Assuming we draft a QB - I sure as heck hope that Dorsey picks the QB he likes best because that's his job. Hue is the HC, he doesn't get to determine who is selected in the draft ... he has input and his opinion and input will be weighed by Dorsey and influence the decision if it is close between different prospects.... but if Hue loves QB A and Dorsey loves QB B - we better pick QB B every time because that's Dorsey's job.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
I'm not even going to pretend I know the process involved in how they actually determine which players are drafted. However, I would hope it goes something like this.....
The coaching staff relays exactly what attributes they are looking for at each position. Which type of players best fit into what systems they are trying to run.
At that point the person responsible for the draft finds them the players with those attributes.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Yes - that makes perfect sense. However - if the attributes Hue wants are all present in say - Lamar Jackson - and Dorsey has him rated as the 5th best QB and say a grade of 7.2 .... and Darnold has some of the attributes Hue is looking for and is the #1 QB on Dorsey's board and is graded at 8.9 or something - then Dorsey would and should take Darnold.
I would also think it would be logical that if Hue likes the physical traits of a QB like Darnold more than a pocket passer like Rosen - and Dorsey has Rosen graded marginally ahead of Darnold then there is every chance we'd take Darnold.
Now at what variance does Dorsey pick who he thinks is the better QB than who Hue says he likes ?? In the example above how much higher does Dorsey have to grade Rosen over Darnold to pick Rosen despite Hue's preference ?? I have no idea. Rosen and Darnold might be #1 and #2 on Dorsey's QB board - but he might have Rosen at a 9+ and Darnold at in the mid to low 8's ... I'd think if Hue had a long track record as a successful HC his opinion would carry more weight than it does at the moment.
Last edited by mgh888; 02/03/1801:09 PM.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
Yeah ... Garrett was the consensus #1 pick last year and the Browns didn't blow it. It would be marvelous if the same clarity of choice could shape itself over the next 3 months regarding the QB. However I don't see that happening. I think it breaks down to:
Rosen - 'perfect' mechanics and elite arm talent - but questions over concussions, mobility in the pocket, maturity.
Darnold - all the intangibles, loopy throwing motion.
Mayfield - height and offensive scheme at college.
Allen - tons of arm talent and potential, accuracy concerns and needs time (maybe 2 years).
Jackson - I don't particularly like Jackson as an option ...
And then there are QB's like White and Rudolph who might be late 1st round or mid 2nd round steals that could end up on the Steelers or Patriots and they'd end up being the next version of Jimmy Garoppolo ....
It's not an easy decision imo and every choice comes with some risk.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
You don’t question Mayfield’s maturity as well? Crotch grabbing on the field. Throwing balls at opposing players during warm ups. Using the other team’s part of the field during warm ups and disrupting them. If maturity is factor to you then be consistent.
Your starting 2018 Qb is ... (If it's me, today) ( Disregarding the fact I'd have said Tannehill, x years ago and he'd still be.)
Just potential, nothing's ever certain, but I'd pursue this.
Starter: Jay Cutler Backup: DeShone Kizer Future: Baker Mayfield (Cutler, Big Money, 3 years of a 6 year contract, same as I'd pursue Terrelle Pryor with.)
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
It was a quick list .... not a detailed QB breakdown. Sure he may have maturity issues. I also failed to mention his arm talent, moxy, big play ability and downfield accuracy.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
Dorsey is in a position to draft what he believes is the best QB in the draft.
Are you saying, mac, that Dorsey will draft his pick regardless of who Hue wants (if different than Dorsey)? Or will it be a collaborative effort of the two? Simply picking your brain here...
32..I said, what I said...you applied your own interpretation to my comment.
I believe many individuals might be given input during the process and maybe they will agree on one player...maybe not.
I think some people want to create controversy where there is none. I have not seen any indications that Hue and Dorsey are butting heads. I think this entire staff will do the best they can to bring the best qb available to the organization.
Repeated so many times because it is something a lot of people miss regarding ALL players. Some people get caught up in numbers, both good and bad, or what their perceived value is to their old team when trying to predict that players value to our team.
But football has so many variables you can't depend on the numbers nor can you predict how said player will play on a different team with a different scheme with a different roster and different coaching.
Circumstances and situations matter.
Not with accuracy they don’t ...
U can “massage” things to improve the numbers so they appear more accurate than they actually are on paper ... but thats just another reason why STATS ARE FOR .....
Yet, despite everything he lead a team kicking and screaming into the playoffs.
If u think he lead them to the playoffs ... that just tells me u didn’t watch any bills games ....
His HC was STUCK with him last year and even though he “led” his team to the playoffs his HC still wants nothing to do with him ...
Tyrod Taylor - QB - Bills
Tyrod Taylor won't take a pay cut to remain with the Bills.
Taylor wants to stay in Buffalo, but his future is in doubt after another uneven season. The Bills can save $15 million from making Taylor a post-June cut and look likely to move on. The Broncos, who went after Taylor in 2015 free agency, have been connected as a possible landing spot.
Josh McCown said he's "fine" with returning to the Jets in 2018.
McCown knows the Jets are in play to draft a quarterback with the sixth overall pick in the 2018 draft and seems willing to be a bridge quarterback if that ends up being the case. Coming off the best season of his career in 2017, McCown is likely a contingency plan for the Jets if they miss out on Kirk Cousins in free agency.
I'm not even going to pretend I know the process involved in how they actually determine which players are drafted. However, I would hope it goes something like this.....
The coaching staff relays exactly what attributes they are looking for at each position. Which type of players best fit into what systems they are trying to run.
At that point the person responsible for the draft finds them the players with those attributes.
Maybe it's just me, but if I am Dorsey, I draft the players I want. The attributes I want and need on my team. I wouldn't give Hue much voice in the matter.
I pick them, you coach them.
I would listen to the coaching staff on what positions they think they need. I would listen to that, but other than that, just shut-up.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
Dorsey is in a position to draft what he believes is the best QB in the draft.
Are you saying, mac, that Dorsey will draft his pick regardless of who Hue wants (if different than Dorsey)? Or will it be a collaborative effort of the two? Simply picking your brain here...
32..I said, what I said...you applied your own interpretation to my comment.
I believe many individuals might be given input during the process and maybe they will agree on one player...maybe not.
That's why I asked for clarification. Thanks mac...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
Maybe it's just me, but if I am Dorsey, I draft the players I want. The attributes I want and need on my team. I wouldn't give Hue much voice in the matter.
I pick them, you coach them.
I would listen to the coaching staff on what positions they think they need. I would listen to that, but other than that, just shut-up.
To be clear I do not think there are any issues whatsoever between Dorsey and Hue
The process you describe sounds like how a GM and HC end up in quick divorce.
The Head Coaches and coaching staff must have input with the GMs and scouting staff. These 2 branches of the personnel department need to share the same vision of the team. One can't envision of power team while the other envisions a speed team. One can't envision a West Coast offense and the other draft for a vertical throwing power running play-action offense. It would never work. And it would end poorly.
The coaches and the scouting department need to be simpatico.
Lets use Josh Rosen/Baker Mayfield as an example. If the HC/OC love one QBs mental make-up and personality and can't see themselves working well together with the other QB but the GM likes and drafts the other QB prospect....that marriage is doomed to failure.
ed, I think the coaching staff should have a say in what kind of players they get and what positions and/or skill sets they need to run their offense and defense. I think the coaches can be part of the interview process and part of the personal workouts.
I don't think the coaches should scout players. That is the job of the scouting department.
I think the entire staff comes together and creates their Vertical and Horizontal boards and in the end, I think Dorsey will make the final call. However, you don't tell your coach to "shut-up."
It's about working as a team instead of a collection of individuals. I know you agree w/that........I'm just adding on to what you said.
I would listen to the coaching staff on what positions they think they need. I would listen to that, but other than that, just shut-up.
Sashi is gone. I think our new team will work well together and value one-another's opinions. It would be foolish to create animosity.
I don't think there is any animosity. We just had a poster bringing it up because he hopes there is some animosity.
Quit bringing up Sashi. I know he is gone. I never even liked his name.
I am just saying that Hue needs to stay in his lane. He hasn't shown me enough with his coaching skills that he should also have much say in who we daft.
Show me you are a coach first before your start weighing in on who or what attributes a player needs.
I'd say that since the guy can't win a game, that's fair enough, and don't even mention Sashi, he's not here. Hue is here. It's all on Hue now. Nobody else to point fingers at....I am good with that.
We have continuity, we have football guys in place to make decisions, now it's time for Hue to coach his ass off and we win 9 games.
He's a great coach.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
Maybe it's just me, but if I am Dorsey, I draft the players I want. The attributes I want and need on my team. I wouldn't give Hue much voice in the matter.
I pick them, you coach them.
I would listen to the coaching staff on what positions they think they need. I would listen to that, but other than that, just shut-up.
To be clear I do not think there are any issues whatsoever between Dorsey and Hue
The process you describe sounds like how a GM and HC end up in quick divorce.
The Head Coaches and coaching staff must have input with the GMs and scouting staff. These 2 branches of the personnel department need to share the same vision of the team. One can't envision of power team while the other envisions a speed team. One can't envision a West Coast offense and the other draft for a vertical throwing power running play-action offense. It would never work. And it would end poorly.
The coaches and the scouting department need to be simpatico.
Lets use Josh Rosen/Baker Mayfield as an example. If the HC/OC love one QBs mental make-up and personality and can't see themselves working well together with the other QB but the GM likes and drafts the other QB prospect....that marriage is doomed to failure.
I agree, but the onus is also on the coaching staff to trust the front office in their decisions. The coach shouldn't be drafting the players purely on the logic that the marriage is doomed to failure if the GM goes his own direction because the marriage is doomed to failure if the front office isn't allowed to do their job.
The coach needs a voice when it comes to what he wants, and even who he likes, but he also needs to trust the front office in their evaluations.
Draft whichever of the QBs the team likes best at #1 overall.
Offer Cousins a $45 million, 1 year deal, or a 2 year $90 million deal. Fully guarantee the darn thing. The Browns can afford it, and other teams cannot afford it. Maybe structure year 2 with a $30 million roster bonus, and a $15 million salary. (that would allow the Browns to trade him if the rookie gets in games, and does well)
I think that Cousins would have to consider that.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
I don't know if you all are saying the same thing and just don't know it or what...
I think you obviously have to listen to your coach on scheme and style, but it's the GM and scouting who should draft and sign the players to match the needs or it'll never work.
I posted an article in another thread where Kyle Shanahan had expressed concern about the depth of his offensive line. Farmer signed an Olineman that wasn't suitable and not athletic enough for Shanahan's zone blocking scheme. Stuff like that won't win and it's why we are perpetually in a rut. Alex Mack was injured after a 7-4 start that year and we ended up losing the final 5 games partly because Farmer didn't sign/draft the type of players his coaches need.
As far as Hue getting involved with the actual drafting of a player, no... He needs to trust his GM. Character concerns should be vetted by the GM and his scouts. Where Farmer was on this when we drafted Manziel who the heck knows...
Ugh, I hated the Erving pick ..... and was told, by many people, that I was nuts, and that he would be a great OL for us.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
I think its more the fact that you are stating that we will pass up on using our First round picks 1 and 4 on a QB because we picked up Tyrod Taylor. That is where you possibly lose some QB cred. If with all our Cap room and Draft picks come away with that QB room next year...well You're Fired...lol
Now a lot will be determined by who we pick up in FA.
If it is Cousins I hope we do pick up a QB such as White. and we have Cousins, White and Kizer as our QB room. But not Tyrod Taylor.
If we don't have much Cap room and are picking somewhere in the middle of the first round yeah possibly that would be the investment we could come up with for the QB department.
But the fact is we have overwhelming Cap Space and two very important First Round picks in the top 5 including the overall #1 pick which means we get first dibs.
I don't know about you but you have put ACCURACY off the table as most important virtue of an NFL QB.
jmho we better do better than that of Dorsey is a dud. If I think that of him how can I remotely praise you for that statement. If it was a brain fart just thinking out loud as one of many options ok. I haven't been here that much lately and not read many posts. So if that is one of many "hey what about" scenarios then I apologize. But if that is you serious wish list....
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
I am not saying the staff shouldn't have input. I am saying they shouldn't have any say.
I don't think people are disagreeing as much as some of the posts would seem to indicate.
I think most or all of us think Hue and Dorsey are going to be sort of on the same page ... both have been labelled 'old school' - which is probably a bit misleading or a little unkind because I think both are smart enough and agile enough to incorporate new trends, schemes and any new concept in the NFL that shows a successful trend....
I think most or all think Hue and the coaching staff should and will provide input on the types of players that will best fit their schemes. And for the most part that should/will probably result in some agreement on what players in the draft and FA the Browns should pursue.
Where I agree with Peen 100% - is that Dorsey's job is ultimately to provide the talent and make roster decisions.... if it came down to Dorsey evaluating a player(s) differently that Hue - Dorsey has to pick his guy. End of story. That's his area of responsibility and what he's paid for. . . . the alternative would be to have all this collaboration and research - have Hue and Dorsey disagree and for Dorsey then cave into Hue's desires and in that case there would be absolutely zero point in having Dorsey as an employee, you may as well simply let Hue have all the power.
It doesn't mean anyone is inferring or predicting conflict. After we got Dorsey and then Wolf and then Haley - I was happier about the coaching and FO situation than at any time since 1999. That hasn't changed one iota. I have a lot of confidence in us making good decisions and Hue/Dorsey moving forward together.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
There's a difference in a HC "having say" in the player drafted than the type of players he needs to run his system. That's where the GM and HC need to be on the same page. That's why it's called an organization. We've seen enough dysfunction around here to last a lifetime.
And when the GM is telling the HC to shut up, that's exactly what it seems you're trying to promote, dysfunction. From the very start.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
