QB rushing TDs something that just will not be seen in NFL as it was in college.
But I do agree, Mayfield is the best darn QB in this draft
If only he weren't the runt of the litter or get beat up by cops while being stupid lol =P
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
... About red zone statistics. One thing I don't see there is how often they were IN the redzone. I mean your stats make a case that Allen is great in the redzone and that Rosen is not. Yet Rosen scores almost double the TDs. I mean if Allen is hardly ever IN the redzone of course it's easy to skew the stats with him doing well the few times that he is actually there.
'My' stats don't make any case they relay information. What you do with/how you spin the information is your business....the pimping and begging of stats is you guys wheelhouse.
But, you make a good point..... Why don't you tell us about how often the QBs were IN the RZ...instead of just speculating based on assumption?
QB has a history of 50/50 success rate. Point is there is no such animal as a sure thing any more. Look at Luck, look at Bradford. Both more injury related in their failures.
I happen to think this draft is pretty unique in that I (all opinion) think barring injuries we are going to have 3 very successful NFL QBs.
Mayfield Darnold Rosen
everything we post is pretty much an opinion that isn't a stat
I would agree that Mayfield Darnold and Rosen will be successful. I just believe that Rosen looks like that kid that's a can't miss. As long as we keep his jersey clean and he doesn't bite the injury bug.
obviously, not I'm posting my opinion of the lotto numbers on here. As far as Rosen and Darnold go... I think Rosen has more potential and is far more polished.
... About red zone statistics. One thing I don't see there is how often they were IN the redzone. I mean your stats make a case that Allen is great in the redzone and that Rosen is not. Yet Rosen scores almost double the TDs. I mean if Allen is hardly ever IN the redzone of course it's easy to skew the stats with him doing well the few times that he is actually there.
'My' stats don't make any case they relay information. What you do with/how you spin the information is your business....the pimping and begging of stats is you guys wheelhouse.
But, you make a good point..... Why don't you tell us about how often the QBs were IN the RZ...instead of just speculating based on assumption?
I don't seem to have access of just pure redzone attempt stats since I don't pay for any sites. It's tricky using the stats pff gives us because it's been filtered by them. For instance if Allen's WR are really bad and drop a lot of passes those will be erased and give him high numbers even though he didn't accomplish much. Meanwhile the other QBs who have better WRs don't drop them and also have a lot more attempts so it brings down the numbers your counting against the QB more. It's very hard to judge when a ball should be caught or not by a WR so I feel it's a very subjective stat. It would be useful to be able to compare the subjective stat to the raw stat with no filters.
Even still, I prefer the QB who gets results by scoring TDs. I mean if he scores from 30 yards away that won't count in your redzone stat but it's pretty darn great to have. I'll take the QB who just points on the board however he can. Allen scores less points passing the mediocre running backs running the ball. Why would I ever want that as my franchise QB pick at #1?
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
... About red zone statistics. One thing I don't see there is how often they were IN the redzone. I mean your stats make a case that Allen is great in the redzone and that Rosen is not. Yet Rosen scores almost double the TDs. I mean if Allen is hardly ever IN the redzone of course it's easy to skew the stats with him doing well the few times that he is actually there.
'My' stats don't make any case they relay information. What you do with/how you spin the information is your business....the pimping and begging of stats is you guys wheelhouse.
But, you make a good point..... Why don't you tell us about how often the QBs were IN the RZ...instead of just speculating based on assumption?
I don't seem to have access of just pure redzone attempt stats since I don't pay for any sites. It's tricky using the stats pff gives us because it's been filtered by them.
You don't need PFF to look up the stats you mentioned. You just need to stop being lazy and put in a little work. Or don't put in the effort, which is fine, but if you're not going to put in the effort don't turn around and sharp shot information with nothing other then unfounded speculation.
obviously, not I'm posting my opinion of the lotto numbers on here. As far as Rosen and Darnold go... I think Rosen has more potential and is far more polished.
He's definitely more polished, as far as potential goes, who knows? But I'm really more interested in the lotto numbers. Come on, man, cough em up.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski
"Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield
... About red zone statistics. One thing I don't see there is how often they were IN the redzone. I mean your stats make a case that Allen is great in the redzone and that Rosen is not. Yet Rosen scores almost double the TDs. I mean if Allen is hardly ever IN the redzone of course it's easy to skew the stats with him doing well the few times that he is actually there.
'My' stats don't make any case they relay information. What you do with/how you spin the information is your business....the pimping and begging of stats is you guys wheelhouse.
But, you make a good point..... Why don't you tell us about how often the QBs were IN the RZ...instead of just speculating based on assumption?
I don't seem to have access of just pure redzone attempt stats since I don't pay for any sites. It's tricky using the stats pff gives us because it's been filtered by them.
You don't need PFF to look up the stats you mentioned. You just need to stop being lazy and put in a little work. Or don't put in the effort, which is fine, but if you're not going to put in the effort don't turn around and sharp shot information with nothing other then unfounded speculation.
I spent plenty of effort and found nothing. If you have the info put it up and stop being so condescending to those of us who can't afford to pay for stat sites or insider access. Until then since all I can do is speculate and wonder about it I will continue to do so whether you like it or not.
Let me be clear since text doesn't do well for tone of voice. I do appreciate the content you post and your desire to have good conversation about it. What I don't like is how you think posting it makes you somehow superior to others and gives you the right to look down on folks. Maybe I am reading you wrong and if so then I apologize but it is how you come off to me at times.
Don't get me wrong I am pretty arrogant myself. Then again I am usually right on QBs and offensive linemen. I don't claim to know the other positions nearly as well. This season I didn't spend much time on o-line though so if you notice I ain't said much. I have hundreds of hours in on QBs though and I am very confident in my opinions about this class.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
... About red zone statistics. One thing I don't see there is how often they were IN the redzone. I mean your stats make a case that Allen is great in the redzone and that Rosen is not. Yet Rosen scores almost double the TDs. I mean if Allen is hardly ever IN the redzone of course it's easy to skew the stats with him doing well the few times that he is actually there.
'My' stats don't make any case they relay information. What you do with/how you spin the information is your business....the pimping and begging of stats is you guys wheelhouse.
But, you make a good point..... Why don't you tell us about how often the QBs were IN the RZ...instead of just speculating based on assumption?
I don't seem to have access of just pure redzone attempt stats since I don't pay for any sites. It's tricky using the stats pff gives us because it's been filtered by them.
You don't need PFF to look up the stats you mentioned. You just need to stop being lazy and put in a little work. Or don't put in the effort, which is fine, but if you're not going to put in the effort don't turn around and sharp shot information with nothing other then unfounded speculation.
I spent plenty of effort and found nothing. If you have the info put it up and stop being so condescending to those of us who can't afford to pay for stat sites or insider access. Until then since all I can do is speculate and wonder about it I will continue to do so whether you like it or not.
Read the portion bolded in read in our previous exchange. Again, you're fabricating. The stats you are talking about are not on a pay site or insider access. I've already told you that. If you can't find RZ stats to support your claim then I don't know.....don't make the claim OR put in the work to support it. And seriously finding RZ stats for a QB isn't hard at all.
Quote:
What I don't like is how you think posting it makes you somehow superior to others and gives you the right to look down on folks. Maybe I am reading you wrong and if so then I apologize but it is how you come off to me at times.
Lol, is the internet message board the place to comment on our personal thoughts on others posting styles? I don't think so I don't engage in it. Maybe you should do the same?
I only know that I don't say stuff like this:
Quote:
I am usually right on QBs and offensive linemen.
All this back and forth over cherry pick speculating some stats. Yet no reply about the commentary on Rosen.
Rosen could turn out to be the next Dan Marino or the next Jay Cutler. My choice is Darnold who could be the next Elway or the next Bortles. Who can be sure? I want the Browns to get it right for once.
I just want a winner. We need players who can be part of the solution not part of the problem.
LIke I said Ed. I spent over an hour looking and didn't find any reliable redzone stats. You say it's easy to find so please provide them. All I was looking for is total times each QB went to the redzone.
If it's too hard for you to find too then just say so. Like I said, I looked and couldn't find it on NFL.com, espen, cbs, fox, rotoworld, or walter. Is there a non pay site that you recommend? I am sure there are plenty I have never heard of. I mean to be honest I don't stat dive that often and just rely on what I see during game footage.
Also to be clear it's not just about Allen but about Rosen too. Your using these stats to make an argument that Rosen is not the best choice for QB. Yet these same stats are showing Allen who barely even scored touchdowns is the better QB because he has a high redzone percentage.
I'll give another case. Mason Rudolph throws a lot of deep ball TDs that come from outside the redzone. He scores a lot of points that way because he has a very accurate deep ball. All those successful TDs won't show up in redzone efficiency because he never made it that far. He did didn't need to.
I think it's far more important to look at how often they score than to just look at redzone stats.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
I think it's far more important to look at how often they score than to just look at redzone stats.
I don't want to portray myself as a college football expert, but my impression of the Big 12 is of QB's playing pitch-and-catch with receivers running free over the middle of the field. In my - admittedly - limited exposure to the Big 12, I have had the feeling that I was watching 7-on-7 drills. That may be my ill-informed prejudice, but for that reason, my opinions of Mayfield and Rudolph are down-graded significantly.
If it's too hard for you to find too then just say so.
Lol. No it wouldn't be too hard for me. It's funny how you're trying to spin this on to me. But its not my argument its yours. Figure it out....
Originally Posted By: Razorthorns
LIke I said Ed. I spent over an hour looking and didn't find any reliable redzone stats. You say it's easy to find so please provide them. All I was looking for is total times each QB went to the redzone....Like I said, I looked and couldn't find it on NFL.com, espen, cbs, fox, rotoworld, or walter. Is there a non pay site that you recommend? I am sure there are plenty I have never heard of. I mean to be honest I don't stat dive that often and just rely on what I see during game footage.
Lol, you know me I don't ever look at game footage...i'm just diving for stats to look up and post for you. Lol.
Quote:
Also to be clear it's not just about Allen but about Rosen too. Your using these stats to make an argument that Rosen is not the best choice for QB.
My opinion on Rosen was posted long before PFF released the stats I posted. It just so happens that some of my observations are supported by their stats.
Quote:
Yet these same stats are showing Allen who barely even scored touchdowns is the better QB because he has a high redzone percentage.
And what does your interpretation (beggin) of the stats that have to do with me?
Quote:
I think it's far more important to look at how often they score than to just look at redzone stats.
Yet you can't post any support. And don't bother assuming you know my position on it because you don't. I'm just asking you to support your speculation.
Fine, I try to be nice. You continue to be rude. I'm done with you.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
Mora is a detail fanatic. He was the Falcons head coach when I lived there. When he interviewed for the job he showed up with an book about four inches thick.
Him saying the Browns should draft Darnold was no mistake. No way he didn't meet with Rosen and discuss future options.
That was a planned response. There was a reason behind it. It could only mean they would prefer playing in New York.
My hope is Darnold or Rosen. I don't like that Rosen seems to be getting pushed away from the Browns.
@ ~5:40 Cleveland question comes up, but the whole clip is a good listen
My 2 cents
Mora's comments are open for interpretation. It could be viewed as trying to steer Rosen to NY. It could be viewed as 'shot' at Rosen. It could be viewed as a stupid comment from a suspect coach. It could be viewed as a honest commentary about fit....that an outspoken QB that wore an eff Trump to Trump's golf course, QB fits better in NYC then Cleveland.
Its all speculative at this point.
But IF Dorsey wants Rosen he should draft him. IF Rosen doesn't want to go Cleveland then Rosen's agent/people will work that out.
I think it's far more important to look at how often they score than to just look at redzone stats.
I don't want to portray myself as a college football expert, but my impression of the Big 12 is of QB's playing pitch-and-catch with receivers running free over the middle of the field. In my - admittedly - limited exposure to the Big 12, I have had the feeling that I was watching 7-on-7 drills. That may be my ill-informed prejudice, but for that reason, my opinions of Mayfield and Rudolph are down-graded significantly.
I felt the very same way the first time I watched Sam Darnold, he was playing against ariz st. (maybe ariz)
Trying to watch, it was like, Good Gosh they do not play defense.
they weren't even playing efense not even fense
How can I try to judge if this quarterback is any good if the other team isn't even going to cover anybody.
So I feel the same way about Sam Darnold.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
I agree with you; this feels choreographed. Probably by Rosen and his agent.
I don't know if it goes that deep, but if so, all the more reason I don't want him.
Just a question for all. Let's say Rosen, or any other players for that matter, didn't want to play in Cleveland.
Why would it be such a big deal if they were truthful and they said so? Would that hurt their draft stock in some way? I don't think that would change the views of other teams if a player flat out said he wanted to play elsewhere.
As a fan, I would rather know right off the bat rather than the guy bolt at the first chance 4-5 years down the road.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
I think that it would hurt his stock with other teams. While it's certainly understandable why somebody would not pick Cleveland as their destination of choice, you want a QB with the attitude that they can come in and turn the franchise around. You don't want someone who shy's away from a challenge.
Am I perfect? No Am I trying to be a better person? Also no
Then just look at his Ohio State game and Georgia game, both excellent defenses see how he compared with other QBs.
Its a fair point that I can't refute. But still, in the totality of Mayfield's and Rudolph's careers, I feel their stats are skewed higher by what appears to be a lack of defense in that conference, and I was responding to Razor's point about redzone success rates.
I think it's far more important to look at how often they score than to just look at redzone stats.
I don't want to portray myself as a college football expert, but my impression of the Big 12 is of QB's playing pitch-and-catch with receivers running free over the middle of the field. In my - admittedly - limited exposure to the Big 12, I have had the feeling that I was watching 7-on-7 drills. That may be my ill-informed prejudice, but for that reason, my opinions of Mayfield and Rudolph are down-graded significantly.
It's a fair point to worry about the level of competition. It's one reason folks have trouble projecting QBs. Still it's not like they ONLY play in conference. When both Mason and Mayfield played against top conferences they still played great. I don't get hung up on level of competition that much because even the best teams are far below NFL level play. It's just unfair to expect kids who have limited amounts of time to practice and while being students to be at the level of men who grind it all day long all year long.
At that point you just watch the QB to see if they read the defense and react well to what they see because that shows a high football IQ. Then you look to see if the ball goes where they want it to in a reliable way. If the ball is not always reliable then you investigate WHY? It's usually either an issue where they have poor field vision or a flaw in their throwing technique which includes footwork.
If they are smart but have bad technique that is something you can fix if they are willing to work hard to fix it and you don't rush them to the field.
If they have trouble seeing the field well it won't matter how smart they are because if you can't see the information then you can't process it. While it's possible to improve field vision it's very hard to make big improvements at this stage of their life. It's kind of one of those things that you either have it or you don't. If you don't then you have a very low chance to succeed against NFL defenses.
Rosen, Mason, and Mayfield all have excellent field vision. They all have good accuracy. Rosen is obviously the most polished technique wise. Mayfield still gets the ball where he wants it though so that is all that matters. Mason will have to improve his footwork and his counter elbow to improve his ball velocity and short game accuracy.
I'm still watching more video before I decide on Darnold, Lamar, and Allen when it comes to field vision. Darnold has insanely good reaction time and processes things insanely fast but I think it overwhelms him at times and locks down his processes a bit and that is when he starts making mistakes. He also needs to fix his footwork a bit.
By all accounts, ALL of these QBs have great work ethics so I think they all have a chance to keep improving at the NFL level. The one I think can improve the most over time is Darnold because you can't train that awesome reaction time of his but you can improve his technique and decision making. It's also possible Allen could improve a lot but his accuracy issues are a huge red flag. Still with Allen that could have been a case where he was coached poorly and could improve quite a bit. I don't think project QBs should be taken at #1 overall though.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
You've convinced yourself that Rosen doesnt want to play in Cleveland.
It's one of many possible speculations from Mora's interview.
I think the more straight forward speculation is that Mora meant what he said. A guy that wears an eff trump hat is probably a better fit in NYC then Cleveland.
IF Rosen really doesn't want to go to Cleceland his agent-people will get the word out.
Then just look at his Ohio State game and Georgia game, both excellent defenses see how he compared with other QBs.
Its a fair point that I can't refute. But still, in the totality of Mayfield's and Rudolph's careers, I feel their stats are skewed higher by what appears to be a lack of defense in that conference, and I was responding to Razor's point about redzone success rates.
He didn't play all too well against Georgia or Ohio State. His RPO offense really took a lot of pressure off of him. Without that system, those games could've been very messy.
You've convinced yourself that Rosen doesnt want to play in Cleveland.
It's one of many possible speculations from Mora's interview.
I think the more straight forward speculation is that Mora meant what he said. A guy that wears an eff trump hat is probably a better fit in NYC then Cleveland.
IF Rosen really doesn't want to go to Cleceland his agent-people will get the word out.
Josh himself already did, allegedly...
'Josh Rosen doesn't want to play for Browns, could impact draft decision'
I'm sure you are aware of all this already, but sometimes ya gotta read between the lines - Rosen probably doesn't want to play here. I really think it's as simple as that.
Also I think you are vastly over estimating the influence the media has on NFL team decision making.
IF Rosen doesn't want to go to Cleveland his people will find a more concrete way of letting Cleveland decision makers know then through a very veiled media spot in which Rosen's former coach praises another QB.
Regardless I think Dorsey will choose the QB he thinks is best.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg)
As far as Rosen and Darnold go... I think Rosen has more potential and is far more polished.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
