DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Joe Thomas Remains Undecided About Future|

Yep.

Brett Farve - Holds the NFL record for most career interceptions. He had absolutely no touch on his passes.

Phil Simms - Was horrible in the first half of his career. He was benched by Parcells and eventually improved his accuracy.

Jim Kelly - 175 interceptions in his 11 years in the NFL and another 45 interceptions in the USFL.

Eli Manning - 228 interceptions in 14 years.

Now all of these QB's did improve their accuracy as time went on, but that is only because the team they were with stuck with them long enough to do so. Actually Farve's first team didn't, but his second team did.

I'm not convinced you can use interceptions as the standard for grading inaccuracy.

I agree. Sure, some might have been airmailed over a receiver to a safety, but interceptions aren't a good measure.

BTW you might find this very interesting

https://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/29/brett-favre-and-the-interception-myth/

Not convinced? .. how about its a JOKE ...

His post is a perfect example of why ... STATS ARE FOR LOSERS ...

Favre is the career interception leader ... hes also THROWN MORE PASSES THAN ANYONE ELSE IN THE HISTORY OF THE LEAGUE ...

Favre picks weren’t because of innacuracy or no touch he was what they call a RIVER BOAT GAMBLER ... river boats gamblers aren’t known for their DECISION MAKING SKILLS ... Favre would throw the ball into a CLOSED WINDOW multiple times per game ... ...

AND having no touch is not the same thing as being innacurate ... a lot of his picks hit his recievers right in their hands ... theyjust bounced offthem ... *L* ...

By using picks as the criteria for accuracy that would mean Dan Marino, Drew Brees and Eli’s brother Payton were innacuratte .. throw Dan Fouts in there for good measure ....

Using picks as the measurement for being innacurate is a JOKE!!!!

There are also many times when completion percentage isn't a great indicator, as well. Especially in the college game.

J/C

I have always been fascinated by the fact that Hall of Famer Joe Namath threw more interceptions than TDs in his career. Not sure that it means anything, but I think it's interesting.

I can always count on Diam with his "stats are for losers" quote. Which translates to "math is tough for me".

Yes, I've watched each of these guys play.

Completion percentage is probably the biggest indicator of an inaccurate QB but that number can lie when you have poor WR's that drop passes.

These guys were throwing to Antonio Freeman, Sterling Sharpe, Donald Driver, Robert Brooks, Mark Bavaro, Ray Perkins, Bobby Johnson, Ernest Gray, Lionel Manuel, Andre Reed, Pete Metzelaars, Chris Burkett, Thurman Thomas, James Lofton, Don Beebe, Plexico Burress, Amani Toomer, Steve Smith, Hakeem Nicks, Mario Manningham,Victor Cruz, Odell Beckham Jr, and about 20 good WR's that I can't think of right now, so I don't think that was a problem.

Throwing INT's is another indicator of an innaccurate QB. Sometimes those INT's happen because WR's run the wrong routes, but again look at the WR's named above.

An accurate QB throws a ball that his WR's can catch. It's about that simple. He leads his WR well, throws with touch, and doesn't throw into traffic.

Watch any of the above QB's in the first half of their careers and tell me if you see that. All of these QB's improved during their careers and proved why you don't totally write off QB prospects with accuracy issues.

Yes Diam, Brett Favre threw more passes than most QB's but he still has more interceptions than games played. (336 interceptions in 306 games played) Tell me if you think a QB that you know is going to throw at least one interception in every game is one that you consider accurate. I also agree with you that Brett liked to thread the needle and with whoever said that he threw a ball too hard for his WR's, but those still amount to passes that the WR's can't catch. A completed pass is kind of the whole point isn't it?

Which makes no f-in sense because winners are defined by them. It's simplistic drivel bandied about as an accepted part of the zeitgeist.

Joe Thomas lobbies Kirk Cousins to consider Browns

By Marc Sessler
Around the NFL Writer
Published: Feb. 15, 2018 at 09:57 a.m.

Scheduled to hit the open market next month, free-agent quarterback Kirk Cousins is set to become the subject of a massive bidding war for his services.

Browns bookend Joe Thomas wants to put that contest to bed before it starts.

Responding to a Tuesday tweet from Cousins, in which the former Redskins passer said he and his family we're "interested in hearing where the best spot is for us," Thomas made his pitch:

"I hear Cleveland is nice this time of year," wrote the All-Pro tackle, "that is, if you'd like to have a statue someday..."

Thomas went on to tout Cleveland as the perfect landing spot to become an instant hero and, incidentally, very, very rich.

"You could make MORE money and MORE history in Cleveland than anywhere else, by FAR," Thomas wrote. "Don't just go and be another quarterback somewhere else!"

Cleveland leads the league with an outrageous $110 million-plus in cap room, more than enough to make Cousins the highest paid quarterback -- and player -- in NFL history. Signing him would also allow the Browns to use the first- and fourth-overall picks on the best player available.

Cousins, though, possesses a power rare to franchise quarterbacks: choice.

The money will be there from multiple suitors in today's cap-rich NFL. If you're Cousins, a team like the Broncos -- still armed with a star-studded defense -- or the ultra-complete Vikings make for juicy landing spots.

The Cardinals and Jets also make sense, but Thomas has a point about the Browns: Taking over a winless team and guiding them to January play would turn Cousins into a hero of messianic proportions in Cleveland, a city that's seen a thousand faceless quarterbacks author folly and defeat.

It's a job for dreamers, coming after two decades worth of nightmares in Northeast Ohio.

Link

I love Joe. I'd love him more if he'd keep his mouth closed and stay off Twitter on issues like this.

I love Joe Thomas. I consume all the media he is on. When he got hurt last year I was very sad.

Who he wants at QB means almost nothing to me for a couple of reasons.

1. He is only going to play a few more seasons. Of course he would want the quick fix at QB instead of the long term play.

2. Historically he has been terrible at evaluating who the best QB for the team.

I wonder if he's coming back, and IMO, doubt he will. He has no dog in the fight, in my view, and that's why I wish he'd keep his rhetoric to himself.

I'm all in with Joe Thomas.

As I've said before, I don't know how people are against a young, pro-bowl quarterback who has averaged 4,392 passing yards over the last three years, with 67% passes completed and 27 TD to 12 touchdowns.

I can't figure out how that's not something we should be coveting. That's incredible production. He's like top 5 over the last three seasons, and a quarterback doesn't accidently produce 1,600 passes of awesomeness.

It's such a Cleveland thing. A star QB hits the market, he's young and we're in the best position to sign him, but a lot of the fans have decided he's not good enough and one of the questionable QB prospects, none of whom can really separate themselves from the rest of the class, might be a Tom Brady.

It seems so exciting, in my opinion. Sign Cousins (Franchise QB) and Joyner (Star FS, PFF's #3 S, familiar with Gregg Williams), draft Barkley and do whatever with the #4 pick depending who is still on the board. It could be any number of incredible players, or even a slight trade down before still adding some top talent.

I can't blame Thomas for being excited. Cousins with the best OL he's ever had, Gordon/Johnson/Njoku, Todd Haley's awesome system which fits Cousins really well, an ascending young defense fronted by an impressive young front seven.

I'm all in. Go get Cousins. Also - when Roethlisberger retires in a year or two, we'll already have the best QB in the AFC North. Set up for long term success as well as immediate returns.

Pitch, Joe, pitch!

I've been slowly coming around to point #2. I think he's given his official endorsement to every goofball we've pushed out there under center.


That said, this offseason he's doing something a little different. He's made a pass at just about every single legit FA option at QB (Brees, Cousins, Smith(??)). The takeaway that I can see from his tweets is that he wants a legit vet QB. Not a McCarron, maybe not even a McCown. A Brees or a Cousins.

I know you like his stats, a lot of people do. I don't like 4-12, 9-7, 8-7-1, and 7-9, with one wildcard playoff appearance that was lost handily. I'm with McCloughan, I don't see special. Particularly since they've "been building a team around him to make him special." It's not a Browns thing, it's simply my opinion. And, of course, you're entitled to yours. But I will absolutely hate it if we sign this guy to a long contract, making him the highest paid player in the league, at the expense of drafting a QB #1 overall. That would be the "Browns thing" to do.

A pox on you and your family for talking bad about Joe lol

Pains me to do it, bro. Pains me to do it.

This is something often overlooked, or perhaps more appropriate, the refusal to accept.

He's shown the talent evaluating acumen of a Tony Rizzo.

Ok Otis ... its a real shame Andy put a puter in the jail for u ... he prolly don’t ever come here or i’m Sure he’d remove it toot sweet ... ...

If u think throwing a lot of int’s makes u innacurate ... thats your perogative ... like i said ..

Marino, Brees, Payton and dan Fouts ... THERE AMONG THE MOST INNACURATE OF ALL TIME ... ..

U keep digging in with this stance Otis ... u just earn your name big time in this case ...

Some folks can’t handle 1 + 1 = 2 .. u been around long enough to know what I mean ..... if u can’t figure it out and if thats what u think .. were gonna have to back it up to 0 + 0 = 0 for u ... and thats sad ... ...

Yeah, the losing. Terrible.

Like that playoff fame that Cousins "handily lost." He only put 329 yards on Green Bay with two touchdowns. He out-performed Aaron Rodgers that game (by over 100 yards, same touchdowns, 5% better completion percentage, neither threw picks) but Washington's woeful defense allowed 35 points.

Obviously, it was a Cousins issue.

And the same could be said for many of their losing performances over the last three years. Last year losing to New Orleans in spite of a 322 yard, 3 TD effort. The following week losing to Minnesota in spite of a 330 yard, 3 TD effort. They lost to Philly in spite of a, you guessed it, 300 yard, 3 TD effort.

In fact, in Washington's nine losses last year, it came following the other team putting up 30 points seven of those games. The other two, 29 and 18. 18 being, really, the lone awful performance from Cousins all year.

The same is true in 2016. That included a loss to Dallas in spite of Cousins putting up 449 yards and 3 TD. Carolina on 315 yard performance. Arizona on 271 yards and 2 TD. Dallas again on 364 yards and a TD.

I could go on and on - but Washington was simply an awful team. They paid the price on trading away their future for RG3 and couldn't add the talent they needed.

Personally, I consider losing to be a team number. This is especially true when you have a quarterback performing at an extremely high level. It's easy to lose without a quarterback - but losing with one? Terrible.

Cousins had his share of struggling performances, but there is a reason that most people like his numbers. The kid puts up touchdowns and yards like crazy. For the most part, that has been in vain.

Some teams get it. New Orleans is fresh off a bunch of losing seasons, finally giving Brees the team he needed. They were not the only punching bag - the fluctuation in that division between Ryan (From losing to Superbowl) and Newton (From Superbowl to losing) is quite remarkable.

I agree with McCloughan that Cousins isn't special. He needs a team around him. But so does everyone. Brees, Newton and Ryan, as mentioned, have all been to Superbowls and all had losing seasons. Aaron Rodgers and Andrew Luck, for all their incredible ability, play for teams that consistently fail to put a team around them and consistently come up short in the playoffs as a result. Rodgers, on a better team, might be pushing Brady for the most rings - instead he has only one.

The only quarterback who truly is special, is Tom Brady. Doesn't seem to matter who they draft, who gets injured or who leaves in free agency. They keep winning. Every other quarterback, whoever, is largely dependant on their who is around them.

What often gets lost, that's exactly the point McCloughan was making. He wasn't saying Cousins was no good or isn't a franchise quarterback, just pointing out the obvious - he's not special enough to win without a team, and he hasn't played for a complete team.

Personally, I'd rather see the Browns start trying to put a team around a high-end quarterback than hold out hope on the Browns finding a quarterback who doesn't need a team around him - in my lifetime, there has only been one of them, and he also happened to be the most unexpected QB in NFL history who is paired with the greatest coach in NFL history.

Passing on the best quarterback available for a high-risk selection is the Cleveland thing to do.

PS. U forgot that just this past year .... at one point ... his STARTING OL consisted of 4 different starters from the week before (all downgrades ... not starters coming back) and 2 of them were picked up ON MONDAY OF THE WEEK THEY STARTED ON SUNDAY ...

That was pretty much the story of his OL the entire year ... different combos EVERY WEEK and each one worse than the last ...

ALSO U may have wanted to add that he lost his top 2 WR’s this last offseason in Garçon and Jackson and his STUD TE Jordan Reed missed more games than he played in if i recall correctly ...

Yup ... Cousins record stunk this last year ... so he must STINK ... who cares the D stunk and so did his supporting cast on O ....... cause after all record is a STAT correct Cal? ... yup ... STATS ARE FOR WINNERS CAUSE THEY TELL THE ENTIRE STORY ... ...

Diam,

In all of the "this and that are for losers" excitement, I don't remember where you actually stand on Cousins. I'd love to know (or be reminded, if that's the case).

If only given yes/no options regarding if I'm on "Team Stats", I would have to say yes. Stats can be good for helping to paint the picture and understand. Stats can also be misused to intentionally paint an inaccurate picture, and stats will always need help to complete the picture being painted.

For example... Cousins. He put up awesome stats in big games that were ultimately lost. Why is that? His yardage and # of TD's start to paint a picture, but ultimately you have to see what happened in each game to really figure it out. Does he tend to throw the late pick? Does he do all his damage in the first half, and then gets whooped when the going gets tough later in the game?

re: Accuracy
Completion percentage is great and all, but does he put the ball in a position where the receiver can turn it into YAC? Maybe a combo of completion% and YAC (average YAC per throw or per completion or something like that) would be helpful.

Just my .02

Joe is tired of losing. He wants a good QB cuz his window is small. He's earned enough clout IMO

Should somebody whose window is small be the person that is listened to when trying to make long term decisions?

In this case, yes. Plus, I'd be happy with KC because he would give us a much better chance to be decent in 2018.

I guarantee you we sign Cousins other FA will flock to us.

Joe is being smart about it and doing his best to make it happen so he can go out on top WITH the Browns.

Joe has never evaluated publically a Browns QB. He just tows the company line and supports whoever he is blocking for. He does his best to keep the message positive. Please don't confuse that with his real opinion.

I like Cousins .. but not no where’s near as much as he’s going to get paid ... i would much rather take Darnold or Rosen or maybe even Mayfield at #1 then sign Cousins ...

One of my best friends is a skins fan ... he asked me the day of the draft who did better ... them with RG3 or us with JFF .... i told him i liked Cousins more than both of them ... i’ve Had LOTS OF MISSES but not that one ... *L* ...

One of the reasons i like McCarron as a bridge guy is we don’t have to pretty much guarantee him a starting job ... just a SHOT AT IT ... he’s also won some games and has been in the league 3 or 4 years ...

That gives u legite chance to see how much Kizer’s improved and also gives the rook a chance if he’s the best QB ...

U know ... the last 2 years have been beyond rough ... BRUTAL ... but man ... were sitting in the catbirds seat now .... we have the #1 and 4 pick with 2 if not 3 legite QB’s to choose from ... Cousins is about as good a QB your ever going to see in FA ... there’s going to possibly be 3 or 4 “decent” stop gap vets like Bradford, Bridgewater, Keenum, MCcown or possibly a few more ...

We have LOADS OF OPTIONS and there REALLY GOOD OPTIONS ...

At 4 we can get the best DB to come out in years or a RB most think is going to be elite (i’m Not one of them) ...

but MAN OH MAN ...

OPTIONS OUT THE YING YANG!!!!

This wasn't directed at you specifically, more about the comment itself. But you do tend to trot it out whenever someone uses stats in a way you don't agree with or contradicts your opinions. That's sad too.

But we know that's how you roll and we've come to accept it because you're a respected member of this board.

Holy cow! you've completely changed my mind. Actually, your post was too long to read. But I respect your opinion.

He has earned it here in The Land. He should stay. Retire a Brown or play. He could cheapen some of that going elsewhere and missing out, I mean what with his tiny window. Here, all I see out the window is HOF for him. This decision is about ability and willingness to play, but it mutated into this play for strangers thang.

He has been special because of unbelievable dedication, work, and achievement. Turning your back on those and the love given back for the charity work and such would lower one of the highest bars in my book. These define his career; it is called Hall of Fame for many reasons. Just MO.

Fair enough re: your take on Cousins.


IMO, the thing that's real tempting about getting him is not just plugging him in at the starting QB spot, but it has more to do with freeing up picks to get another blue-chip talent.
I keep thinking back to the Joe Haden draft. I remember when it came to our spot, we were kinda stuck. Joe was there, but everyone else was taken (IIRC there was Suh(?), Eric Berry the safety, and a QB). All the big big guys were taken in the picks before us, and Joe wasn't really the sexy pick, but there wasn't really anyone else to take. This draft isn't like that. We're going to have our pick of the litter not only at 1, but probably also at 4 (with the QB class being what it is).

Whole lotta class in this post.

Dem stats is complicated!

So Hue should have no say?

On a more serious note, I think these rumblings by Joe are a clear signal he isn't going to be a happy camper if we don't try hard for Cousins. If we just make a half ass attempt, I think Joe is done as a player. I don't think he has any interest in putting the pads back on to go out and win 3-4 games. He is in the win now mode.

Honestly, I kind of feel like Joe just wants a fishing and BBQ buddy at QB.

https://www.gq.com/story/kirk-cousins-washington-redskins-profile