DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns hire Todd Haley as offensive coordinator

Vambo,
The answer to your question is this statment, "everyone thinks that going through a kitchen rebuild will be easy, until they are 3 weeks into the process and getting tired of not having their kitchen!"

Don't know how old you are or if you have gone through that, but that is an analogy you can use or ask someone who has.

Well you have to understand that these posters on a message board know far more than Dorsey and Joe Thomas. I mean, what were you thinking?

Can you define "baseball-type rebuilding strategy"? Is it just because DePodesta was hired from a major league baseball team? Is that all it takes?

Just because Joe Thomas references "baseball" doesn't mean it's a basball strategy. That's rather superficial.

Analytical driven? Sure. But just because one has an analytical strategy doesn't mean it's a baseball strategy.

That is why Hue gave up on the running game that seemed to be effective.

Dorsey and Joe Thomas think the rest of the Offensive coaches and ST coach was the problem for a lot of our losing. Just not the coach in charge!

I don't buy into that, and here are some of the reasons:

1) We actually have decent OL and DL
2) The team was very poorly coached the entire season
3) The play calling was extremely illogical
4) There have been many questionable starter decisions (Kizer, Peppers)
5) The Coaching never helped the struggling positions (QB,LT and FS), they actually enhanced the problems by designing an O that required the Qb to pass 2 in each 3 plays, and playing the FS deep, and all out blitzing in many times..

6) Hue Jackson signed with the Browns and Sashi with the bargaining power on his side, so to me its very hard to believe he had no input on the roster and specially on the QB's
7) Hue Jackson was signed to be the football part of the organization,and what failed the most was the football side
8) Hue Jackson had at his disposable more than 10 QB's, and plenty others that he could have signed for practice squads, etc. He couldn't find a decent QB, or better he could not find a QB to run his offense, and he couldn't change his offense to fit the Qb's he had.

9) Most important of all,Hue Jackson is a coach that will use any excuse to justify his lack of performance. If he though he had no powers or conditions he should have quit long time ago, or even not take this job in the first place.

All of the evidences points to the conclusions that Hue is a MEDIOCRE coach, independent of the quality of ownership and front office. He has no single quality to be an HC,quite the contrary.

Pit,
Your right, "what am I thinking" when the GM and Future Hall of Fame LT says these things!!..LMAO!!..HAHAHA.. Why would I listen to them!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Joe does come back until he hears otherwise his coach is still Hue Jackson is it not? You were expecting him to trash the coach while he's still the coach? Has Joe ever done that to any other of our many wondercoaches?

Dorsey may not say it publicly but he knows Hue's the problem. That is why he forced Hue to hire the OC and then picked his OC for him.

Menphis,
Baseball strategy as in rebuilding by unloading ALL your previous talent( especially if they cost) and then restocking via the draft( in baseball, your restocking via your farm teams) and very few FA. In baseball, your talent can grow due to the amount of games. In football, you only have 16 games, plus your draft hit rate is deemed GOOD at %50.

As far as Analytics, yes, in can work to a degree but good old film study is king! And working with/listening to your coaches( BTW, apparently, Sashi was not so good at that)

Vambo,
Yes, there were times when I thought Hue did not run the ball enough. BUT lets not act like our O-line was blowing people off the ball!!.. The left side of our line worked, the right side was IFFY!!!

And we all saw what a run blocking O-line looked like aka Jacksonville!!... I want a line like that!!!

This is hilarious.

We tried the other approach on other regimes, and failed miserably also.

What if Sashi was listening to the coaches, but the problem is that the coaches are mediocre?

There is nothing I have see that would lead me to the conclusion that we had good coaches in here...

The way I see analytics, is that they support decisions, they don't make decisions. You end up with a range of different alternatives, with different strong and weak points, and then you make an educated guess.

So, IMHO, the analytics guys provided the football guys with a range of options based on the football inputs, and then the football guys and the managers picked the ones that fitted both sides.

Freddie Kitchens is highly regarded. The Amos Jones hire seems to be a disaster waiting to happen, but hopefully he turns it around with us (the Cardinals special teams was among the worst in the league). Maybe with all this new found time on his hands former special teams coach Hue Jackson can dive into that area of the game.

You know something? That's exactly what I tried to tell you and others when Hue made statements in the past that supported many of the moves that Sashi made. And what happened? You said Hue was a liar and that he wasn't toeing the company line. You can't have it both ways.



Yet we saw on this very board how Hue was gong to "worm out of" hiring an OC. Now that an OC has been hired? He was forced into it.

some of you guys have attacks planned no matter what happens and it makes your agenda so obvious.

Rasta,
ITs ok for you to have an opinion, but that does not make it fact!!.. My opinion is not fact either BUT atleast I have the GM and LT making some of the same points!!

Your points:
#1 - Nope, left side of OL was good, right side IFFY!! DL ok at best.
#2-#3 -> already answered
#4 - yea, like the Browns had a lot of good backups!
#5 - look at #4 and Greg was playing 11 on 10 most of the game, but that was Greg's decision
#6 - already proven that Hue did not
#7 - look at a previous post I did..
#8 - Sashi/depodesta missing on QBs that were in range of the Browns, now you want blame Hue for getting bargain basement QBs.. that's funny


anyway, have a good rest of your day!

I made the worm comment. Here is the link:

https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.ph...ont#Post1390797

It was posed as a question for a reason. I have since said I regretted making the comment. Anything else?

It's a shame Hue's game plan wasn't that way!

PitDawg

Do you actually believe that Hue had no input on the roster or the players that were selected?

Why would Hue sign with the Browns and Sachi's project?

Do you actually think it was Sashi that hand picked the players? You realize that it goes against his methodology.

I actually believe Sashi was behind the moves and trades (its the GM job) and draft strategy, but I find it very hard to believe that he selected the players he wanted (that's the HC job).

Sashi always owned this part of the job, the trading on draft day and cutting players... Hue, on the other side, never owned to his responsibilities or the putrid displays we had to watch in 2 full seasons

I don't know why you regret it. Had Haley not became available, there's no proof that we would've hired an OC. Everyone Hue interviewed for the position left without an offer.

I regretted it because I should have waited. Even still, like I said, I posed it as a question for a reason. It was not made as a statement of fact.

Dog, go read the now locked "How much rope does Hue have" thread for more discussion on the JoeT article.

Basically we determined that Joe's surprise bonus was actually payola to become a product spokesman to give fans the impression that it was all Sashi's fault, but it wasn't a wasted 2 years, and that he feels good a out the future.

Joe LITERALLY said in one paragraph that The Plan was the problem, then turns around and says in another that he fully believes The Plan is going to work lol

Meh. I thought it was funny and spot on.

Maybe Josh Allen?

To be fair, writers on the MMQB frequently say dumb stuff.

Rasta,
Yes, the other regimes did fail but this last regime relied on analytics over what the football people were telling them. Also, no matter what you or I believe, we already have articles written where the coaches DID NOT KNOW about moves Sashi/Depodesta made. Its already been written!! Draft day, Hue calls Watson, we go in a different direction. Joe Haden, Cincy QB..etc. And BTW, I think JT talked about that in a previous article. Hey, or the killer quote "We don't think Wentz will be a franchise qb"..

Yes, Sashi made some other good moves but missed on some also.

This is one of the things I was alluding to in the article that was contrdictory.

In the Joe video I posted Joe says he had no clue what the plan was he was not privy to that information.

Also, the plan can both be dumb and work at the same time. Jettisoning our talent over two years so that we could get accumulate high end talent is very dumb in the short term, but will probably work over the long term. Now that we're approaching the long term part of the plan, it does make sense and the early results are looking promising.

It's painfully evident that the #TrustTheProcess Plan was really painful, especially since the Browns were talented enough not to even start it. I get that Ray Farmer really tied the FO's hands with their alienating ways and irresponsible draft choices, but damn losing 7 probowlers over 3 years just to produce a winless team is really freaking sad.

1) Sashi wasn't Hue's boss
2) Hue tried to worm his way out of signing an OC. He didn't get away with it.

Why did Hue interview a coach who was not qualified by Hues terms? Waste of time.

And Dorsey isn't Hue's boss. Both men report directly to the owner.



And you know this how?

The season ended on December 31. Today is the 24th of January. Evidently the team has been working on Hailey's deal for the past 3 or 4 days, so Hue did his interviews, decided on the guy he wanted for his OC, and the team hired him. Hue interviewed at least 4 OC candidates that we know of, including 3 who would have fit his criteria for giving up play-calling.

Anything in any organization that requires an implosion and a rebuild is dumb by definition. It does not work that way.

Creative destruction, never worked and it is a big lie. Organizations and organisms evolve by upgrading, improving.If any organizations has to implode to evolve its condemned to failure, because the demands and environment will always require you to adapt.

Things don't stand still so you can build according to a perfect blueprint.To achieve success, in any activity you have to adapt, rendering any implosion an unnecessary waste of resources.

So yes the plan was dumb, but that does not mean that the Coaches we had are not even dumber than the plan. In the end Sashi was successful implementing his plan. Our roster is a a similar level, but we are younger, have much more cap space and much more picks. Sashi only failed because he hired a mediocre coach, that couldn't deliver 3-4 wins a season,and established the grounds for a winning culture and set up a team identity.

The truth is that we imploded the organization and still stand in the same place, nothing was achieved because the whole premises were wrong. What we need is a change in the organization, the pursue of excellence and perpetual improvement. That's the secret of the most successful teams. Adapt and react to the environment, make the best from what you have and don't wait for tomorrow's success has an excuse for today's failures.

What I know about Joe Thomas is that he is a tackle, not a general manager.

Regarding The Plan...

I believe that everyone bought into the idea behind The Plan. If that wasn't the case, Hue and/or Sashi wouldn't be here.

I think, at some point along the way, Haslam decided to abort The Plan. I don't believe there is any one reason for this, and those reasons (my opinion) are varying degrees of understandable.

1) Sucking for a few years in the NFL is much different than sucking for a few years in baseball. This comes directly from the quote where somebody said that the losing just got so unpalatable after a while. They knew they were going to lose, but they didn't think it would be this much and hurt as much as it did. In one of Depo's first interviews, he got into this. He said that he told Haslam that it would be really rough the first couple years. He also said that, not only were they going to lose to accumulate draft capital, but their analytics on selecting players also needed to be dialed in. He said that Haslam was on board with this, and that he agreed to weather the storm until they were able to get on the right track. Haslam appears to have reneged on that agreement.
There are so few games in NFL, and tons in baseball. The intensity of each game makes serial losing MUCH harder to take. I'm not super into baseball, but the attitude just seems a lot less intense and focused (I may be wrong here, feel free to correct).

2) Analytics isn't plug-and-play from baseball to football as they hoped. IIRC, in Moneyball, they picked players off the scrap heap because of a specific part of that guy's game (ex. the guy had x many stolen bases last year, or the guy's slugging% was y). Putting a bunch of guys like that together can sorta "average a team out" to earn a bunch of wins in baseball. Baseball is much more strategic than football. I think what they tried to do was something like, "ok, we need one or two WRs, so let's select a bunch from a poor-WR draft, but as long as we get a couple guys that run at least x fast, and get a couple guys that have such-and-such good hands, and a guy or two that have thrown z number of blocks last year.... then, profit! To be fair, this worked really well when we decided to load up on FA offensive line on a down draft year, and let Pryor walk instead of giving him a bunch of money (I hated this decision at the time, but if anyone was "right" about that one, I would have to say that it was the Browns FO).

In hindsight, assembling a football team doesn't work so much like in baseball. A WR needs to get open and he needs to be able to catch, and you need to have so many of those guys on the field to have a decent passing attack. You need to have a QB that's worth a damn to have any sort of sustained success on offense. There's no real way around that, and there's no stat or formula that seems to be able to reliably pick a QB.

If we want Barkely, I don't understand why we wouldn't just take him at 1 then, then get our pick of the top 3 QBs at 4.

Because it's perfectly fine to have the second or third or fourth best runningback, but not so much with QB.

Back to Hailey:

Browns' Hue Jackson turns playcalling duties over to new offensive coordinator Todd Haley | cleveland.com
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2018/01/browns_announce_todd_haley_as.html#incart_2box

MOBILE, Alabama -- Todd Haley is now officially on the other side of the Turnpike Rivalry, and Browns coach Hue Jackson has handed him the keys to the car.

The Browns on Wednesday announced the previously reported hiring of Haley, 50, the former Steelers offensive boss, as their new offensive coordinator. Jackson also confirmed the prevously reported hiring of Amos Jones as special teams coordinator and announced Freddie Kitchens as running backs coach/associate head coach.

What's more, Jackson confirmed that he'll turn the playcalling duties over to Haley, which is a huge step for the third-year head coach.

"We're thrilled to bring Todd Haley in as our offensive coordinator," Jackson said in a release. "I've known Todd for a very long time and have respected and admired the job he's done as a play-caller in this league. He's a coordinator that has been successful in every place he's been. He has been a guy that has adjusted his offense to successfully complement and taken advantage of the skillset of his personnel. I've witnessed first-hand how prolific his offenses have been in the AFC North over the last six seasons.''

He explained his reasons for giving up playcalling after handling the chore himself the first two seasons and going without a coordinator. The Browns, challenged at quarterback those two years, have gone 1-31 in Jackson's first two seasons.

"As I reflected after the season and contemplated adding an offensive coordinator to the staff, my first thought was obviously improvement,'' he said. "If I was going to turn over the play calling duties to someone else, it had to be to someone that was experienced and had a long history of success in this league. We were going to be patient about it because there is always a lot of movement in the early part of the offseason.

"When Todd became available, I jumped at the opportunity to meet with him. Once we sat down and talked, it became quickly evident that Todd would be a great fit.''

Haley, who helped Ben Roethlisberger dominate the Browns as Steelers coordinator for the past six seasons, is eager to turn the tables on his former team.

"This is a great opportunity," Haley said in the release. "The Browns have a great history, great fans and deserve to have some fun and experience some winning. I want to help be part of that process. There is obviously a lot of work to do in order to get there, but I've always been excited about facing a challenge. There is no better feeling than when you can be a part of turning an organization around.

"Hue and I have had some good battles in competing against each other as coordinators and even as a head coach. We know each other well and I have a great deal of respect for him. He's so competitive and winning is the only thing that's important to him. You want to work with a coach like that.

"Hue and I share a lot of similar beliefs on how to be successful on offense. We have to score points, protect the ball, protect the quarterback and develop players. It's not too complicated, but at the same time, it is a great challenge. We are really looking forward to getting to work on it."

Related: Adam Henry and Ken Zampese join the Browns staff

Kitchens comes to the Browns after spending the past 11 seasons with the Cardinals, as running backs coach in 2017, QBs coach from 2013-16 and tight ends coach from 2007-12.

"Freddie has a history with Todd and that will make the process of installing the new elements of the offense much more efficient," Jackson said.

Kitchens could have a new starting running back, with Isaiah Crowell set to be a free agent.

Jones, who spent the past five seasons with the Cardinals, takes over a special teams unit that was often more of a liability than an asset in 2017 with so many young and inexperienced players on the unit.

Haley, in addition to helping Jackson resurrect the lowest scoring offense in the NFL in 2017, preside over a new rookie quarterback who will likely be selected No. 1 overall, and a new veteran QB who will likely hold down the fort until the rookie is ready.

The former head coach of the Chiefs from 2008 through most of 2011, Haley ran one of the most explosive offenses in the NFL over the past four years.

During that span, the Steelers were second in scoring only to the Patriots, and have been in the top 10 in the NFL in points scored in each of those four years, the club's longest such streak since the 1970s.

In 2017, The Steelers finished in the top 10 in several key offensive categories, including total yards (3rd), yards per play (7th), net passing yards per game (third), third down efficiency (2nd), and points per game (8th).

Roethlisberger, Antonio Brown and Le'Veon Bell also consistently finished among the league leaders and made multiple Pro Bowls under Haley.

In 2017, Roethlisberger finished 13th in the NFL with a 93.4 rating, and Bell finished third 1,291 yards. Brown was first in the NFL with 1,533 yards on 101 receptions, and caught 9 TD passes. The Steelers also sent a league-high six offensive players to the Pro Bowl in Brown, Roethlisberger, Bell, and offensive linemen Alejandro Villanueva, David DeCastro and Maurkice Pouncey.

In 2016, the Steelers advanced to the AFC Championship Game and sent five offensive players to the Pro Bowl. Bell led the NFL in scrimmage yards per game (157.0). He also became the fastest player in NFL history to reach 3,000 rushing yards and 1,500 receiving yards in his career (38 games).

Haley was head coach of the Chiefs from 2008 through week 14 of the 2011 season, posting a 19-26 mark. In 2010, he guided the team to the greatest turnaround in franchise history, from 4-12 to 10-6. They also made the playoffs for the first time since 2006.

Haley served as the Cardinals' offensive coordinator in 2007-08, during which the team won the club's first division title since 1975 and advanced to the Super Bowl. Under Haley, the Cardinals were one of the most explosive offenses in the NFL, tying for third in the league with a franchise-record 427 points in 2008. The Cardinals also became the fifth team in NFL history with three receivers recording 1,000 yards in the same season.

From 1999 to 2006, Haley served as receivers coach for the Cowboys, Bears and Jets, making the playoffs with each of those teams.

Haley has received a ringing endorsement from Hall of Fame quarterback Kurt Warner, who tweeted last week "I know if I had anything left in this old body, I would sign up tomorrow to work and play for Todd again.''

Haley was Warner's offensive coordinator when they lost to the Steelers in Super Bowl XLIII in 2009.

Haley inherits two new assistant coaches Jackson hired this offseason in receivers coach Adam Henry, formerly with the Giants; and quarterbacks coach Ken Zampese, former offensive coordinator of the Bengals.

Jackson now has two former head coaches manning his offense and defense, including defensive coordinator Gregg Williams, who coached the Bills.

Turnpike Rivalry... I'm not even sure that renewed in 99.

I think it was renewed trough 2007, but since then it has been non existant at least to Pittsburgh ...

Wooooohoooooo ... Thank God Hue is handing over play calling duties ....

maybe we won’t abondon the run every game and maybe just maybe we’ll utilize Duke properly ... here’s to hoping!!!!

No kidding.

This BS of people wanting Duke lined up as a Slot Receiver is flat out STUPID.

You just killed half of Duke's worth.

Go Slot periodically but his biggest asset is lining him up in the backfield with the option to run or pass.

This ain't flipping Rocket Science.