DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2018 NFL Season 2018 NFL Draft Josh Rosen - continued

Impossible to answer that, bud. All anyone can do is read what's out there.

Leadership isn't even a question of mine about Rosen.

I really don't like to use this "Ceiling" thing many use. But in looking at Rosen, being NFL Ready, one could tend to believe he's close to his Ceiling already. Just a thought. Not mine though.

I look a couple years down the road. This is where I believe Darnold will surpass him. He's got an NFL Body right now and will only get stronger. I love bigger QB'S that can take the beating and last 18+ games.

Question? Does that Shoulder injury or the 2 Concussions this year or ROSEN'S slight frame bother you at all?

Just info,. But it's reported that Mayfield had 2 Concussions in 2015. 2-3 years ago. So there's that.

It's not impossible to answer. He either has inside information or not. Otherwise, he is stating an opinion as a fact.




I will answer those one at a time:

Shoulder injury: No. Many guys have had shoulder injuries. Last year, people on here didn't want Jimmy G because he hurt his shoulder. This year, Aaron Rodgers hurt his shoulder. Drew Brees suffered a terrible shoulder injury. Are those guys undesirables because they hurt their shoulders?


Two concussions: Yes, they are a concern. But again, do you have any clue as to how many guys have had concussions?

Frame: Let's look at guys w/similar frames. Eli Manning, Matt Ryan, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, etc. I think all 4 were skinnier in college than Rosen. Wanna guess what their durability has been like in the NFL?

I really don't care if people like Rosen or not, but I think he is receiving unfair scrutiny. I believe this stems because he is wealthy, intelligent, and has spoken his mind in the past.

And if the Browns pass on him and he goes on to greatness, we will hear the same old questions again and again.........."How in the hell did the Browns pass on this guy?"

I've declared for Darnold, but I wouldn't be disappointed if we go with Rosen. I believe both are very likely to have good to great NFL careers. I suspect that 15 years from now, the debate about who was better will be long and heated. And I want Cleveland to be one of the teams that benefit.

Not sure if this was posted but I'll provide the link here since its so long and has gifs. Pretty good breakdown of the good and bad of Rosen and some history. I'm not a scout but I still like what I see to my eyes. Excellent recent review for those that haven't seen it. Clink the link for the rest of the story.


Josh Rosen is the most polished quarterback in an NFL draft class filled with raw, unadulterated, could-be, might-be prospects..

Baker Mayfield, Lamar Jackson, Sam Darnold and Josh Allen will all get first-round consideration. They all have the ability to move around and make plays out of structure. Some evoke the most vapid of scouting terms — upside. All have flashed within NFL concepts.

Only Rosen is ready to orchestrate an entire NFL system from the jump; he’s an on-script guy, not a freelancer.

At UCLA, he ran as close as you will see to an NFL scheme in college — with some pace-and-space goodness sprinkled in along the way. And I’m not just talking stylistically. Sure, he took some snaps under center (a ludicrous thing for people to harp on) and the team ran a heavy dose of “11” personnel, the NFL’s grouping of choice. But all of the top prospects had NFL elements within their offenses.

Only Rosen orchestrated a full audible system, in which he was able to set and reset protections, flip from one play to another, or change the formation and play call entirely. It was his show.

Rosen’s fall Saturdays served as a non-stop advert of what he can immediately offer a franchise on Sundays. There’s little schematic projection involved. Let’s go into the Film Room to look at the good and bad of the most refined quarterback prospect in the country.

https://www.diehards.com/ucla/film-room-good-bad-attitude-top-nfl-draft-prospect-josh-rosen

This will be ignored and people will keep posting false claims that his coaches and teammates hated him and said he is a bad leader.

Fwiw, I see Browns' players posting pics of them and JFF together all the time. Maybe being well liked and being good are completely different things.

Good read, thanks for the link. Unless he becomes a total beyotch about playing in Cleveland, he's the guy I want.

The tennis thing was interesting, in terms of footwork/body angle being similar to a proper QB throw.

I don't think any of that. My only reservation is his concussions.

I agree, he may never have another in his life, but once you show a history of that, you stand a good chance it will happen again. That is one of those conditions that doesn't go away.

If it wasn't for that, he'd be my #1 choice. I won't be upset if we do draft him at #1.


Also....you challenged a poster who said something about Darnold having superior leadership skills.


I guess it is all in how you read it. It doesn't have to mean Darnolds are superior to Rosens. It can mean he has superior leadership skills. If taken in that context, it's hard to say he doesn't. Plus, how would one measure one against the other? Either they show good leadership or they don't.

I think both have. I think most of the guys being named as possible #1's have shown leadership. Some rap Mayfield. You have to remember, it's not what you or I think about his leadership. He's not leading us. He is leading his team. As long as they buy in, that is all that matters. Leadership isn't just what we see on Saturday or Sunday. It's about friendship, dedication, the will to win, what is being done in the weightroom, etc.

Concussions are my only issue too. It sucks, because I do not care about all the "doesn't want to be a Brown" talk. Nobody wants to be a friggin' Brown.

I just want to wait and see what happens. And really wish that I could be a fly on the wall when we interview the guy.

And yet that's another thing you keep hearing that he has never said.

ahhh, but he has said:

"I'd rather be a lower pick at the right team than a higher one at the wrong team."

I think he pretty much implied it by that comment, in my opinion. He has made a similar comment in another interview with Andre Ware.

Which could easily mean he doesn't even want to be drafted in the top 10.

What drafted QB would want to go to a bad team?

People just make of it what they want.

Just to be clear you know that I like Rosen a lot and will be happy enough if we draft him right? I mean I think I made that pretty clear but just in case it wasn't, it should be now.

I don't think outside of the concussion issues there is anything that would keep him from being taken. Concussions are a serious issue because it's one of those things that your more likely to get the more you have had them. You never know when that next one is going to have him one and done. It's a pretty scary thing to have in a prospect as important as a QB. No one is saying he is guaranteed to have more but rather that science has said it's likely he will.

When it comes to LEADERSHIP I do think Sam Darnold has the best in this draft. He is cool under pressure but also shows passion and excitement when he needs to get his teammates pumped up and motivated. He doesn't embarrass one player in front of another but takes them to the side to talk about things privately.


"Darnold is “the best one-on-one leader and confident leader that I’ve been around,” said Helton, who relayed an anecdote: Shortly after moving into the starting role last September, Darnold tossed a touchdown pass during a seven-on-seven workout to former USC wide receiver JuJu Smith-Schuster, who then celebrated the score in the end zone. Great route, Darnold said, but we don’t need that stuff.

“He’s the one-on-one guy. He’ll take guys aside,” said senior safety Chris Hawkins. “I think he’s rubbed off on the team where we’re never too low, never too high. He’s flat line all the time.”"

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nc...ball/100708818/

Here is an article where his teammates are passionately coming out on his behalf and to me that is pretty cool.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/12/sam_darnold_passes_the_teammat.html

Anyway Sam has the TYPE of leadership I like to see in a QB. I love Mason's leadership skills too. I think Rosen has OK leadership skills but I don't feel the same emotion coming from him when he plays. I mean Rosen has admirable coolness and calmness. Plus Rosen always knows what he is doing so that instills confidence in him from his team mates. It's just that I don't feel that warrior's boiling blood in Rosen that I do in Sam or Mason. It's not a major flaw or anything like that but it's one of those things that boost my opinion of Sam and Mason a little over Rosen.

And everything any of us is posting is our opinion of said players. Like I said, "All anyone can do is read what's out there." I mean vers do you think what you post is any different? Your just posting your opinion of what you read and watch in videos the same as the rest of us. None of us are on these teams or in the GMs staff as they talk about anything. We are all just sharing our opinions and it's not something to feel dirty about.

No offense but that article didn’t clear any of the rumors up about him not being liked by his teamates or his leadership ability. No teamates or coaches were quoted in that article. Which is your benchmark for the rumors. You can’t have it both ways.


And like Ive said, he may very well be a good leader and respected by his teamates, I’ve only ever said there is enough articles out there for people like me and others to have questions about it. Just cause the information out there is unconfirmed doesn’t make it false. I posted one article where in fact his teamates were interviewed, the response was that they felt Rosen made strides in that area this year. My question to that would be “why did he have to make strides?” Was he not a good leader and needed to get better, or was he an ok leader and became a good leader? See, that arises questions for me and apparently some others. I think it’s ok to question it.

It’s a difficult one to decide, Rosen or a Darnold. Both have abilities that would make them the number one pick, both have even been back and forth on who is/was better. Two years age when Darnold burst onto the scene all the talk was Darnold will be the number one pick as soon as he decides to declare, lately its kinda been Rosen who’s been the top of the heap.

For me they both do things I like, but I still have questions. Darnold with his mechanics, Rosen with injury history and some of the stuff that’s been written, wether true or not. What type of guy is he really.


I also like Allen, well at least his potential, he has more questions for me then the other two. Not sold that he’s a top 5 or even top 10 pick, although he probably goes that high. The guy could be the best out of this draft or posibly a bust.

The QB I like the most, Mike White, I also have some questions about, but he’s not gonna be a first round pick more probably a second or third. So probably not in the equation for the Browns, unless the pull what Washington did and draft two QBs, which I don’t see them doing unless the trade Kizer.

Back to Rosen......
The guy is gonna give you everything within the framework of the offense and do it well. His mechanics do not need any work whatsoever. Is he gonna run around the pocket and buy a bunch of time, probably not. He’ll slide around the pocket though. I’d say Darnold posibly has more “wow” type of plays in him and may have some more star potential in him, but I’d also say Rosen is a smarter QB and if he takes it to the level of a Peyton Manning could be that type of player. Comparing the “potential” of these two is like comparing Brett Favre to Peyton Manning. Which one do you like better? And I’m not saying by any means that’s what these two are gonna end up being. What I’m saying is Rosen is more cerebral as a QB and will fill the stat sheet, while Darnold might not fill the stat sheet as well but will string some “wow” plays together late to pull out a win. Two completely different ways to a win.


All this is assuming they become the players they are suppose to be. Which could go either way for many different reasons

Will you please stop?

I asked you quite awhile ago to provide quotes from teammates and coaches that say he is a bad teammate and leader.

You haven't posted one article that does so.

You are repeating unverified rumors from irreputable sources over and over. It's deceiving. You did the same crap last year w/Myles Garrett.

I have explained to you that people read posts like yours and automatically believe that stuff is true. Yet, you keep on w/the character attacks even though there is NOT one freaking report out there from his teammates and coaches that back up the rumors.

I even posted articles and videos from his coaches that paint him in a positive light.

I am going to ask you again to please stop posting in such a manner and try and play fair. If not, we will have to end our discussions for good.

Rosen was very didliked by his teammates as a freshman when he put I believe it was a hot tub in his freshman dorm room. Many saw it as him rubbing his family money in their faces.

What isn't reported is that he really won over his teammates. Despite a very bad ol and receievers dropping passes at a high rate, he never tossed his teammates under the bus. His attitude problem came from the Niki camp when he and Trent dilfer had a few heated exchages, considering Trent has always been an ass, I can't blame him for that one.

Right now I would go Darnold because of 2 concussions in a months time but noone
Should count out Risen just yet.

Not only that, but Trent said that he worked with him or whatever more recently, and that he was very impressed with who he was.

People mature and grow, especially during those years. I'll tell ya, the one thing I learned in college was that I didn't know as much as I thought I did and that I was better off just doing whatever my parents told me to do, lol. (Still hold my parents as my closest advisors, which pisses off the wife, but whatever. They're old, have seen a lot, and thus are great decision makers).

That's exactly it though. Those are the kind of things that get left out.



My biggest fear with Rosen is durability. Questions about concussions. He had that arm or shoulder injury too. I don't think Darnold has had those questions. That's the big thing holding up my decision at this point. That and Mayfield is just a really good football player (and thus I've gotta evaluate him more).

But Rosen is money. There's no doubt about it. Matt Ryan-esque. Looks exactly like a Pro QB. If we played in a dome, that would make my decision even easier. I love the way he goes through progressions, so accurate to all parts of the field. He just looks like an NFL QB. Sure wish the concussion thing never entered the picture.

That and I like the way Sam Darnold is talked about. That could just be the media, but there's something about him that I like a lot. He looks like an AFC North QB (even though I think he's like a California Surfer Boy, lol).

I bet they'll both be good ones.

But, we still have a couple months to decide (assuming we don't nab Kirk Cousins in FA)

On a 1-31 Team.... I think it matters a lot..

And we are not going to start winning,this things take time, and Hue is still here remember...

Maybe next year....

Are you serious?

You want to please quote me where I attacked the guys character, cause I haven’t. All I’ve said the whole time is I have questions about it. That’s it. Please try not to put things I haven’t said in my mouth.

I did post an article where his TEAMATES said he made strides in that area. So that’s false information by you.


The concerns I had with Garrett last year, well one was injury concerns, how many games did he miss? Not saying I’m right but he didn’t alleviate that for me just yet.

I will NOT stop, I’ve said I hope nobody is reading what I write as fact, many times, it’s my opinion and concerns. And I love how you get to post whatever you want but want others to adhere to your view and there view isn’t wanted on here. I’ll post whatever I want, when I want regardless what you wish. You do t like that, I’m sorry. Last time I checked we live in America and it’s a right.

You want to end the discussion go ahead, no skin off my back. Sorry I’ve had concerns for the players you like, but dude people aren’t gonna see everything the same as you. Regardless if any of the rumors are true or not on Rosen it makes me have concerns about the guy, that’s all I’ve always said about him. Yet YOU paint it that I’m attacking him. OK, I guess if that’s how you see it.

ANd again, EVERYONE on here has a right to post whatever they want regardless if you like it or not. You don’t like it, don’t read it. Really didn’t want to post like this but what choice did I have? You’d have done the same.

You kinda deserved that, Vers. Lol. Let it roll off the shoulder, man. These are exciting times.

I didn't really post anything to butt heads, just my opinion on the guy, and concerns I have. Even stated that's all they where, and that they could very well be nothing, don't know how else I was suppose to explain that.

I like Rosen on the field, have stated that, but do have concerns, injury history and other. I even compared the kid to Peyton Manning and the way they both kinda have a cerebral approach to the game, yet still get bashed for posting my opinion and concerns as false information. Is it not OK to have those concerns? Even if the rumors are false.

Alright, don't stop. You are posting rumors over and over and over again. I can see doing it once or twice, but you won't let it go. Yet, you never talk about his skill set and other things. You ignore the positive comments from his real coaches. You did the same damn thing last year when you kept insisting Myles was lazy.

So...........don't stop. And I'm sure you will say that you don't care, but I am not going to talk to you about anything again.

Good luck w/your misguided crusade.

Deserved what? The guy is repeating false rumors over and over again. I asked him to stop w/the charade that his teammates and coaches have said he isn't a good leader or teammate, because that is simply not true.

He doesn't want to stop. Fine. You can follow his damn ass for all I care.

Maybe I should start posting false information about the guys you like? Hey...........y'all will have deserved it, right?

Let's see............I will post this 52 times in a month. Sam Darnold's coaches and teammates say that he throws so many picks and fumbles the ball so often because he is afraid to get in the pocket and either forces the ball into coverage or lets go of the ball while wetting himself.

Look KWhip.........you've been around these boards long enough to know that we have a certain responsibility to be accurate and fair. We can offer opinions and disagree all we like, but repeatedly reporting false information in an attempt to persuade others to see things your way is unethical.

Vers...I know Rosen is your guy. I will admit that I haven't read every page on this thread, so apologies IF this has already been addressed. But, my concern with Rosen is his injury history and I am worried he won't make it through a season and could be like Bradford. Great baller when he is playing, but not dependable as he is often hurt AND we all know that if you don't have a solid, reliable, dependable back-up who can also ball then the drop off from starter to 2nd can be devastating to a team.

What is your take and thoughts on the above?

Those are valid concerns.

He injured a shoulder last year, but that is not unusual for a qb. Jimmy G hurt his shoulder last year w/NE. Rodgers missed most of this season w/the same injury. Brees suffered a terrible shoulder injury when sacked by Big Penney. Romo has had several. McCown injured his shoulder. In fact, there are a ton of qbs who suffer shoulder injuries. That is due to them not being able to protect themselves while trying to throw and being crunched from the other side.

His only other injuries have been concussions. He had two last year. That is certainly a concern. I don't know the specifics of this, but I'm sure the teams will investigate this thoroughly. If they deem it to be a big risk, they will probably pass on him. I will say that it's hard to find football players who haven't had concussions. I had several....and yeah, cue the jokes ...LOL

I think your concerns are legit. I am not even asking anyone to like Rosen. I just don't like false information being repeated over and over and over again.

Let me elaborate. The first time I heard that Rosen was a bad leader and teammate, I automatically assumed it was true. I really didn't watch the guy that much. However, when I saw him completely outplay Darnold in a head-to-head matchup, I started watching his videos and reading all I could. I soon learned that his coaches and teammates never said any such thing and in fact, his coaches have praised him. I just think that we should play fair when either building up our guy or knocking down a guy.

I have concerns about all the QBs in the top 4-6. Rosen's injury history, Darnold's inability to hold on to the ball, Baker's height, Allen's inconsistencies, Jackson's potential to quickly desert the pocket and resort to Manziel'esque backyard scrambleroonies, Rudolph playing against weak Big 12 defenses, Lauletta and White playing in smaller conferences. I believe all but Rosen and Allen are products of the spread rather than pro-style offense? The learning curve will be huge for all, especially big for those who have rarely, if ever, made a huddle call or stood patiently in the pocket.

This is why I like the idea of putting the $$ forward and getting Cousins, use the 1 for Saquon, 4 for Fitz and then take a QB later (Rudolph, White etc.) and allow them to learn from Cousins. A QB room with Cousins, Rudolph/White and Kizer is a pretty damn good one.

Of course my thinking on the draft all goes out the window if JT decides to retire, but we could address a LT in FA or package a deal to move back into the 1st and get Brown. I don't think this is a strong year for tackles though.

But, I am keeping my mind open and wanting to learn more about Rosen. But, I am also leaning more and more towards Barkley at 1.

Edit: I should clarify the first sentence: I am referring to the top 4-6 QBs in the draft.

Very fair.

And I would just like to reiterate that I am not trying to convince you to like Rosen. I promise.

I just don't like misinformation.

We all have our opinions and it's cool to debate and even get crazy at times.........LOL.

I just have a responsibility to try and be accurate and not promote things that are not true.

You are probably aware of this, but allow me to provide an example of why I think it's important. I love to research. Even my tech savvy kids rely on me to research products and many other things. I used to have a saying when I was a Grad Assistant in college.............it's not about whether or not you know the answer, it's about if you know how to find it. Anyway, I research all the time to make sure I am accurately portraying some of the information I relay on here. And in my searches, guess what occasionally comes up as a source? Yeah........Dawgtalkers. LOL. Shoot, one of them on the main search page was a a quote from me. Freaking nuts. I was somewhat embarrassed and I wished I could have deleted it, but the real message is that while we are typing, our words and messages are out there for many people to view. Opinions are one thing. Spreading false information over and over again is another. I think we have a duty to try and be honest.

Agreed on false info. But, let me just say I haven't bought into that nor have I spread that in here. I know you were not hinting at me as being somebody who has, but my worries are solely based on his health and maybe his size/weight in the AFCN and Cleveland in Nov/Dec (and hopefully one day soon, Jan!). But, he has the polish to be superb. In Cleveland? I don't know.

That is why I am more bummed we whiffed on Wentz than on Watson. Wentz would have been perfect for the toughness of the AFCN and winter ball on Lake Erie. AND, I 100% admit that I trusted our brass when we passed on him. His sophomore season in Philly has proven just what a glaring f-up Sashi made by not getting that kid.

I am also not holding any weight on the Baker/Manziel comparisons. My worries with Baker are solely based on his height. But, I also recognize the kid is a competitive baller who plays with moxie and heart.

I am here wanting to learn more about Rosen...especially as the combine is coming up soon, FA and before we know it...the draft.

J/C

From Matt Miller via Twitter;

"One thing I'm watch for post-Combine is what teams take from Josh Rosen in interviews. There' been some talk that he's slipping with teams, but this will be their first chance to meet with him."

No, I was not accusing you of that. Not even close. Your concerns are valid.

You should go back and watch some of the game videos from Rosen if you are interested. I think I posted them on here. The Texas A&M game and the USC game against Darnold would be good places to start.

I think the A&M game shows he is a good leader and how the guys rallied around him. The USC game shows that despite an inferior supporting cast, he was clearly the better qb. Listen to Herbsteit's commentary during the game for confirmation.

Oh heck........I will look them up again for you and anyone else interested. I'll try to find ones that have all of his throws, including his bad ones.

But, is he slipping or is the media just getting more information? Or are these smoke screens? Or is the media just making up a story to have a story?


Personally, I spent some time today watching Darnold because I really want to be sold on the guy. There's something I like about him, maybe I'm just trying to see what the analysts are seeing. The one thing I saw is lot of potential and talent. He'll need to sit behind someone next year. But I like the way he can create. And he's certainly got a good arm. I know folks don't like his mechanics, but he seems to have a quick enough release. But, then I saw some big mistakes that just make me nervous. Throws that should have been intercepted in that Cal game, where I'm wondering "What the heck is he thinking?". Stuff that just looks DeShone Kizer-esque

Now Rosen looks really good to me. Pro-Style Offense, progressions, easily the best passer of the bunch. He can probably start right away. And we don't know what his ceiling is because he might just continue to improve on all these things he's good at. He really understands the art of being a passer.

I'll have to continue watching more of these guys (although it's hard to find the videos with all the throws instead of just highlights with Darnold from this year)



Of course, there will be other things that teams have information access too that we don't. Real reports and interviews to help determine if they are actually a fit for this team. Health concerns.

Concussions are clearly some of my biggest questions with Rosen. How bad were they. How many.



At this point, if I'm picking a guy, I'm still going Josh Rosen. He's got the experience, he's got an incredible arm. He just seems to be a natural

I just watched both of those videos in their entirety again. Not sure what more a guy has to show than that? And the leadership thing? Fast forward to the very end of the Texas A&M game to see how his teammates mobbed him to answer that question, in case you are too busy to watch the entire video.

The dude is accurate and can deliver strikes under pressure. And he ain't no statue either. Watch the videos and tell me that isn't true.

And btw--------did anyone notice the fake spike and the dime to the WR to win the game? He is in college! This dude is unreal!!!!

I just watched the 20min A&M vid in its entirety too. He definitely has a nice delivery. Seems quick almost like Jimmy G. A couple throws are beautiful, several are very good and a couple are worrisome (the TD where they go to 38 would most likely be picked in the NFL). But, that is forgivable as all college QBs throw passes like that and for every dodgy one there are 2-3 beautiful ones that he throws.

Queueing up the USC game now....

Good analysis. He got lucky on that one TD pass. If you read this before viewing the second vid, try to pay attention to how he leads receivers. There is one throw where he throws behind the TE, but other than that.....Damn!

Also, very astute comparison to him and Jimmy G. Nice job!!!

He is clearly very good at throwing in front of his receivers who are in full stride. In both vids he leads the receiver, hits them in a spot where the defender can't get it and as they are exploding at full speed, which often allows for yards added on to many of the passes. In several instances it can be a big impact play. Kizer struggled with many of his passes where the WR/TE had to stall to catch or, at worse, the ball was behind them.

I know the USC vid was a Rosen highlight, but I would have liked if they showed both QBs as a side by side comparison. But, I am sure somebody has compiled that tape and it is on Youtube. I'll do some of my own research.

Cheers for re-posting these.

Why do you get so defensive about this? The character and leadership questions are out there. The whole world is mentioning it. It's a REAL question that needs answered.

Personally I don't care about any of that.

I LOVE watching this dude throw. He's picture perfect.

I'm majorly concerned about the Concussions. Couldn't care less about the shoulder. It's obviously healed.

He's superb in a Clean pocket.

I question his size also. He looks thin cut.

Concussions are my major though.

I'm STOKED if Rosen is the pick at #1. But I prefer Darnold.

If Darnold or Rosen are NOT Browns at #1, I will be highly pissed off and will seriously question every single one of these FO guys AND Jackson.

Mayfield is the glamour boy Heisman winner, but there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that we take a 6 foot QB at #1. This is MY for sure guarantee in this draft.

Kipers CRAZY with this Allen at #1 BS. He's equally LOSING it with Rosen falling to 11. That's hilarious.

QB'S of this caliber are going 1-2. GUARANTEED. And very possibly 1-2-3.