DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2018 NFL Season 2018 NFL Draft Josh Allen

If Brett Favre in 1988 is too long ago, would Matt Stafford be recent enough? His college stats over 3 years (2004-2006): 57.1% completions. He was at 65.7% for the Lions in 2017.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/matthew-stafford-1.html

Everyone can find exceptions to the rule. That really doesn't change the rule itself.

Pretty much hits the nail on the head.

It's a fair question.

Part of it is his footwork to be sure. Part of it is that there is a clear disconnect on where he sees the ball going and where it actually goes. I call it spatial recognition but I am sure the pros call it something else. I will try to describe it the best I can.

With Spatial Recognition you have to understand where out in space the target is and will be in the next few seconds. It's takes great field vision to read and recognize and high intelligence to make the subconscious math calculations. It's similar to what air force pilots have to master to fly planes in a dogfight.

You can get better at Spatial Recognition by training in the same system until certain actions are on an instinctual level but there seems to be a hard cap on potential to improve. Some people just have a natural talent for it and some just don't. Great field vision and a natural math talent seem to effect that cap the most. That being said there are some that have a natural subconscious ability to do it without really thinking about it but they are very rare.

One way you can estimate it is by watching how fast a QB makes a decision post snap and if his throws lead the WR because he is throwing them open or if he is kind of slow to decide and then throwing it in a way that interrupts their stride.

This is one of the reasons that Darnold and Rosen are thought of so highly. They both make good decisions really fast. Darnold is elite in reaction speed to change his throws on a dime and Rosen is elite at seeing the big picture and instinctively knowing where the open field will develop and so Rosen does a great job throwing WRs open.

Ask yourself:
Does Allen hit WRs in stride or does he get it in the general area?
Does Allen make his decisions fast or do they tend to take a little longer than 3 seconds?

I'm not interested in his arm talent because I don't see enough accuracy or spatial recognition. It doesn't matter if you can throw hard if you can't process information fast enough to deliver the ball accurately.

Of course, but Stafford and Favre are two pretty notable exceptions, and no I don't think Favre is "too long ago" to be relevant to the discussion. If I were to cite Terry Bradshaw's 52.5% in college, I would get the "too long ago" argument, but if we are talking about fairly recent young QBs with superior arm talent and the desire to improve, then I think Favre and Stafford are legit comparisons to cite in discussing Allen. Me, I don't scout QBs, but I'll defer to posters like Bonefish who do. If they (and the Browns' FO) think he's viable, then I hope the Browns consider him. If he needs to sit for a couple years, then find a placeholder vet who can win you a few games in the meantime. Cousins, Keenum, Bradford, McCarron, Dalton - I don't care. Just please stop the suck.

The drawback to drafting Allen is the lack of patience it would take to develop him into a viable threat. The fans and press would be birthing cows so fast the first three years it would likely drive him out of town. Personally, I see him as one of the top prospects, and would consider taking him over Darnold. I would also consider taking him over Rosen, should the concussion issue prove to be a legitimate concern affecting his will to play and potential longevity.

I like that. Stop the Suck. Words to live by...

Did any of you watch in the second half of the Senior Bowl ???

Spatial recognition? First what you described is not what the definition of spatial recognition is.

I’ve seen Allen put the ball in smell, extremely small windows so by what you’re saying he is an accurate QB. Cause he has done it. He needs to do it more consistently.

I really couldn’t follow how what you’re saying in all that pertains to a guy throwing a football to a spot, albeit a moving spot. Sounds like you’re taking it to the very extreme for Quarterbacking. I’m not gonna go that far with it, I’ll just watch tape. I mean no disrespect.

J/c


I don't see how anyone that has watched Allen and Kizer's college games can honestly come away and say they are not similar prospects.

And to that extent I don't see how anyone that vehemently dislikes Kizer can advocate Allen as a top 10 prospect.

None taken. As I said, other might call it something else. For instance here is a good article to read about spacial awareness in developing children.

http://occupationaltherapyforchildren.over-blog.com/article-spatial-awareness-108726104.html

Think of me saying Field Vision as spacial awareness. In other words in relation to oneself can you correctly gauge distance and height an object is from oneself.

With Spatial Recognition you take that spacial awareness and then your brain calculates where those other objects will be when you go to move the football through space. They are actually doing intense math calculations by instinct through their subconscious mind.

You will often hear a QB say, "I was thinking to much instead of letting the game come to me." In other words they lost confidence in their subconscious processes and tried to force things. This is why when a QB loses his confidence you will see him hold onto the ball too long because he is scared of trusting himself to make that judgement. He no longer trusts his spatial awareness or special recognition.

For me when you see a QB who is inconsistent I see someone who needs rigorous training and mental reprogramming. That is not someone worthy of being taken in the first round. It is not easy for a QB to overcome mental concentration issues and lack of spatial recognition. Not to mention most coaches have no idea to fix it through training to begin with.

I hope I am explaining it well to you. I know it might feel complicated to some. it's just something I go through naturally though as I watch QB's. I am far too lazy to do that with every position though. Receivers and DBs also tend to use this ability too but they have to rely more on reaction time. The ones who are ballhawks tend to have good spatial recognitions skills though.

I can’t speak to all that, to me it sounds like an awful lot of stuff that happens in a split moment. Referring this to Allen from what I’ve seen of him his issues with his feet are correctable and like I said when he sets his feet right he looks very accurate. I don’t know if it’ll take rigorous training just repatition. The more he does it right the better he’ll get at it. It’s not like he’s wildly inaccurate even when his feet aren’t right. 2-3 more completions a game and he’s a 65% completion percentage guy. He probably had that many drops every game. You think he’s far away from being accurate, I think he’s not that far off at all.

A player is consistent or he isn't. Allen isn't. We can hash out circumstances all we like but the simple fact is that he doesn't play at a good level of play consistently right now.

Can he get better? Maybe. Maybe not. Making that GUESS in the top of the first round usually gets you a bust and not in the hall of fame.

When you take a project QB who is going to need time and training that is the very definition of a 2nd or 3rd round QB. Not a first.

How can that be the definition if the large majority of NFL evaluators consider him 1st round top 15 talent? That doesn't make sense. I can understand if you make the argument that the Browns can't afford to risk that kind of capital, but he doesn't become 2-3 round talent just because he falls into a category.

So you don't think a GM who wants one of the other 5 QBs won't talk up Allen to make a silly owner want to take him so that a better QB falls in their own lap? This is the season of lies. There is nothing anyone says by any team that can believed. A big arm is not even close to being all that important for an NFL qb. They just need an adequate arm and a monster brain.

Most QBs picked are to some degree considered projects. The only two I’d consider not projects in a long while would have been Luck and P. Manning. And they both struggled to some degree during their rookie seasons. It’s the nature of the position, rarely is a QB truly ready to start day one. Some learn on the fly and do well, others sit and do equally well, others struggle either way. Which makes drafting a QB so difficult cause you draft on what the projection that player could or will be in a couple years. With better coaching.

Every QB this year has questions, Rosen, with the character and injury concerns, Darnold, with all the turnovers and his mechanics, Mayfield, maturity and size, Allen with his accuracy issues, its all about what you project these guys to be in two years. Which one will be considered the best of the bunch in two years.

j/c:

The extremes on this thread are bizarre.

Y'all are crazy. LOL

Article on QB traits and if they’re inherent or attainable, you guys can take from it whatever you want........


http://insidethepylon.com/nfl/2016-nfl-d...s-the-inherent/

Interesting article on scouting college QBs.....


https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication...ys-nfl.amp.html

One that does a small scouting report on the top 5 guys....



http://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2018/story/...eports-pro-fits

You must have missed the Crystal Ball sale .. lol

What if you could get Allan at 4 and take Saquon
Barkley at 1? Is that a crazy thing to do? I think we will lose Crow. So we need a big bruising back. Barkley could be that guy.. Just a thought

I am on the opposite side of most of the film watching experts that live on he Board ( surprise , right ) .. I believe Allen is going to develop into a fine NFL QB .. Running Back ; we need an AFC North big boy for stater's ..

You'd miss out on Minkah. If Allen is their guy, no reason to wait, take him at one, take Minkah or Saquon at four. I think Saquon will be gone by four, but if he's not, and Minkah is there, I'd still take Minkah. I don't see a scenario where we take Saquon unless he's there at four and Minkah is off the board.

JMHO

I like the looks of Johnson / Guice / Michel ... Maybe Love

Love elected to stay in college. I would add Ronald Jones to that list.

To me the big difference between them is that Stafford improved each year he played. Heck, his junior year he was at 61.4%. I don't think this is a valid comparison.

Saw that ; think I will add Kalen Ballage, Arizona State
6-2, 222; as a late rounder ! Like how he preformed in the senior bowl . BOG BOY !

I think they are all raw talent, but I do agree that Allen isn't as far along as some of the others.

I guess it just boils down to who Dorsey thinks will become the best, and then hope he guessed correctly.

As scientific as it seems, there is a degree of luck involved.

The powers that be ( this season ) are in great and tough spot ! .. In my humble opinion there are a HANDFUL of potential good NFL QB's coming out this year . Every Dawg has his own list of say 1 through 10 .. I don't think there is this HUGE difference at this point in 1 through 5 or 6 .. I have a tendency to try and picture what might be , in say three or four years of NFL experience might bring .. To each his own ..lol

The bottom line for Allen is he has a lot of the traits you look for in a QB. You also have to acknowledge the bad. The guy could very well be the best in this draft, or could very well bust( I personally don’t see bust cause the kid is a hard worker).

If you draft this kid you need a plan for him, ideally he sits for a couple years behind a good mentor QB, and learns, works on his footwork, decision making, and pre snap reads. But in today’s NFL that just isn’t realistic. A very good QB coach would be a great plus. We the Browns as of right now do not have that situation in place. The Giants would be his best bet at the top of the draft. If he is rushed I see him not playing much different the Kizer did this year. And I really like his potential so it’s not like me to say that.


Just on a side note to kind of tell you what type of arm this kid really has, he threw what 66.4 mph at the senior bowl, I just saw on YouTube where the NFL network had a mini duel between Derek Carr and Patrick Mahommes(who has a huge arm), Derek’s best was 57 mph and Mahommes was 62, Allen three 66, that’s ridiculous.

Here’s a link to the Carr vs Mahommes video for anyone interested......


http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-to...than-David-Carr

I wonder how fast Elway threw. I remember hearing stories of receivers getting Xs from the points of the balls tattooed on their chests from the velocity of his throws.

The Elway Cross.

If he can throw a football 66.4 MPH, imagine what he could do with a baseball. Kid might be in the wrong sport.