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Not much has been said about the QBs in this draft, we need to amp it up a little.  I want Rosen at #1 and I'll be slightly disappointed if we go another route. This Josh Allen talk worries me, btw & I sure as hell hope we don't take him. I'd much rather have Darnold, or even Mayfield.
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Yeah, I'm kinda surprised we haven't seen a lot of talk about the quarterbacks in the draft. I'm with you in regards to Allen. I'd take ROSEN or Darnold over him, but not over Mayfield.
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Jim Mora coached the Falcons when I lived in Atlanta.
So I am familiar with him. He is an extremely detailed person to the point of fanatic about it. He plans everything to last the detail.
His comment about the Browns should draft Darnold is not off hand. It is not like he was unprepared for that question.
I really found that strange.
I would be happy with either guy. My preference is Darnold.
But that aside.
Mora is tight with Rosen. He has known him since he was fourteen. It's not like they have not talked about his future and where he would like to go. And what would be the best fit.
I don't buy the blue collar BS.
The only thing I can up with is the media market of New York and the commercial opportunities. As far playing for the Giants of course he would sit Rosen behind Eli.
The Jet's he might be the starter.
It's not like the Giants or Jets are that much better off than the Browns.
He has also made a comment about Rosen going to the right coaching staff. Giants, Jets, Browns what team is the right fit for Rosen?
Weird to me. I really do not understand. There had to be some kind of motive?
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He has also made a comment about Rosen going to the right coaching staff. Giants, Jets, Browns what team is the right fit for Rosen?
Weird to me. I really do not understand. There had to be some kind of motive? Maybe he's worreid about how Rosen matches up with Todd Haley. That or like you said, Rosen wants to go to the big media market
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I just had to comment on something that I saw on the other Rosen thread I found a little comical. Something to the effect that because Rosen is so polished now, that he's almost reached his ceiling. That's hilarious!
I'm going to try to translate exactly how that sounds.........
In Rosen's life he has used the time he has had to improve at his craft better than anyone else in this draft class. To this point he is the most ready NFL QB in this draft. He is the prototypical, pocket, NFL QB. He's everything you look for in an NFL QB. He can read defenses pre and post snap. The obstacles that many draft picks never seem to master. He has played in an NFL offense that has him best prepared to transition to the NFL.
Now so far this seems to be pretty much agreed on. Here's the part that doesn't make any sense.
That has NOTHING to do with a made up term about ceiling. When you are in school and someone is the best student in the school, you don't suddenly believe his future potential is less than lower rated students whose grades aren't quite as high. You believe that student has the most potential moving forward. People don't make up terms that indicate that the student who has made the most of his education will suddenly be surpassed because Sam or Baker look like they may turn out to be smarter at some juncture down the road.
Each of these QB's have lived about the same amount of time. Each has worked as hard as they possibly can at their craft. Each has arrived at where they are now based on how well they have learned their craft.
Trying to act like being the best at your position somehow means that you are limited by that moving forward is fools gold. What it means is you are the most talented and have been the very best student of the game to get where you are now. The very qualities you need in a QB moving from the NCAA to the NFL.
Trying to predict the future is fine if you're Miss Cleo, but trying to say that the very best will somehow make others better than him in the future is nothing but grasping at straws. Give me the kid that's proven he's made the most of his opportunities and that I know fits the mold.
You can have the leftovers and hope.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I watched that interview. I really think its because Rosen is more like Eli personality wise. Neither seem to get too excited and can even be a little too laid back ( machine like ). Sam IS more blue collar and gritty it appears to me.. A lot of it has to do with their background and how they got to where they are now. Mayfield is at the other end of the Spectrum. They can all work anywhere.. Its just perception of how they seem to fit in certain towns.
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Shhh.. Don't interrupt them. They're busy reading tea leaves.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Less than 5 weeks to the draft and FINALLY a QB thread!
Hope I'm not changing the subject too drastically but my only beef with Rosen, and I've read others saying the same, is the concussions. Other than that, I'd have NO problem drafting him # 1.
I am wondering if anyone knows (I am NOT going to do this research. LOL) whether or not time spent with no contact would lessen the likelihood of him suffering more concussions. Meaning would he, by sitting and learning his entire first season on a new team with ZERO play time in real games, be less likely to have another concussion than if he were to get the start early in the season due to the vet getting hurt.
Anyone know anything about concussions and what is known through research conducted so far?
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Less than 5 weeks to the draft and FINALLY a QB thread!
Hope I'm not changing the subject too drastically but my only beef with Rosen, and I've read others saying the same, is the concussions. Other than that, I'd have NO problem drafting him # 1.
I am wondering if anyone knows (I am NOT going to do this research. LOL) whether or not time spent with no contact would lessen the likelihood of him suffering more concussions. Meaning would he, by sitting and learning his entire first season on a new team with ZERO play time in real games, be less likely to have another concussion than if he were to get the start early in the season due to the vet getting hurt.
Anyone know anything about concussions and what is known through research conducted so far? I don't know enough about concussions to answer that, and unfortunately I don't think scientists and doctors do either. But that would be fantastic if it were true that the longer you rested the less likely you'd receive another.
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That or like you said, Rosen wants to go to the big media market They are all big media markets. It's the NFL. Drew Brees plays in New Orleans and has commercials up the wazoo. Same with Aaron Rodgers and Green Bay.
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They are all big media markets. It's the NFL. Drew Brees plays in New Orleans and has commercials up the wazoo. Same with Aaron Rodgers and Green Bay. Surely, but you can start making money before you hit that kind of status in NYC. Either way, this certainly makes it seem like Rosen wants to go to NYC. Mora spoke glowingly of him earlier this year, after Chip Kelly was hired. I don't buy the, Mora doesn't like Rosen. He was talking about how Rosen hangs out at his house. Instead, I think that this is a calculated discussion that Rosen had with him. This was calculated. So Rosen doesn't want to come here. Either A) Fear of potential conflict with Haley/lack of stability with the Browns or B) He wants to be in New York City. Which is understandable. Big city, lots to do/be part of, and potential endorsement deals on the biggest stage
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j/c...man this Josh Allen talk is just ridiculous.
Mel Kiper is taking a lot of heat from other analysts in his Mock#3 where he has Allen going to #1, I miss read it as I saw Josh...and just assumed it was Josh Rosen and I'm like Oh, Ok thats good...then I reviewed the list and say woah that is absurd. He also claims its not his choice but what he has been getting from his sources.
I think he has no sources and its probably Grossi feeding him possibly so he can sabotage Kiper lol 
I hope its Mayfield, but if not then Darnold or even Josh Rosen. All 3 are going to have excellent careers in the NFL and it will actually be talked about for years as there never was a QB class that will have this much success.
jmho
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You are reading too much into it.
My saying that Jim Mora doesn't like Rosen didn't have anything to do with his comment on NFL Network. It was more to do with Rosen's time at UCLA.
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Accept for this........ “The NFL is a very daunting organization,” he replied. “Every team you go to has its own unique set of challenges. The Browns have their unique set of their own challenges and every team has their own, so wherever I end up, I’m excited to take on those challenges and overcome some obstacles.” “To that report, I don’t really know anything about Cleveland,” Rosen said during the NFL Scouting Combine at the Indiana Convention Center. “I’ve never been there, haven’t really talked to their coaching staff yet, have a meeting with them tonight, so it’s impossible to formulate opinions when you haven’t really done any research on the actual place. So I’m probably going to visit there, hang out with them, then whoever picks me, I’ll be excited to play for whoever wants to.” https://www.ohio.com/akron/sports/browns...-some-obstacles
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Oh, don't worry about me. I'm a Rosen fan. Don't really care what Rosen thinks. He can come play for the Browns whether he wants to or not.
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Josh Allen is a different story.
Drafting him is like playing Russian roulette.
Your betting that he overcomes a lot of bad film. Where there are plenty of bad decisions and inconsistent accuracy.
Then there are the wow plays that are spectacular.
I hope they don't take the risk.
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j/c...man this Josh Allen talk is just ridiculous.
Mel Kiper is taking a lot of heat from other analysts in his Mock#3 where he has Allen going to #1, I miss read it as I saw Josh...and just assumed it was Josh Rosen and I'm like Oh, Ok thats good...then I reviewed the list and say woah that is absurd. He also claims its not his choice but what he has been getting from his sources. I wonder if it's just a smoke screen. Trying to get some interest in Josh Allen as the number 4 pick or something. I think most likely, what the majority of folks are saying, will be the case. 1) Sam Darnold I think Josh Rosen will probably go Giants at 2. And Baker Mayfield or Josh Allen will go 3 to the Jets. And I think 4 will probably be us with Bradley Chubb (although I'd prefer Barkley) I've been sort of panicking about the idea of Josh Allen coming to the Browns at 1, but as some have said earlier, just gotta have faith in John Dorsey and the organization. They all have a better idea than I do. Listening to Hue's interview with Adam Schefter today, it sounded like Hue liked Baker Mayfield and Sam Darnold. Just a different wording of traits when describing the four QBs. Allen, he basically hyped up his size and arm. Darold he called gritty and tough. Mayfield he called a leader. And Rosen he called very intelligent. If i get off by butt and go to my phone I'll find it. I hear these rumors and start panicking. But I listen to Browns Daily and stuff like that and it makes me think that we'll be drafting Sam Darnold or Mayfield, which I can at least understand.
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I just can't see Mayfield over Rosen or Darnold.
He has qualities but I can see how he is better than those guys.
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I can just see if the Browns take Darnold at 1, watching Mayfield having a really great career with some other team, Denver, or the Jets, or Buffalo or anyone.
I think he has the highest ceiling.
Rosen, Darnold, ... Mayfield.
Can I reasonably believe the guy is one of the top 20, (top 10) quarterbacks in the entire world; or; and or will be 3-5 years from now too?
Can I reasonably suspect that the guy is going to be the next one sort of like Brady Quinn, just good enough to hang around and mess up the decision to get an upgrade while never really being "good".
I worry about Rosen and Darnold,
I like Baker Mayfield:
I like Mason Rudolph too, for some reason.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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I think he has the highest ceiling. I'd question this statement. You have Darnold who is only 20, you have Rosen who is already very polished, and you have Allen who is just starting to see benefits from tier one coaching. Mayfield is a 5th year senior. When I think of highest ceilings and future potential, Mayfield's isn't even the third name that comes to mind.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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and you have Allen who is just starting to see benefits from tier one coaching. Was Allen's coaching any different than Carson Wentz's? Cause from my understanding, they had the same coach. How come when I watched Carson Wentz at NDSU two years ago (and did my research on him), he looked a lot better than Allen. I mean, they had the same coaching after-all
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and you have Allen who is just starting to see benefits from tier one coaching. Was Allen's coaching any different than Carson Wentz's? Cause from my understanding, they had the same coach. How come when I watched Carson Wentz at NDSU two years ago (and did my research on him), he looked a lot better than Allen. I mean, they had the same coaching after-all I'm refering to the strides he's made since the senior bowl. He's clearly worked on and been coached up on certain issues since the end of the season. I won't pretend to know why he wasn't coached better in college.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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I'm refering to the strides he's made since the senior bowl. He's clearly worked on and been coached up on certain issues since the end of the season. I won't pretend to know why he wasn't coached better in college. And this is the issue. We have no idea how any of that will translate to the actual games. Not one clue. When the pressures on. Terrell Suggs is bearing down on you, you have to quickly make the correct read and get rid of it. Cause we might see some improvements at the tailored, structured pro-day verses what he was doing at the senior bowl, verses what he was doing at school. But we really don't know until it's actually done in a real situation. What they're paid to do. Until then, we don't really know if Allen's Ceiling is even better than Mayfield's floor. I think Baker has room to improve just like everybody else. Josh definitely has a ton of potential, but he's a huge risk in my book. If he's able to be coached up and can improve big-time. Become more accurate, learn how to make NFL Reads, then he could really be something. Lots of ifs. And we don't even know how receptive he is to this coaching until we see it in a game situation
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How many passes were completed 70 yards downfield during the 2017 season?
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So you believe Baker Mayfield has the highest ceiling? Or are you simply saying Mayfield's ceiling is possibly higher than Allen's? I'm not sure what you're driving at. I stated when it came to upside, I don't see the 5th year senior as the first, or even third guy to come to mind. If you don't agree, no biggie.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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I wanted to re-listen to the Mora interview before posting this but I cannot seem to locate it.
From recall, the thing that caught my eye and gave me concern was the comment that he made about Josh needing to learn to spend after hours doing film study.
I apologize that I cannot give the exact quote. But this was the sentiment I got from his statement.
Gives me concern that he doesn't do this already.
If someone can re-post that video in this thread, I will re-atch and give the time stamp.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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Ceiling does that mean age n experience negates ceiling.
Since Mayfield my guy I will talk for him. Lest we forget he walked on n did what he had to do what he did to become a great QB.
Now he enters a new test, to become a great NFL QB...just who will persevere and make themselves successful, this kid has a track record. Well I consider that a ceiling I cannot see anyone working harder for that success. Kid has all the tools I see height as the only talked up negative. But is it really a negative. It was said to be one in college, how did that turn out. I like his ceiling as an NFL QB.
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I'm saying he's older and has had the most time doing what he's doing, more than the others. It's not an indictment against him, I happen to think he'll do well in the NFL but maybe we've seen who he is and what he's going to be. Darnold, on the other hand, is only 20. Who knows what his ceiling is?
I'll write this once more then I'm moving on. When I think of highest ceiling, Mayfield isn't the first one to come to mind. Or even the third.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Allen in my opinion has the highest ceiling.
I mean the guy is 6'5" 235 lbs. He can run. Has good speed. Don't need to talk about his arm.
He is a good leader. He is very coachable. Everyone says he is bright. Loves the game.
He has improved in every stage along the way.
He has shown touch. He is working on footwork which was the root of his problems with his accuracy. All reports say he will benefit greatly from being a pro with true talent around him.
If this guy put its all together. He will be the best player in this draft.
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ssssh - don't let petey dangerous hear that.
Allen has more upside than any QB in this draft.
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Still there is no way I take him over Rosen or Darnold.
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You might not, but Dorsey might.
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The more we dig into our QB data and the aspects that remain stable year to year, everything points back to:
Playing well from a clean pocket
Throwing accurately to open receivers
The "easy" stuff is actually the most important part of QB evaluation
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I want ahh, I want a guy taken at #1, or I want a Qb they'd take,
To have had a good bowl game, to, so , in interest of convincing MYSELF that Rosen is/ can be, a guy , and maybe I'm missing something,
I take it upon myself to check out his previous bowl games, as I remember he didn't play in this years bowl game.
So a little Google search of Rosen and his bowl game and this is what I found out
He didnt' win a blasted road game last year!!! 6-5, 6-0 at home, 0-5 on the road. hmm.
He was only 3-3 the year before, 2-1 home, 1-2, the road, and no bowl game.
But 3 seasons ago, Rosen won the Foster Farms bowl against, Nebr?? I forget, it was last night...
I get to listen to Espn hosts rave, pipe dream, and remeneicse about how Baker Mayfield is going to transform the ny jets, and get good about when Tom Brady retires, but there's no way he's good enough to be a Brown, or no reports he'd end up a Brown.
Listening about how every team and their grandmother is going to somehow land Mayfield and celebrate like they struck gold, how he's going to change the fortunes of franchises from
Denver to, the Jets, maybe the Giants, Buffalo, or whomever,
makes me just sick , that the Browns would end up with the next Brady Quinn type, I mean how hard is it to take a look and say,
Does this guy look like one of the very best Qb's in the entire world, and we now have a top 10 Qb in the entire NFL,
or on the other hand, we got a guy who can fill the position but he in no way could be argued to be one of the top 50 qb's in the entire world and isn't in the top 30 qb's in the NFL.
And I'm of the mind set, that if I"M Wrong, then Prove me Wrong!
And I'll get on Board! But I want the best (best) Guy!
I want the Best, dawgtalkers suspension, Guy!
So Show me, show me where I'm wrong.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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I just had to comment on something that I saw on the other Rosen thread I found a little comical. Something to the effect that because Rosen is so polished now, that he's almost reached his ceiling. That's hilarious!
I'm going to try to translate exactly how that sounds.........
In Rosen's life he has used the time he has had to improve at his craft better than anyone else in this draft class. To this point he is the most ready NFL QB in this draft. He is the prototypical, pocket, NFL QB. He's everything you look for in an NFL QB. He can read defenses pre and post snap. The obstacles that many draft picks never seem to master. He has played in an NFL offense that has him best prepared to transition to the NFL.
Now so far this seems to be pretty much agreed on. Here's the part that doesn't make any sense.
That has NOTHING to do with a made up term about ceiling. When you are in school and someone is the best student in the school, you don't suddenly believe his future potential is less than lower rated students whose grades aren't quite as high. You believe that student has the most potential moving forward. People don't make up terms that indicate that the student who has made the most of his education will suddenly be surpassed because Sam or Baker look like they may turn out to be smarter at some juncture down the road.
Each of these QB's have lived about the same amount of time. Each has worked as hard as they possibly can at their craft. Each has arrived at where they are now based on how well they have learned their craft.
Trying to act like being the best at your position somehow means that you are limited by that moving forward is fools gold. What it means is you are the most talented and have been the very best student of the game to get where you are now. The very qualities you need in a QB moving from the NCAA to the NFL.
Trying to predict the future is fine if you're Miss Cleo, but trying to say that the very best will somehow make others better than him in the future is nothing but grasping at straws. Give me the kid that's proven he's made the most of his opportunities and that I know fits the mold.
You can have the leftovers and hope.
I've read this post, and I get the point it's making. Rosen, he's smarter, he's better, he understands the game, maybe he's shown he can figure it out, with his mind and brain and "knows" things. ..(and knows where to go with the ball, and has the arm, and makes all the reads, and is accurate, and has learned a pro playbook maybe, all the thing's I've been reading from the start.) And I'll counter with this. Current NFL rules give more weight in tie breakers and what not, to a Coin flip, then they do to the IQ test of your quarterback, ^ which is to say: Eventually, it has to show up in on the field results, So where is it, Where are the on the field results that show me this guy is the best of the best guy.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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I am a believer that Josh Rosen is one of the QB's that will lead the next crop of high profile QB's for the next 10 years.
He has a strange mix of Ryan/Brady/Peyton Manning.
I don't know why/how we are over thinking Josh Rosen?
Don't get me wrong... Darnold has potential.Just not Rosen potential.
Rosen is just one of those guys we can't miss on if we pick him.
sitting for a year or two will only help his "concussion" concerns and really consume the playbook and perfect it.
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 4,041
Hall of Famer
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Maybe an actual football conversation will ensure...... Like with all these guys Rosen has his strengths and his flaws on the field. I don't put much credence into 3rd hand and 4th hand (at best) accounts of his "personality". Best accuracy in this class. Most experience throwing pro-style concepts. Most experience going through his reads/progressions. Like you I believe that IF a QB is going to mentioned as a vastly superior passer to the other prospects then it has to manifest itself on tape and in production. When I watch Rosen I see a QB that works well within the confines of the playcall. When the protection is good and he makes the right read and the receivers are good then things are good. However; I also see a QB that doesn't handle pressure, especially pressure from free rushers, very well. A metric that speaks specifically to Rosen's reactions to pressure on tape:  The best passer is rates outs the worst against pressure. When watching tape often times the throw-aways under pressure and the sacks under pressure are just chalked up "the defense won". But those handful of plays where the QB can create 'time and space' from a free rusher can be the difference in extending a drive and winning a game. But enough on Rosen's reaction to pressure. I would like for Rosen's polish as passer to be more evident in his production. When it comes to QB rating the non-spread QBs are merely single % points apart: Rosen 147, Darnold 148 and Jackson 146. There isn't as wide of delta as I would expect. If you look at advanced stats like PFF overall grades or ESPN QBR Rosen comes in a distant 3rd. Likewise for Redzone efficiency:    Rosen's wheelhouse where he comes on 1st is:  Non-pressured. Non-play action passing. Rosen is also makes fewer errors in the drop back passing game in terms of accuracy and decision making:  Rosen also does a good job in getting the ball out quick:  I like Rosen. There is something I like about a lot of these QB prospects. I just don't see enough from Rosen's strengths to offset his weaknesses (vs pressure and in the redzone) especially when you factor in the playmaking aspects that Jackson, Darnold and Mayfield bring.
Last edited by edromeo; 03/29/18 11:17 PM.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 |
QB has a history of 50/50 success rate. Point is there is no such animal as a sure thing any more. Look at Luck, look at Bradford. Both more injury related in their failures.
I happen to think this draft is pretty unique in that I (all opinion) think barring injuries we are going to have 3 very successful NFL QBs.
Mayfield
Darnold
Rosen
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 5,006
Hall of Famer
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Passing TDs
Mayfield 43 td
Mason 37 td
Jackson 27 td
Rosen 26 td
Darnold 26 td
Allen 16 td
Rushing TDs
Jackson 18
Mason 10
Mayfield 5
Darnold 5
Allen 5
Rosen 2
Total Points
Mayfield 48 tds for 288 points
Mason 47 tds for 282 points
Jackson 45 tds for 270 points
Darnold 31 tds for 186
Rosen 31 tds for 186
Allen 21 tds for 126
Special Note
Jackson had 18 rushing tds. That means he has as many rushing tds as Saquan and more rushing tds than allen threw for tds. Simply Amazing. Mason was the next best rushing QB with 10 rushing tds.
About red zone statistics. One thing I don't see there is how often they were IN the redzone. I mean your stats make a case that Allen is great in the redzone and that Rosen is not. Yet Rosen scores almost double the TDs. I mean if Allen is hardly ever IN the redzone of course it's easy to skew the stats with him doing well the few times that he is actually there.
I'll take QBs who actually move the ball and score points over Allen who hax high percentages because he has so few attempts in the redzone. When you look at who can score the most points in any situation and can make decisions the fastest the clear winner is Mason Rudolph.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 |
QB rushing TDs something that just will not be seen in NFL as it was in college.
But I do agree, Mayfield is the best darn QB in this draft
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums The Archives 2018 NFL Season 2018 NFL Draft Josh Rosen Pt. 2
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