DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Are we as bad as we think?

Now let me preface this by saying that I'm not saying we are a great team. We have some serious deficiencies on some areas of the team right now (OL, DL, CB leap to mind), but with that in mind are we that bad either?

Sure we haven't won as many games as we might like, but when you examine who we have lost to the information is a bit more encouraging.Of the teams we have lost to only Carolina and Pitt have losing records. I think that we are also playing in one of the hardest conferences, though we have debated that it might be down this year at times. I think there is a good chance that one of our AFC North teams will be in the AFC Championship game. Further we hung better than most with San Diego.

I'm not saying everything is great, but there is the possibility that our schedule is flavoring our view of our status this year. There is alot of work to be done, but we might be closer to being competetive that we thought. I think with some added toughness on the lines we might actually turn around fairly quickly.

That said I could be completely nuts too. I am a bit of an optimist. <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Losing close doesn't mean a thing.

This team still has no strengths. It has no backbone to build on. We can neither run, nor stop the run. We cannot pass consistently, nor can we stop the pass.

If we were losing close, but could run the ball, and teams couldn't run on us .... I'd agree that we're close. With a strong passing game, and a strong rush defense, I'd agree we're close. Unfortunately, as it stands, the product on the field simply doesn't appear to be close to anything, except the basement.

So far this year, we are 30th in scoring. We are 30th in rushing. We are 21st in passing. We are tied with Houston at 28th in passing TDs at 13. (and we've had 4 in the past 2 games)

We are 30th in rush defense. We are actually middle of the pack in rushing TDs against. We are middle of the pack in passing defense. We are tied for 23rd in passing TDs allowed. We are tied for 28th in sacks.

We allowed a new personal high to a rival RB. In our other game against our rival, and allowed a 224 yard 4th quarter passing performance against us in our 1st meeting.

Are we improved compared to last year? If so, what are the measures we can use to see this improvement?

It's OK to think we're "losing close" ... but it really doesn't mean a thing other than being the kind of smoke and mirrors football people use to keep their jobs.

i side with the optimists.

at the beginning of this year, several people said, be careful with your expectations, or else we might do something stupid this year (change coach, change QB, or change GM)

we just need to stay the course. if we are a 4 win team at this time next year, then we can call for some heads.

no we are not as bad as our record indicates. IIRC up until we played the last steeler game, cinci was the only team that wasn't within one score. the D kept us in games, but the O just couldn't give us that little extra ummph.
i believe this off season can be the one that will put us in the win column again. we just need so many spots filled though, that PS has really got his work cut out for him this year. if we can sign the right FA's and be smart with our draft, there's no reason we can't contend next year. it will be year three, and that's when it needs to happen.

As an example:

The 2005 Cardinals lost 4 games by 5 points or less.

The 2005 Raiders lost 5 games by a TD or less.

The 2005 Redskins lost 5 games by a TD or less.

The 2005 Bills lost 5 games by less than a TD.

Any 2006 playoff contenders here?

Don't confuse parity with progress. The NFL is set up to have close games. The good teams win more than their share at the expense of the worse teams.

Would you prefer we get blown out more? Think before you answer... who here would prefer that we lose by more than we currently do? Who would prefer we had more double digit defeats than 4 point losses? Show of hands please.....


Because....

In 2004 the Bears were 5-11 with losses by margins of... 4, 5, 10, 3, 12, 31, 14, 29, 19, 6, and 17... the next year they went 11-5... <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


In 2003 the Chargers were 4-12 with losses by margins of... 13, 24, 14, 3, 6, 16, 13, 29, 7, 4, 17, and 16 the next year they went 12-4.... <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

This year our losses have been by margins of... 5, 17, 1, 8, 10, 7, 4, 30, and 20....

Know what my infinite wisdom tells me from all of that? Nothing... other than losing a bunch of close games doesn't mean you are closer to being good.... Something happens in teams that turn the corner, a light comes on, somebody flips a switch.. I don't know what it is, with each team it seems to be different a couple new players, a new coach... something changes...... the one immeasurable that seems to hit every team is a level of confidence where they start believing they can beat anybody... and the only way to get that is to win some games early...

[color:"white"] Are we improved compared to last year? If so, what are the measures we can use to see this improvement? [/color]

i compare each position from last year to this. i can't go by rankings because way too many things come into play.
OL - maybe a tad better.
WR - better
RB - no
QB - what's that? <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
TE - most definately

DL - yes just because of ted
LB - most definately
CB - no because of who we've had to start all year
S - definately plus we're getting depth

i think we're better just about everywhere although the stats/rankings don't show it. losses by one score could mean as little as a missed FG, a dropped pass, a fumble, mismanagment of the clock etc.
it can very well be more parity than you think and it can very well be less progress than i think. it's prolly somewhere in the middle.

We are still young at a lot of positions: safety....WR, QB, LB, (less so, but still younthful at LB with D'Qwell and Kamerion).

We need our youth to get better, and we need some OL, CB and DL help this off-season. If we can get those things, we MIGHT challenge for a playoff spot in 2007.

See, that's what I'm thinking... we aren't 4 years and a miracle away from being 9-7 and competing for a playoff spot.. we are some maturity and 3 or 4 quality starters away (which does not include getting a couple guys healthy)... that's not to get us into the super bowl now, just to get us to compete for the playoffs.

Are we as bad as we think? I think so.

I see an influx of young talent, but I don't see that translating to wins. I really do think the young guys need more time, but for whatever reason, I just don't see a different product this year than the last few. Right now, I don't see that changing. Let me rephrase that, I haven't seen anything out of this year's team that would lead me to believe it will change. I include the coaching staff in there as well. They haven't showed me much.

Another thing to consider is our division. I don't see Cinci, Baltimore, or Pittsburgh going anywhere. They are all loaded with talent and we don't match up well with them. That's 6 games out of 16 every year. How can we achieve even a 10-6 record when we can't compete very well in our own division. (DC, I see what you are saying about the Bears and the Chargers, but I wonder what their divisions were like when they turned it around.)

I know one thing, though. If the talent level continues to increase, but we continue to see the same results, Crennel won't be here after next year. I personally think 3 years is enough to show some sign of turning the corner. If the product is the same next year, I won't be sad to see him go.

j/c...

A more appropriate title might be....Are we as bad as we look??

I forget who said it, but there's a quote that goes something like: You are what your record says you are. Our record says we have a lot of weaknesses ... and we do.

We are only as bad as our record indicates,,,,,ooops,, Yes, we are as bad as we think we are <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

that doesn't explain the teams that go from 5-11 to 11-5 or 4-12 to 12-4... or are you suggesting they fixed all of their weaknesses in one offseason? Because as I read it, you either have to be suggesting that OR that it is possible to be 5-11 without having as many weaknesses... one or the other has to be true... right?

Some or our weaknesses are undeniable...the OL is a big one. Obviously that is not even arguable.

Other weaknesses are areas that we didn't think would be. The injuries to our defensive backs have made an area that some considered a strength into a weakness.

Parity is obviously a factor. But the very concept of parity is that teams are closer in talent level more often than not. If this is the case we could turn around rapidly with only a few tweaks of the roster. This is based on the assumption of parity.

I'm as disgusted with this year as anyone...I'm just trying to find that silver lining of one exists.

Some teams have a weakness that can be fixed by a player or 2. For example, a team that cannot run the ball picks up a premiere RB, and suddenly can run. Or a team that has a poor passing game, and a guy develops, or is picked up to fix the position. (like this year's Saints)

The Patriots fixed ther team years ago with a bunch of mid level (to be kind) free agents. The Saints have overhauled their roster, and have 11 new starters this season. Sometimes a team makes a change, like the Cowboys going to Romo, and that sparks the team. Sometimes a new voice at the top is needed, like when a talented Bucs team made the change to Gruden, and won a Super Bowl in his 1st season, after years of "almost". Other times, a team may get key players back from injury.

There are no easy answers. If there were, turning around the Titanic would be a much easier task.

There are no easy answers. If there were, turning around the Titanic would be a much easier task.

Is that before or after it sank,... <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

Just kidding,...

We are worse than most of you think.

I don't see all the close games that you guys do. We got blown out by the Bengals twice, and the second time they had 3 starting offensive linemen out. What was the score? 27 -0 or 30 - 0? That isn't close.

We played the Steelers tough the first time even though we did not score an offensive touchdown, and were embarrased the second time. 27 to 7 is not close, and the game wasn't even that close.

We were manhandled by Carolina, who played conservative football.

We were never in the game against Denver.

San Diego beat us by more than one score and they had a good portion of the defense out of the game. They also made one mistake after another. Calling back to back timeouts to keep a drive alive is just one example.

We have had some close games, but we have been killed in too many other games.

With all that said......an eye test will tell you that we stink.

We are still putrid on the offensive and defensive lines. We have very little young talent waiting in the wings to improve either unit. That is a HUGE cause for concern.

We do not have a starting qb. We argue about the two, but neither one is good enough to be called the guy.

Our wide receivers drop a ton of passes and one shoots his mouth off too much.

We don't have a quality RB on the roster.

We are probably hurting at cb.

Too many problems and not enough answers. Crennel will take the fall, but the real problem is that Phil Savage has done a [censored]-poor job of building this team. I disagree w/most of his moves. And his mistakes will haunt the Browns for at least another few years.

Have a bright, sunny day. <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

j/c

This post is a loaded question with no clear cut answer to it.

Let's look at our *minimum needs* IF everything goes *well* with big question marks we have now.

Bentley needs no further surgery and is ready by the beginning of the season AND we resign Fraley.

Tucker makes a full recovery and is ready to start. We still blow at the G position. And while we would be able to run against week competition,but that's a bout it. And we still have a LT that will be stinking up the joint on pass protection in general. So we need two upgrade at G and a REAL LT to be a competent quality unit. And Tucker isn't getting any younger. So we need to start looking for quality depth at minimum there as well.

DL? You tell me. <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

And we do need one physical shut down CB.

Now those are the areas that need improvement so that we can be competative. Not world beaters,but competative. So IF the best case scenario comes to fruition we're about 6-8 players away from being competative.

At that point,we can actually evaluate our talent in the skill positions to see where upgrades can be made to compete for a Super Bowl. And what about depth? Where are we there? Depth makes teams successfull.

And will our coaching staff be able to teach our #1 WR to catch the ball? Can they teach Winslow to stop drawing the cheap flags? How about teaching him to block? I mean,we have some raw physical talent,but lack the dicipline to see them maturing to the point that their potential is being reached.

So you tell me,how far away does that make us? Especially if things don't go *well* with the big question marks we have?

Now that depends on how bad you think we are.

Ok, speaking just for next year.. by your own standards, we need one good OG, and one good LT... one by draft, one by FA...

We need two. One big NT, and one DE... one via draft, the other via FA.... and we need Wimbley to keep progressing.

No we don't. Not just to compete. Bodden, Baxter, Cutch, Holly... and our safeties are getting better by the game...

4... 5 tops.... we might be 7 or 8 away from doing any real damage but not just to compete for a playoff spot.

and the 3 that we need to get us from competitive to serious competitors are... RB, QB, and another OLB that can rush the passer....

I'm not convinced that the RB and QB aren't on the team now, just developing... but I think we do need a stud RB.....

1 year away from being competitive and 2-3 from being seriously competitive...

are we as bad as we think?

Yes and no.

Yes, in that we haven't been able to put more checks in the win column.

No, in that the schedule was going to be an uphill battle from Day One til Day Last.

Someone asked if there was a way to measure progress. My answer: yes. Not so much in stats, because a numbers expert can spin them to support any position he wants to take. Here's how we can at least detect improvement:

In the comments, remarks and observations made about us by other teams and football professionals.

Just 3 short years ago, everyone was calling the Browns things like "pathetic" "hopeless" "one of the perennial 3 worst teams in the NFL" This year, I've heard none of that from anyone. Even notorious "Browns-hater" Sean Salisbury is saying things like, "I like what's happening in Cleveland. They finally seem to be getting it right. They've reorganized their FO, are bringing in real NFL-caliber talent, and are starting to put a real team together. They aren't ready to contend for a SB, but they're doing all the things you need to get there." Just last week (after our Thur nite drubbing) Mark Schlereth started a comment by saying "When the Browns get their remaining pieces to become an elite team..." No "if," no "hopefully"... WHEN.

That's gotta count as progress of a sort.

Other coaches are saying similar things about us. We play hard, we're almost there, we gave them all they could handle, they were lucky to win their game against us, they aren't looking forward to a rematch with us. Even the Ravens players were saying stuff like "These aren't the same Browns we've played in years past."

Seems that lately, the only folks who really hate on us are US. ...and Joey Porter.

The key to this entire thing IMO,is FA'a are the big variable. You first must consider all we have are FA's on the OL. So now you say one drafted G? That would be fine if any G with more upside and youth,rather than history and downside had been picked up be fore now.

So the only way I want anything on the OL handled via FA's is if it's a younger G with his best years more than likely ahead of him than behind him. And that in all likelihood isn't going to come cheap. Band-aid time is over in the OL department. That tune has been played around here long enough.

Baxter? He's coming back? He's going to be healthy? If so,no,we don't need a physical CB because he is just that. But I have nothing to indicate he will be back at all. If he is,we're fine IMO

If Savage was so right in taking LB one and two last year,why is it we shouldn't go OL 1 and 2 this year? Not saying that's my position on the matter,but isn't the need basicly the same? And what about DL? Who's the starter you got penciled that we already have for next season? Where is the third guy DC?

You say 4-5,I say 6 minimum. so we're not really that far apart. But I'm interested in your theory on Baxters return and who that lone wolf is that we already have on our DL?

And that's assuming they can teach Leon to catch the ball and KW2 to stop the stupid penalties and actually block.

You are only as good as your last game. So going by that we really really really really suck lol.

I was just trying to be a little more diplomatic about it. But,yes we do.
<img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Well, I pretty much agree with your entire post.

It paints a very dire picture.

Your extreme hatred for Savage, however, lets Crennel and his staff off the hook. You don't seem to want to hold Crennel accountable for poor performances.

Savage has done some good things and some bad things, but I hold both of these men accountable for the overall product on the field.

If things don't change Year 3, I don't think either of them will be here for Year 4.

As for the Savage hating, couldn't you be more subtle? <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I love it when one of these guys say something bad about the team, brown fans are jumping all over them, calling them browns haters, etc etc. But when they say something good about the team, nothing is mentioned by browns fans.

It was also being said (in the off-season)that the browns have improved but they still won't win that many games but the browns are getting there.

Maybe brown fans should calm down and let Savage and RAC do their thing.

We sure do look bad all too often. But there's a fine line between being winners and losers. The records of the Bears & Chargers were poor one year and great the next. Apparently, if almost all of the pieces are in place you could still be on the losing side of the scales...but just a couple more grains of sand in the offseason could be enough to tip the scales.
Is our scale teetering...or are we substantially short on weight?

We need help on both lines. The help on the OL could make our QB & RB positions much better...the help on our DL could help our LB's & DB's be much better.

Somebody said we'll have 33 mil to spend. Let's blow it all on the lines and see if the scales don't tip in our favor.

It has been a mix.

First we must not discount the purge of underperforming talent that occurred when Phil arrived. Warren and Brown were the curse of the high draft pick that did not produce in proportion to their salary. So we lost some good players, abiet in disproportion to their salary.

Phil has gone after "less than critical needs" in order to build a team through the draft. The selection of Edwards was mixed, but a build to a long term solution. I still maintain that the selection of Wilson, Sowells and Williams will ultimately determine the speed at which the Browns will turn things around. There were other players that were available that fit a need profile, and could have had a greater impact on the team sooner. The red-shirt comment about Sowells indicates that Phils plan is longer than a single season.

Free Agency has been a bit of a disappointment. Russell, Zastudil, and JJ have been fine. Andruzzi, Schaffer and Coleman a bit disappointing. LCB and Baxter have been injured, and that has not helped. Ted and Wille are on their last legs but seem to be effective enough.

We need more than 3 players from each draft to emerge and become productive starters. A team with this many holes should have more younder players playing significantly.

Undrafted FA's (not waiver wire pick ups) is another area where the Browns could proobably do better. Cribbs and Fraser are the only ones getting significant playing time.

This year the Browns deficiencies in the OL and DL were exposed. Phil has his task, the Browns won't get any better until they get better in the trenches.

The Chargers were terrible on the OL and made the switch to the 3-4 in the same year that they turned it around. 5 new starters, and they drafted Igor in round 2, Hardwick round 3, Phillips round 4 Olivea round 7.

I heard that the Saints have 33 new players of 53.

You can't be afraid to blow it apart, if you want want to get better.

I know it sounds as though I'm citing a lot of ifs....but...

If Bentley had stayed healthy

If Baxter had hadn't had the torn pec...then the knee injury.

If Bodden could have played every game

If we hadn't been forced to count on a rookie WR, rookie TE and a rookie QB for our offense.

If Cutch would have been available this year.

If Willie Mc had been healthy all year.

We wouldn't be having this conversation right now.....

Over the past two years, Savage and Crennel have attempted to build a decent team. They've done some good things and have had some things work against them.

The Browns have been building a decent base, but it is a thin base. We have very little depth, and injuries at the wrong time have hurt us. Savage wanted to keep Holcomb, but Holcomb left for Buffalo. Savage wanted to keep Bryant, but Bryant left for San Francisco. I'm not saying that either of these players would have made us winners, but if they would have stayed we would have had more options and depth at key offensive positions.

Our lack of depth has hurt of this year, but it can be a step towards the depth and strength needed for the future. Edwards, Frye, Anderson, Winslow, Holly, Brown, Pool, Cribbs, Jackson and Wimbley have all gotten valuable playing time and have been helped by the fact they've had to learn on the job.

We've had growing pains.... and yes we've been bad....BUT...we've also seen good things too. Winslow has looked good as a pass catcher, now he has to learn to be a better blocker. Edwards is learning that he has to catch and hold on the ball in stride...not just go to one point and jump as he did in college. The Coaches are learning too. Carthon is gone. Davidson is getting a shot as an Offensive Co-ordinator.

Would last year's roster have done as well against this year's schedule? ...maybe...maybe not. Personally, I doubt it, but who can really say....

We are building depth and experience. Even if our injured vets never return (Bentley, Baxter, Cutch and Tucker), I think the Browns have advanced to the point where there is a light at the end of the tunnel...although we still need to build at RB, OL and D Line.... as long as Randy doesn't do anything stupid..... I believe that the light at the end of the tunnel is not an oncoming train. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I dont think the Browns are THAT BAD!!!

they just can't produce...

one reason may be QB.. one reason may be O-line.. and then sometimes its those dropped passes..

Injuries have plaqued the O-line.. losing Bentley.. we've gone through more centers than we have QB's since 99.. lol..

defensively.. i think that is the strong point to this team.. and sometimes u have to remember that we played most of this season with 3rd/4th string CB's...

Bodden is pretty good playing against the run.. give or take a few plays agains the steelers (he was just rusty)...

Baxter has excellent cover skills, but he too was rusty when he came back, then he suffered what could be a career ending injury..

next year though.. anything less that 8-8 is unexcusable... if charlie is the QB!! even with a guy named Troy Smith.. our team should have grown enough within the past two years to let a rookie QB come in and make a smooth transition to win some games..

BIG THING FOR NEXT YEAR!! SHOULD BE A GOAL OF RAC's...

WIN AFC NORTH DIVISION GAMES!! THIS IS A MUST!! The browns will continue to be in last place in this division if they cant win within the division...

THE BROWNS WILL CONTINUE TO BE IN LAST PLACE IN THIS DIVISION, IF THEY CANT WIIN WITHIN THE DIVISION!!

The Bears that year had essentially 16 road games (stadium rennovations caused them to play at the U of I in Champaign). They also changed OC in 2005 to Turner who implemented their current offensive scheme.

[color:"orange"]Are we THAT BAD?
In some cases no..the D resembles more of a 34, but it's incomplete..
Here's my brief take of the team.
I think coaching has a lot to do with what the Browns are facing now, but it goes all the way back to last season with Dilfer not getting along with Carthon.
This team was a runaway train before the season started, because the brakes failed when Mo chased Dilfer out.

Before, anyone goes all meltdowny...Dilfer is no great shakes by any stretch of the imagination, but he was the vet presence who would have kept Frye on the bench to develop...err..maybe that's "Anderson on the bench to develop..." (topic for a different thread, I think) That was the plan. Sticking to the plan for the players and following the GM's vision was more important, long term, than loyalty to a floundering OC.

Plus the preseason games INDICATED there was a huge problem with motivation..the lack of it showed in the first and last game.
It was never corrected.

Since the season started badly with the wrong OC, and to some extent, the wrong personnel, there was really no good way for this to go, unless the Browns got really fortunate which they did not.
Bentley went down, McGinnest and Washington have underwhelmed, and on and on. Excuses? Maybe, from a certain view, but these are facts, as well.

I am still not certain if anyone on the coaching staff "gets it", as far as what the Steelers games mean, but if the decade is truly a waste, as others maintain, then why not give continuity a try? Calling for RAC's head after each loss is like getting flustered after each wrong turn when you've gotten lost in an unfamiliar city -- the first mistake of getting off the freeway was the worst...everything that follows is just to be expected until you find the right route.

The difficulty with continuity is in trying to figure out where it should be maintained. The Browns have some good, talented players that can be built around -- Winslow, Wimbley, Edwards, Bodden.
For those who want Rac out.. If a coach can be found who "gets it" and who will not require emptying the cupboards again, then let RAC and his guys go. If no such coach is out there, then give RAC, and whomever he feels he needs to keep, another year to get better.
I personally think he needs another year to get it right with Opie flooding him with better players..
My other feeling ..Opie needs to have Rac in his ear about players who are quitters..and Rac needs to up the ante on his TRAINING CAMP and practices..to heck with giving those bums a day off if they get beat..U do that for a team that wins ..not one who loses.

[/color]

Your analogy of driving off the wrong exit on a freeway is a good one. Once you are off the road you can look at your map, have a cup of coffee, and figure out how to make the best of a bad turn. The time to do all this is not while you are bumper-to-bumper at seventy mile and hour doing a death dance with eighteen wheelers.

What the Browns need to do now is just to keep driving. They should ignore the honking, the shouting, and the bird fingers until they reach then end of the season.

Let's see what they're really made of these last three games. Do they lay down and die like a bunch of sissy-boy millionaires or do they try to play football as best they can? At this point I don't care as much about winning as I do about seeing them give someone a bloody nose in the remaining fight.

J.

Here's the other part using the freeway analogy..once U find your way U've lost time..and now U have to catch up..probably getting a traffic ticket or having someone mad at U for gettig lost in the first place...
Well when the Browns drive through the offseason and MAKE CHANGES..will those changes continue the slow building process or will it improve them at a greater rate?

There are some signs of life, although I dont think there is much from a few players and the coaching staff.

We had a lot of questions coming in some have been answered and in some areas we have more questions.

Quarterback. Charlie was one of the most sacked quarterbacks that I ever saw in college and that has continued. He has talent but I believe he is a long term project instead of a starting QB at this point in his career.

Anderson maybe, hopefully, I would love to see it but with our luck with QBs most likely another flash in the pan.

RB. Harrison cant block to save his life. Droughns is good for 1 game ever 5. Wright is a decent #2 but he isnt gonna set the world on fire.

OL They look better with a pocket passer than they do with the running QB but this group is in dire need of an overhaul and their run blocking just isnt consistent at all.

TE couldnt ask for more out of this group although Dinkins is a walking penalty

WR JJ is on fire lately but where was he the first 10 weeks. BE He is great, he is awful, he is a team cancer, he is still a mystery lol. Cutt is cut.

Defensive line Big Ted is a big waste. Roye is done for. Mckinley has been the only DL to show up the last 4 weeks and he still sucks. Signing Harris and having Baba on the practise squad is going to help. I think both could be tremendous players down the road.

LB McGinnest has been a waste of 17 mil. the rooks and Dra have been pretty good this year. Chaun is a better OLB than Wilie McGinnest. Geezz never thought i would say that lol

Safety Jones is a stud and its obvious Russell is the field general. Pool is a project and may be better at corner.

Corner- Not sure how we managed to hide this group as long as we did. Cutch and Baxter are history. I still think Minter is gonna be a stud. Bodden should have been rested and not playing with these injuries.

The #1 concern however is not being ready to play. There are coaches that can out think their opponent. Dont think RAC is one of those.

there are coaches that give the RA RA speaches to motivate his players to perform better than they are. Rac isnt one of those.

There are discipline coaches that make the players fear them into performing. RAC is definately not one of those

There are end of game coaches that manage to close it out in the 4th quarter if its close. Nope doesnt fall into that category either.

We have Casper the Friendly Coach and players take on the personality of its coach. In this case its a personality of a team that really doesnt do anything well and will beat themselves in crunch time.

If we can land a better coach we should go for it.

[color:"orange"] Tell me what you really think..that was too vague <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Your analysis on said players is accurate, yet in some cases they are rookies who have to learn better techniques.
In other cases the player just needs his fundementals inhanced, and that requires effect and diligence.
The free agent pickups are just too old and tired(through,washed up etc) to do anything and yes wasted money....I'll ignore the Thompson is better than WM comment..when WM wants to play he can be a force.There's the problem.
I'm going to say this about Rac..being a FIRST TIME HC , I feel he needed a strong experienced assistant next to him to help him in areas when he is ..
Inexperienced and weak.

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We can't go back and debate what happened "before now" Pit.. I refuse to do it. And I'm assuming that any first or second round draft pick OG is going to have more upside and youth than our current OGs....

This is why I said, in the thread about our $33M, that instead of picking up 6 or 7 aging or maginal players, focus on 2 that can really help now and in the future... one of those should be an OL... I know it won't be cheap... I'm tired of cheap fixes... go out and get another Bentley and we'll pray he doesn't tear his leg up the first time he steps on the field.

I don't know, I was just playing along with your "best of all possible worlds" scenario...... even if he doesn't come back, I would like to have a shut-down physical corner, but I don't think it's necessary just to be competitive.... it probably is to become "elite", but not to just compete....

Savage could go OL, OL or OL, DL or DL, OL in the first 2 rounds... any of those would be fine with me... this is one of those things that depends on FA... if we can get the 1 or 2 real quality interior lineman in FA, then that changes our draft needs depending on whether they are OL or DL....

Orpheus Roye, Alvin McKinley, Nick Eason... are all servicable to be a decent team. We aren't going to have pro-bowl players at every position... and any of them could play the spot just fine with a powerful young NT and our LBs gaining experience...

Leon will be fine... and that comment from Joey Porter is the first really negative thing I've heard about KW2's blocking so I'm not about to get all excited about it and accept it as truth..... and if we were 7-6 right now and the Steelers game would have been 24-21 at that point, do think KW2 blows up and takes a cheap shot? I don't think so....

Again Pit, there were 2 debates going... one to compete for a playoff spot, one to become a more elite team... my description is to get into the playoff mix in December, that's it. 4, maybe 5 players.... I'll stand by that.

[color:"orange"]this game is all about talent.
Clark - failed with the NFL allotment of draft picks to build a foundation through the draft.
Clark and Butch failed by not hitting on one Pro-Bowl or possible Pro-Bowl talent from their first day picks circa 99-03.

We have had to start completely over...void of "TALENT"

The process is just in the beginning stages - we all know you can fill some serviceable voids through FA market - a young Pro-Bowl talent like Bentley is a complete rare circumstance (that I hope we will get to experience). But mostly the impact players are gotten via the draft and those Talents have to be developed over time.

We just started so we are just experiencing some of the talent.

We got lucky in 04 late bloomers. KW2, Jones and a UDFA Diamond in the rough Bodden. Those are the talents we are experiencing.

BE, Pool, CF are just in the baby steps of developement.

Wimbley, DQ, Wilson, Leon, Sowells, Minter and any others from 06 deep draft class. Are just getting introduced to the NFL.

We are still in the baby stages of seeing this team formed.
Savage spelled it out.
Its a long process.
We have to do it Long term through the draft (he has had 2 draft classes no where enough to complete the process and all still developing).
We can fill some voids through FA...the more draft success we have the less voids we have to fill.

Are we as bad as who thinks??? I'm accused constantly of being a HOMER. But I am a "realist" more than I am credited. I have great hope sure but that doesn't mean I'm blind to the infantile stages we are on becoming the team promised by this new regime.

Almost all the experts at best expectations had us at 6-8 wins this season. And those were the good expectations. Well we are right on track to being 6-10 right in the cusp of all the good expectations for this season.

Go back to the beginning and review the expectations of this team. So although almost all consider this season to be down right distressful. as mentioned in this thread. Are we that bad?

I see the talent coming. I see our first day picks as hard as it is to evaluate drafted player in 1-2 years they are looking to be Impact and able to contribute like no draft classes before have been.

We have shown success like our Run D against Steelers #1, Bengals and then Chiefs...3 teams that in past years we couldn't even say the words stop the run against...well we do an outstanding job in stopping the run.

Then we show inconsitancies break out to attest to our youth and still need to procure more Talent...by giving up 300+ yds against the run.

I think this is testimony that finally...since 99 we are heading in the right direction cause we are seeing things that we never saw accomplished before.
A rookie with 7.5 sacks and learning a new position.
BE n KW2 showing glimpses of weapons we never possessed before.
Jones, Pool, Bodden and DQ showing growth and a bright future as young defensive players.

these simply are things we never have experienced before.

But make no mistake about this...we are in the Infatile stages. We need more young talent.

It would be nice to see Bentley re-gain his health that is a young talent needed.

But we must continue to draft and see these players mature into the systems.

We are better off than most people view us. Even the NFL I am reading and hearing such words as Young talents...young weapons...words never spoken about us before. Its a process of growth.

The failures like the past Steeler game simply are reminders - We are not done yet. We got a lot more to do.

Are we closer than people think??? So much depends on the development of those young players Especially the class of 06 a very deep and talented draft class.
Wimbley, DQ, TW, Leon, Sowells, Minter, Harrison, Vickers, Baba and Hamilton.

Nobody can predict their future...but the 06 was a special draft class across the NFL they are important to our success. Add now the stealing of Orien Harris a very talented DLman (1st round talent dropping to the 4th cause of attitude) draft I think by Miami in the 4th...let go - hopefully a wake up call - picked up by the Steelers and tutored in the 3-4 DL as a lowly waived rookie. Now Savage took him to take advantage of the bad effects of Roye going on the IR. Harris was the quickest and most athletic of all the Big men in the 06 draft. He had a terrible rap in attitude and dropped. Lets hope the slap in the face humbled him. But we might have another stud available from this deep 06 draft. Who knows how he developes over the next 2 years. But if this kid succeeds its not a UDFA Fraser talent its a 1st round pick's talent.

Me of course the eternal optimist sees the good. But make no mistake about it. We are not close to finished in this process. I'm more real than anyone thinks.

I'm glad Savage is out there scouting like no other GM/Personnel man is and the local media actually gives him heat about it and spreads rumor about Randy being disappointed that he's not at Berea more...Its the media that wants Savage around more so they can interview him <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> so they are dissatisfied with his work ethic.

Me I know how important the procurement of future talent is to this team becoming a GREAT team! I for one am happy with Savage's concentration cause it tells me he understands where his talents are needed. I don't want to rely on the mere fact well he is a member of the Browns so he is great. He is spending more time than any other of his peers in this area. This is Good <img src="/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" />

Our direction is good. We still have a long ways to go. Talent is the key.
2 small drafts is nowhere near enough.

It only gets better from here on in. We are in better shape than a lot of teams. We are ripe to make a significant change in direction in 07 as the young talent takes hold.
JMHO