DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Chief Wahoo dropped

so you see the conundrum right? you say its NOT offensive, I say IT is?

yet you try to ridicule those who say the Chief Wahoo is not offensive - others say it is.

Here is a thought, if it is offensive to you, don't be a fan or watch.

Everyone knows what Yankee refers to: White northerners.

My bad, I forgot to be politically correct: White European illegal immigrant people that lived in the north. That fought to free slaves (that part gets left out a lot)

Didn't read all the responses. This is obviously the result of the growing pussification of America. If you're offended, keep stomping your feet until you get your way. If someone hurts your feeling, ditto. If you don't feel like working, just let the government take care of you. Here illegally? No problem...just hit up a sanctuary city for now. You're good to go.

If a HUGE majority of American Indians were offended by Chief Wahoo, then fine. I highly doubt that to be true. If you're not an American Indian and you are offended, YOU are part of the problem. Shut your mouth and do something productive for YOUR country instead of jumping on another complaint filled whiny bandwagon.

The Chief is NOT going away. They will continue to sell merchandise with him on it. And I will GLADLY display him EVERYWHERE I go. If YOU don't like it, GFY. If you see me and tell me you are offended, I will tell you to your face to GFY. I have EVERY right to proudly wear anything with Chief Wahoo on it. You can stomp your feet and cry all you want but it won't stop me. If I'm in a good mood, I might give you a tissue.

I am disappointed that Dolan caved in. I would have told Manfred to KMA.

actually yes, if the majority of those groups seem ok with it, its fine.

Pick a topic, ANY topic, and find me someone who is not offended about the opposite of said topic, let me know how trying to pander to every person works out for you. You can please EVERYONE.

I haven't brought up the Redskins, you have. They are not even in the same sport we are talking about lol.

Once again this is completely wrong. See the multiple post regarding it! It is not easily corrected - or we wouldn't be having an entire thread about it, and it wouldn't be NATIONAL NEWS, would it. AND AGAIN, show me one thing that does not offend someone.

THE PEOPLE who are complaining about it being removed are NOT THE PEOPLE who is supposedly offended by it. I go to every opening day. Guess what, ya'll protest every year. out of the 30-40 people protesting usually, 0 are Native American. Its typically a bunch a young white dudes with no jobs, that are again OFFENDED BY EVERYTHING

"The term "Yankee" and its contracted form "Yank" have several interrelated meanings, all referring to people from the United States"

All inclusive to people from the USA. The English call us all Yankees.

you completely missed the word IF

ohhhh, yeah its the owner, not the people protesting and causing trouble for him. If the owner cared, he would not still be selling gear and keeping the trademark. seems like he is just trying to pacify the babies.


I am getting it tattooed on this weekend thank you very much.

I totally messed up my response to this. I can second white people being stereotyped at the welfare office.

Easily fixed:

This is crap. I think ND needs to drop their logo. A fighting Irishman....drunk no doubt.



The Chief will always be in my house. I just ordered 5 caps and 5 sweatshirts with the smiling Chief of them...that will carry me forward for 25 years.

I don't understand why MLB always ends up with a half-wit for commissioner.

Revert back to the "Spiders". I even saw a logo today that incorporated a spider with a block C. Imagine the Richmond Spiders logo that Lauletta had on his helmet in the Sr. Bowl with the block C for the spider's body. It's cool.

This is kind of confusing but I got through it and must say I have mad respect for whoever said this and experienced it.

Was it you KY?

This comparison doesn’t really work considering the name Fighting Irish was likely started by Irish people at the university.

There is a difference. The system was set up to benefit white folks. People with brown and black skin (and women) deal with deeply ingrained systemic racism (and sexism) on a daily basis making it significantly harder for them than white men . I totally validate what you are saying, but your particular experience is not due to a system that was set up to oppress you simply because of the color of your skin (or your gender).

j/c:

What kills me is how so many people who are in favor of keeping the logo are accusing others of whining and crying while they whine and cry over and over again about losing a logo?

That's freaking hilarious. It's a logo and you are stomping your feet, whining, and crying to keep it. Wow!

There is a good video about how to deal with people who tell racist jokes and using the "it's just a joke/PC Police" argument. Basically it all boils down to people whining that they "should be allowed to say whatever they want" but that those who call them out on it are "not allowed to say whatever they want about what they just said".

It's the same thing with those whining about the removal of the logo.

It's weird that so many people can get so upset about losing a freaking logo. It's like their first-born was stolen from them.

I think it boils down to this. I'll address the larger group. This isn't directed at you.

---------------------

No one is calling you racist, telling you that you support racism, or any sort of hyperbolic claim as such if you like Wahoo.

People are trying to help you understand why such logos end up as discriminatory, show poor taste, and how they support stereotypes of an oppressed group.

Not many people truly know the hstory of what happened to the Native Americans. Many assumed they were savage, believed they lacked any sort of technology, and they had no business occupying the land they did. Little does anyone know how they ran democratic governments, lived off of a harsh land, and did many admirable things that barely anyone knows about.

They were systematically exterminated, through blood-drunk manifest destiny, and sent to live on patches of land which ended up as basically inhabitable. Many decry Native Americans on reservations for welfare, gambling, and alcohol. How little do we know the truths of reservations.

Casinos on reservations lose money, no money gets generated for the tribe, little services exist to help support Native Americans (no, they don't get free college...and neither do my students who are Alaska Native), and barely any agency is given to Native American or Alaska Native groups in our country.

So how do we wish to honor Native Americans in Cleveland? People wish to honor Native Americans in Cleveland by throwing up some goofy character with a large grin, paint the character with red skin because they MUST look different from dominant culture in some eyes, and place a feather on his head to show it's about war (when we fail to realize what and when the feathers are worn.)

There's a lack of education on Native Americans, we need more partnerships, and education must happen! Getting rid of Wahoo is the first step.

Be part of the solution, and don't throw up inane arguments of why you're offended that a stereotypical oppressive caricature got taken down.

Native Americans as an entire group are doomed in the United States. Their communities are plagued by poverty, drug abuse, poor schools, and alcoholism.

While we are in an era of promoting certain minority groups, Native Americans lack enough members to warrant much concern. They have almost no voice.

While they are in the minority, blacks have enough members and clout to be heard. I am not saying that in a disparaging way towards blacks. They should be heard. Gays are similar. Obviously, women's right get addressed even if they are not the minority.

Native Americans are few in number and have no political or social clout. Thus, very few care about them. This is why I tell friends like Swish and Clem that the whole thing is fake from the mainstream. Mainstream America doesn't really care about the rights of blacks, gays, and women. They only care about not getting called out and saying the politically correct things.

The proof of what I am saying is in how mainstream America treats true minority groups, such as Native Americans, Mexicans, Muslims, etc.

I get that you can't comprehend what people try to tell you. I'll try another tact.

I grew up in a very hard life. I've never been to a Browns game or a Cavs game. I couldn't afford it even if I wanted to. To me it's pure luxury and fantasy to even think about it. I have been to one, just one, Cleveland Indians game. I don't even remember the year but it was about 30 years ago. I got to go for free because they donated tickets to my school and we went as a field trip. I am pretty sure it's the only professional game I will EVER see in my lifetime. We beat the Kansas City Royals 5-to-3 and the stadium was rocking. I was a die hard fan until the baseball strike destroyed a year I KNEW the Indians would win the World Series.

In my hard life that friendly and cheerful Wahoo hat was one of my most favorite things in the world. It didn't look down on indians it made me LOVE indians. No one can hate such a friendly happy face telling you to come in and have fun with him. Just a logo you say? Just a logo?! Racist?!!!

I am so sick and tired of people hell bent on looking for excuses to be offended and miserable ruining things for everyone else. It's NOT just Chief Wahoo it's happening all over the place to things everywhere. I don't care if .5% of the community is offended. There is ALWAYS someone offended by something. Sick and tired of the community letting them ruin anything they feel like ruining just because a very few are offended. Hell, half the time they are offended just because everyone else likes something. But by all means ignore what the other 99.5% wants and cares about.

It ain't just a logo.

How is the game of baseball, a game based on hitting a ball with a bat, ruined by getting rid of an image that supports stereotypes?

There's an obvious problem if you find outrage about the removal of a proven racial stereotype than any argument relating to the actual game of baseball.



Would killing anyone you want be okay if only 0.5% were against it?

Would segregation be okay if only 0.5% people were against it?

Would outlawing Christianity be okay if only 0.5% people were against it?



You're absolutely right. It's about opening up pathways to honor Indigenous Americans, it's about engaging civic pride in the original settlers of the Northeast Ohio area, and it's about educating society on the truth about what happened in this country.

I'm beginning to think you have an issue with reading comprehension. I explained perfectly fine why it's not just a logo to me. You choose to ignore or not read everything I write and instead come up with a facetious circumstantial nonsense.

Do you understand what a country is?
Do you understand what a social contract that binds citizens to its country is?
Do you think it's possible to make everyone happy?
Hell do you think everyone Should be happy?

YOU CANT MAKE EVERYONE HAPPY! It doesn't work because too many are sick disturbed people that you can NEVER make happy. If 95% of people agree that someone should die then they will most likely die. If your part of that 5% then the smart thing to do is find somewhere else to call home because you're obviously not wanted. If your not wanted ANYWHERE in the whole world then perhaps you should change and adapt your way of thinking before you become extinct. It's not about right or wrong. When you join a community it's expected that you join them and accept their social contract. If you can't accept their social contract then you need to move on and find a society where you can.

No government succeeds when it ignores the wishes of the majority of its people and puts the demands of the 5% above the 95%. It almost always leads to extreme violence and/or civil war when it does.

Do you honestly think Indians were just a bunch of tree hugging naturalist? They didn't rape and kill each other? They didn't create huge warbands to murder each other and have massive wars killing each other off? They didn't steal land from each other? They didn't enslave each other any chance they could get? If you think so they your blissfully ignorant of actually history.

They were not innocent little children. They were nations that went to war and lost. Same as hundreds of other nations all across the world. I don't feel guilt for being born on the winning side. I do think reservations are stupid. I'm all for abolishing every single reservation and having all indians be full citizens and treated the same as the rest of us. Do you think they would want that though? Probably not as many as you think they would. Especially the ones who know how to manage their lands and take advantage of not paying taxes on said land. Again there is no solution that makes everyone happy. The winners of war are never going to apologize about getting to choose who gets to be happy. I am not saying its fair mind you but it IS reality.

The USA is NEVER going to revert back to being owned by several hundred indian tribes. It's just not going to happen. Tribes need to deal with reality and either accept being full americans like they are entitled to or give up on me caring about what goes on in their reservations that are not part of my country.

I would rather they all become full citizens and treated just the same as I am. That probably makes me an uncaring racist right? I mean Chief Wahoo made me love indians but since that makes me racist and uncaring too I just refuse to even care anymore.

No one is calling you racist, telling you that you support racism, or any sort of hyperbolic claim as such if you don't like Wahoo either.



People are trying to help you understand why they feel such logos are NOT discriminatory, in poor taste, and do not support sterotypes.




Many people already know all of that.



We are talking about a sports team, and many of us think y'all get to worked up about nothing, just like you think we are getting all worked up about nothing.




Getting rid of Wahoo does NOTHING. It's like burning books because you don't want people to read them.

Look out
Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben y'all got folks with a black face and big toothy grins on your products so ya have to go.

Look out Orbit gum. Y'all got spokespeople with white faces and big toothy grins.... HOW OFFENSIVE.

MR Clean wow he has to go as well he looks like a skin head.. damn racists cleaner.

Vers, its not about a logo. Look at the comments form posters, cheering about a PRIVATE business being FORCED to do something. Being FORCED to drop a logo, FORCED to change a name, FORCED to comply. Its about some wanting to dictate what everyone does, reads, writes, says, etc.

They didn't get rid of wahoo. They changed their uniforms and in the process made wahoo
more talked about and their trademark on wahoo and the memorabilia more valuable. Quite a good business move.

Don't forget some folks are still not happy. They want Cleveland to drop the name Indians all together

Like I said, you are whining, crying, and stomping your feet over some stupid logo.

We get that you have had a hard life. Although, I must admit the American hard life is so different than some of true poverty I have seen outside of this country. I mean, computers, internet, cell phones (I see homeless people in this city w/cell phones) etc. Nevertheless, we get it. It's been hard. But, it's been a significantly harder path for somebody growing up on a reservation. And, what does your hard life have to do with the team logo?

Everything you write about is your own interpretation of the logo and what it means to you. So, an oppressed people find the same logo you love an offensive stereotype. Their opinions obviously don't matter to you as long as you have your happy memories and connotations with that logo.

I never liked Wahoo or the Elf. Too Cartoon and Disney for me. So, I got an idea...Disney have similar logos...go buy a Mickey Mouse shirt instead.

That's just it though. It's not really the "oppressed people" that find it all that offensive, it's social justice warriors that think they are speaking on their behalf.

In all honestly, I'm actually sort of with you. I don't really care for the Wahoo logo. I prefer to wear Indians gear that doesn't have it. But I don't feel like I have to tell others what to do either.

And where does it stop? Okay, we got rid of the Wahoo logo, which was kind of offensive, but some people find the word "Indians" offensive too. Is that going to be the next thing to get targeted? I'm already seeing a few articles stating as such ("Yeah, you got rid of the logo, now what about the name?") Do we have to appease every single person that finds something offensive?

No, we don't.

I do think it's important to listen to the complaints that are brought up. I don't think we should just automatically dismiss them and say "it's always been this way."

I think we should examine the situation and then make a fair and responsible choice. I can understand why people want Chief Wahoo to be retired or to how the name "Redskins" is offensive. However, I don't think names like "Indians," "Braves," "Blackhawks," "Seminoles," etc are offensive. Furthermore, I find the logos and/or mascots of those teams actually honor the heritage of some of those groups. I actually like the Washington Redskins logo, but the name is offensive.

I think we can listen to people w/out having to bow down to them. I think we should be secure enough in ourselves that we can accept change if it is for the greater good, but that doesn't mean we have to adhere to all the wishes of all the social justice warriors.

For every white "social justice warrior" speaking out against the logo I have also seen as many, if not more, Native Americans vocally active in the removal of these names and logos. Thing is, you can easily find somebody, or even a few, who doesn't care and interview them on tv and everybody thinks they speak for the majority.

Fighting Illini changed their logo...how long did the folks/old alum who wanted to keep it mourn its loss? The discussions and arguments were probably forgotten, and or dropped, the following season. We all know when you institute change people struggle at first with its concept. Before long they forget about it. Life moves on.

Where does it end? Revert the name back to the Spiders. That has historical reference to Cleveland. Logo can be a spider whose body is a block "C". There is already one mock up design floating around the internet that is pretty cool.

Yeah, I get that, but this isn't a black and white "yeah that's offensive and that's not" thing. You think the name Indians is fine, but plenty of other people find the name offensive. Do we have to cave to their demands and rename the team to something else? What's becomes threshold for "offensiveness" before things have to change?

I hear you. It's certainly a concern. I am totally opposed to buckling to every demand that social justice crusaders propose.

It's just my hope that those who make such decisions will at least listen to the concerns and then make a fair and rational decision. Again, I get the complaints regarding Chief Wahoo and the name "Redskins." I don't understand the problem w/names like "Indians," "Blackhawks," "Seminoles," etc.

Of course, I'm not confident that fairness and logic will always prevail, but it is my hope that that combination wins the day.

Nice gaslighting.

Yeah, I can agree with that. I was sort of liking the way the Indians were trying to slowly phase Wahoo out. After several years, he could of been gone and people probably wouldn't of put up too much of a stink. For whatever reason, they seemed to bring him back again last year, and then pulled the plug completely this week. It just seems to put the focus on everything again.

Now I feel like crusaders can claim victory and use it to go after the next thing they happen to find offensive.

This is a nice story. It doesn't make it not racist. It means you have emotional attachment to a logo because you love(d) a team. Which means that your view on this subject is skewed because of your emotional attachment.