DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Coaches on the hot seat

High horse? I thought it was you who went after me?

No I did not. I gave my opinion on Hue and you basically went off on me about his play calling. I know I am not the only one who has issues with Hue's game management. Just because you called plays does not take precedent over those of us that have watched football for over 40 years and know a good head coach from a not-so-good head coach.

Notice i say head coach. Hue is a fine coordinator, I am sure, but not a coach who will take a team to a title as head coach.

The way I look at it is simple. We were told in 2016, that under the plan, The Browns were going to lose for several years. That it would be painful to the team, the fans, the media, and the coaching staff. The plan was to lose now to set up a foundation for long term success. No more 4 - 12. No more 5 - 11. No more picking just outside of the top 5 in the draft. The only the the Browns were going to get better was to LOSE, so they could get enough high draft picks to lay a foundation to win. WE WERE TOLD. This was the plan. The plan was to lose. The plan was to build draft picks. Even to trade down and get more draft picks. EVERYONE WAS SUPPOSEDLY ON BOARD.

The Media made fun of the team, called them losers. The coaching staff said they had no idea it would be this bad. EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE TOLD. To be forewarned is to be forearmed.. but many were not. I expected this.. many here did. Many also, only thought they did. We all knew that the FO would not hit on every pick. That is why they traded down and for multiple picks. To get more chances. I knew it would be humiliating. Far worse that THE FUMBLE. Far worse the RED RIGHT 88, but if wanted to grow, to get TALENT, we would have to lose. No more halfway measures. We Lost. Now people who claimed they understood, can not handle the losing.

The Plan is only halfway done. It takes time. I expect the #1 pick next year too. I "know" it will be top be a top 5 pick, and I'm ok with that, because we need to grow and get better. It doesn't mean I won't be upset with losses. It just means I understand the plan. In year 4, when our 2016 draft picks are in their final contract year ( 2019 season ), I expect us to finally win. I think Hue will still be here then. He deserves to be here then. Growing pains are hard, and growth takes time.

JMHO

I don't pay much attention to those.I know he is here. Hue isn't going anywhere unless he does something stupid between now and the start of the season.

I try to keep this on point and not get personal about things. I take back any bet offers, it's stupid on a message board, though Pit can verify I pay off on any bets I make.

Our only difference is you think Hue is good and will hire a good coordinator, and I don't. No big deal.

I hope we start winning games next year. My only point is Hue should be out of grace period. He has had 32 games. We can't expect to be sitting at 0-4. Heck, at 0-1 Hue will already become a distraction.

Wasn't sure which thread to post this in:

Packers dump a pair of key offensive assistants

Mike Florio
ProFootball Talk on NBC Sports•Jan 3, 2018, 6:19 PM

The Packers soon will have a new football boss. His primary subordinate apparently is doing what he can to straighten up the workplace before that happens.

The Packers, at the behest presumably of coach Mike McCarthy, have fired offensive coordinator Edgar Bennett and quarterbacks coach Alex Van Pelt, according to ESPN.

The moves mean that the Packers will have dumped both the team’s offensive coordinator and defensive coordinator in the same week. Short of firing McCarthy and/or firing all of the assistant coaches, it’s the most significant shakeup of the coaching staff possible.

Team president Mark Murphy told reporters on Tuesday that the new General Manager will have the power to hire and fire the head coach. The head coach possibly is doing everything he can to make the best possible impression on the new G.M. in 2018, so that the new G.M. will choose not to hire his own coach in 2019.



https://sports.yahoo.com/packers-dump-pair-key-offensive-231941318.html

I am not positive, but I think Alex Van Pelt has a pretty good reputation. I wonder if he would be a fit for our OC job?

Who is Hamilton?

I'll take Edgar Bennett to run the football

Ah Pep Hamilton. Gotcha
Funny, I never think of him as anything other than Pep Hamilton. Like it is one word. Never Pep, never Hamilton. Always Pep Hamilton. Weird I know.

Advice for Cleveland Browns coach Hue Jackson -- Terry Pluto

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2018/01/advice_for_cleveland_browns_co.html



By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer

terrypluto2003@yahoo.com

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- I can write a book about all the things Hue Jackson should change heading into 2018.

The Cleveland Browns coach obviously needs a lot of help with game management.

Jackson managed to appear to be doing too much during games ... and not enough.

Too much, as in too much micromanaging his quarterbacks.

THE COORDINATOR

Jackson is planning to hire an offensive coordinator and will give the man the duty of play-calling.

At least that's the plan.

But I wonder how much of the play-calling Jackson will really surrender.

He also needs a quarterback coach who has the freedom to actually coach the quarterback. They hired David Lee as quarterback coach last season, but he didn't seem to have much of a role.

Jackson was always with rookie quarterback DeShone Kizer in practice and games. Kizer rarely mentioned Lee. It was obvious nearly all of his coaching was coming from Jackson.

Calling plays and intensive coaching of the quarterbacks is a job in itself -- not something for the head coach to do on the side.

I just wonder if Jackson will be willing to delegate.

If he wants to be a better head coach, he will do so.

I also would like to hear Jackson discuss the defense once in a while.

He simply defers to Gregg Williams when questions about that side of the ball arise.

Jackson needs to remember he's the HEAD COACH, and that involves the entire team.

SPECIAL TEAMS

I don't think Chris Tabor is an awful special teams coach, despite how those units played this season.

When Tabor had some veteran players on special teams, his units were respectable.

But the last front office had little interest in keeping veterans to help the special teams -- other than adding veteran punter Britton Colquitt.

What does Jackson think about special teams?

Hard to know, because he rarely mentions them.

That makes me think he doesn't value special teams.

I don't know how much of this falls on Tabor.

Here are his rankings the last four years by Football Outsiders:

2014: 14th
2015: 15th
2016: 26th
2017: 27th

The fall came in the last two years when veterans were wiped off the rosters.

I do know new general manager John Dorsey values special teams. He had excellent units with the Kansas City Chiefs.

Dorsey needs to insist they shape up.

STOP THE EXCUSES

1. No more talk about the team being "too young."

2. No more talk about the team "needing to play a perfect game to win."

3. No more talk hinting that he had nothing to do with picking the roster. Jackson quickly separated himself from the last front office.

Players such as Jason McCourty and Duke Johnson said they grew tired of hearing about the lack of talent.

When a coach dwells on that, the players take it as an insult.

Yes, the Browns had the youngest team in the NFL.

But here's what McCourty told the media after the Browns loss to Pittsburgh:

"The talent in this locker room is not the talent to go win a Super Bowl this year. But this locker room is far more talented than 0-16... I'm kind of tired of hearing so many people say, even within the organization, is we don't have the guys or we need more guys. Let's work with the guys we do have and find ways to win games."

From McCourty's lips to Jackson's ear.

And Dorsey should put an exclamation point next to those comments so that Jackson understands the harm he did to his team with what comes across as excuse making.

There's no doubt that Jackson needs to delegate more and focus more on being the HC. That's certainly something I would like to see.

But there was something about the article I found to be a little disingenuous. On one hand Pluto said he should delegate more, then he calls him out for having Williams answer questions about the D and handling the D.

It sounds like he has actually delegated the responsibility for the D to Williams just as the author suggests and the author turns around and criticizes him for doing just that.

I'm wondering if Hue is actually giving up play calling duties or Pluto is projecting what he thinks will happen.

I can't see Zampese being a candidate if that is the case since that is what he was fired for.

I think it's speculation. I haven't seen anything definitive saying Hue Jackson will give up the playing calling.

There’s a difference between delegating and completely ignoring

I'm quite confident that you believe you know exactly where that line is. Your post is a prime example why no matter what he does, some people will try to find fault.

when he doesn't delegate he's trying to do too much and when he does he isn't doing his job. Shameful.

j/c

Get Tabor outta here! I am so sick of the excuses and the miscues.



All this tells me is that he's steadily declined while here. I'm praying Seely gets fired from the Raiders and we're smart enough to grab him.

What are his PFF rankings the past four years?

Seely the last four years (2014 was with 49ers):

2014: 24th
2015: 19th
2016: 14th
2017: 17th

Football Outsiders Team Efficiency Rankings

The guy associated with John Dorsey and likely in line for a HC position in the near future is KC ST coordinator, Dave Toub, his rankings were:

2014: 3rd
2015: 9th
2016: 1st
2017: 4th

That actually seems to support what Tab stated. Once the veteran purge began under Sashi in 2016, Tabor did much worse. Before 2016, he did a respectable job.

People are finding fault with a coach who is 1-31...no matter what he did/does we didn't win a game in 2017. This isn't some witch hunt. His record coupled with his behavior just miiiiiiiiiight rub people the wrong way.

We got a delay of game penalty in weeks 15 & 16 while trying to punt the ball. If that isn't coaching, I don't know what is. Missed tackles? That's on the player(s).

The way I had taken this is he would like to hear Hue talk about the "D" to see if Hue knows what's going on with the ENTIRE team as a HC should, by always deferring he seems to not know what's going on on the "D".

See, that part of it I fully understand. What I take issue with is all of the crap people make up about who made the QB decisions since Him and Sashi got here. Who had control of the roster, how actually executing plays rather than the plays called weren't as important.

I understand the frustration. What I don't understand is the need to make up crap or insinuate crap they have no way to verify. I'm not happy with our record. I'm not really that happy with Hue.

But here are facts everyone knows. Both Sashi and Hue reported directly to Haslam. As such each had to answer to Haslam and share their vision, direction and decisions with Haslam.

Sashi was fired and Hue is still here. Yet people choose to ignore that and make up whatever story that suits them to make it seem like there isn't some real reasons why it worked out that way.

And that could be possible. Hue has certainly put to much on his own plate by taking on far too much on the O side of the ball. I still think it's a little silly to say he needs to delegate in one breath then say he delegated too much with the next breath.

I read to to the the extent of ignoring the "D" altogether.

I understand your frustration yet at the same time I don't see it exactly like you do...aka...it doesn't tick me off one way or another...pro/anti Hue or Sashi.

You've made an excellent point that many aren't acknowledging and a point that I made before Sashi got fired. For better or worse...Jimmy knows which prospects were liked/not-liked and by who. He's probably the only guy who knows that. Now...is that a good thing or a bad thing when debating why Sashi got fired and Hue is still here? I don't know if it's a good or bad thing...but it's a thing for sure.

I also said that all we know is that Sashi was the tie-breaker. Maybe he was just that...maybe he was much more...we don't know. However, one thing for sure is that he should not have ever been that guy. Example: Football-guy-Hue likes a player...football-guy-in-the-FO does not like said player. Sashi has to break the tie. No matter the choice he made, he was going against the evaluation of a football-guy. That's the definition of a no-win situation and that situation no longer exists...and that's a good thing IMO.

Speculation runs rampant on the Board and with the fans because all the CYA policy's by Major League Sport Teams .. It's like politics and the Back Room , lol .. Usually takes years before we find out who did what to whom ..

With this Train wreck of ours ; it all start at the very Top ! I have always had a problem with Hue Cooping out on the roster because he took the job KNOWING he didn't have the final on the 53 ..

And see, I don't disagree with a lot of your post. Actually I agree with much of it.

The part we may disagree on somewhat is when you said that you believe that, " it seems that Hue talks to impress others about how smart he is. "

I don't actually believe that at all. I just believe he is the HC, and as such it's a part of his job to address the press and answer questions. I mean let's face it, if Belichic didn't have all of those rings, he'd get lambasted on a daily basis for not addressing the press.

The problem in that regard IMO is that Hue isn't a good public speaker. And look what happened the first time Dorsey didn't speak in a manner the fans thought was proper. There was an entire thread about it. lmao Hue doesn't always think things through before he speaks. As such, he says things that don't come across well. That's why I've sarcastically said that we need to make sure that all of our HC's and GM's in the future have to have two years of public speaking or must be former White House Press Secretaries to be considered as candidates.

Other than that I believe we are in complete agreement.

He isn't a good speaker, leader, or team member.

JMO

Hue does talk too much. He needs to understand the difference between when he was first hired and now. At first, everything he said was treated w/reverence by the fan base and media. Now, those same people try to ridicule each and everything he says.

Say less, Hue. And kick their nasty selves w/results.

I am all for it. It wouldn't be nasty if he had shown some results to this point. He has won 1 of 32 games, and that took a fluke blocked kick to get it done.

We start winning, you will see the tone change.

For his sake....all of our sake, I hope he wins the opening game. That will take a great deal of pressure off the situation because if losses mount, we are with a interim coach by week 5 or 6 at the latest.

That is why I want a real OC hired in case Hue finally coaches himself out of a job. We need somebody to run the O.

https://twitter.com/bruceallen/status/949069690068000774

Source: ESPN readying new hit piece on Bill Belichick, Tom Brady and Robert Kraft set to publish tomorrow morning at 8am. The topic will be a power struggle among the trio as to who deserves the most credit for the dynasty.

The article claims that the rift is so severe many Patriots feel this is the last year together for the trio. Also that Brady went to Kraft to force Belichick to trade Jimmy G. ESPN is planning a full day of promotion tomorrow for the article and its author @SethWickersham

....vs who deserves the most credit for being 1-31.

One persons facts are another persons excuses.

I said nothing about me knowing where that line is.
I said nothing about Hue, at all.

You wrote that you thought Pluto was being disingenuous.
I offered a different perspective for you to consider.

I'll refrain from telling you what your post is a prime example of.