DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2018 NFL Season 2018 NFL Draft The case for Saquon Barkley part 2

Certainly you understand what defenses do to the Browns offense?

They stack the box and dare the Browns to beat them via the air, in fact thats the theme that has played out with the Browns for as long as I can remember.

Fast forward to SB, what are his weaknesses, and if you don't think he has them you haven't studied him as much as you think. Pay particular attention to how well he does against a stacked box. Oddly the running game of the Browns over the past few seasons has produced similar results.

The success of any NFL offense hinges on the success of the air game not who the RB is, until we prove we can beat teams via the air will continue to lose, thats the key by far and by wide. And the running game will suffer as a result regardless, unless of course SB college stats are a lie, then your point would be valid sadly its not.

I couldn't help noticing you didn't provide a list of the talent starved on our team. Its simple we aren't talent starved, what we are is talent starved at the most important position fix that and off we go.

Hint hint its not the RB.

No .. what I'm saying is there are no Peyton Mannings in this draft. No Andrew Lucks.. No QB in this draft that can be the Savior of the Franchise. I said there were some possible NFL starters, and I do believe that. I also believe that Taylor is also an NFL starter. We are all arguing without setting a definition of terms. Taylor, the QB we traded for, a QB who has a winning record as an NFL starter, who has taken a team to the playoffs, with an outstanding Touchdown to interception ratio and completion % is not thought to be a Franchise Quarterback, but Darnold, who was 26-45 against Ohio State in his most meaningful game of the year, with 2 fumbles and 1 INT with 0 TDs, is a Franchise QB. Taylor is proven in the NFL and Darnold is not, but according to the board, Darnold is a Franchise QB and Taylor is not. That is why I ask for a definition of Franchise Quarterback, so we can all be discussing from the same definition. Why is Darnold a Franchise QB and Taylor not ?

JC


I have cooled on Bark. Great player, but I don't think he is the best pick for the Browns. I am willing to address another position and take a back in the 2nd round. There will still be several solid NFL backs on the board at that point.

I get it if it's a solid college career then it was only college, if it was a so so college career it's look at his college numbers !

What you do is you look at skill set and try your best to see what kind of player they will be at the NFL level, if you wait for a Peyton Manning or Andrew luck to come along your wait will be about 20 years between, and lets face it there have been some pretty good QB's in between, so if thats your prerequisite for drafting a QB will never get one.

You maybe have worked yourself into believing this is good thinking but its NOT. Sorry !

So with QBs going 2, 3 (probably), there is literally no reason to take Saquon Barkley first.

No .. I'm looking for a definition of Franchise QB. A definition we will all use. We all agree that Peyton Manning was a franchise QB, is Andy Dalton ? We agree that Tom Brady is a franchise QB, is Ryan Tannehill ? John Elway was a Franchise Quarterback, was Trent Dilfer ? There were people saying that they did not want Alex Smith because he was not a Franchise Quarterback. Why wasn't he ? Why are people saying that Darnold is a Franchise Quarterback and Taylor is not ?

I could care less if we get a "Franchise Quarterback," I want us to have a starting QB who will win games. If that is the definition of Franchise .. fine. If not, please define the term.

I took the liberty of taking Marc's definition and making it less idealistic, more realistic. Look at Andrew Luck, who many people use as the gold standard for "franchise" quarterback, yet doesn't fit that definition because of the quality of the team around him. What I want is a guy who consistently brings out the best of his offense. He doesn't have to be the hero every game, but has the capability elevate his team when necessary. I don't think he has to be an all-time great, but he should be good enough to keep your offense competitive. He makes the franchise (owners, FO, fanbase) comfortable with his performance and abilities to keep him in that role for a long time.

I have tried to get this board to define what "Franchise Qb" means in the past and was unsuccessful.

To me, a "Franchise Qb" is a guy who people think of first when they think of a franchise. A Qb who you "expect to be the Qb for the next several years.

And yes, that makes Dalton a "Franchise Qb"
Doesn't mean that they are good or have done anything in the league.

Marcus Marriota? Yes
Jameis Winston? Yes
I think Alex Smith is a franchise QB now.

I think many people though use "Franchise QB" to mean superstar Qb but I disagree.

Thank you

The Bills' memories of Jim Kelly are more recent than the Browns' memories of Bernie, plus the Bills have not been through a franchise moving as well as the Quarterback Hell the Browns have faced.

I have no problem with drafting a QB with # 1 or # 4, but I was an advocate for acquiring Smith or Cousins because I wanted to get the most bang for the buck out of the draft, without having to go Quarterback. That's my reason for asking why Darnold is seen as a Franchise QB and Taylor not. Especially when Taylor took the Bills to the playoffs this past year.

I feel that way as well, but there are others here who seem to think that anyone in the draft and not on the Browns' Roster is the Franchise QB needed. All I want is wins...

j/c...

Benjamin Allbright Verified account
@AllbrightNFL

Saquon Barkley played in 38 college football games.

He failed to get to 100 yards rushing in 23 of them.

(61%)

Tweet

this is true.

whats also true is that he only had 20+ carries 3 times last season.

2015: 182 carries, 1076 yards, 5.9 per carry, 7 TDs, 20 catches, 161 yards, 8.1 per catch, 1 TD,

9 TD's total.

2016: 272 carries, 1496 yards, 5.5 per carry, 18 TDs, 28 catches, 402 yards, 14.4 per catch, 4 TD's

22 TD's total.

2017: 217 carries, 1271 yards, 5.9 per carry, 18 TDs, 54 catches, 632 yards, 11.7 per catch, 3 TD's

21 TD's total.

so he averaged about 16 carries a game. when you look at the impact he has, running, catching, and just scheming against him, not cracking 100 yards rushing doesn't tell the story whatsoever.

The Jets have forced our hand at #1, we now do not have any options with the pick. We did to an extent before the jets moved up. Now you have to take the QB at 1. The pick will be a QB. Who? Idk. The only way the pick isn’t a QB is if Dorsey truly doesn’t like any of the QBs. If that is the case, and I’m not saying it is, then I could see Dorsey trading out of 1. Most wont like that, but I’ll trust Dorsey. QBs would go 1.2,3, we’d get our pick of whoever at four and whatever we get in said trade.

True that.

Yards per carry much more informative than yards per game.

Not happening.

You 100% sure about that?

What if Dorsey doesn’t like any of the QBs that high? What if there is a QB he likes better later in round 1 or even round 2? Not saying it’s gonna happen just saying it’s a possibility. Why, if he really likes a QB at one is he publicly saying his phone lines are open? Again not saying a trade down is eminant just a possibility. I’ll trust what Dorsey does. A trade down for me won’t be the end all for me, that’s all I’m really saying.

Forced My Ass.

We own the #1 pick in a QB INSANE RICH Class.

Listen to all the media TWITS you want. There's SEVERAL QB's in this draft that teams want to build their ENTIRE team around.

The Jets just PROVED it.

You don't move to 3 thinking you're getting a Geno Smith.

And these 3 QB'S DO NOT INCLUDE the likes of Lamar Jackson and Rudolph.

i would trade with the giants at two to swap our fourth. we then take our choice at QB and make sure to get saquan

This makes zero sense. Give up assets for a guy you will probably get anyway (if you want him). Tom Heckert, Phil Savage, and Butch Davis would be proud.

This alone makes me want him on the team:

http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2011/08/ultimate_physical_specimen_for.html

Ouch! lol But still, power cleaning 400+ off the deck is impressive.

How about squatting 700 pounds four weeks after knee surgery?

He won't be there at 4 unless the giants trade out of their pick. Of course you're probably one of these headcases that think any ole HB is good enough and you can land one anywhere in the draft. Of course some of us actually want a real running game and not a half arse one

There is no HB in this draft even close to Saquan in ability. He is going to be one of the very elite HB's in the league so please stop acting like he is some putz that is easily replaced because he isn't. I can easily give up some picks to make sure this kind of ultimate playmaker is on the Browns.

The last RB to go two or higher was who? Ronnie Brown?


Barkley will not be going two. It'll be a QB or Bradley Chubb. Otherwise the Jets would have traded to the number 2 pick.

Barkley will be there at 4. Question is, do we want to pick him at 4

1. You are putting words in my mouth. Please stop.
2. You don’t understand positional value.
3. The league’s leading rusher in 2017 was a rookie who was drafted in the third round.

If this plays out how I hope it will I think the Browns could easily come away with 3 top 10 picks in this draft.

It won't play out until draft day but the Browns are in the drivers seat, no question will come away with the best QB in the draft #1 is NOT for sale IMO. I never say never I am saying never NOW.

From there the key becomes Indy again. Buffalo calls the Giants won't budge or the Jets would have likely made a deal with them at this point, still a bit unknown but I believe the draft is QB #1, #2, #3, (Browns, Giants, and Jets).

I have to believe that Denver and Buffalo and quite possibly Arizona, or even Miami come hard for the #4 pick, we are now driving the draft as we should be with 2 top 5 picks in a draft loaded with QB talent.

Its likely Denver will want to move up to #4 to get the last of the QB's available or can Buffalo move to #6 and then use that pick to entice the Browns to move from #4? Or perhaps the Cardinals move here, but its likely Buffalo I do NOT want Buffalo's 2 1st round picks to move from #4 down to #12 so I make them get a deal with Indy 1st so we move down 2 spots and haul in Buffalo's #6 and their next 2 years or possibly 3 years of 1st rounders.

I use the #6 pick to take Chubs or Barkley then I work a deal to move back into the 1st for Chubs or Barkley bang we drive the draft come away with the best RB and DE in this draft, we have mad assets and can make this draft go how we want it too.

A trade with Denver and then with Indy where we give up some assets to get back to #6 in this draft can land us the 3 best players in this draft with future picks in place as well. Buffalo is key as well getting a hog share of their picks could also allow us to get a team like Indy to move, it would somewhat expose us and we could lose out on Barkley, likely Chubbs but man oh man we can land some serious talent imagine coming away with 3 top ten picks? Wow

The 1960s are long gone. Please say "RB's" rather than "HB's."

It’s not about what type of player Barkley is, it’s about production. What type of production will you get from Barkley vs. what type of production will you get from say a third round RB. Look at last year, the leading rusher came from the third round. Barkley’s abilities may be far better then the rest of the RBs in this draft but how different will the production be?

Also different kind of runners, Richardson a bull in a china closet. Barkley not that type, more Barry Sanders, guy who doesn’t take the hits most RBs do. Somehow avoids the big hits. Don’t see him being Fournette or Gurley, but more a guy who will bounce it more often. Not saying this is a bad thing, it could be seen as a plus, could help extend him career. Just saying he’s a different runner then the last few guys who have gone high, Fournette, Gurley, and Zeke.

I tend to agree with the others. I think there are a good number of backs who would be near equal to Barkley. Maybe better. Some years ago a can't miss back from PSU busted big time. Carter was his last name, don't remember how to spell his first name....Kajana is how I would spell it


I am not saying this has anything to do with PSU or saying Barkley won't be a great back. I am just saying you never know.

Barkley significantly better than any other back in this draft. To compare him to Kajana Carter is ludicrous at best.

There are some GM's who probably don't feel this way....

jc

Are we talking about Barkley at 1 or Barkley at 4? Barkley at 1 is not going to happen. It was probably never going to happen, and the Colts/Jets trade should have eliminated any doubt about that whatsoever.

I think QBs go 1/2/3. Barkley at 4 sounds good to me. Chubb would be alright as well. It just depends how Dorsey has these guys rated as well as other backs/edge rushers in the draft, what the vision is for the team, etc.

A trade down is an option as well. This is an unpopular opinion around here but as discussed in the other thread, teams are putting together rather aggressive and increasingly large packages to move up to get their QB. If a team were to do this to move up to 4, I'd certainly listen. It would have to be a good bit more than what the draft value chart says though. For example the Colts got what was basically an extra first round pick in value (above what the draft value would suggest) from the Jets. That's the QB premium.

For all those that want to take SB at #1 look at it this way. If we don't take the QB that our FO feels is the best, or for that matter any QB, at #1 we will be one of those teams in the future that his to pay dearly to move up to draft one. If we make the right moves we shouldn't be drafting this high again for a while. We are in a perfect position to get our QB for the future and we should take it. JMO

1. You don't value HBs. I didn't put any words in your mouth. Your the one who think is skipping out on the Best player in the draft is no big deal and can be replaced by any twit of a running back in the second round. If you don't believe it then stop spouting it. I've had enough of this nonsense.

2. I understand positional value just fine. I'm also intelligent to know it doesn't always apply and that there isn't any single golden rule for a draft except this: "When you pass on a great player to draft a weaker player out of a need you ALWAYS are made to regret it." When you take the BPA and it fill a need somewhere on your team even if it's not the biggest need then you will always win out because your team actually got better instead of you hoping it will get better. Perhaps the reason so many of the QBs in the league are sucking so bad is because teams fail to develop a proper running game to take pressure off the passing game. One day the league will wake the fugg back up.

3. Todd Gurley was the best HB in 2017 by far and he was a first round pick. He might not have led in yards but he sure led in what matters which are touchdowns galore. Unless you think his 19 TDs didn't qualify him as the best HB in the league. By the way that far surpassed Tyrod Taylor's TD total in Buffalo. This idea that a HB is garbage compared to a QB is just nonsense.

They key to success is a good QB, a great running game, and an excellent defense. There is guaranteed to be a good QB at 4. There is not guaranteed of a great running game if we let Saquan out of our hands.

Saquan is not just a HB because he is a game changing player. You HAVE to game plan your defense to stop him. That leaves other players wide open at times. A smart QB who can read a defense like Tyrod or Rosen will use that to shred up a defense in the passing game as they get forced to leave either Gordon or Landy in single coverage to stop Saquan.

If we can come out of this draft with Saquan and whatever QB they want by obtaining the #2 pick by trading up from #4 then we will have obtained the Biggest upgrade to our offense the Browns have ever witnessed as we will finally have a passing game AND a running game. Saquan can start day one. Our rookie QB can sit and learn a year or two and when it's time for our new QB to play he will be at the head of a monster offense that makes it guaranteed for him to succeed.

A talent like Saquan is not replaceable by any HB in this draft and it's a MAJOR loss if we lose this opportunity to have him on our team. Hell it would not even cost that much to move up from 4 to 2. It's crazy not to.