DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2018 NFL Season 2018 NFL Draft The QB everyone is missing out on ...

Yes - Good old CBS Sports (Chris Trapasso - a former Buffalo Bill beat writer, I believe). He also has Lamar Jackson as his 2nd rated QB.

Crazy stuff.

Heard he wasn’t gonna be at the senior bowl, injured. That sucks was looking forward to all the QBs there competing on equal levels.

He's a former BILL beat writer?? LOL Guess who his best QB in the draft falls to in his mock draft dated 3 days ago?

right - Rudolph - the one he claims is the #1 QB.

Don't be too surprised if Mason ends up being our QB. He is by far the best QB in this draft for Hue's system. A great GM will not just find good players but good players that fit their system.

Lots of very good QBs in this draft. It's very hard to say which on is the best of them. I just hope we get one and they fit and has enough success to let Hue keep his job so we don't blow things up again.

If we are looking for the best for "Hue's system" we might want Mayfield. He can take a hit, he can scramble, and he's used to waiting for WR to get open.

Hue doesn't really like QBs who can scramble.

Then why do so many say he was the one responsible for bringing in RGIII?

RG3 was brought in because he has a big arm. He like a big armed QB that is at least 6'2" that has good pocket awareness and mobility. AKA tied to the pocket and buying time to pass the ball. He might not like Rosen because rosen is a bit of a statue in the pocket.

I think his choice will be Darnold or Mason. Mason is the safer pick but Darnold might be a more dynamic QB in the future. If we end up with Darnold, Rosen, or Mason I will be a happy man.

With Mayfield I will be cautiously optimistic till he shows he is mature enough to be a pro. Allen I am taking a break till I see some wins.

RGIII had terrible pocket awareness.

Look, I'll try to be real clear here: All this talk about what kind of QB Hue likes is just that.......talk.

I think he wants a qb who can be accurate, make plays, and win games. He really doesn't care too freaking much about his height, running ability, arm strength, etc. Hue is just like every other coach...........He wants a qb who can produce results!

He had an interview where he described his ideal QB. He said it so why shouldn't believe him.

I am sure he will take any decent QB that lets him win. I mean sure who wouldn't. There is still what works best for him personally as a coach though. I don't think he adapts players to his system well so IMHO it's best to get him one that fits what he really wants.

Of course. I don't want to argue w/you. I voiced my opinion and I will leave it at that.

Don't get me wrong vers I like Rosen too. Let me be clear on that. The point of this thread though was to bring to light a QB that the media is asleep on much like they were with JG.

I got no big beefs about Rosen except maybe durability concerns and his deep ball accuracy sometimes and it's fair to say I am being nitpicky a bit. Everything else leads me to believe he will be a star in the NFL. You put him behind a good o-line and he might shine even brighter. I could certainly build a winning offense around him. I just worry Hue is not willing to change to a pure WCO.

When I watch Mason to me he is a Big Ben clone with WAY better personality. I think he would be perfect for Hue to work with.

Razor, I wasn't even talking about Rosen. I was just talking about I don't believe Hue only wants a certain type of qb.

CHS said he doesn't like a qb who can scramble, but RGIII could. Hell, Dalton can. Hogan can. Kessler can't. Palmer could not. I don't think it matters.

I am just saying that he, like every other coach, wants a qb who can win him freaking games.

There are two main things:

Accuracy and reading coverages post snap. There are other things, of course, but nothing trumps those two.

I think those 2 things are vital too but I have to add that presnap reads, reaction time, and field vision are just as important.

Presnap reads will greatly influence post snap reads and post snap reaction time. Field vision allows them to gain more information to make those reads and find the open man more quickly. Reaction time means once they see it they can actually make a fast decision.

Sam Darnold has very fast reaction time which is why people like him.
Rosen reads the field so meticulously.
Mason is really good at pre and post snap reads.

All three of them are good at getting rid of the ball fast.

I think Lamar processes information extremely fast though. To me he is going to be special if he can stay healthy. Him and Rosen just seem so delicate to me. Mason and Sam seem more like they can take a NFL pounding better.

I think all 4 of them will become NFL starters.

I think those things are very important, but not as quite as important especially since the two I mentioned are much harder to teach.

I don't know. Accuracy I will agree is a little hard to teach. I think it takes some natural ability for it. Reading defense just takes some work and a decent brain. It's why I look for intelligence in a QB.

I disagree. I think you can be taught to read defenses pre-snap and we saw Kize improve on that throughout the course of the year.

However, reading coverages post-snap is more innate. Going through progressions quickly is a gift and isn't "taught."

Everything can be taught.

I strongly disagree. If it's not teachable then not a single QB would improve from college to the NFL but the more intelligent QBs always do. It's definately teachable. Not all QBs are intelligent enough to process information faster though.

One thing about Rudolph is that I heard he had played a good portion of the end of the year with an injury. I think his throwing shoulder but not sure.

1, tough guy, dedicated
2, look how well he did with an injured shoulder
3, what was the injury exactly and how will it affect him going forward?

I only know it was a shoulder injury and that he was able to play through it. It did affect his accuracy and how he was throwing the ball. It's the one thing keeping me from flat out saying he is my favorite QB this draft. If he clears medical then he is my favorite QB of this draft for what Hue play calls for.

I think the top 4 QBs of this draft are all about equal and will do well depending on who they end up with. I view mayfield as the wildcard with a lot of talent but with maturity issues and of course the height issue. You could very well see all 5 of these guys become legitimate stars in the NFL. They are all very good QBs.

My rank of which QBs would best fit the Browns
#1 Mason
#2 Darnold
#3 Rosen
#4 Lamar
#5 Mayfield

If I were to rank by pure talent and potential
#1 Lamar
#2 Mayfield
#3 Mason
#4 Rosen
#5 Darnold

If I were to rank by best chance to succeed in the NFL
#1 Rosen
#2 Mason
#3 Darnold
#4 Lamar
#5 Mayfield

It's all a matter of what you are looking at and what you want to see from a QB. It's not always the most talented QB that becomes the best NFL QB. I say that because there is not a ton of difference from the #1 guy to the #5 guy on this list. These guys are all very talented.

Mental processing is the #1 thing that determines success in the NFL. That means seeing the field, recognizes what the defense is doing presnap, then identifying what they change up in 1-2 seconds post snap, then they have to react in a split second to get that ball out and on its way with a delivery that is less than .5 seconds. So they have to do all of that in just 2.5 seconds. That is extreme mental pressure.

Arm skill and Talent are obviously #2. I mean he has to have the accuracy and arm strength to get the ball where his brain tells him to put it in that 2.5 seconds. To me by now you either have it or you don't.

It's very hard to take what they do in college and see it work in the NFL. The easiest tell is how long they hold the ball and how they deliver it. This is why Rosen and Mason are my favorites because they do it the best.

I wasn't trying to argue. I was providing information. There are reasons why you see guys like Brady, Rodgers, Jimmy G go through their progressions so rapidly and why some guys are always at the bottom of the league when it comes to holding the ball.

Does anyone remember me talking about this when we had Weeden? Do you remember all the criticism the OL got? Do you remember how how the sacks went way down when Hoyer replaced him?

Do you remember the same thing occurring when we had Fyre and DA? Do you remember Joe T talking about how the OL loved DA because he got rid of it on time?

Do you remember how many fewer sacks Holcomb took than Couch?

There are things you can do to help, but when teams line up in one look and then change to another--for example, they line up in what looks like Cover 2, but switch it to Cover 6, those pre-snap reads are suddenly worthless after the snap.

It's all about processing speed. Some guys have a much better ability to process what they see post-snap than others.

I won’t argue wether you can teach or not teach reading progressions pre or post snap, cause IDK. But there have been QBs who have gotten better at it the longer they’ve played, a great example of this is Alex Smith, he was known for not being able to make those reads, that and he was horrible at throwing with anticipation(I think those two things kinda go hand in hand), but look what he’s been doing since his first few years, I’d say he’s gotten better st it, was he taught it? Or did he just figure out things as he went? Again i can’t really answer that.

I'd say it was most likely both like it is for most things.

Probably, it’s nust something to think about.

I am not trying to be rude, but it's impossible to go through progressions pre-snap. You can read coverages and defenses. You can ID the blitz. You can ID tendencies. You can look at the safeties, especially the SS and where the corners are lined up to ID coverages. You can ID down and distance and what that teams' tendencies are in those situations. That can be taught. It can be learned in studying the video.

However, let's say that a team shows you a Cover 1 look and then at the last second drops a S and switches to a Cover 3......that pre-snap read is meaningless.

Oh...and progressions are when you make your first read and the dude is covered, so you go to read 2, and then maybe even read 3. That happens after the snap.

The problem occurs when you can't read the coverage because they switched it and it is happening really, really fast. Think about it..........if you hold it for 2.5 seconds, you are holding it too long. Most routes call for the qb to release it between 1.8 and 2.1 seconds. Obviously, scrambling around skews those numbers, but that is how the play is designed. There are even quicker routes. 1.5 seconds. Do you know how fast that read has to be? LOL......it's amazing!

I PROMISE that I am not trying to be argumentative. I really am trying to educate you guys. And shoot.......you can lay this stuff on your friends when you are at the bar or wherever.

I'd love to start a thread about it. It's really fascinating. GM started one in the PFF not that long ago, but almost all ignored it.

Let me know if you guys want a real thread about it.

Vers - when you say GM's thread got ignored, are you talking about replies. That is the natural way we look at a thread. But really, there are only a handful of posters who can really contribute to a thread like that, so you need to look at number of views.

Another thing, and this is my personal preference. Those kind of threads pop up occasionally. They tend to be these great but really long and in-depth posts. I have issues with that for a couple reasons. The really long posts are hard for me to read because of the coloring of the website. I love the orange and brown motif but it strains my eyes. When a long article is posted I always click the link because it is easier for me to read - Yes I realize that I am in the middle if a marathon post

The other thing is that these long in-depth posts become a little daunting. If edromeo would let me use him as an example. He does these wonderful film breakdowns. But I find myself having trouble finishing them because they are so long. I am in the middle of one and find myself going over the same ones multiple times because I lose my place. Then you have gone through 10 plays and see 30 more. It gets overwhelming
(ed, if you could divide those breakdowns into smaller posts, maybe do them by quarter, you might get more participation. I know you are disappointed by how much feedback you get)

I don't want to speak for the rest of the board but these are my feelings/suggestions/thoughts.

Thanks for being polite, but I know all you just wrote there, didn’t take it as being arguement I’ve, just mis-wrote was I was trying to say. Thanks for the info.

My point I was trying to make is that QBs can get better at doing all those things with the more time they have on the field. I felt Alex Smith got better from his first few years then where he is now.

Oh and I don’t drink or go to the bar, can’t stand the taste, never could, and am a bit of a introvert, just like being home with my daughter. I do leave the house to go fishing though. Way to much about me, now what were we talking about? Oh yea, progressions, not what I meant, reads. Pre snap reads. I do most of my replies on phone and can’t always see what I’m writing, I apologize for that.

So, after reading the replies--and the lack of them--I'm guessing that people are not discussing post-snap reads?

Great!

Let's go talk about Hue!

I agree that the breakdowns can be long. Its just hard to distill a game breakdown into something smaller and still keep the context and big picture. I'm still working it though, I want to streamline and make it more concise.

I thought the format for this year was better then last years.
The/my aim is to breakdown the plays by trait w/ time stamp. That way someone could reference the traits they want to see and just go to that/those time stamped plays. As opposed to having to watch the entire game or read an entire game play-by-play breakdown.

If you haven't seen the new format they're up: https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.php/topics/1368916/2
Rosen vs USC

https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.php/topics/1391218/film-breakdown-baker-mayfield#Post1391218
Mayfield vs OU

Would be interested in your take on the content and format.

We have talked about it plenty but you don't like what has been said so you ignore it or dismiss it.

To be VERY clear it is NOT an innate ability. Post Snap Reads are affected by the following:

1. Presnap reads. As Eotab pointed out knowing what defense they are in BEFORE snap gives you clues and hot reads to know what defense they will stay in or transition 2. This can improve with teaching.

2. Field Vision. If you don't see the field then your obviously not reading it. It's a major reason NFL teams find short QBs to be so risky. This can improve a little to a lot by training but they seldom do because of the idiots who think its something your born with and can't improve. Anyone who hunts in the woods knows you can broaden your field vision quite a bit.

3. Reaction Time. This is a key element of post snap reads and gives some credence to your innate ability model of thinking. This controls how long it takes you to process all the above information. Something you can't improve this and they are very wrong. If you improve knowledge of the defenses, improve how you see the field, and gain experience processing them quicker then your instinctual reaction time will also improve. How much it improves will vary according to how much you improve the first 2.

4. Decision Making. You can do all 3 of the above great but it means nothing if you don't have the ability to make fast choices. Confidence can have a key role with this because they have to have the ability to trust themselves with the decisions they make. That swagger they look for in a QB is prized because they know if they improve the first three then with great confidence they will be able to make decisions faster.

Great technique won't make up for a lack of confidence or slow decision making because you can't see the field well or process the information you do see quickly.

The main reason Darnold is so highly touted is that he has great field vision, processes information really fast, and is quick in making a decision.

Either way, I think I have talked enough about =) Take it or leave it. It's your choice.

You can't, unless the guy has played in a pro-style offense.

It's the main reason I have been reluctant to spend the first or second overall pick on several qbs over the past several years.

Let me clarify that. I've never said they couldn't make those post-snap reads. I've only said that we have no idea if they can or not because they were never asked to read coverages in college. They typically play in a one-read offense. I just think that it's risky to spend a top 5 pick on that kind of a guy.

And again, I rank accuracy and being able to quickly make post-snap reads as the two most important attributes when evaluating QBs.

As you probably remember, there have been 3 qbs I have really pimped in recent years. Luck, Teddy, and Rosen. I have done so because I saw them successfully make those reads in college.

I'll never say that a guy from a Spread offense can't make those reads, I just get hesitant because I also can't say that he can make those reads.

Watching them play and how they execute within their offense. Often times there are only a handful of really meaningful plays when it comes to this type of assessment; usually 3rd downs.

But, you're still only evaluating how the function in their offense and not a projection of whether or not they'll be able to do it in the NFL. Even if they can do it in college playing in a 'pro-style'. There are pro-style QBs that fail too.

But for me I look at the QBs helmet movement and their feet as they move through their progressions. Are they getting to their 2nd and 3rd progressions? Are they calm or frantic as they do it?

Rudolph's hands are smaller than Trumps.

I've watched him several times, he has talent....however, he plays in Big 12 AND most teams in that league play little Defense. Look at how Darnold played against Ohio State...I don't see a Luck or Wentz in this class of QBs....I don't want another Kizer...throws great, then pass hits 15 feet short for NO reason.
With all the talent evaluators in FO now, hope to God, they do their magic and get us a QB....BUT, I hope they don't force it. GO Browns!!!!