“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
he would know. Vick was a freak on the field, but Lamar would most likely have a better worth ethic early on in his career than Vick did, and Lamar is a better passer, or could be.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
I don't know how Lamar will fare in the NFL. He can scramble and he can throw. Is he a Michael Vick or is he just another backyard baller like Manziel who struggles to read defenses or allow a play to develop?
What I do know is many of these talking heads questioned if Watson would even go in the first round. When Houston moved up to get him at 12 they then said it was an overreach.
Point blank Lamar sai he cant catch...lol He aint no WR.
But end of the day. Odds are he gets killed running like he did in college. His passing just is not NFL quality. Heck you think he can duplicate his college game. Tebow? RG3? n RG3 was much more accurate. We can get Tebow for free. So is this a viable discussion? Is it???
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
I don't know how Lamar will fare in the NFL. He can scramble and he can throw. Is he a Michael Vick or is he just another backyard baller like Manziel who struggles to read defenses or allow a play to develop?
What I do know is many of these talking heads questioned if Watson would even go in the first round. When Houston moved up to get him at 12 they then said it was an overreach.
Look who had the last laugh. Maybe LJ will too.
Last Laugh about what?
Dude ripped his knee up in less than 8 games. And it DIDN'T happen in non contact practice. It happened in the previous weeks game.
DC's didn't even get a chance to plan for this kid.
Let's see what year 2 and 3 bring before we Hail Watson.
Point blank Lamar sai he cant catch...lol He aint no WR.
But end of the day. Odds are he gets killed running like he did in college. His passing just is not NFL quality. Heck you think he can duplicate his college game. Tebow? RG3? n RG3 was much more accurate. We can get Tebow for free. So is this a viable discussion? Is it???
Is RG3 more accurate or did he have a better team around him?
Lamar had to do absolutely everything st Louisville. You talk about o line play a lot, yet I’m surprised you never mention how quickly his pocket collapses on a regular basis hroughout the season.
And why the comparisons to RG3?
We keep talking about injuries, but Lamar hasn’t been hurt in college. RG3 even had some injury history coming out of college, but Lamar doesn’t. He’s stayed healthy game after game, even AFTER not only having a worse o line, but running more than RG3 did.
So how come you’re so quick to say the negatives, yet won’t mention the comparison to Vick, who has stayed relatively healthy throughout his nfl caraeer, despite being a running QB?
Cause he’s way more to Vick than he is to RG3.
And Tebow? At this point you’re not even trying to look at him the same way you do these other dudes.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
The 'he doesn't talk a certain way' narrative is frustrating. They act like he sounds ignorant.
Bro, I’m trying my ass off not to bring that narrative up. But it’s increasingly more difficult by the day.
And I don’t even have to bring the way he talks up to make the point.
Just look at the mountain of excuses the board is giving guys like Josh Allen, who is WORSE in accuracy than Lamar, despite being the “prototype” QB. How come nobody tells josh Allen to swap positions?
I don’t get it man. Somehow all these QBs coming out are capable of being able to have their mechanics fixed.
But Lamar? Nah, very few wanna give him the same excuses despite having better PASSING numbers than Allen and haveingna better PASSING TD-INT ratio than Rosen and Darnold, and better overall campaigns than every qb coming out with the exception of Mayfield.
But none of the other top 4 guys are being told to swap positions. Hmmm.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Every draft season since I joined this forum I hoped for a few threads where we talk about the QB prospects in terms of breaking down there skillset with examples from games.....i know crazy right?
The current media discussion about Lamar Jackson makes no sense. But it doesn't surprise me that it coming from ESPN. Whether they believe the non-sense they are spouting or not their nonsensical/illogical commentary about Lamar is driving their rating BIG TIME.
The 'he doesn't talk a certain way' narrative is frustrating. They act like he sounds ignorant.
Bro, I’m trying my ass off not to bring that narrative up. But it’s increasingly more difficult by the day.
And I don’t even have to bring the way he talks up to make the point.
Just look at the mountain of excuses the board is giving guys like Josh Allen, who is WORSE in accuracy than Lamar, despite being the “prototype” QB. How come nobody tells josh Allen to swap positions?
I don’t get it man. Somehow all these QBs coming out are capable of being able to have their mechanics fixed.
But Lamar? Nah, very few wanna give him the same excuses despite having better PASSING numbers than Allen and haveingna better PASSING TD-INT ratio than Rosen and Darnold, and better overall campaigns than every qb coming out with the exception of Mayfield.
But none of the other top 4 guys are being told to swap positions. Hmmm.
Come on Swish, I know you are trying not to go down that path, but you know what it is.
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
i think his mechanics can absolutely be fixed. the argument can certainly be made that it would be easier to fix his mechanics over Allen or even Mayfield.
the only QB that can start day one is maybe Rosen. but just because he can start day one doesn't mean whatsoever that he will end up being the better QB, nevermind in the class, but just for that year. i've eased up on Rosen because i think if we draft a QB, he's most likely the guy.
but i still want Lamar over these other guys.
this is my thoughts: lets say you take the top 5 QB's, and hypothetically, they all sit for year to learn the pro game and work on mechanics.
since we're talking about a bridge QB to start day one anyway, that shoots Lamar to the top spot, simply because if you refine his mechanics and combine that WITH his running ability....ewwwwwwww. he's vick without the dog fighting problems (character issues).
if you - again hypothetically - had to start the top 5 guys day 1, then it goes:
Rosen Jackson Darnold Mayfield -insert whoever that doesn't matter -
because Lamar can give you instant offense just with his pure play making ability. he can collapse defenses without even throwing the ball. Lamar jackson will go from the fastest player on the field in college, to the fastest player on the field in the NFL.
and you've already shown that Lamar has decent accuracy already, especially compared to the other guys.
do you dedicate a spy? stack the box? Lamar has proven that not only does he have a cannon, but he can fit passes into tight windows, he just needs to work on his feet and ball placement.
like ALL THE OTHER QB's not named Rosen have to also work on coming out.
my dream draft is Barkley at 1, Fitz at 4, trade up to get Lamar. since people are hellbent on disrespecting him anyway, even with a solid combine/pro day performance, the bias will make sure that he isn't drafted any higher than 10, most likely.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
I don't know how Lamar will fare in the NFL. He can scramble and he can throw. Is he a Michael Vick or is he just another backyard baller like Manziel who struggles to read defenses or allow a play to develop?
What I do know is many of these talking heads questioned if Watson would even go in the first round. When Houston moved up to get him at 12 they then said it was an overreach.
Look who had the last laugh. Maybe LJ will too.
Last Laugh about what?
Dude ripped his knee up in less than 8 games. And it DIDN'T happen in non contact practice. It happened in the previous weeks game.
DC's didn't even get a chance to plan for this kid.
Let's see what year 2 and 3 bring before we Hail Watson.
Yep, we will see what he brings this season and you may be correct. But, I tried telling myself the same line after Wentz's first year and he proved us all wrong and now I wish the Browns had taken him (more so than Watson because of his size and he played in bitter cold). And, please don't say "we all knew Wentz was going to be a stud". There was plenty of skepticism both here and by the talking heads with him coming out of a smaller school and that he wasn't worthy of the 1 or 2.
But end of the day. Odds are he gets killed running like he did in college.
This is a spurious statement. Odds are every QB will get hurt....actually odds are every player in the NFL will get hurt. Very few players make it through the NFL unscathed. Saying the odds are that a player will get hurt in the NFL is like saying water is wet.
But if you mean Lamar specifically because of his rushing attempts in college then you need to consider these facts especially in comparison to the other QBs in the draft class.
o Lamar will be exposed to far less contact in the NFL then he did in college so in fact he won't be 'running around like he did in college'
o Lamar has not sustained any serious injuries despite having taking far more hits then any QB prospect in the class and in recent history (by comparison Josh Allen and Josh Rosen have both sustained major injuries in college and missed significant time)
Quote:
His passing just is not NFL quality.
Lol, based on what standard? The same standard that has Allen ranked ahead of him as prospect? The same standard where Matt Stafford and Jay Cutler were top 10 picks? The same standard where Vick was drafted #1 overall?
eotab-no disrespect but your posts about Lamar read like someone who has never watched a Louisville game and is simply regurgitating the media narratives and some of the usual 'running' QB tropes
Swish - Let's eliminate quarterbacking ability from the conversation and just talk about the feasibility of playing Wr.
If Jackson can catch, he would be amazing at Wr. A 1st round draft pick. Would any of the other guys even get draft consideration? Perhaps Allen in the 6th or 7th round.
I think that explains why none of the other guys gets discussed as candidates to play Wr
Am I perfect? No Am I trying to be a better person? Also no
would Allen be good at the TE spot? it's not WR but any kind of position change.
but look at it from a bigger picture. people are saying he can play WR as a negative on him being able to play the QB position.
people trying to treat this dude like he's Tebow or something.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
i think his mechanics can absolutely be fixed. the argument can certainly be made that it would be easier to fix his mechanics over Allen or even Mayfield.
Accuracy seems to be the main factor that the Kiper/Polian/McShay (i.e. ESPN) brings up as a knock against Lamar.
So lets dive a little deeper into the accuracy question.
ESPN guys refer to comp % when they mention accuracy.
Let's look at the QB considered by ESPN as their top QB or one of their top 3 QBs.
Josh Allen 2016-56% 2017-56.3%
Lamar Jackson 2016-56.2% 2017-59.1%
Right off the bat Lamar has a higher comp%.
But lets look beyond comp% as the measure for accuracy. Let's use a truer stat that accounts for receiver drops because one of the arguments ESPN uses to prop Allen up is his lack of talent.
So how about a more advanced stat then comp%:
PFF’s adjusted completion percentagecredits passers for on-target throws that are dropped by receivers, but also removes passes that are thrown away (i.e. not targeting any receiver), batted at the line of scrimmage, spiked or even passes thrown when the quarterback was hit as he threw.
Josh Allen 2017 adjusted comp- 65.7% Lamar Jackson 2017 adjusted comp - 73.3%
For context PFF ranked the top 14 draft eligible QB prospects. Allen's adjusted comp% was last...the others:
1. Mayfield (81.5) 2. Rosen (74.6) 3. Jackson (73.3) 4. Darnold (71.3) 5. Allen (65.7)
Let's take the accuracy discussion even further. Scheme without question plays a role in accuracy stats.
Another argument ESPN makes for Allen is scheme. They say Allen's offense at Wyoming didn't give him easy completions like spread offenses...bubble screens and other behind the los passes.
I certainly agree that scheme impacts how I look at 'accuracy' stats. I tend to view spread QBs accuracy stats as 'inflated'.
Quote:
Jackson had 62 of his 399 passing attempts occur at or behind the line of scrimmage. That's roughly 15 percent. Josh Allen had 48 of his 251 passing attempts occur at or behind the line of scrimmage. That's 19.1 percent.
Lamar Jackson is unequivocally a more accurate passer then Allen anyway an honest person looks at it. And the advanced stats show he's on par with their other 'top' QB, Sam Darnold, in the accuracy dept based both from PFF adjusted comp% and by Ian Wharton's charting:
I started off w/ Jackson like with any other prospect...watching film and when I took a deeper dive into Jackson's accuracy stats I found impo that he's more accurate then his perception.
Swish, you mention fixing his mechanics. Jackson narrow base jumps out when watching him on film. And its a fairly obvious flaw and easy to fix flaw that will undoubted improve his accuracy. Imo its better to see a fixable flaw when it comes to a prospects mechanics then in the case of Allen where the flaw in his mechanics are more hidden and harder to pinpoint which makes it harder to correct. On tape Allen sometimes misses throws despite his mechanics being sound.
I get your point. And I agree with it. I don't think Lamar should be considered for a position change. I think the right offensive mind can create a devastating offense around him.
I think Allen might have the size to be a TE but I don't think he will be fast enough to be a deep threat down the seem and I don't think that he is strong enough to be a blocking TE.
Am I perfect? No Am I trying to be a better person? Also no
in the case of Allen where the flaw in his mechanics are more hidden and harder to pinpoint which makes it harder to correct. On tape Allen sometimes misses throws despite his mechanics being sound.
and i think that's why some have compared Allen to Kizer. is that not the same issue with Kizer?
especially looking at the 2nd half of the season with Kizer. the poise in the pocket was there. the mechanics were there. hell, a lot of the times, the right read was made.
but then he throws the ball and its like...what happened? how did you miss the target that bad?
and so its like, Kizer and Allen are the same exact QB. so why are we talking about allen in the 1st when we already have him on the roster? at that point, i rather roll with Kizer, at least he already has a full season under his belt. and doesn't he also possess the crazy arm talent that needs to be molded just like Allen? they are the same size, height, arm strength, etc.
so why draft Allen only for people to end up complaining about him the way they do Kizer all the time?
moving on, Ed, you know i'm also cool with mayfield being drafted by us. however, do you think it's a valid concern to have that he plays in a conference with weak defenses?
i look at the conference Lamar had to play in, combined with the lack of talent around him, especially the poor defense he played with, and wonder why those excuses aren't for lamar, but they are readily there for other QB's?
also, Mayfield was throwing to some WIDE OPEN receivers. he's not gonna get anywhere near those kind of windows at the NFL level. which obviously isn't to say that he can't succeed, because i certainly believe he can. then you combine that with his height.
so now we have tighter windows, combined with him having to create his own passing lanes due to a slight height disadvantage.
IMO, he's more closer to Wilson than he is Drew Brees. so that means more roll outs, PA, etc. Wilson played in a pro style offense in college, which i only bring up because that seems to be highly important to others. Mayfield didn't.
now, he's still more accurate than Lamar, and according to the numbers here that you posted:
Quote:
For context PFF ranked the top 14 draft eligible QB prospects. Allen's adjusted comp% was last...the others: 1. Mayfield (81.5) 2. Rosen (74.6) 3. Jackson (73.3) 4. Darnold (71.3) 5. Allen (65.7)
he's the most accurate QB coming out this year.
but as others have stated in various discussions, either in draft section or PF, Colt McCoy was also an accurate QB. now, i think Mayfield is way better than Colt, but the comparison is still valid.
when talking about his narrow base, i agree. i also agree that its easy to fix, but this is my biggest concern with lamar:
can you get the "take off and run" out of him enough at the nfl level?
the narrow base has a lot to do with him being ready to take off at a moments notice. you've posted the full highlights with all the throws, misses, int, etc.
and i've watched a lot of games live last year of louisville. his line is trash. yes, he does bail out of the pocket way more quickly than i would like, but again, an argument can be made that it was out of PTSD/necessity due to his line leaking more than the titanic after hitting an iceberg.
every game i watched, his receivers dropped the ball at least 3-4 times. his line is like a bunch of Shaun Colemans out there.
but just like mayfield, he has the ability to make the team around him better, especially making the o line look WAY better than it actually is, due to their athleticism and ability to create.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
...the only QB that can start day one is maybe Rosen. but just because he can start day one doesn't mean whatsoever that he will end up being the better QB, nevermind in the class, but just for that year. i've eased up on Rosen because i think if we draft a QB, he's most likely the guy....
Every year QB prospects are labeled as potential day 1 starter or as QBs that 'need' to sit. And every year people are wrong. Mitch, Watson, Wentz, Dak, Russell Wilson etc. You just never now with these types of projections. Those types of projections are heavily influenced by factors we can't know. How willing is the staff to cater their offense around the prospect? How quickly can the prospect absorb the system? We can't know those things right now.
and i think that's why some have compared Allen to Kizer. is that not the same issue with Kizer? but then he throws the ball and its like...what happened? how did you miss the target that bad?..... at that point, i rather roll with Kizer, at least he already has a full season under his belt. and doesn't he also possess the crazy arm talent that needs to be molded just like Allen? they are the same size, height, arm strength, etc.
Having a discussion about Kizer is too long of a sidebar for me right now to do it justice. But quickly I would say that both Kizer and Allen tend to overstride...and I think the comp between the 2 is valid.
Quote:
moving on, Ed, you know i'm also cool with mayfield being drafted by us. however, do you think it's a valid concern to have that he plays in a conference with weak defenses?
A QB can only play against the people they line up against. However, I do take Baker's accuracy numbers with a grain of salt because their scheme created a lot of separation and had like other spread offenses has a lot of easy passes AND OU's great OL keeps him well protected. Baker is throwing from ideal circumstances.
To be clear; I think Mayfield is accurate. But I don't think he's as accurate as his numbers suggest. I posted some of the his missed passes from the senior bowl practices in the Mayfield Film Breakdown thread as an example if you want to refer those posts. But, imho a QB with Baker's vaunted accuracy shouldn't miss throws like the ones he missed in that practice session.
Quote:
i look at the conference Lamar had to play in, combined with the lack of talent around him, especially the poor defense he played with, and wonder why those excuses aren't for lamar, but they are readily there for other QB's?
I guess I don't really wonder 'why' those reasons aren't given for Lamar. I could posit reasons but i guess for me in this context/forum it really doesn't matter.
Quote:
but this is my biggest concern with lamar: can you get the "take off and run" out of him enough at the nfl level?
I think he'll be fine in that respect. I don't think Lamar bails from the pocket as much as people think. Louisville by scheme called a lot of designed QB runs. In the NFL they won't call as many designed QB runs.
My concerns for Lamar are: consistency of his mechanics. Every QB, every prospect has to become a better player in the NFL then they were in college. My on the field question with Lamar is whether or not he can develop and maintain consistent mechanics and fundamentals. He varies his arm angle from throw to throw and will need to develop a consistent repeatable mechanics to raise his accuracy numbers.
My other main concern is the team/staff that drafts him. Will they be committed to AND have the football acumen/coaches to facilitate his development and maximize his talent?
Quote:
the narrow base has a lot to do with him being ready to take off at a moments notice. you've posted the full highlights with all the throws, misses, int, etc.
Maybe that could be the source of the narrow base. Its not what I see but who knows. Whatever the reason are he ends up having a narrow base too often.
Like with the other QB prospects there is a lot of game cut-ups of Lamar on YouTube. There are also some good game film based breakdowns of his play and skillset out there.
I wish the draft could be held in February with no combine. Too much time from the end of the NFL season until the draft. Rely on what you saw from watching film and seeing players play in person. Too much time for the men in charge of selecting players to change their minds about what their eyes saw. The combine just adds to the confusion. Jackson will get drafted in the 1st round. The rest will be up to him.
Last edited by Glw12; 02/24/1801:23 PM.
I just want a winner. We need players who can be part of the solution not part of the problem.
Every draft season since I joined this forum I hoped for a few threads where we talk about the QB prospects in terms of breaking down there skillset with examples from games.....i know crazy right?
Actually, since you came, you've been the driving force in that direction. Please, don't give up, it's informative to posters like me who rely on others to know where to look and what to look for.
1. #GMstrong 2. "I'm just trying to be the best Nick I can be." ~ Nick Chubb 3. Forgive me Elf, I didn’t have faith. ~ Tulsa 4. ClemenZa #1
Every draft season since I joined this forum I hoped for a few threads where we talk about the QB prospects in terms of breaking down there skillset with examples from games.....i know crazy right?
Actually, since you came, you've been the driving force in that direction. Please, don't give up, it's informative to posters like me who rely on others to know where to look and what to look for.
RG3 was more accurate it had nothing to do with the team around him.I can be wrong if this kid is nfl accurate he will be a great QB. I do not have the time to watch film. You do it if you honestly review his throws to be consistantly accurate then keep on pimping him cause you would be correct.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
I saw "a" game last year n Thought he was not nfl accurate so I moved on deeming him to not be # 1-5 pick worthy. So if a guy like swish watched more why I posted what I did. As usual you n I see the same thing. Just leaving the door open. But telling posters what they should see if not then they are kidding themselves.
Having surgery in 5 hours as 2nd opinion is doing a 5 year fix with 60% chance of success. In lieu of amputatuon. So giving it a shot. I think a no brainer as Im watching Mike Tyssportcenter is on.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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