with his desired player traits, the previously drafted players may not fit, and then the record continues to suck, then that GM gets fired (and maybe the coach too). And the cycle continues....like it always has.

I agree with your post, Memphis. However, at some point the cycle will be broken; I truly believe that. I simply don't know who will be the one do it...hopefully Dorsey.

Milk Man... do you have a link to that article, i'd like to read that

This is correct. Hue was in charge of the quarterback position. This is why he took the job with the Browns in the first place.






Many didn't see Coleman as a reach, he was the #1 rated WR in the draft. It's not Coleman's fault he's had garbage throwing to him and he's had two fluke hand injuries.






Thanks Hue.






Sashi wasn't the talent evaluator. Sashi pretty much had the same job he had before he became the "general manager" but with a few additional perks. I'm sure he was in Haslam's ear about how he could fix this and that he knew guys who could help, Depodesta, Berry. The 3 of them together would more or less constitute the role of "GM." At the moment Depodesta and Berry are still here.





You and all the other "football lifers" around the NFL. Could you imagine what would happen if 3 non-football lifers from Harvard turned the Browns into a winner? The audacity! We simply can't have it! For all the people trying to work their way up the ranks, it is unfair for 3 Harvard guys to interrupt the "fraternity" that is the NFL. You have to wait your turn, not jump the line.

Haslam brought in guys like Kraft, Manning, and Singletary. I'd imagine they all preached to him about having continuity and football people in charge. And where are we? Keeping Hue while adding football lifer John Dorsey.


This isn't really rocket science.

We've never had football guys before in the FO. Let's give this new exciting opportunity a chance.

Hue Jackson preferred Carson Wentz over Jared Goff in '16 draft, sources say

CARSON, Ca. -- Browns coach Hue Jackson preferred Carson Wentz over Jared Goff in the 2016 draft, league sources told cleveland.com.

When the Rams traded up to No. 1 in 2016 to draft Goff, everyone assumed that the Browns opted not to take Wentz at No. 2 because Jackson only had eyes for Goff.

Turns out that wasn't the case at all.

When Jackson and then assistant head coach/offense Pep Hamilton worked out Wentz privately before the draft, they were blown away -- and instantly sold on him as their quarterback of the future, the sources said.

They had sent Wentz a package of plays the day before, and when they put him on the board to diagram them, he had memorized everything -- something no one else they worked out privately was able to do, especially not so quickly.

Wentz's football acumen pushed him over the top into No. 1 status for them, the sources said. He already had all the physical tools, and Jackson wasn't scared off by him playing at North Dakota State, because he had coached Joe Flacco out of Delaware as a rookie.

Others assumed that Jackson was partial to Goff because he had coached at Cal and had the inside track to him. He also workout out Goff privately and spent extra time with him pre-draft. It behooved him not to show his hand so as to throw off other teams, the source said.

But Wentz was the real apple of his eye, the sources said.

Jackson was also the only NFL head coach to attend Wentz's Pro Day at North Dakota State because of a blizzard that kept most away. There, Jackson, Hamilton and Browns Vice President of Player Personnel Andrew Berry had an up-close and personal look at Wentz, and put him through the paces.

Hamilton, like he had done with Goff, squirted the ball with water and did other things to make sure he was right for the AFC North. His first throw of the wet ball was a duck, but he aced everything else about the workout.

So why didn't the Browns draft Wentz, who's in the running for NFL MVP and has the Eagles at 10-1 this season heading into today's game against the Seahawks?

As everyone knows by now, the Browns' front office had determined that Wentz wasn't going to be a top-20 quarterback, which Chief Strategy Officer Paul DePodesta revealed in an interview with ESPN Cleveland before the 2016 season.

"I think the hardest part, and where we have to stay the most disciplined, as much as you want a player, you can't invent him if he doesn't exist,'' DePodesta said. "In a given year, there may be two or three NFL-ready quarterbacks at the college level. In another year, there literally may be zero. There just may be not be anybody in that year who's good enough to be a top-20 quarterback in the NFL.

"Even though you have a desperate need for one, you have to resist the temptation of taking that guy just because you have a need if you don't believe he's one of those 20 guys at the end of the day. I think that's the hardest part, just maintaining your discipline because you have the need. That's what we did this year."

Of course, Wentz has climbed to No. 4 in the NFL this year with a 104.0 rating, and is showing flashes of being a superstar. He's thrown 28 touchdown passes against only five interceptions, and has dazzled the NFL with his ability to escape trouble and put the ball on the money.

One NFL personnel executive told cleveland.com early this season that when all is said and done, Wentz will be right up there with Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees. It was the same exec who told cleveland.com at the Senior Bowl in January of 2016 "if the Browns draft Carson Wentz they'll be set for the next 15 years.''

Of course, Goff has lived up to his No. 1 draft status this season too, heading into Sunday's game as the No. 8 overall QB with a 98.6 rating, and has the Rams at 8-3.

As for Wentz, sources said he felt the Browns were going to draft him because of how much Jackson liked him. The two developed a good working relationship before the 2016 draft, and Wentz thought he was coming to Cleveland.

Instead, the Browns traded the No. 2 overall pick to Philadelphia for a boatload of draft picks. So far, those picks have been used on Corey Coleman, right tackle Shon Coleman, quarterback Cody Kessler, receiver Ricardo Louis, safety Derrick Kindred, receiver Jordan Payton, offensive lineman Spencer Drango, Jabrill Peppers and DeShone Kizer.

They also still have an extra first-rounder in 2018 from the Texans and an extra second-rounder from the Eagles in 2018 from that original trade.

One source said the new Browns front office always intended to trade that No. 2 pick because they needed so many players, and that there was talk of it as early as January.

When the Browns played the Eagles in the 2016 opener -- a 29-10 beatdown by Philly -- Jackson felt he got a chilly reception before the game from Wentz because of the snub and the "not top 20" comment, sources said.

As for Hamilton, who doubled as the Browns' QB coach, he left Cleveland after the 2016 season and took over as Michigan's passing game coordinator, dismayed that the Browns were so far off on their QB evaluations that season, sources said.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/12/hue_jackson_preferred_carson_w.html

Let me guess. You're not going to read it because you didn't like the headline? lol

The reason I keep hearing to retain Hue is CONTINUITY.

Though, there are a few people who swear he's a great HC. That's fine. So far he's failed and being rewarded.


One thing I do know and believe is that at some point Haslam will stumble upon a winning combo, perhaps this is it?

The problem I see, however, is we could go 5-11 or 6-10 and people will praise Hue (and falsely tell all the Pro-Sashi folks how right they were) because he's finally getting talent as John Dorsey weeds out the Sashi players. Meanwhile, we had the talent and we could have been 10-6 in the 3rd year with a real HC.

Wentz was my guy, was since I first started watching him a sophomore, pissed we passed on him and hate the eagles for offering us that trade. Regardless whose fault it was.

I'm not going to read it because (1) I already did and (2) it conveniently came 18 months after the pick was made and what Silver said Hue told him about Hue not wanting Wentz at #2.

What do you thinks carry more weight....information that comes right when something happens (like the Wentz selection) or during a power struggle when you've already shown to used the media, and your daughter, to get the FO fired and save your job?

So Hue's mouthpiece goes to bat for Hue when Wentz was selected in 2016 but then Mary Kay runs with that article towards the end of 2017.....C'mon, you're smarter than that. Seriously, I know you are.

Well, we don't know that.

Yeah, it came AFTER Sashi was fired.

That's how things like that are supposed to be done. Not while he was here. You just love to make excuses to ignore everything that doesn't go along with your agenda. Suck it up Buttercup. Hue is still here and Sashi is gone. Like I said, there are legitimate reasons for that.

I just posted one above.

I am not a fan of Hue, don't care about all the he said this and the other one said that stuff, none of that is why I don't like Hue, I just don't know what it is that the guy has done to deserve to stay. He mishandled Kizer, whether Kizer is ever gonna be a legit QB or not, he was not handled right. Some people on here say we had to do what Hue did to try and win games, play Kizer to early, abandon the run, etc.. I think I'd rather have seen them handle the kid the right way and sacrifice some wins, well we really didn't sacrifice anything I guess. All my dislike comes from what Hue did or rather didn't do, as coach. I also really dislike how he deflects any culpability he has in this whole thing, that to me speaks volumes. As a coach you take the blame even if it is the players miscues that cost a game. And you don't blame the FO you just keep your mouth shut about that stuff, it's what you do. Called professionalism.

I'm smart enough to know that Hue wasn't kept because the things he told Haslam were wrong. Just like I'm smart enough to know that Sashi wasn't fired because the things he told Haslam were right. You're math is on drugs. lol

I, as a fan, don't know why he was kept, but am sure there was a reason, not sure if it's because of what he said to Haslam or not. To me it would be hard convincing anyone 1-31 isn't my fault as a coach, at least to some degree.

No, it wasn't. This story came out before Sashi was fired (three days to be exact), just like most everything else that Hue leaked out. Check the facts again before you claim that's how it's "supposed to be done" & before you claim people are making excuses about this situation. Again, you're smarter than this, right?

What I am talking about it the stuff from Mike Silver literally right after the draft, not 10 months AFTER it.

To clarify, MKC's article came out on Dec. 3rd. Sashi Brown was fired on Dec. 7th.

Details, details. lol

Yeah, Hue leaked the story. How convenient of you to just throw crap against the wall in hopes that it sticks. Just another wild accusation thrown out by you with nothing to back it up. I don't know why I'm surprised.

What are these things being told to Haslam that you keep mentioning?

I agree 100% ... it is actually beyond strange ... but sometimes beyond strange is exactly the right thing to do ... and in this case ...

IT WAS CLEARLY THE RIGHT THING TO DO ... and I’m no longer a HUE fan ... i’m fine either way with him .. if we keep him, fine .. if we toast him, thats fine to ...

U need football guys making personal decisions not lawyers ... Sashi should have never been given the personal powers he was given .... HORRIBLE HORRIBLE HIRE by the thief ... Sashi paid for it ...

Sashi done what he does EXCELLENTLY ... he left us with a ton of VALUABLE PICKS and in great shape cap wise ... he also got some decent young players in ... now we need the football guys to come in and BRING IT HOME ...

U and some others don’t seem to understand the importance of FOOTBALL GUYS is charge of personal ... TWO specific areas point out Sashi and the structure the thief put in place DEFENCIES ...

QB and DB’s ... we had ZERO VETERAN LEADERSHIP in those positions ... ZERO ... we actually had NO QB ... look at the QB room he had ...

BLAME WHOEVER U LIKE ... it was Sashi’s job with final say ... if he listened to Hue ... TOUGH NUGGIES ... and i stay out of the he said she said crap with the QB stuff ... but one thing i will say ... i highly doubt Hue was on board with that QB room ... if he was ... SHAME ON HIM ...

We need FOOTBALL GUYS to finish the plan off .. and thats what the thief did .. BROUGHT IN A FOOTBALL GUY and now Dorsey made what everyone seems to think is a great hire ... WE’LL SEE about that one ...

Sometimes STRANGE is exactly whats needed .. and this was one of those situations!!!!!

Dorsey should not have accepted the job unless he was able to fire Hue. That should have been done on day 1.

He got fired because winning the draft pick count and cap space games don't equal winning games. The browns lack experience and talent at most positions (including the most important one!). You can't expect to play mistake free football with a very young team.

Hue has his own cross to carry (as OverToad used to say), but you can't win without talent.