DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Baltimore Residents Blame Record-High Murder Rate On Lower Police Presence

Look at the actual stats I posted earlier in the thread. For example:



How do you explain this with the "everything is about poverty" mindset? The income is matched; homicide rates are wildly different. There's obviously more going on here, and you can't even turn to the "bias in policing and court system" explanation, because the stats are for murder. The reporting rate for homicides in the United States is close to 100%.

I will continue posting here if I want to. I am not breaking any board rules, nor am I posting anything that is illegal or unethical. If are offended by what the data on race and crime says, that is too bad.

Don’t bother bro. Dude doesn’t even know what his own point is.

He’s *trying* to knock down everyone’s ideas on what’s going on, even though he has zero experience himself with any of it, yet he doesn’t have his own ideas on what the actual problem is, combined with the fact that he also has no ideas on how to fix it.

Basically he’s useless.

It could just be that conservatives were right about culture all along. I'm open to other ideas. I feel like most people who have responded are not open to any ideas other than 'poverty and bias in policing'.

I do appreciate your posts as you were the one who made the most thoughtful responses, as opposed to the typical mudslinging when this stuff gets brought up. (edit: well, until this one.)

Other people made meaningful post as well. So I dunno why you’re singling(is that even a word? Dead ass I don’t know) me out.

But this thread is further proof that people claim we’re all Americans......right up until we have problems like this, then we need to be like “oh no, that ain’t me, look at the black people!”

I mean damn, I thought we were all Americans. Guess not.

You have your mind made up based on some Google research that you have done , so you dont want to hear isht from the people who have actually lived in these neighborhoods.

All I can say is take a look at some European countries where it is mostly one race(white) and take a look at where their crime rates are the worst. It's going to be in the poor areas.

yep, which pretty much applies to...oh, i dunno....any country on the damn planet.

where's there is the most poverty, there is the most crimes being committed.

i know that's breaking news for Haus, but most people already knew that.

Hes also cherry picking the specific crime stats that fit his agenda, when in reality, while it is obviously the most severe crime, homicide is a small percentage of crimes committed .

I haven't lived in these neighborhoods but I sure have worked in them. I don't mean "I have to drive through them on the way to work, hopefully my car doesn't break down, haha", I mean actually worked in them at street level. So to say that this is internet research alone is not really fair. I've written about my experiences elsewhere on DT.

It's the most severe and also the most reliable to base data off of. Cops have a lot of leeway in deciding who to let off when it comes to speeding motorists; it is conceivable that bias factors in... homicide, not so much.

So you worked in some low-income areas and the crime rates were high, so in your infinte wisdom you deduced that it must be because the faces you saw were black, that must be the reason the crime rates were high. Got it .

so now your cherry picking speeding because it fits your agenda at the other extreme (low end crime )

Despite what you seem to think, there really is no agenda here other than to have a good discussion where maybe somebody will learn a thing or two. Substitute marijuana possession for speeding and the point more or less stands.

Homicide rate itself is very important, it is also a reasonable proxy for the most severe crimes (if you can do murder, you can do pretty much anything else), and the nature and permanentness of the crime makes it very hard for bias to make its way into the stats. So when Swish says blacks are more likely than whites to be arrested for smoking pot than whites, he might actually have a point. No amount of "white privilege" is getting somebody off of murder.

I get your point on what you are saying on murder, but youre swinging to the other low end extreme on examples of crime . We are bypassing the robberies, assaults, domestic violence, and thefts.

No, that's not it. I already wrote about this earlier in the thread, and elsewhere on here. I worked in a lot of lower class neighborhoods. Some were mainly black, some were mainly white, and others were mainly hispanic. Some were more integrated but they were in the minority. This is kind of getting off-track though as it was daytime activity with mainly older and more responsible people.

Your crossing a line bro ... they don’t like the TRUTH ... it has no place in their world ...

These folks are the reason why no one will track or report the crime rates for various groups ... look at how u get treated for having the nerve to TELL THE TRUTH!!!!

They act like u made this stuff up to disparage them ... its the typical Saul Alinsky playbook move ... DEFLECT, ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK then DEFLECT some more ...

There’s an old saying ... rings true multiple times a day ....

What is popular isn’t always right and what is right isn’t always popular ....

Telling the truth about minorities today is well beyond not being politically correct, today its akin to HATE SPEECH!!!

Are these homicides committed, or homicides suffered?

If it's the latter, the explanation is quite simple and obvious- we're a violent and racist nation that doesn't value the lives of blacks, regardless of income.

All I can do is put the information out here. We have the typical responses but you just never know who is reading and may have learned a thing or two. My thing is I like to get to the truth, and to use that to make a better world for all of this.

Some of the liberals on here have a lesser opinion of me now than they did before. This does not matter to me, but why do they react the way that they do? I want to put the information out there, so we can actually address things, and save some lives along the way. This is not how some people see it though.

Maybe what I need is a philosophy thread and a not a crime thread.

Black homicide victims are almost always killed by other blacks. So it turns out there is not as much difference as you would think.

Are you saying that blacks kill other blacks due to racism? What sense does that make?

Before I respond further, let me make sure I have it correct, but what exactly is the point of truth you are trying to educate people about ?

Also I wouldnt pound your chest too much because of support from DIam, considering he is a admitted bigot against anyone who is not white

Most blacks are killed by blacks and most whites are killed by whites because we're a largely segregated country (the result of racism). It's been more than proven throughout our history that money has less of a bearing than race when it comes to ability to lives in areas not affected by the negative effects of poverty and a lack of education.

A good example of this is how Trump used to order his employees to mark housing applications with a "C" for colored. Their education or socioeconomic status wasn't taken into consideration- they were black, and therefore not welcome. This sort of thinking is quite pervasive in our culture, and often why you see blacks with higher education and income still forced to live in areas where poverty and a lack of education contribute to higher rates of violence.

Throughout this thread you've continually denied that you think blacks are inherently more prone to violence, but then turn around and make that exact argument more subtlety

Think about the thread we are posting in. Several hundred people killed, in one city, in one year. You try to have a discussion about this and the first thing is that people point out there is a correlation between poverty and crime. In this case, poverty and homicide rate (I know I have conflated the two a bit carelessly in this thread and will stick to homicide rate for the time being.)

There *is* a correlation between poverty and homicide rate. This is true! But there is also a much stronger correlation between homicide rate and other factors, discussed earlier in the thread. Why would you not want the info that takes into account all factors? You can ignore that which makes you uncomfortable and attack those who bring it up, but then the data is less accurate and we'll be more likely to remain in the status quo.

Quite frankly I think we as a society need to stop making so many excuses for violent crime. Murder cannot ever be acceptable, in any situation, period. Maybe we need to take steps in the direction of proactive policing, have community leaders emphasize the need for personal responsibility and morality instead of excuse-making, there are a lot of things that can be tried.

It seems like we're stuck in the stage of devoting all of our resources and mental energy into fighting poverty but nothing ever really seems to change. Poverty is still there at about the same rate. People are still gunning each other down in the streets every day in every major city in the country. We'll dump a bunch of money into some poorly performing schools or fix up some bad neighborhoods, pat ourselves on the back, at least we did something even if nothing really changes afterward. Rinse and repeat.

"There *is* a correlation between poverty and homicide rate."

Which is what has been said, so we are in agreement there

So I am still missing your point

I just wish you would come out and say flat out what it is you are trying to say, instead of tip toeing around it. At least Diam admitted it when he said " the truth about minorities "

Considering that you unabashedly support a racist who once tweeted out a chart of falsehoods made by a white supremacist, you don't really have much room to talk about truth regarding minorities.

Funny how some people focus on crime in the big cities but never talk about crime in the poorest areas of Appalachia where drug addiction runs high and crime is rampant. But maybe that would hit too close to home for some people...

Go back a page or two. It's all there.

Here's one the most comprehensive analyses I've ever seen on the topic: https://randomcriticalanalysis.wordpress...d-by-economics/

It shows the correlation between homicide rate and poverty, income, racial segregation, demographics, education rates, and every other conceivable explanation.

That is true , but hell I am even talking about big cities too, using Cleveland as an example, since I grew up there .

Feel free to add some data. What is the violent crime rate per 100,000? What is the homicide rate per 100,000?

i've already countered and ended your argument, yet you keep posting this.

i dunno why, but im willing to bet you're still gonna post that trump lowered the black unemployment numbers even though i proved you wrong on that too.

you keep talking about trying to give perspective, while being unwilling to change your opinion based on the actual facts i have presented to you.

I like how he avoids the question when asked to just come right out and say what he wants to say. have zero respect for a bigot who pussyfoots around, at least Diam is a bigot and admits it

multiple people have already pointed that out, and he refuses to answer it.

Haus, what's your overall point? you keep trying to say it goes much deeper than poverty and inequality and such, so what is it then? whats you're reasoning for why this happens, since you refuse to accept our reasoning behind it?

and what's your solution?

if all you're doing is knocking down the opinions, but not actually giving your own opinion as to why.....then what are you really trying to accomplish?

You are so full of crap it's hilarious.

I already made my points earlier in the thread and provided a tremendous amount of data to back it up. That you have neither the motivation nor ability to wade through all of the stats is not my problem. I'm not going to repeat all of it here. This is how you get to 10 pages of bickering and both sides repeating things over and over again.

This originally got kicked off when PDF made a comment about how Trump sometimes use 'Chicago' as a codeword for black. I pointed out this is not really true, that it can also be used as an example of the failure of the Democratic party (or gun laws) to affect positive change on a city.

I also noted that black majority areas usually (always?) have high homicide rates and that this is actually a significantly stronger predictor of homicide rates than the poverty rate, or socioeconomic status of an area. This is what all of the data says. It's just that the racial crime data is so taboo that the race part is often ignored in the analysis and the argument usually centers on poverty (even though the correlation isn't as strong.)

Put another way, there are plenty of poor white, asian, and hispanic majority neighborhoods that have low homicide rates. In fact, they are often lower than the homicide rates of affluent black neighborhoods. And then the poor black neighborhoods-- look out.

I'm not sure how much more clear I can make this. I'm making the assumptions here that people know what 'correlated with' mean and all that implies (correlation does not imply causation, etc.)

You have provided a lot of date, true But I have asked you several times to clarify what you are trying to say. Chalk it off as me just being stupid, I guess. Simplify it for me.

Because you aren’t being clear.

Right now you are indirectly saying that blacks are inherently violent.

At this point I’d have more respect for you if you just came out and said it. You’ve been posting this sort of conclusion for quite some time now.

PDF already asked this, I said it before and I'll say it again: the large majority blacks are not violent, they are not prone to violence, and are basically just good and honest people.

There is a small minority that can make things difficult for the rest of us.

You do realize that isn’t the evidence you’re trying to imply, right?

You’re saying this, but then posting another.

So if most AA’s aren’t prone to violence, then what is your conclusion as to the numbers you are posting?

I’m not understanding why that’s so hard to answer.

I really wish I knew and had a rock-solid explanation to pair with it. If I ever get to that point, you will be one of the first to know. Deal?

Until then, isn't that the point of this whole thing? To have a conversation, and learn and exchange ideas with others?

Yes, but you inability to be straight up from the jump is highly frustrating.

I had to do a little more digging and found this extensive write up about Appalachia: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/367903/white-ghetto-kevin-d-williamson


Another interesting data point. National Review is a conservative source though. Somebody can find something a bit more neutral if they care to, though the tone of the overall article does not really suggest bias.

Considering that Trump A) has been a Democrat most of his life B) been for gun control most of his life and C) is a well-established racist, it's pretty obvious what he means when he goes to rallies in Alabama and says "what's going on in Chicago?"

You have a tendency to attribute thoughtfulness to him when there is none. He has he mind of a small child and has difficulty understand basic concepts. This has been proven time and time again, but you force yourself to see things through the lens of a distorted view where he's somehow thoughtful of competent. Last night you were shown multiple direct quotes where he shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that he thinks health insurance works like life insurance, and you tried to make it sound like perhaps it was some wonkish and detailed nuance that was taken out of context.

The guy doesn't think - he reacts. Especially at his rallies, and he knows that the major factor of his support comes from racists and racism. It's quite obvious what he means when he says "Chicago".