DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum A Problem That Needs Addressed

Alright.............since 2 people liked it...........please provide the link where I called other posters "morons." I called Bill Livingston a moron. Not other posters. Please stop spreading lies.

I have no link, Dep. It's my opinion and I think I expressed that.

But you have all their names and such a focused point of what they told Jimmy, surely that comes from somewhere. Doesn't it?

Well.............after all of that..............I wonder if anyone else thinks that the fans and media demanding that people be fired in Cleveland is a problem or not?

Like I said earlier.......several players and coaches have mentioned about how bad it is in Cleveland. I also remember listening to commentators say that the Browns need to stop listening to "outside voices" about firing people and stick w/a plan.

I get that there is a segment of the board who wants to turn my words around and make it about "me," but for the "real" folks..............do you guys think there is something to this? Do any of you believe that Haslam should ignore those outside voices and stick w/the plan? Don't be afraid. I'll protect you.

" to say, We run coaches out of here every couple of years, we have run FO guys out of here almost as much."

Well how many of the players on the Browns get a fair chance,
It seems to me they've been run out of here at about an 18 month average, no matter what positon they play.

I too have heard others talk about the dysfunction in Cleveland. I have heard none of the people that you have mentioned plea for Haslam to retain Hue though. I wouldn't expect them to either.

I get that you are trying to start another fight, but I will take the high road. I just know those guys were flown in. Why? To determine the font we use on our letter head? To discuss a new logo? LOL............come on, man.

It's speculation, but I don't think it is all that much of a stretch to think that Haslam brought those guys in to discuss who to stick with after the disconnect between the two was reached the unreal proportions of the two not speaking to one another.

You keep acting like I am delusional. Just like you did a couple of years ago when I suggested that Hue was going to receive blame for our losses.

Vers, I would really like to know...what exactly has Hue done that you think is so great?

I thought it was a perfectly valid question given that Singeltary was here for a job interview, Manning was here for his buddy's election, and I'm not even sure if Parcells was even here this year.

I don't believe I am trying to start anything. I haven't tried to drop names and bait others. I haven't disparaged any posters. Heck, I even tried to give you some helpful contact information.

Hue still has a job so he hasn't received blame yet. His defensive coaches got the blame last year. This year his players got the blame, Sashi got the blame, the offensive coaches got the blame, the special teams coach got the blame, and now the fans and media get the blame.

If your prediction comes true and Hue finally does get the blame I think it will happen only because he is the only one left.

Gotta love continuity.

Eve, I have never said he is "so great."

Not once.

In fact, I used to question the guys who said he was so "great" when we hired him. I even started a thread about how I questioned his ability to "evaluate" qbs. Some of the same guys ripping on him NOW are now ripping on me for defending him.

I don't think he's great, honey. Here is what I do think: I think he's okay. I like his offense and schemes. Not as much as I like Shanny's [btw...the same guys made fun of me for liking his route trees when he was here], but I think he does a nice job of incorporating The WCO offense w/the Air Corryell offense. I love his routes and formations. I see a combo of vertical and horizontal routes that are nice.

I think we need some talent. I know you love Kizer and I hate to bad-mouuth him because of your feelings, but the guy really struggled reading coverages and w/his accuracy. We also had a ton of young and inexperienced receievers who are not the smartest guys.

Eve, I don't think Hue is "great." I just think he deserves some more time w/more talented players. He has a very good repuation in NFL circles [gotta ignore the dudes on this board, Eve] and let's see what he can do w/some talent.

He might fail. I am NOT predicting success. But baby, there isn't a coach out there is available that I would want to replace him.

Okay, I apologize if I misinterpreted your intent. I will reiterate that I was just speculating as to the "why" when certain guys were brought in.

For example, I don't think either Peyton or Singletary were flown in for specific positions. And again, this is just my opinion, but I think they were brought in to analyze the situation. And the consensus of all involved was that Sashi had to go.

This is the main and only thing I can agree with.

I think Singletary was flown in for the Rooney rule and Peyton was here to help his buddy run for office, but you can think what you want, I'm not gonna stop ya.

Great, and I won't stop you, either.

That time in the offseason where we argue if the Browns suck because the fans. In all my years Every year I wonder if this topic is a sign of woman battered syndrome or Stockholm syndrome.

Fans and media scrutiny IS the main byproduct OF sports. Nothing will ever come along and change that. People argue and fight, everyone is right and everyone is wrong - all at the same time.

These things take on a life of their own at extremes. We SUCK... extremely. Don't really care what Shurmur actually said, it's become fashionable to blame the Browns for being Brown to excuse yourself of any responsibility in the matter. Ex-FO and ex-coaches alike have taken this approach. The bad part, as of late (the internet age), is this twisted idea that those who yell the loudest somehow represent the majority. If athletes, coaches OR fans buy into it - that's on them. If David Wells is shallow enough to think Clevelanders are mean because someone mentioned his mother - that's on him. If Sam Wyche insists Cincinnati has better citizens because 3 or 4 fans in Cleveland threw crap on the field - that's his stupidity. If anyone with half a brain believes either case to be true just because they said it is - it's a shame they're that dumb... but not my problem, or something that will bother me.

I've listen to people rag on Cleveland for one thing or another my whole life - doesn't bother me. If we have coaches or players running out of town because of media or fan scrutiny - good riddance. They wouldn't have the nuts to turn anything around anyway. The situation in Cleveland is because we SUCK. Although I consider myself a respectful person, it's not my job to "take it easy on these guys"... It's their job to "show me"... I pay for the product = they work for me, NOT vice versa.

It does get annoying to read the same arguments here everyday but whatever. It's the same 4 or five people insisting Hue should be tarred and feathered and the same handful always defending him. Truth is, the other few thousand probably fall somewhere in the middle. If Hue were to leave because of fans on Dawgtalkers or media reports by some lifelong Cleveland hack, my only wish is that he would have manned up and left sooner. Everybody needs to grow a little thicker skin, imo.

Well, it may just be me, but if the opinons of a bunch of anonymous posters on one of thousands of such boards are influencing major corporate decisions in Berea, this team is in much, much more dire straits then anyone thinks.

There isn't some secret cadre of people here who say Hue stinks. It's everyone on the planet. Go check out some comments on nfl.com under stories of the Browns. We are a running joke. A punchline. The.Worst.Team.In.The.NFL. Led by The. Worst. Coach. In. The. NFL.

And if anyone here seriously thinks that fans can make policy for the Browns, they are deluded.

I agree with your initial post. So far it's the only one I've read.

I think fans are the worst. I heard Steeler Nation booing their team towards the end of the Jags game. How dare they? What did they not stand up and cheer their team for giving them a great season and a shot at the Superbowl? Maybe that's just me. It's what I would have done.

I hazard a guess that from reading the many posts crying for Hue's firing, the majority of those fans are not relying on their own knowledge of football or even their own experience of changing coaches every two years. They cite reasons for his firing such as play calling and/or offensive scheme of which they, as individual fans, know nothing about either. They simply repeat the negativity of what others have said and it snowballs into insanity. Much like the Trump hate has done.

Fans always want a simple fix. Something that has caused the failure, and they don't want to think too much about it. If they take time to think they will find issues all over the place that contributed to the failure. But that's too much for them to deal with. They don't know how to approach fixing all that is wrong. So they go for the "easy fix", that is, they find one individual in whom they can place all the blame and talk themselves into being confident that by firing one individual all the problems will be solved. That's easy, fix one thing, problems solved. Circumstances also come into play. There are/were plenty of negative circumstances making a successful team a truly mountain climbing challenge. But overlooking all the various circumstances because it requires too much thinking and even more problem solving skills to iron them out, they take the easy way and blame everything on one guy. They come to the conclusion that to replace the one guy is to solve all the problems in one easy push.

I'm so glad Hue continues to coach. No new schemes to learn, no new coach to get used to and much less roster turnover than would be the result of a new HC put in place.

Hue did not become an idiot in two years. He has had a successful career thus far. The challenges he's faced with the Browns have been nearly insurmountable. I can't wait to see what happens with an accurate QB and a few more pieces added to the roster. Hell, an accurate QB would have won a handful of games right there and a few less individual mistakes would have won another handful. But blame it all on one guy seems to be the method most preferred.

One last thing which is really a repeat of something I said earlier, fans know jack-squat about offensive schemes and play calling or putting players in the best situation to succeed, but they like to talk like they do even to the point of calling for a man to be fired based upon their lack of knowledge in the man's area of expertise.

I am not trying to argue w/you, but the intent of my post was beyond that.

What I'm saying is that the Browns ownership/decision makers have been influenced by the fans and local media for far too long. There is a reason why former players/coaches talk about how bad it is in Cleveland.

The Browns have a history of listening to the vocal fans and sour local media and firing folks. That leads to regime changes and roster overhauls.

The playoffs are littered w/former coaches, front office personal, and players who were formerly employed by the Browns.

It is my opinion that the Browns need to stop listening to such folks and stay the course.

Right on, bro. I miss your posts so much.

It all started with Modell and the fan base has grown accustomed to that being the method of operation. Many of them know no other way, have no other answers when the going gets rough. It doesn't occur to them to hire a HC and his staff and let them work it out.

I agree. We are both old enough to remember Grossi and some other local media guys acting like they were smarter than our coaches and that started w/Bill Belchick. They slammed him unmercifully.

I had season tix and I remember seeing likenesses of BB dummies in the stands. I remember seeing a plane flying over the stadium w/a trailer that said "Jump Art." All because Bernie was benched.

I've seen a great coach like Marthy be chastised by the local media and fan base. I've seen the same scenario play out time after time. Those people became empowered because the ownership has repeatedly listened to them.

It's gotta stop!

I think what is best for the Browns is for a combination of Brown's fans to stop the cries for firing coaches and for ownership to stop listening to the ones who are clamoring for such changes.

Look at our board........we have a terrible record and it is understandable for fans to be upset, but man, we all knew what the plan was. We were told we were going to lose a ton of games these first two years. Yep, we went 1 and 31. So, what if we went 3 and 30 or 4 and 29? What is the big difference? We were going to lose in a very big way no matter what.

People ignore that.

I was the first guy on here to question Hue. I am not a Hue lover. However, I saw what the plan was. I correctly predicted what would happen. Now, the very same people who criticized me way back then are bashing me now for defending Hue.

Go figure.

Really don’t think Haslam is firing coaches and GMs cause the fans want it, that does sound kinda ridiculous. I think GMs and coaches have been fired because a Haslam is over his head in the NFL.

I went to the Pittsburgh Post Gazette stories of yesterday's game. The comments sections of the stories were all about firing Tomlin, Haley, and the DC. It was worse than on this board .. laughs. I could not help but wonder what they would be saying after an 8 - 8 season, or 6 - 10. I guess it is all in the context of what you are used to and expect.

J/c

Hue is a great coach, but a terrible head coach.

We're stuck with him.

Whatever.

Maybe he'll learn to delegate, instill discipline, manage the clock, etc, but I don't see the Bengal changing his stripes. I hope he does, but he seems a much better fit as a no.2 than the headman.

HC requires it's own particular skill set, and Hue hasn't shown it or much growth towards it.

People talk about liking his offense, play design, etc. That'd be great if he were only the OC. Hue needs to "grow up" and stop thinking like a coordinator.

Irony is how I brought this up once and you laughed and called me names.

Vers, I usually agree with most of your posts and I agree the Browns need stability in their coaching staffs but Dude, worst record ever. 1-31 and a Meder fingernail from 0-32. He also refuses to run the ball but throws it all over the field with a inaccurate.QB.

I think the Browns just did that by not firing Hue... You may be late with this

So... A "problem that needs addressed" thread was just a masking for "Hue needs to stay/everyone else is wrong" and baiting posters.

This could have just gone in the Hue thread.

I wont get into any discussions about posters on this board. That isn't helpful nor constructive.

I completely agree, however, that firing and hiring coach after coach after coach doesn't and has not helped us get out of the sticky mire that we have been stuck in for so many years.

I also agree that Browns fans are incredibly cynical and super quick to flippantly say "fire this guy, fire that guy, pull the plug, start over" etc.

None of this helps us move forward. It means new system, new routines, nothing is practiced long enough that it becomes completely seamless and there is no consistency.

The media haven't helped because all I read are endless articles about how terrible we are and making jokes about us. All the public see are our numbers. They don't watch any of games. I watch every game and I truly believe we are closer than most people think. Sure, call me a homer, but I do think that is the truth. We need to find that all elusive QB and few other pieces, but if we had solid to good QB play we would have won several games. If we had great QB play we could have won even more. JG is immediate proof of that in SF. I'm not saying it all falls on Kizer. That isn't fair. By cutting Josh we didn't set Kizer up to succeed. By cutting Brock we set him up to fail and that is inexcusable and thus, Sashi has paid the price.

Sadly, I also believe that Haslam and maybe previous owners have been too sensitive to the media backlash and are too quick to pull the plug. I applaud the Haslams for keeping Hue and for getting Dorsey. I hold some reservations as we have seen it all before...bring in big cheese FB guy (Holmgren or Banner) and we all think our problems will be solved and then they only seem to get worse or they show little to no progress. But, Dorsey has now assembled a supporting cast that look, at least on paper, REALLY REALLY good. With all of our picks and our cap space we have the ability to immediately turn this around. This is the most important offseason in the history of the team. We have to spend the money wisely and strategically in FA and we have to draft REALLY, REALLY well. Like, as well as the Saints did. We have to hit on almost every guy. THEN...if we do all of the above and Dorsey presents all of these assets to Hue then Jackson needs to produce the goods.

I will continue to defend keeping Hue until proven otherwise. I think Hue's hands and arms were twisted and tied with the mentality of tanking for a couple years, acquire assets, cash them in in 2018 and reap the rewards in 2019. Meanwhile, that mindset is totally unfair to Hue and the players. That said, nobody expected 1-31 and it is definitely a huge underachievement given what players we do have. But, it is what it is. If Hue is THE guy to lead us out of the mucky La Brea Tar Pits of the NFL then this is the year he has to prove it. I for one, REALLY hope that he does.

I will say again that .500 or above is the target they have to aim for. Nobody expects playoffs or a deep run into the playoffs, but immediate results need to be seen. If we expected, and arguably should have won 4-6 games last year (given the roster), then we have to better that this year.

Butch Quit.

Romeo just never could build a defense. He had a pretty long run. Should never have been hired fans didnt have anything to do with his firing.

Mangini wasnt gonna survive the Walrus and Heckert. Fans had nothing to do with it.

Haslam canned Shurmur. Had nothing to do with the fans, I thought Pat was a fantastic coach, not his fault Colt kept hitting receivers in the ass with the ball.

Most fans wanted Chud to stay but Lombardi promised he could bring in all these coaching legends. So Chud was canned.

Pet yea fans were pretty much tired of the weak ass defense and the handling of the QB situation, pet is probably the only coach here that the fans really got fired.

The QB situation from '14-16 was more than just Pettine's fault. It extended back to draft day when they took Manziel for the hype and showman persona instead of a guy who could play ball like Carr or JG (who Shanny liked).

I think Pettine really sealed his fate when he refused to move on from his buddy O'Neil (DC).

Sorry Vers, I have to disagree here. The constant is poor drafting, poor hiring, poor coaching, FA's that come here simply to collect a paycheck, GMs passing on talent to acquire draft picks, then using those draft picks for perpetually poor picks, trading or cutting talent because it doesn't fit with new systems implemented by new regimes, inept coaching by inexperienced coaches hired because they're hot at the time, just willing to take the job, or a buddy of the new "president", poor play on the field, poor execution, poor discipline, and finally, our continual and constant lack of a QB.

Putting this mess on the fans and the media is BS. Fan and media scrutiny is simply a by-product of the cesspool of ineptitude that continues to prevail. And if Hue doesn't get his ego in check, start coaching this team like a coach instead of a despot, and start winning immediately, he'll be out on his ass too. And that will be well deserved. In spite of what the fans, media or anyone on this board has to say about it. Hue is on a short leash. Deflecting the blame of his poor performance to fans and media isn't going to shorten that leash. It's perform or go home for Hue now. He has his opportunity, he'll get his QB and a bevy of talent, but he has to win or he's gone. Period, end of story.

JMHO

If nothing changes, nothing changes.... in Cleveland, the thing that never changes is that everything is always, constantly, changing.

We already blew up the plan and fired Sashi, may as well complete the process by scuttling Hue. He's almost guaranteed to be on borrowed time at this point. If not during/after 2018, then in 2019 the new guy will find a reason to bring in his own coach... may as well get on with it.

Don't know why I'm getting involved in this. Normally I like to stay out of it because I'm a POSITIVE person by nature.

But.

Fans ARE way too quick to get out the gauntlet. Sometimes justifiably so.

Me? I'm washing the last 2 years down the drain. Cause I understand what happened. Jackson was handed a depleted roster last year and then even more depleted of Vets this year. Specifically McCown. Huge mistake going with the 3 QBs we did.

Sometimes I really really think we TANKED this year for Rosen and Darnold.

To me, Jackson is on the clock as of right now. I don't care about 1-31, nor do I care if it was 6-25. It is what it is.

Quite frankly, I'm THANKFUL we're in the #1 Slot in the Draft because we will FINALLY have a shot at a REAL QB. Not a Mid 1st Round or Mid Round Developmental POS.

Now.

Media? I can't stand Grossi and his constant negativity. But there's more. As much as I love watching More Sports & Les Levine, I can't stand when he, Shaw or Schudel try to talk Browns. They're the most negative people I've ever seen, and NONE of them have a CLUE about the Browns.

Now when Dennis Maniloff is scheduled to be on? I RECORD. This Kat UNDERSTANDS the Browns and actually HAS A CLUE.

One thing I KNOW FOR SURE is that ALL of this BS with Fans, Local AND National Media will CEASE once we start WINNING. It's already starting with the recognition we're getting with the Hiring of Respected guys named Dorsey, Wolf and Highsmith.

We're turning the corner. Just hold on a bit longer.

The posters on this board have driven me away from posting on here. You cant have an opinion without getting ridiculed. I read from here all the time because we all here love the Browns. I will give it another shot after not posting in years.

Exactly. The concept of continuity came and went. It was destroyed by the HC coach politicking for job security. Is continuity suddenly supposed to begin now? Now that there's a new GM that everyone likes but has yet to prove a thing? What if his draft sucks? What if he doesn't want to give a losing coach more than a quarter of a season to put up or shut up? What if we sign Cousins or Smith, fore-go a top QB pick, trade down for picks more suited to a "football guy" and start this crap infested carousel all over again. What if Hue was wrong all along? What if he's a HC who can't win in the NFL?

We'll see how this off season goes. If it continues the build, adding the pieces we need (we all know what they are), drafting the top QB #1, signing a veteran QB to mentor then step aside, adding a veteran or two, adding depth to key positions then we'll know that Dorsey & Hue are in lock step.

If there is a large influx of veterans that Dorsey worked with before. If they sign a veteran QB and forego the #1 pick and trade down to acquire more picks. If there is a massive wave of cuts or trades of our 2nd & third year players, then we'll know that a plan is in place for Hue's removal and an eventual replacement.

We'll see. Frankly, I'm skeptical they get it right. Battered fan syndrome.

I hope you're right. We'll see, won't we? I think we'll get early indicators starting with free agency.