DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Our Last Franchise QB ..

Bernie Kosar Drafted in the 1985 Supplemental draft: Played 1985-1993 in Cleveland:

Kosar in his first 5 years: 52 Wins 34 Losses 1 Tie (Including Playoffs) ... 5 Playoffs 4 Division Titles Lost 3 Times in AFC Championship Game:

Browns Career: TD–Int: 124–87 Yards: 23,301 Passer rating: 81.8 2× Pro Bowl (1987, 1989) Kosar set a league record by throwing 308 consecutive passes without an interception, which stood for almost two decades.

Its Time for Our Next Franchise QB and He Needs to Be Picked at #1 like Kosar ...

Probably Bernie, and he isn't a HOF player. Sipe was closer.

Otto was a nfl champion qb. Sipe was a mvp qb. Bernie was 1987 pro bowl player. that year he was in the club with Joe Montana, Jim Kelly, Dan Marino, John Elway...Neil somebody

Derick Anderson was our last pro bowl qb. Too bad he didnt build on it

I know in my lifetime as a fan we have not had one. That's a depressing thought.

This thread wreaks of the substance that causes great depression and sadness.

Frank Ryan?

#1 may not always mean a franchise QB, but it does give you the pick of the litter

Frank Ryan was not a Franchise QB. At the time, fans and sports writers wanted the Browns to get rid of him. It was felt as though Jim Brown carried the team, very similar to the way Adrian Peterson carried the Vikings, Gayle Saylers carried the Bears and Barry Sanders carried the Lions. Ryan was a supplement, not the Franchise. Once again, I ask the question, please define franchise Quarterback.

Frank Ryan was a part of the TEAM, not the main cog. There are many examples of team quarterbacks winning championships. Is a Franchise Quarterback a QB that the team can not win without ?? Food for thought .... Johnny Unitas, a GOAT, was not a Franchise Quarterback. His team could win with a backup, even with a halfback playing his position. Andrew Luck is a Franchise Quarterback, his team can not win without him.

Was Bernie Kosar? I was not old enough to remember him (just barely remember knowing of him), but it's been an argument in my family. Some say he definitely was a FQB, others say that he was an overachiever, tough guy, smart, but not in the same class as FQB's

I wonder if anything has been funny to him since he left — or was it all just us? Did turn in what had to have been one of the worst Pro Bowl showings ever.

Bernie was most definitely our last franchise QB.

Agreed

One could argue that it's Tim Couch.

I don't buy the hoopla that he was a bust #1 overall pick. He is probably the worst managed QB in the history of the game. He came to a bad situation on an expansion team.

Busts don't lead teams to the playoffs. Without Couch in 2002 we don't make the playoffs.

I think he's still the only quarterback in history of the game to win two games as time expired with 50+ yd TD passes.

Getting us to the playoffs in 2002 was a minor miracle.

I believe Tim Couch could have been a good QB for us. He just took such a beating because we put no one good in front and around him. Because of injuries he was also rushed and played too soon. I'd like to add I believe DK was put in too soon. He was no where near ready and everyone, especially DK, payed for it.

Bernie completed a high percentage of his passes. However, he only broke the 20 TD mark one time in his career, that being in his 3rd year, and he often had a half or more INT to TD passes.

He was a quality QB, but I don't know if I would compare him to franchise QBs of his era, Marino, Elway, Kelley, Esiason, Montana, and so forth.

Kosar was a high quality QB, but I don't think that he ever reached "franchise" level. (and it really pains me to say that)

Couch was nowhere near being franchise level.

I don't think Bernie was a true franchise qb in the mode of a Carson Wentz or Dan Marino but what he was asked to do in the Browns offense under multiple OCs he did well.
he made very intelligent decisions and took what the defense gave him. he was outstanding in ball distribution.
taking a team to the playoffs 5 years in a row is very difficult.
to go back to back years is not easy either
Tim Couch was never a franchise qb.
he didn't even start the whole season when the Browns did go.
his arm was wore out in Hal Mumme offense at UK.
a very bad team around him cause him to create bad habits and bad decisions in Cleveland
even when he was healthy he had no traits that made you think yep franchise qb here.
at best he was serviceable. he had game manager written all over him

I think you have a different definition for franchise QB than I do. Your definition of franchise QB seems to be at or close to HoF QB (the names you had for your comparisons made me think this).

IMO, the bar to clear to be considered a franchise QB is much lower. Basically, you just have to be good enough to keep your GM from searching and investing high in your position. That would make the following guys fQBs (imo)...

Tannehill
Garrapolo
Stafford


Those are guys that have played well enough to prevent their respective GMs from going out and spending big on the QB position (Garrapolo is debatable, since he just got signed).

I hope u get your dream bone ... i really do ...

I think that there has to be a certain level of continuous high level play for a QB to reach "franchise" level. While I respect what Kosar did, I don't know that he hits the "franchise" category.

Your statement of the surrounding cast and O philosophy is is what makes a franchise QB. Bernie could have a much better and longer career had he had HCs who weren't DCs previous to becoming HC or delegate O responsibilty to a OC and D responsibility To DC and understood O is to score points TDs first add some FGs,milk clock passing and running ball w/balanced attack and D is to prevent opponent from moving chains,scoring TDs,3 and out get ball to ST then to O. Had we retained Lindy Infante as Marty's OC maybe Bernie stats could have been better with more freedom and imamagination game plans. Marty,Bud and Belicheck were all conservative,thought O was tango ball--run,run,pass,did not address OL or utilise playmakers talents,did not draft O wisely.

Playing devil's advocate...roughly .500 winning percentage, 58.8% completion, roughly 82 rating for his Browns career. I know the NFL has become a passing league, but a season with those numbers that'd have put him in the 21st-25th best QB last season. Again, just playing devil's advocate.

and 3 AFC Championship games...

I don't think of Wentz as a franchise QB yet. He has proven nothing. He has been good, yes. But Foles took them through the playoffs and won the Superbowl.

To me, a franchise qb is someone who can put the team on his back and lead them to tough wins and playoff caliber football over multiple seasons. Bernie was a franchise quarterback. Give me another Bernie and I will be one happy camper.

sure, but name a QB that hasn't had a team age. IMHO the only way to look at a player is to see his whole body of work.

Shouldn't a franchise QB make the whole team better, or transcend the limitations of the team (within reason)?

Don't get me wrong, I think he was a good QB. But he had a strong team around him early on, which I think made him better. When the team got worse, so did he, despite being only in his late 20s.

That's true, but if we applied Kosar's number to another QB, would we call that QB a franchise QB? I don't think so.

Kosar helped this team have a few really good years in a row. He was a component, a good player, but not a franchise level QB. To me, that is a QB who elevates his team to greatness, for an extended period of time, based on his own ability. I listed others I think of, in that era, as franchise QBs. Kosar was very good, but I don't pput him in that franchise level.

Would those mid 80s teams be considered good because of Bernie or because of the other 21 people? In other words, insert another QB and is there a chance they still make the AFC Title games?

I honestly would not know

Bernie was the last. He was a legit top 10 QB



Since then, just guys.

It depends on who the other QB is. I would have loved to have seen Boomer there.

Bernie was a franchise quarterback because he WAS the Cleveland Browns! From the moment he took the field in his first regular-season game until the last one where his last pass as a Brown was a 40-yard touchdown to Michael Jackson. Let us not forget he was the QB that threw the TD pass to finally break the Three Rivers Jynx! Browns fans LOVED Bernie and he loved them. Hell, he still does.

To me a franchise QB is about more than winning, it's about becoming the face, heart, and soul of a team and it's fanbase. Bernie Kosar was all of that and more. Wasn't his fault our defense gave up a 97-yard drive. Wasn't his fault Byner fumbled!

One could argue that it is Tim Couch

You are correct, the number wiuld be "ONE" arguing that...

Bernie WAS a Franchise QB. No doubt in my mind at all.
Couch was our last franchise QB.

The difference is that Bernie was a very good QB. Way better than Couch. Couch however did get a raw deal playing on all those teams with no talent. If Tom Brady was surrounded with the same talent Coach was he would have been a bust in the NFL