DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Special counsel issues indictment against 13 Russian nationals over 2016 election interference

My question was; Show me where obstruction was the initial angle...I'll wait.

I said collusion is dead now lets move on to obstruction.

What the Mueller investigation has shown is that before 2014 a plan was hatched by Oligarchs in Russia in conjunction with Putin to sow discord in the United States. They spent millions in this effort. Russian spies infiltrated America with fake identification and opened bank accounts. They worked their way into our system and set up shop.

This occurred before Trump even decided to Run for office.
Their goal was to drive everyone into separate camps in order to pit the American people against each other. They set up rallies and pumped out millions of dollars worth of Facebook ads. Most of these ads were placed after the election.

They know America is a pluralistic society made up of many different kinds of people. They sought to drive a wedge between us all.

They had great success. Just look at America today. We are divided. We are in upheaval. We are fighting among ourselves on a whole host of different topics.

The only way America can survive and be strong is if we remember, E pluribus unum, Out of Many, One!

It is time to end this successful spy mission and attack by our enemies. This far and no further!

It is time to stop attacking each other while obeying our Russian Masters.

It is time to stop aiding and abetting our enemies.

It is time to come together again as the American People.

E pluribus unum!

this is rich, seeing as not even a couple years ago, you and others were slobbering all over Putin calling him a great leader.

yall took Putin over our own president obama.

and now putin did this to our election cycle, and now has a puppet inside the oval.

thats on you and the other 60 mill that voted for trump.

Hard to say this:



And still be a hardcore Trumpian. Come to the good side of the force OB1-40... er Yoda40.

“Everytime I talk to Putin, he tells me that the Russians had nothing to do with our elections, and I believe him”. Donald Trump.

Yep. They thought Putin was a strong leader despite losing the Ukraine and almost Syria, Well, now they have elected him.

YES !! We have progress. According to Trump and many of his minions, before the investigation started, they said Russia didn't interfere. Pres said so so it must be true.

SO .... now we're starting from a point of agreement. It was Russia, they did interfere.

Now - the Mueller investigation is FAR FAR FAR from over. The next step is to see if during the process of trying to undermine our election ... did ANYONE collude with the Russians? Democrats, Republicans or any other American from any walk of life.... And then after that Mueller will determine if anyone tried to prevent or change the direction of the investigation (obstruction of justice).

I had a long discussion with a friend and Trump supporter Friday night . . . his opinion was that after this much time, if Mueller has anything on Trump he needs to show it. He needs to justify the investigation.... Tip his hand to pacify the Trump supporters and justify the ongoing investigation. My view is that is a total nonsense. Investigations take time - and Mueller wants and needs to build any case against whichever individuals are in his cross hairs and not give anything away before he has the evidence and concrete evidence of whatever it is.... If there are 20 potential witnesses to turn and corroborate something. Don't tip your hand after the first is on record, or the second or the third. Exhaust every avenue, build your case and then when Mueller is ready and only then, does he reveal what he has or does not have.

All this talk of there being no proof of collusion .... yet ... that's exactly the point. Yet. It's a gigantic caveat that comes at the end of any discussion about Mueller and his findings.

Regarding resources and the cost of the investigation - that also got mentioned by my friend and then Trump tweeted about it in his rant about Parkland ... it seems the investigation has cost about $7 million so far. That's less than 3 of Trumps visits to play golf at his Mar a Go FL location ... he had many more that that in 2017.... personally I think the money spent on the investigation is way more appropriate than the money for Trump to be away from the WH. Something (another alternate fact) he said he'd rarely do before he was actually elected!

I disagree, most of us said there was NO COLLUSION. I finished a lot of my posts with, collusion my ass!



Agree, this is why I said making the statement ' No American....' should not have been made unless he's 100% sure and DONE with this part of the investigation. He indicted 13 Russians. If there is a possibility of more that are involved, IMO, wait to charge them ALL at the same time. Talk about showing your hand, you just gave others that are involved to take a page from Hillary's handbook.

You can't say to Trump supporters we're not going to show our hand yet but reveal this stupid, worthless indictment and then look for more involved.



I don't like this either but not taking a salary and all the money he's saving us like the cost of new AF1 and other military planes for example kinda makes it a wash.

Collusion is DEAD (except by the Dems), move on to obstruction. When that falls apart, see if he got a BJ in the oval office by an intern.

Well it'd be the best outcome for the USA as a nation if your scenario plays out!! But in my heart I don't think that's going to happen. There are too many issues with all the Trump posse from lying about who they met with and what they talked about, to knowing about issues with Flynn's security status, to telling foreign visitors that you got rid of one of your problems by firing him, to asking the Russians to reveal the Clinton emails ... we'll see. And I saw your comment on Putin and keeping your enemies closer and that you think Trump is playing Putin ... and while I love the concept, I personally think Trump is an egotistical bully who doesn't stand a chance in any mind games with the an ex senior member of the KGB.

And I see the usual cast of characters wish to continue the divide and serve their Russian masters in this attack.

Aiding and Abetting the enemy is not the American way.

Shame!

Once a plea deal is in place, Gates would become yet another known cooperator in Mueller's sprawling probe into Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election.
It would also increase the pressure to cooperate on Gates' co-defendant Paul Manafort, Trump's former campaign chairman, who has pleaded not guilty to Mueller's indictment and is preparing for a trial on alleged financial crimes unrelated to the campaign. Gates pleaded not guilty on October 30 alongside Manafort.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/18/politics/gates-manafort-plea-deal/index.html

Mueller got gates to testify against Manafort.

Boy oh boy, if Manafort gets a deal it looks bad for Trump. I think Mueller already had Manafort and Gates dead to rights, this deal is all about the Trump campaign and admin, but who remains to be revealed.

Remember when trump and trump Jr insisted that no one within the campaign had contacts with the Russians?

Lol.

Yes but they forgot all those meetings and remembered after everyone found out about them so they are all good, right? I mean in Trump we Trust... He would never lie to us or mislead us for personal reasons, right?

Yawn

My name is not Yawn, Sneer.

The article I posted was in May last year when Mueller was appointed. In it obstruction was mentioned. But frankly getting caught up in what the investigation was about initially is meaningless. What will matter in the end is what is found at the end.



If obstruction is there then a crime was committed (collusion or otherwise.) I'm not aware of how someone can obstruct justice without a crime being committed. We are also being fed breadcrumbs at this time, so we shouldn't assume anything is done and over with.

Even members of the white house (McMaster) state the evidence of meddling is incontrovertible. This is not collusion however unless the Trump campaign utilized this Russian meddling. I doubt Mueller will state one way or another if he thinks so until the investigation is nearly at an end.

That's the "genius" that is the Trump supporters .... they state a position, that position is exposed as false - or a lie - or an alternate fact ... take your pick. So they come up with a new position and say, so the first position didn't matter ... it was an oversight, Trump was not a politician, he didn;t know, it was a chaotic campaign .... then the next position is exposed as false or inaccurate ... and so they then say, yeah, but that was a technicality, it doesn't matter and hey look at Clinton, she's much worse.

Eventually there will (possibly/probably) be proof that Trump broke laws and tried to obstruct ongoing investigations and direct investigations and people who he has/had zero authority or business trying to control .... and the argument will be, so what, did the Russians and the interference and the obstruction change the course and result of the election.

As of right now the single worst aspect of all of this denial by Trump and the WH - and Trump's massive ego - America is under attack using modern technology to undermine confidence in the system and our Democracy .... and Trump isn't saying or going enough to prevent it from happening and trying to prevent it moving forward.

jc

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/19/trump-russia-pardons-mueller-flynn-417094

Conservatives urge Trump to grant pardons in Russia probe
As special counsel Robert Mueller builds his case, relatives of former national security adviser Michael Flynn are among those pressing the president to use his unique legal power and 'put these defendants out of their misery.'

By DARREN SAMUELSOHN 02/19/2018 07:16 AM EST
Retired Gen. Michael Flynn, left, introduces Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump at a campaign rally, Thursday, Sept. 29, 2016, in Bedford, N.H. (AP Photo/John Locher)
Former national security adviser Michael Flynn and President Donald Trump are pictured during the presidential campaign in New Hampshire in September 2016. At least two Republican senators have urged Trump not to pardon him. | AP Photo

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After months of criticizing special counsel Robert Mueller’s Russia probe, President Donald Trump’s supporters are issuing increasingly bold calls for presidential pardons to limit the investigation’s impact.

“I think he should be pardoning anybody who’s been indicted and make it clear that anybody else who gets indicted would be pardoned immediately,” said Frederick Fleitz, a former CIA analyst and senior vice president at the conservative Center for Security Policy.

The pleas for mercy mainly extend to the four former Trump aides who have already been swept up in the Russia probe: former campaign manager Paul Manafort, former deputy campaign manager Rick Gates, former national security adviser Michael Flynn and former campaign foreign policy adviser George Papadopoulos. But they don’t stop there.

“It’s kind of cruel what’s going on right now and the president should put these defendants out of their misery,” said Larry Klayman, a conservative legal activist. “I think he should pardon everybody — and pardon himself.”

Klayman and Fleitz spoke before Mueller indicted thirteen Russian nationals on Friday for staging an elaborate 2016 election interference operation in the United States. Democratic leaders said the hard evidence of Russian meddling underscores the importance of letting Mueller’s investigation run its course.

But many conservatives note that the new indictment shows no evidence of collusion between Trump associates and the Kremlin. That reinforces their view that Mueller’s real target, if any, should be Russian President Vladimir Putin — not Trump’s circle. “[H]ow long will the leftist witch hunt against @RealDonaldTrump continue,” the president’s son, Donald Trump Jr., tweeted hours after the indictment’s release.

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And while the latest indictment could make it harder than ever for Trump to fire Mueller, as he has sought to before, mass pardons would be another means of defying the special counsel.

A president has the Constitutional power to pardon any citizen convicted of a federal crime, ending any prison sentence and clearing his or her record with the stroke of a pen. Pardons face no judicial or Congressional review, and the president is not obliged to explain his decision. The act of a president pardoning himself, however, has never been tested.

Some Democrats are taking all the possibilities seriously.

“Doling out presidential pardons to try to cover up any collusion or obstruction of justice is unacceptable and will be met with furious resistance across the country,” Patty Murray, the third-ranking Democrat in the Senate, said during a floor speech earlier this month.

Last fall, several dozen House Democrats co-sponsored a largely symbolic resolution expressing disapproval for the prospect of Trump pardoning himself or any of his family members. They’ve also been asking without success for Judiciary Committee oversight hearings on the issue.

So far, the talk of pardons has mostly centered around Flynn, whose clemency Trump did not rule out in a brief mid-December exchange with reporters. “I don’t want to talk about pardons with Michael Flynn yet. We’ll see what happens,” Trump said.

That “yet” was music to the ears of Flynn’s supporters and family members, many of whom have taken to social media to build support for pardoning the retired Army lieutenant general who pleaded guilty in December to Mueller’s team for lying to the FBI.

“About time you pardoned General Flynn who has taken the biggest fall for all of you given the illegitimacy of this confessed crime in the wake of all this corruption,” Flynn’s brother, Joseph Flynn, wrote in a mid-December tweet. “Pardon Flynn NOW!” he added in a later message.

During a video interview with the prominent alt-right activist Jack Posobiec at the Trump International Hotel in Washington D.C., last week, Flynn’s outspoken adult son, Michael Flynn Jr., encouraged viewers to promote online messages calling for his father’s exoneration and pardon.

“Just keep pushing out those hashtags, the ‘#ClearFlynnNow’ and the ‘#PardonFlynnNow,” Flynn Jr., said.

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Tom Fitton, president of the conservative activist group Judicial Watch, said that allegations of anti-Trump bias among Justice Department and FBI officials circulated by conservatives would justify granting clemency to Trump associates like Flynn.

“The whole super structure of the Russia investigation is compromised,” Fitton said. “Those caught up in it deserve some protection. Rather than just let the virus run its course, it’d be appropriate for the president to consider pardons for people who are caught up in the prosecution.”

Trump’s lawyers and aides insist it’s premature to discuss even the possibility of pardons. “There have been no pardon discussions at the White House,” Ty Cobb, the White House attorney who leads the president’s official response to the Russia investigation, told POLITICO on Friday just hours before Mueller’s latest indictment was released.

After the Washington Post reported in July that Trump had tasked his aides with researching his pardon powers, Trump dismissed the story — while also making clear his view of the law.

“While all agree the U. S. President has the complete power to pardon, why think of that when only crime so far is LEAKS against us. FAKE NEWS,” Trump tweeted.

Attorneys for Flynn, Flynn Jr. and Gates declined comment. Lawyers for Manafort and Papadopoulos did not respond to requests for comment.

Presidential pardons or other acts of mercy can be highly controversial — and typically occur at the end of a president’s term.

President Barack Obama was criticized for commuting the 35-year prison sentence of Army Pvt. Chelsea Manning, who was convicted of leaking hundreds of thousands of sensitive diplomatic cables and military reports to WikiLeaks.

Siding against his own vice president, President George W. Bush denied a pardon for former White House staffer I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby, who was convicted for obstructing a federal investigation into the leaked identity of a CIA operative, though Bush did commute Libby’s prison sentence.

Perhaps most famously, in September 1974, President Gerald Ford pre-emptively pardoned the man he replaced in the Oval Office, Richard Nixon, who resigned rather than face impeachment over the Watergate scandal. Nixon had also stepped down just days after an opinion from his acting attorney general, Mary C. Lawton, found that “under the fundamental rule that no one may be a judge in his own case, the President cannot pardon himself.”

Explaining the Nixon pardon, Ford cited a need for the country to avoid “prolonged and divisive debate” that would accompany the criminal trial of the former Republican president that many expected. He also decreed that his pardon would cover all federal crimes that Nixon "committed or may have committed or taken part in” as president.

Critics were furious at the move, which a New York Times editorial declared a "profoundly unwise, divisive, and unjust act.”

A federal district court rejected a constitutional challenge to Ford’s pardon the next year, citing an 1867 Supreme Court decision during the Andrew Johnson administration which held that presidents have “unlimited” pardoning power. “It extends to every offense known to the law, and may be exercised at any time after its commission, either before legal proceedings are taken, or during their pendency, or after conviction and judgment,” the justice writing for the 5-4 majority wrote.

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Some conservatives want Trump to heed those words. In an Oct. 29 Wall Street Journal op-ed column — published on the eve of Mueller’s first indictments against Manafort and Gates and the release of the Papadopoulos guilty plea — two conservative lawyers called on Trump to “end this madness by immediately issuing a blanket presidential pardon to anyone involved in supposed collusion with Russia or Russians during the 2016 presidential campaign… and to anyone for any offense that has been investigated by Mr. Mueller’s office.”

“The president himself would be covered by the blanket pardon we recommend,” wrote the lawyers, David B. Rivkin Jr. and Lee A. Casey, veterans of the White House counsel’s office and Justice Department in the Reagan and George H.W. Bush administrations. They argued that Russian election interference is a matter for a Congressional investigation, not a criminal one.

At a mid-November hearing of the House Judiciary Committee, Rep. Ted Deutch (D-Fla.) grilled Attorney General Jeff Sessions on whether he thinks Trump can pardon former aides and family members even before they might be convicted of — or even charged with — crimes. Sessions declined to answer beyond saying that “the president has the power to pardon, no doubt about that.”

"We should be worried if you are telling us the president should be able to pardon in advance all of those being investigated," Deutch replied.

Trump has issued one pardon since taking office, to the controversial Arizona Sheriff Joe Arpaio, who was facing criminal contempt of court charges for defying a court order to stop profiling Latinos.

That August action, in the face of strong political opposition, makes some conservatives think that Trump would be willing to defy his critics again. “He did it for Sheriff Joe, so I’m thinking he would do it for other circumstances as well,” Fitton said.

There has been little sign of Congressional Republican support for the idea of pardons. In the days after Flynn pleaded guilty, South Carolina Senators Lindsey Graham and Tim Scott both urged Trump not to pardon Flynn. Scott said it is important to have accountability and “a process that is clear and transparent.”

Pardons would also come at a high political cost, former George W. Bush White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said. “It’d just raise even more questions about Donald Trump if he pardons those closest to him because people will think he’s trying to protect himself.”

“You should let justice run its course,” he added.

Even some conservatives who support pardons in principle are wary of the severe political backlash they are certain to trigger. Mike Cernovich, a prominent alt-right activist, said he believes the moment for pardons has passed and that Trump needs to wait until after the November mid-term elections.

“If the Democrats take over, pardon everyone,” Cernovich said. “They’re coming for you anyway. They have their nuke with impeachment. You have your nuke with pardons. And then settle in for an interesting two years.”

Trump should pardon them all, best thing he could do for the left and the country! It would seal his impeachment.

"The best thing for our country would be a Pence President" -- A self-described liberal

Actually that's what I don't understand about people wanting Trump impeached. IMO Trump is revolting enough and now that he's shown all of his true colors could be defeated in the 2020 elections. Let's face it, had the Dems ran another candidate they would have won. Hillary was a terrible choice.

Pence is a much better speaker and far more civil. He would be a much tougher candidate for the Dems to have to face in 2020 than Trump. Pence is actually a Republican.

Pence is also competent. It doesn't take him 5 infrastructure weeks to get a plan together.

I bet you said that as well when Obama was using Executive Orders.

J/C

Is it me, or does anyone else find it disturbing the FBI can find 13 Facebook Trolls from 4 years ago, but cannot find the time to do something about the kid that shot up the school after several tips, fb photos, Instagram photos, various people reporting he was mentally ill, etc??

They're all looking for Russians.

No.

Because the moment the FBI acted on those tips, but the kid didn’t commit actual crimes, you would’ve been the first one saying they violated his 1st amendment rights.

It’s easier for the feds to catch Russians because the constitution doesn’t protect them.

It’s protects psycho American gun nuts, though.

Well ... between all the texts between FBI employees and them wasting countless man hours on the trump-russian collusion its amazing they get anything done ...

I mean ... maybe if oBUMa would have paid attention to the “russian collusion” BEFORE THE ELECTION the FBI may have had more time to tend to the “white supremicist” according to some ...

If Obama would have went after Trump during the election, y'all would have had no problem with it? right...

Weak sauce excuses all day everyday from the right. Trump and company are just a few more drips and indictments away from being exposed. Guilty or not, we will know the whole story soon enough and there is nothing the right or Trump can do to stop it. That's called America, the checks and balances are there for a guy like Trump. Never seen Obama on the news EVERY night with scandal after scandal.

I love that. "Guilty or not", and your whole posting for the last year plus has been 'guilty'. Never mind those pesky things like charges. You were wanting to impeach him minutes after the election.

Were you watching Fox news this weekend ? ;P

You're ridiculous. I still believe he's guilty, but I'm trying to be open in case the FACTS prove otherwise.

Perhaps unwittingly (nah, I guarantee it was unwittingly) you proved my point.

You believe he's guilty to start, but you're willing to let the facts prove he's not.

That is 100% NOT how our system is supposed to work.

But, thanks for playing and showing your true colors. Damn, if only Trump were a D, you'd be all over him.

Trump wouldn't have been elected as a liberal. lol.

I'm glad in your mind that you are satisfied and you have somehow boxed me into a truth corner of sorts... I also chuckled at your use of 'unwittingly' as an attempt to insult my intelligence, you're a funny guy.

I've been cracking up at you ever since you dawned your RED Adult Underoos and been running through these threads making spiteful attacks on liberal posters in an attempt to show them how smart you are.

You've become that little cross eyed kid on the playground that comes at you swinging with all he's got so you have to put your hand on his head to keep him at a distance while trying not to laugh to hard because it just makes him madder. Yep, you've stalked me through threads for days making petty arguments out of the silliest things trying to prove yourself somehow. We've all seen it. It's sad.

That said, I'd like to sincerely wish you well and have you know that my hope for you is that whatever you need to make you complete will find it's way to you soon. oh, and BTW... thanks for playing.

Bro, we're watching this in slooooooooooow motion.

j/c

Reading this thread reminds me of nothing more than the bait and switch practice Trump uses on Twitter.

Let's change the subject and pretend that the Russians didn't interfere in our elections and that doing absolutely nothing about it is a perfectly normal response to the issue.