DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum With his holdout, Quinn ventures down perilous path

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Was, is the key word here. When a true fanchise QB gets to camp that will be history!

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Exactly when will that be? Other supposed franchise QBs, Couch, Leaf, A. Smith, Mirer, Phipps, etc, etc...

Now from what I read most people that scout players for a living believe Quinn has the potential to be better than Frye but we probably shouldn't annoint him as a franchise QB until he plays in the NFL.

Lets be honest here with the money we are going to pay him compared to Frye and the draft position we took him compared to Frye, what does common sense tell ya!

Savage has no reason at all, none, to be unreasonable. He wants him in camp. It's his guy. he's offered every other player fair money. EVERY one.

this whole BS about getting starter money - what is Charlie getting? He's the actual starter. Last year and likely this year. I'm betting Quinn wants a bunch more. Chuck's keeping his mouth shut and playing football. Quinn is talking and playing . . . well, nothing.

I never said he would fail. I just said we shouldn't count our chickens before they hatch. I'll and one up you with

Brady Quinn, Cleveland Browns make progress in negotiations
Monday, August 06, 2007Mary Kay CabotPlain Dealer Reporter
The Browns have made some progress in negotiations for quarterback Brady Quinn and are now only about $500,000 apart in guaranteed money.

However, there are other issues holding up the deal, including the triggers for the incentive package.

The No. 22 overall pick, Quinn is seeking about $8 million in guaranteed money, same as the No. 20 overall pick, and the Browns have increased their guaranteed offer to about $7.5 million. Browns General Manager Phil Savage said Friday he was willing to pay a quarterback premium above the No. 22 slot to get Quinn into camp.

Originally, they offered the same guarantee as the No. 21 pick, who received $7.1 million.

The two sides have also made progress on the amount of playing time needed to trigger the escalators in the contract and the total amount of the incentive package. However, they still disagree on how to reach those incentives.

Agent Tom Condon wants Quinn to max out the contract through playing time only - by playing 55 percent of the snaps twice or 70 percent once in the first three years.

The Browns have essentially agreed to those numbers, but want Quinn to have to reach other milestones such as Pro Bowls to max out the deal. The total package is about $30 million over five years, including incentives.

The Browns have not yet taken up Condon's offer to come to Kansas City to try to hammer out the deal and are unlikely to do so.

To reach this Plain Dealer reporter:

mcabot@plaind.com, 216-999-4670

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/1186389488249411.xml&coll=2

Wake me when he signs, It's all growing very old for me, i'm not gonna read another artical or open another thread reguarding Brady Quinns contract, until it says signed on it.

We have players practicing every day getting ready for the season, I'll place my attention on them and cheer for them,

Go Browns......

Just Adding To The Craziness Clay

LOL...I know nothing against your artical or anybody,

I'm just old fashion, Earn your money first type of guy

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Ive been thinking the same thing Hope we are wrong!

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Your not wrong, and this kid have alot to prove,

Just because you strap on a orange helment, doesnt make you a real Cleveland Brown, thats earned, money cant buy it...

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Wake me when he signs, It's all growing very old for me

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That's pretty much where I'm at, too.

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Wake me when he signs, It's all growing very old for me

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That's pretty much where I'm at, too.

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I am actually to the piont where..........don't wake me up, just let me sleep and I'll find out when I wake up on my own.

what does common sense tell ya

Common sense tells me you've hitched your wagon to Brady Quinn. Just like you did with Couch. Let's just hope your objectivity "switch" isn't in the OFF position with Brady like it was with Tim when he finally gets in here....

The 2 sides need to get together and hammer this out. Condon should come to Berea. Savage needs to be here in case of an emergency (ala Bentley and the revolving door at Center a year ago).

Both sides need to bend a little and get this done. I understand it's business but media postering isn't getting it done.

Phil and Tom....get it done.

... I get a little confused ( Ok, a lot ) about who is who and who wants what ??? If I understand the situation ; The Browns have Randy's check book , yes ? Mr Tom wants a check form that check book written to BQ, yes ?
... Now Tom wants Uncle Phil to wait the rest of this week & then fly out to KC. to see if they can get a check out of Randy's check book , yes ?
... Seems to me if a man wants to sell something , he needs to drop my place of Biz, no ? I guess he might assume he has something I just have to have , or can't do without , maybe ? From strictly a biz point of view this whole thing is a little basakwards , yes ?

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Was, is the key word here. When a true fanchise QB gets to camp that will be history!

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Sounds like an opinion to me. The fact is until someone else starts, Frye is still the starter. Maybe it won't be that way Sept. 9th, but I'll put money on Quinn not be the starter that day.

I'm just backing the guys we have, you sound like you are hitching your hopes on a question mark. He didn't look all that great in the spring at the OTAs, and after missing two weeks of working with the WRs, I can't believe he will be any better when he signs.
He must still learn the offense, and I doubt they will be giving him much time with the first team, considering gameplanning should start soon since the offense is already installed.
I'm not hoping he fails, quite the contrary, but I believe the people bashing Frye and Anderson are wrong to do so. Actions are louder than words. These guys may be struggling with the new offense being installed, but I hardly think they are the bums many posters are making them out to be. Frye wasn't great by any means in his first year as a starter, but to read what many are saying about him now, they act as if he is totally incompetant. IMO he actualy kept this team in a few games last year, where many will blame him for every loss.

j/c

Well one thing I have read is that Condon has been to Berea three times to negotiate. If that is factual,maybe he's tired of flying out here to..................................



......................................Just maybe he's looking for Phil to "make the trip this time around"?

I'm not taking sides. But this whole thing is posturing. Where they meet,what they say to the media,etc.......

IMO- Phil didn't want to "throw Brady to the wolves" untill this OL gels and can work smoothly as a unit. That's probably going to be about midway point in the season anyway. At the earliest is my guess.

This isn't,from everything I've read,going to be a basic,straight ahead blocking scheme. I think Phil has looked at the odds of "throwing kids to the wolves" verses "giving them some clip board time" before you start them. And I don't think he had ANY intentions of starting Brady at the beginning of this season from the moment he was drafted.

Just look at the Anderson/Frye debates already brewing. What if Brady "had been in camp from day 1"? Can you imagine the pressure on the part of the fans and the media that would have been placed squarely in the lap of the FO under this scenario?

But look how it's played out? Brady isn't here. We can't start him right away. Who's fault is it now? According to this FO,it's Quinn/Condons.

But let me ask you honestly and realisticly,do you think escalaters based on "being the starter" would REALLY be worth quibbling over IF Phil felt it imparative that Quinn "start from day 1"? (supply side economics 101) There's NO DOUBT in my mind that "Phil sees Brady as our future". So he surely feels Brady is "worth the coin". And from my understanding,their pay requests aren't out of line with the type of incentives that Pennington and others have gotten. It's not "garunteed". Sure they're off "slightly" on the "garunteed money". But Phil stands to save millions and get "the real deal" at the same time with these "starter incentives". So if you're not in a rush to start the kid,why not play your hand out for a while?

But what does this scenario do for this FO? They won't be taking heat for not "starting Quinn right away". They aren't the ones "getting the heat" for it now and won't get any real heat untill mid-way into the season at least either. I bet Phil loves seeing his "plan come together"! And I can't say I blame him.


So I think it's a win/win for the Browns FO. They can "take their time" to get the BEST deal for our team. And in the end,accomplish what their goal was all along in the process. (not start Quinn too early) And let the ire from the fans and media for this lay squarely on the shoulders of Quinn/Condon.

I think Phil is being VERY SMART in the way he's handling it. This is working out like a charm for him! He's accomplishing his goals while applying the pressure and placing the blame in a great "misdirection play".

But at the same time,I think many are being far too gullible in buying this at face value.

JMHO

BTW- My scenario may sound like dirty pool. But it's really not. It's simply shrude business people doing what they do in negotiations.

Pit, you keep saying that you aren't taking sides, but keep saying it's because of the FO for Quinn not being signed yet.

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Just maybe he's looking for Phil to "make the trip this time around"?

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Are you serious. So when you have a job interview, do you demand the interviewer come to you?

It's nothing but posturing.

It's the "I've been there three times,now it's your turn" thing. Nothing more.

And since you're the "Mensa" here,why would Phil be in some "huge hurry" to sign this kid if he DOESN'T want to start him for a while? Would that make sense?

You would be doing the following...........................

a. Accepting a deal where you have to pay the kid quite a bit more money.

b. Having the fans and the media screaming for you to "start the kid now"! (yeah,that's real good for PR)


Now why on God's green earth would a sensible businessman want to do that?

You see it as me saying "It's Phils fault".

I think it's simply looking at the possibility it "could be his genious"!

I could be way off base. But when you add it all up,it would be very shrude,cunning and smart if that's Phil's strategy on this one.

See that's the thing Mensa,you didn't "break down my points" at all. I don't "fault" a man for using wisdom and all the tools at his disposal in a business deal where he accomplishes exactly what he sets out to do. I applaud it.

# 1 , I guess Tom or BQ. are not worried about loosing another week of Camp ! I mean if they want to meat again in KC. ???????

The whole thing just has a bad smell to it .. I don't care which party forgot to shower !

Just clicking...just look at the facts.

8 Atlanta (from Houston): Anderson, Jamaal DE 5 years $31M. $15.361M.
9 Miami: Ginn Jr., Ted WR, 5yrs, $$$ to be determined.
10 Houston (from Atlanta): Okoye, Amobi DT.6yrs (voidable after 5) $12.785 Mil in guarantees, $17.6Mil in max value.
11 San Francisco: Willis, Patrick ILB
12 Buffalo: Lynch, Marshawn RB 5 years $18.935M. $10.285M.
13 St. Louis: Carriker, Adam DE. 5yrs, $9.4mil in guarantees, $14.5mil
14 N.Y. Jets (from Carolina): Revis, Darrelle CB
15 Pittsburgh: Timmons, Lawrence OLB 5 years $15M. $8.053M.

Condon wants Quinn to achieve escalators making his contract worth 30 MIL $$$ Basically the value of #8 overall pick. No not the Guarantees but what does BQ have to do to achieve these. ONE SEASON take 70% of the snaps...basically be starter one season and play 11 games without getting hurt. This earns him doubling the Contract and we are closer to #15 right now without incentives. Just as close as we are to #21.

But its the escalators...Us we wish him to make the Pro-Bowl or for us to get deep in the Playoffs with him as the starter to jump start those escalators. Condon? Condon wants him to basically show up and achieve them...heck might as well just put them as part of the contract and don't call them escalators...Heck Frye already achieved those escalators. Thank Goodness Condon wasn't his agent

Condon is a turd and the sooner BQ understands this and sees we will not be dictated to like he's trying. Us go to KC...what an insult. Like he can't come to us - Savage doesn't have other work to do? This is so rediculous. So only the RAMs can be negotiated in a timely fashion - what a power move - he's got nothing on his plate but BQ yet we have to go to his Office. He's a Snake not to be trusted.

Hope Savage is smart and avoids any and all of his clients in the future.

JMHO

If we can't figure out he "is or isn't" the answer in the first three years,who's the moron then?

It's "not that difficult". If he isn't worthy of all of that "ungarunteed money" after three years,get rid of him. If he IS worth it,pay him.

All this emotional head banging is fruitless,pointless and counterproductive. But you'll have that from time to time.


I still say Phil never wanted to "start him early" anyway. Now he won't have to get treated the way so many are treating BQ now for his decision. Phil's in "no big hurry" and there's a reason why..................

Browns | Escalator clauses holding up Quinn deal
Mon, 6 Aug 2007 09:47:41 -0700

Len Pasquarelli, of ESPN.com, reports the Cleveland Browns and QB Brady Quinn have narrowed the gap over guaranteed money in contract negotiations, according to a source with knowledge of the bargaining process. However, the escalators are still the most significant sticking point. Quinn's agent, Tom Condon, has proposed that the escalators would be triggered, raising Quinn's base salaries in the final two years of what would be a five-year deal, if the quarterback reaches a 55-percent playing time level in any two of the first three seasons of the contract, or a level of 70 percent playing time in any one of the first three years. The Browns want the triggers to be more difficult to achieve. Under the plan proposed by the Quinn camp, the five-year contract would have a maximum value of roughly $30 million. If Quinn were to achieve the lowest-level escalators, the deal would be worth $20.25 million.


From KFFL.


This might already be on the board somewhere... Maybe even in this thread... but I'm not going through all the Quinn posts to look for it lol.

That's pretty much the message I've been getting.

If after year three,we plainly see he's not "the franchise QB" we'd hoped for,we can cut him and go in another direction. I think the "garunteed signing bonus is around 7.5 - 8 mil. Pro rate that is about 1.5 per year. So it would be a 3mil cap hit to cut him.

If he's shown cause to be "worthy of these escilaters" you keep him. He gets paid.

Now I'm not advocating Phil "takes this deal". There's room to bargain here. But as I've said before,Phil has the time. The longer Phil waits,the more pressure it puts on Brady.

Phil's in the drivers seat here. And I think he's "playing it right".

I can see a deal going down on Wednesday.

Crennel will hold Quinn out of the first pre-season game vs KC. I guarantee it

I just want the deal done I'm sick of checking message boards every 30 minutes to see if he signed...

:[

Yeah but Pit, according to Condon's desire for the 55x2/70x1 deal.

If Quinn plays 8-1/2 games in 2008 and 2009, or 11 games in either year, he gets his escalators.

Unless something major happens, we all know Quinn will be the starter by 2008, so as long as he doesn't get injured, reaching Condon's goals is cakewalk. That's not even conditional, it's almost guaranteed.

Yea .. another 10 million just to show up and do your job no matter how good ? Pass on that crap Phil. How bout instead of Pro-Bowls which no one really has any control over..make it completion percentages or games won or yards thrown.

Found this article on ESPN

Quinn holds out as Browns, agent continue to haggle on contract

Although there has been progress in negotiations over the past few days, Cleveland Browns officials and the representatives for first-round draft pick Brady Quinn remain divided over how to structure escalator clauses in the contract, and the former Notre Dame quarterback remains out of training camp.

The two sides, said a source with direct knowledge of the bargaining process, have narrowed the gap over guaranteed money in the contract. But the escalators, which enhance the value of a contract if a player reaches certain predetermined playing time or performance levels, are still the most significant sticking point and a hurdle it will be difficult to overcome.

Quinn was the 22nd player chosen overall in April, with his stock slipping precipitously, despite being regarded by most as a top 10 prospect. He is one of just three first-round picks -- Oakland quarterback JaMarcus Russell, the top overall selection, and cornerback Darrelle Revis of the New York Jets, the No. 14 choice, are the others -- without contracts.

Agent Tom Condon of CAA has proposed that the escalators would be triggered, raising Quinn's base salaries in the final two years of what would be a five-year deal, if the quarterback reaches a 55-percent playing time level in any two of the first three seasons of the contract, or a level of 70 percent playing time in any one of the first three years. The Browns want the triggers designed to be more difficult to achieve.

The structure proposed by Condon is similar to those used in contracts he negotiated for previous first-round quarterbacks, including Chad Pennington of the Jets, Byron Leftwich of Jacksonville and Arizona's Matt Leinart.

Under the plan proposed by the Quinn camp, the five-year contract would have a maximum value of about $30 million. If Quinn were to achieve the lowest-level escalators, the deal would be worth $20.25 million. Factoring in the lowest-level escalator values of all the other 2007 first-round choices over a five-year period, the Quinn model would rate as the ninth most valuable.

Cleveland officials have conceded that, because Quinn is a quarterback, they are willing to pay a premium that would be worth more than his No. 22 slot in the first round.

Meanwhile, it appears the Browns' deal with their other first-round selection, offensive tackle Joe Thomas of Wisconsin, was a good one for the franchise.

The third overall pick in the draft, Thomas signed a five-year contract that, according to NFL Players Association documents, includes between $18.7 million to $18.9 million in post-option guarantees, the total that will have been guaranteed when the Browns exercise an option payment next spring. The post-option guarantees had been previously reported at more than $23 million.

That is significantly less than the $27.17 million in guarantees that the Detroit Lions will pay wide receiver Calvin Johnson, the second overall choice. Johnson's per-year average of $9.25 million is also considerably larger than Thomas' $6.7 million. But one key caveat: The Johnson deal is for six years, while Thomas signed a five-year contract, and thus, will be eligible for free agency a year earlier.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/trainingcamp07/news/story?id=2963073

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offensive tackle Joe Thomas of Wisconsin, was a good one for the franchise.

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We've proven we will pay top $$$ for O-lineman, if Joe shows he is one of the best, we will pay him accordingly,

The escalators would be met in years 1-3, but wouldn't be paid until years 4 and 5. Therefore, as Pitt has stated if he isn't worth the escalators you cut him........if he is you pay him.

In the end it will be a mixture of escalators based on a mix of what both sides want. I'm with Pitt on this one, we aren't in any hurry, becuase there isn't a whole lot keeping this from getting done. This way Fry/Anderson starts the season with little fan pressure, and when the season is gone and the OL has gelled you put in BQ to make him ready for next year..................and you save a few bucks in negotiations with BQ. Smart move by Phil to drag this out.

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How bout instead of Pro-Bowls which no one really has any control over..make it completion percentages or games won or yards thrown.

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I think your going to see something like that in the final deal. It will be something simular..........

1. Quinn get's 20.25 million if he plays 55 of the snaps

2. Quinn get's 25 million if he takes 75% of the snaps

3. The escalators you spoke of will raise it to 30 million

That way both sides are happy. Quinn gets virtually 25 million over the life of the contract, and he has REALISTIC escalators to make top QB money if he reaches them.........sorry folks most 2nd year QBs don't go to the Pro Bowl......it's a name game, and in the AFC the names are Manning and Brady right now. The Brown insure themselves of not paying 30 million to a bust, and they keep the escalators from kicking in to year 4 which means if he isn't worth the escalators they cut him.

Like I said this could be done tommorow if we were relying on Brady to start. The truth is this holdout is good for the Browns and Brady (whether he knows it or not), becuase it take the pressure off of him starting right away.

I said that some time back. The AFC is deep in QBs with the name at this point....and several up and coming players like Cutler and Young...and we are a team who hasn't been able to help anyone get a pro-bowl berth.

I sure as heck wouldn't want that in my contract as a big basis on how I got paid.

I know the Browns would never delay signing him because they don't want him to start this year..hehehehehe..