DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2018 NFL Season 2018 NFL Draft Sam Darnold

I was watching Darnold's highlights and he just looks and feels a lot like Josh McCown.

Concerns:
His footwork scares me.
His throwing motion is really really long
He constantly locks his front knee when he goes through his 3 step drop
he is really slow in the pocket... he looks like he is running in mud.
The last thing that really concerns me is how often he jumps when he throws the football.

I think at the end of the season, Hue was 100% done with Kizer. His mind was made up to move on. I think with some time off, Kizer will fall into good grace with Hue again, and Kizer will be our Week 1 starter.

You have to see if Kizer can overcome his rookie troubles. Otherwise, how will you ever truly know if you gave up on a guy prematurely?

You'd think he would have shown consistent improvement at the tail end of the season. He was just so up and down all the way through.

But who knows? Stranger things have happened, I suppose.

There are plenty of garbage QB that could start. Sure. They just wouldn't be much of an improvement over starting our rookie that we would draft at #1 overall. I have no desire to watch some garbage QB play instead of a rookie. Hell if it came to that kind of desepration then just start Kizer and proclaim it as his chance to prove that he can take the next step from his rookie season. I mean hell he might surprise us.

I have had enough of the mason nonsense out there. Sorry but anyone who thinks Mason Rudolph has a weak arm is an idiot. I mean that is just about the stupidest thing I have ever heard. He completes 60 yard passes with double the accuracy of ANY other QB in this draft. PERIOD. He also threw more deep passes than anyone else while keeping that completion percentage up so it's not like he threw a few passes and got lucky. He threw a LOT of deep passes and his accuracy blows everyone else away. It's not even close.

Please just stop with the nonsense. Those same idiot scouts probably thought we shouldn't draft Foles or Jimmy G. like I wanted to.

Mason WILL be the next Big Ben and we will be kicking ourselves yet again for passing him up. The Steelers will be laughing at us again for passing on him as they draft him in round 1.

I don't think Rudolph is an accurate qb. He misses all kinds of throws.

I started watching him last year because he was putting up huge numbers, his excellent size, and his gaudy highlights.

What I saw was a guy who hit a lot of big plays, but missed far too many throws. I was appalled by how many times he was off target.

I don't wish to argue w/Razor or anyone else. I am just reporting what I saw.

Vers, are you going off last years videos only or including this years.

I ask because I watched a lot of his draftbreakdown.com cutups last year because I thought he was going to come out. I had the same impression. He made way too many off target throws..

In the one game I saw this year, his accuracy had significantly improved. Again, just one game so that could have been just a fluke.

jc

You guys are all welcome to disagree with me from your own observations. I only get annoyed at people quoting so called scouts for this program or that. Why? Well, because to be honest I feel I am much better than they are. Most of them are just hacks who are good at sounding important. When you grade their analysis vs actual outcome it's horrible. I think I'm right about 85% of the time on QBs. I mean I am not perfect but I am usually right.

We have plenty of folks on here who have opinions I respect even when we disagree.

Vers the bad games you watched I wonder if some of them were from when he played with a hurt shoulder because he had some bad games right after he came back from that while he was trying to play through the pain. Other than that I think most of his bad throws come from him trying not to throw too hard. It just seems he tries too hard to make the ball a bit softer instead of trying to zing it out there. Perhaps too many of his WR complained he put too much heat on the ball so he tired to adapt. I say that because there are big differences in his ball velocity. You will seem him zing it into tight coverage then throw it soft to drop it in the basket. When he throws soft on medium to short passes are when I see most of those whoops passes. Still even with those few passes that are crazy he has a very high completion percentage so he is not all that inaccurate. When you consider his tremendous deep ball accuracy it more than makes up for it IMHO.

I still like Darnold better and this happens to be the Darnold thread.

Mostly last year. I watched two of his games this year, but it was more of a casual viewing rather than studying him.

Razor, I think you have a good eye for QBs. You were the first to pimp Jimmy G. In fact, you were the one who got me to start studying him.

Don't take my criticism of Rudolph the wrong way. We're all just dudes on a message board talking some football. Not a big deal.

Check out some of his games this year, preferably pre-injury, and let me know if that changes your mind any. It may, it may not. After last years review I was really down on him, but after seeing the one game (part of, not a whole game) this year, he had me rethinking. But with draftbreakdown.com becoming a pay site, I haven't had the chance to see more.

Why do you think draftbreakdown is a pay site now? Anyhow...most of the games you find on their site are on youtube

Last time I went there it was $2/month
Not a lot but the principle.

After your post I went back and it looks like they might have
changed back

j/c

I keep reading articles linking the Browns to Mayfield; Dorsey likes Mayfield, McCoughan prefers Mayfield, Dorsey defends Mayfield... All of which is making me nervous. Mayfield has an NFL future, but I honestly don't believe he is a better choice than Darnold or Rosen. I see him as being in competition with Allen and Jackson as the 3rd best option in this draft.

I'm in the Darnold camp, but only slightly more than Rosen, call it 60/40 or even 55/45.

I'm going Sam with my QB of choice.

Extremely accurate. Many passes were put into some impressive tight windows. His arm, I can't see why he couldn't easily be able to throw every throw. Shows some smart and I see him moving a lot through progressions. I think coaching and not being asked to start right away can really help his mechanics and quickly too.

Oh, and the kid can sling it when he knows he's abut to get leveled. Tough choice with Rosen, Allen both being there and Mayfield lingering, but Sam would be my choice.

Appreciate all who's put something on him in this thread to help a novice QB person and non super college guy out!

Not gonna keep regurgitating the WHY'S as to why we'll take Darnold.

Yet another one of our own, Haley in his PC yesterday mentioned Mental Toughness as a much needed trait in a QB.

That's Darnold. He's like the Energizer Bunny. Regardless of what happens, he keeps coming at you.

I'm looking at this through Dorseys eyes.

Darnold is an excellent ACCURATE QB and is squeeky clean. A LEADER. With excellent Size.

Rosen is an excellent ACCURATE QB with several issues. The shoulder injury. Concussions that should be a MAJOR concern. You just can't predict the future of concussions. And we need to dig really deep on these character concerns. Because like it or not, they ARE concerns. Dig deep. Interview teammates, coaches. Check him HARD about his desire to be a Brown.

Mayfield. That damn CRAP Offense. LACK of SIZE. And you guys in Love with him, like it or not, this Kat has HUGE Character concerns. You CANNOT conduct yourself the way he has and NOT have CONCERNS attached to your name. This is the guy who is 50-50 hit or miss and you just CANNOT risk that with the #1 or #4 pick in ANY draft. I'm SO confident that Dorsey and crew will see this that Mayfield WILL NOT be a Brown. And it has ZERO to do with Manziel.

Allen. GREEN and Consistently Innacurate. No way at 1 or 4.

When this is all said and done, Darnold is the one that will stand out above all the rest.

Take Darnold. He's the PERFECT Face of the Franchise.

Agree w this 100%.

Of all the things I have seen on this board over the years, this is one of the most difficult to comprehend IMO. If you like the guy, then whatever. But to state there are no character concerns is mind-boggling.

We always get to a point where we campaign for our choice of qb, as if it matters to the Browns what the hell we think.

You can sit there and rip Rosen and praise Darnold, but there is a fact out there that you are completely ignoring.

When UCLA and USC played this year, the Trojans had far, far superior talent on every unit but one. UCLA was so outmatched from a talent standpoint that it wasn't very fair.

Yet, the difference in the qb play was immense. Rosen was the one who was making plays w/his arm. He was the one who was accurate. He was the one buying time in the pocket to make yet another clutch throw. He is the one w/good mechanics. He is the one who wasn't falling apart w/his lower body mechanics under pressure. He wasn't the one making dumb ass throws.

Kirk Herbrstreit called that game and repeatedly discussed the difference in the two qbs. He saw the same things I saw.

I don't care if you guys agree w/my analysis. No one changes their minds around here. And I sure as hell know that the Browns don't care what any of us say.

All I know is that I don't want another project. I don't want a little dude who lacks discipline. I don't want to try and make an inaccurate qb accurate. I don't want guys w/all kinds of mechanical issues and who turn it over so much.

I want the qb who is a true qb and isn't some big project. A guy who is accurate and intelligent and has honed his craft far more than any other qb in this draft.

I want Darnold at 1 ... almost verbatim with what whip said ... love Rosen also but the concussions and build make Darnold the clear #1 to me ...

I agree with both of you on Mayfiled in that character is a concern ... i just don’t agree on the level of concern it seems you guys think its at ... I want to explain to u the thought process of someone that sees it differently than u and why .... i hate to see u miffed bro ...

U seem to want to eliminate him from consideration because of them ... i wouldn’t ... actually I’d need to meet him ... have multiple long chats with him ... multiple chats with those close to him including coaches, teachers, fellow students ...

Last year everyone said we didn’t draft Dak cause of the dwi ... i said that was MORONIC ... he was no Johnny Football .. neither is Mayfield ... Johnny Football was a KNOW PARTIER in college .. it wasn’t a well kept secret at all ... Dak was a 5th year senior that stood in school to get his masters and everyone that knew hm said the dwi was WAY OUT OF CHARACTER for him ...

My point being ... EVERY CASE IS DIFFERENT ... Mayfield has 2 major behavioral concerns ... the arrest and the on field antics ... well IMO their no where’s near Johhny Football red flags ...

The grabbing the crotch, throwing the football at dudes head and the other on field antics reek of INMATURITY and a TEMPER ... would i rather not see it ,, ABSOLUTELY NOT ... but its not going to make me sour on the kid .. quite frankly I kinda like the FIRE it shows and the fact the kid got motivated by it ....

The arrest ... was it an out of character, blip on the radar type night that turned into a nightmare or is it who the kid is? .... u need to answer that question just like teams should have last year with Dak .... u do it by getting to know the kid ... talk to those close to him and around him ... is he genuine? Coachable? A bad kid? ... u spend enough time around him and u get a feel ...

At the end of the day ... I like Darnold over him but for what he can do with the football on the field, not the off the field or BS on the field antics ...

Eotab I think after all these many years of chatting you know that I respect your opinions even when we disagree. I strongly disagree with you about Mason though. I think you should go watch more film on him. It's well known he was playing with a lot of pain in his shoulder when he played against Mayfield's much more talented team. Both QBs threw 5 tds and 2 ints. But only one of them had a great game? Does that even make sense? The difference in this game didn't come from the QBs but from the level of talent at WR. Mayfield's WRs made some big moves for plays of the game and thus Marquise Brown - 9 rec - 265 yards - 2 td. Mayfield also got to run one in. Mayfield had an amazing game no doubt about it but to say Mason did not when he threw for just as many TD's is just a little bit unfair especially when you consider he was playing hurt and with not as good a team.

If anything I consider Mason to be the QB most likely to start right away along with Rosen. Although with Rosen I would sit him a year just to give his concussions a chance to heal up more. Rosen would definitely be worth the wait to play it safe IMHO. Most people had Mason as a top candidate coming out of 2016 for becoming a top drafted QB. Then because he decides to play injured all of a sudden he is a second round pick? It's just silly. I'm telling you right now that he will be the next Big Ben but with better human decency.

I don't see any QBs outside of Foles or Cousins who will be free agents that will play better than Donald, Rosen, or Mason. Certainly no QB on the Browns currently which we agree on.

Why do I only mention Darnold, Rosen, and Mason? It's because those are the only ones I am 90% certain will tear the league up. I think they will bring new blood the the NFL and all three will be stars. I want the Browns to end up with one of these three guys if we are drafting at #1. I get that some don't agree with me on Mason. That's OK.

I think Mayfield is very talented too. But I worry about his mental aspect. He has the personality type where he could lose himself learning football and become brilliant like Brees or just as easily get distracted by the limelight and get lost down the darker paths of early fame. To me he is a flip of the coin worth a shot in the mid first round range. Maybe a team has who has had a lot more time with him personally than I have makes the call that his character concerns are no big deal and he goes higher or maybe the let him fall. It's way too hard to say with this kid.

Lamar is a very gifted QB. I like him a lot but he has to clean up his footwork or he won't make it in the NFL. If he fixes it then I think he could be a better version of Vick. I seem him going 20-55 in the draft. If I was a team I'd take him in the first to get that extra 5th year of contract. Then I sit him for a year and do nothing all day but fix his footwork till the changes are second nature.

Allen is just another big arm making people drool. It's fool's gold that some team falls for every year. I don't consider any QB with less than 60% completion percentage as a viable 1 round pick. It is what it is. Just like Kizer, Allen is worth a look in the second round tough.

Thank you for the compliment. I think you have a good eye too even though we tend to look at things with a bit of different flavor overall we both tend to like the same QBs eventually.

Like you said your focus this season was not on Mason and it was a casual watching of a couple of games. I think once you watch of a few seasons of him playing you might yet change your mind and I will leave it at that.

Like you said in a post a bit down the line in this thread. This time of year we all have our own favorites and nothing is really going to change our minds. I don't get offended by it. None of us make a living by watching film for a living so there is only so much time we can put in towards it.

As a small correction, I wasn't the first to pimp JimmyG. I don't remember who it was but it was another poster that brought him up and shared some video of him. After that I went off the deep end researching him and that is when I fell in love with the guy and how he played. I think he is a very unique QB. Like you I like Rosen because he has a somewhat similar playstyle. Rosen is nowhere near as mobile or sneaky though. Still Rosen will go far if concussions don't ruin his career.

I am really rooting for this class of QBs to revive the NFL because it really needs an influx of QB talent. I'm tired of the 5-8 teams with good QBs winning all the time.

LOL - thanks. This made my day.

I get what you're saying, I do. And that's fine.

I don't really see him as a JFF. He has some concerns but they are different than JFF's. I see him as immature, and I am not comfortable with that being the face of this franchise. We are trying to earn respect, and I do not see having someone who is immature, and with a temper (I do agree with you there) being the face of the franchise helping that.

I do realize that wins will get the respect, for sure, but better to do that without someone acting like a jack-hole.

Maybe he grows up once he is in the NFL. For his sake, I hope so.

I was all in on Rosen. Still my preference. But I cannot get over the concussions and the worry that he may need to retire in a couple of years. If he checks out and is the pick at 1, then great. If it's Darnold, then OK.

If it's anyone else ... then I will support them, even if I did not like the pick.

Wasn’t Lamar Jackson also under 60% completion percentage? I would also argue that Allen is equally as gifted as Jackson is, with equally bad footwork that needs to be cleaned up. Not really argue I g with you but both have similar faults and traits.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...k-in-the-draft/



Mayock's evaluations have always been something I take serious than most others.

fair and good question

Allen's problem to me is a combo of lack of vision, touch with passes, and footwork. If you take away his strong arm what do you have left?

Jackson's issue are mostly tied to his footwork. I mean his stance is just so narrow when he throws. The positive for jackson though is the thousand plus yards he gains by rushing. I can lose 3-5 completions per game if it might be balanced out by an extra 90 yards rushing. He is a very rare and true dual threat QB. If his completion % was above 60% then he could possibly be a top 5 pick. But he isn't so there is that risk factor that will mostly likely make him fall to mid or late round in round 1. Some team is going to fall in love with him though so he may go higher than expected.

Both these guys are super nice guys with good character. I wish them both success =) I would love to be proven wrong about allen just because he is such a nice guy.

Allen is such a hard evaluation. He does show good footwork at times and when he does he is very accurate, he also shows he isn’t accurate when he has poor footwork, he also shows good vision and decision making at times and again other times he doesn’t, he again at times shows the ability to take something off the ball and shows really good touch, look at his two TDs in the senior bowl, and other times when he should have used some touch. He runs to much at times imo. He is incredibly good at throwing on the run, throwing into some very tight windows when he does. As for his arm it may not be just a strong arm it may be the strongest in a long time. Not that that means anything. This guys potential is as high as any QB ever. Like I’ve said before you need a plan for him, he needs a year or more to work on his footwork and decision making to help with his accuracy. Sit behind a good bridge QB. Which we do not have right now. His “intangables” seem to be, from what Ive read, very high, or what you’d want from your QB. The low completion percentage doesn’t worry as much as it would most cause I have seen him be accurate when he does do everything right and even when he doesn’t, it’s just a matter of wether or not the bad footwork can be fixed or not. That’s what teams have to answer for themselves.

I would say almost the exact same thing above about Lamar, he doesn’t have as strong an arm but still a very strong arm. He obviously is blessed with better athletism but both are athletic. Lamar will need to sit also, imo. I don’t think he’s ready.


I do t know where either of them get drafted but I’d wager both go in the 1st somewhere. They both have things I like about them just not all in on either of them, but I’m not really all in on any QB this year.

Nothing I disagree with there.

You can sink your teeth into Darnold, Rosen, and Mason though because those three will all end up stars barring injuries. I think they are each different and will succeed in different ways but I am very certain all 3 will be studs.

That is my opinion anyways.

Well, he had Kizer as his top qb last year for most of the year.

I really wanted to forget lol!

I have no idea what the worst teams in the NFL will do on draft day. They are the worst teams for a reason. I can happily look at the last decade of choosing which QB I like or don't like and easily see I pick them right way more than NFL teams do. I know that saying that makes me sound conceited and full of myself but it's also simple fact.

Think back over the many years I have been posting and ask yourself how often has razor been wrong on QBs he gives an endorsement of. The ones I get behind almost always succeed. Granted I don't get behind that many of them but I also don't just pick guys that everyone else is chiming in on. It's always based on my own evaluation and nobody else's.

Where ever he is drafted Mason is going to become a stud. Flat out saying it. I don't care if the worst teams in the nfl with their failure of a scouting departments draft him or not. Hell the Browns never draft the guy I want and also go with the guy I don't want. Where has that gotten them?

Also it's not a fact that there are no teams rating him a top 5 pick. That's your opinion not fact. There is no way for you to know what they think or who they have rated and how. Neither do ANY of this talking heads for sport shows. Even if a team actually said something at this time of year it's as likely to be a lie as the truth.

Nobody has a clue how team are rating any of the players.

I rate Mason as a top tier QB. Where he goes I have no idea other than to say he won't slip past the Steelers if he slides that far.

Based on the past the Browns will draft Allen at #1 because he is a QB I don't want and I will spend my draft fighting down the bile of yet another horrid draft like I always do.

Who knows with Dorsey here we might actually have a competent draft again. I can only hope that Darnold, Rosen, or Mason is the QB we draft. I like you have no control over it and can just hope for the best.

j/c

After watching all the throws in five games (UCLA, Colorado, Arizona State, ND, & Texas), this is what I see:

Big strong with all the tools. Shows toughness blocking and running the ball. Makes all the throws with ease. Deadly over the middle. Doesn’t have a cannon, but can get deep. Puts the ball where the WR can easily catch it. Generally hits receivers in stride. I saw very few passes that were too high or too low, some, but not many. I can see him being able to throw into the tight windows of the NFL. Quick release. Decent footwork. Shows good balance I don’t see an issue with his throwing motion, since when he commits he cocks and throws quickly. He can throw with touch, generally throws with a lot of zip. Can throw on the run. He’s athletic and looks to throw first but will and can run. Runs well on designed runs. Not lightning fast but is elusive in and coming out of the pocket. Generally protects the ball well. I don’t know how good their o-line is, but he seemed to be under pressure a lot, and made plays out of the pocket, but plays best in the pocket. I saw several passes that should have been caught that weren’t. Scans the field well when he doesn’t go to his first read. Able to make something out of nothing. Able to [censored], reset, and find a secondary receiver. Of the INTs I saw, several were deflected off the hands of the receivers. I saw two thrown high, and one to a LB that shouldn’t have been thrown. But overall, very few blatant mistakes. I do like Rosen but I would have no problem taking Darnold number one and never looking back.

Bone I have always respected your opinions even as far back as the official forums. The one poster I miss the most is probably overtoad. I always enjoyed it when he did his analysis.

The only QB that has really surpassed what I thought he would do was deshaun watson. It will be interesting to see how he bounce back from injury. Teddy and Luck too. Injuries can end the careers of even the best.