DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2018 NFL Season 2018 NFL Draft Browns select Denzel Ward with the fourth overall pick

More than that I think this position value is a question that has to be questioned.

We look at the NFL today, and no CB is even close to the top WR's in this league.

For example AJ Bouye was the top CB, by bleach report, and he was owned by Antonio Brown.

Yet people value CB's much ahead of Wr's...

The way the game is played nowadays, playing CB's in isolation is an invitation for the other teams to score.

Also wonder why in the hell can someone value a Guard higher than a RB... makes no sense to me.

Overview:

Ward has the experience and talent to handle duties on the outside, but his lack of play strength combined with his elite footwork might be the deciding factor for a move inside.

Ward is outstanding as a mirror-and-match cornerback with great route feel who is able to maintain tight coverage around the field with good technique and pattern recognition.

He should become an early starter at nickel cornerback with the talent to make an immediate impact for a defense that faces a pass-happy division foe twice per year.

Strengths:

Supreme athletic ability
Expected to be impressive Combine tester.

Can park in a deep squat under wide receiver's chin at the line.

Patient from press showing no panic or hurry in initial movements.

Can pedal and mirror for a long time without opening hips.

Tremendously gifted footwork
Mirrors and matches with good balance throughout the route.

Matches changing route speed stride for stride.

Plays from low side of route to take away comebacks.

Uses big burst for recovery and closeouts.

Carries true long speed down the field.

Reads clues from off-man
Reads slants and drives in front of the route in search of an interception.

Allowed just over 32 percent completions over last two years.

Ballhawk with sudden hands to attack the throw.

Bats throws down and will swirl arms around the catch point to prevent target from finishing the catch.

Weaknesses:

Frame is somewhat slight and he feels small in coverage at times.

Lacks play strength to jam and disrupt.

Appears to avoid route contact so he doesn't upset coverage balance.

Physical receivers can body him around at the top of the route.

Needs to turn and find football sooner with back to the ball.

Always around the throw, but lack of size and length shows up with "just misses" in pass defense.

Several pass breakups came on throws with poor placement.

Coverage benefitted from deep, talented rush unit up front.

Has issues disengaging from big blocking receivers.

Big backs drag him for a ride in run support.

I love Ward. He got abused a little in that Indiana game by bigger WR's so that is something to keep and eye on, match up problems with bigs. Other than that, he was dominant, elite athleticism.

Comparatively speaking he is a way better athlete than Chubb is at DE. I was not sold on Chubb and his 3 cone was below average. He's not an edge bender.


Ward is an elite athlete with silky smooth hips.

I think we could have gotten OBJ if we traded the #4

I disagree, Chubb is going to be a special player and he was a three year starter, not a one year wonder, so I don't know where you dreamed up your opinion on him, because it certainly is not a description of his body of work.

My analysis is far more factual than yours. Didn't have a good 3 cone time and doesn't bend the edge. Prove that wrong.

I think it will take only one or two games in Denver and Ward in isolation against Antonio Brown game #1, and we will see who is right...

Drafting Chubb would allow us to blitz with less and end our stupid D which forces CB's in isolation against much better players.

You're going to base a draft pick on two games and one of them being against a top 5 WR of all time in his prime.

Got it. Seems fair.

No I base the draft pick on the absurd it is to think a CB can cover a #1 WR, and how people rather have a CB than a #1 WR or an elite pass rusher.

I was laughing at the concept of Ward being able to cover Antonio Brown and AJ, and the commentators not thinking that was something wrong with it.

You do not know that Chubb is elite or even above average.

Bro....who is it in this league that CAN cover Antonio Brown?

Let's start there.

Rubbish! His 3 cone was only 0.11 of a second less than that of the time posted by Ogbah. That is a little childish to be cutting such fine hairs for your case against him.

The film however is undisputable.

I'll give you that, but the addition of a pass rusher makes much more sense.

You see with the improvement of the linebackers we could play the SS further away form the LOS, play the CB's closer to the Wr's on the release, ending the easy completions, etc

No CB in this league can cover the elite Wr's, so playing them in isolation by design is an absurd,specially in our division.

But all in all I wouldn't draft Chubb, I would have traded the pick for OBJ.

Read Peter King's comments on their trade down offers..not hardly any at all.

Our secondary was horrible, Dorsey said there were numerous times on film where he saw Garrett 1-2 steps from a sack but the secondary didn't cover well enough for him to get there, therefore he had to go with what IMO was the best CB in the draft over the best DE in the draft and Garrett and Ogbah aren't to shabby, we went with NEED over LUXURY and this team isn't able to pick luxury picks at least not yet ...

So you're arguing that a guy had a worse 3 cone time, (arguably the most important combine number projecting front 7 prospects) than a guy we took in the second round and is already on our roster, should have been the 4th overall pick.

You're right, the film in indisputable, he doesn't bend the edge like elite prospects, Garret (I'd argue at his size, the bend he gets is almost unbelievable), Bosa, Mack, Miller. Go watch those guys bend the edge and then watch Chubb, you're right the tape is indisputable.



It is absolutely not childish, it's evaluating the facts. Denzel Ward is an elite athlete for a corner. Chubb is an average to above average athlete for an end. Compare his size and combine numbers to Garrets and they aren't close.


I'm not saying Chubb wouldn't have been a solid pick, I'm saying I personally wasn't a fan for the reason I have laid out.

He had FA to solve the problem. Drafting for need with the #4 is stupid.

He also should have though on changing the D philosophy... GW D was pathetic last year. Playing with that large cushion on our D will get us nowhere.

And how can you blitz if you can't defend the screen?

The combine does not carry much weight with any team and I too have watched the film on Chubb and do not come to the same conclusions as you.

I trust my eyes...and my eyes see a special talent, not much less than that of Garrett.

I guess we will just disagree here and thats okay, because the proof is going to be revealed on the field, just not today.

BPG, I tend to agree with you on Chubb, but Ward being elite with his size...

Below 40 vertical and with his frame, I'm not sure Ward is that elite athlete for the position at the NFL level.

He had FA to solve the problem. Drafting for need with the #4 is stupid.

You've watched drafts before right? Teams have drafted for need all too often in the top 5 , let alone top ten.
They take best player available for their team.

He had Peppers so deep and the Cb's with so much cushion because GW is an idiot.

We couldn't even defend a screen....

How can you dial so many blitzes with that amount of cushion to the Wr's..

What's his excuse to start Peppers....

I had a good impression of him on the first half of the season (I wanted to) but if you look at the way we played, it makes you want to puke...

Just look at the separation we gave the other team... The way we defended the screens...

The way we lined up for plays...

Don't blame players when the biggest problem is coaching.

The Gio TD alone should get him fired and Peppers benched

There are no shut down CB's... no CB can cover AB, OBJ, Julio Jones, etc

It has been like this for years now. Shut Down CB's are a myth.

The rules of drafting 101:

Golden rule #1

Never, ever pass on the best pass rusher in the draft (save for a chance at a franchise QB) to fill a need.

LOL, we did this with Ngata and look at the deal we made...

Best player available, should be the logic on the top of the draft.

We had FA to address the CB and OL problem, and we didn't.

What actually is the issue with Ward's size?

He's within a single inch of almost every AFC CB at the 2017 Pro-Bowl, and carries a playing weight around the same size. In fact, Ward is bigger than quite a few of the corners to grace the Pro-Bowl. He's the same size as Casey Hayward, who was the best corner in all of football last year. The NFC roster was even smaller, averaging six foot and around 195.

If ya'll are worried about Ward coming in at 183lbs to the combine, please note that most athletes come in under weight so they can time faster when they run. That's the same weight that Casey Hayward was; again, the best corner in football last year.

I'm really kind of shocked by this. I never knew a 5'11" and 190 for a corner was undersized; likely because that has literally never, in the history of football, constituted an undersized corner. I'm guessing it's because the likes of Sherman, Ramsey and Rhodes have people thinking that the position has been revolutionized by larger players.

Big corners aren't some replacement trend. Lattimore was a Pro-bowler as a rookie, DROY, and the top corner selected last year, and he weighed in just 10 pounds and 1 inch away from Ward. Ward shedding those extra few pounds might explain why Ward had a better broad, vert and 40 time. Ward still smashed out 16 reps on the bench, too, so the kid ain't weak.

What exactly is the issue with Ward? Ya'll really mad over an inch or do ya'll think his 5'11" frame just magically can't handle the additional 10 pounds that every other 5'11" player adds for the season?

There isn't a myth about shutdown corners existing. What you have is the NFL changing the rules to give WR's a huge advantage. That doesn't stop GM's from drafting what they evaluate as elite CB's.
I forget the CB that was drafted but the write up on the TV screen said he was "grabby" in man coverage, which, as the analyst said ,won't work in the NFL because of the rules.

FL Dawg, I might agree that Chubb maybe the best pass-rusher in the draft as I had him mocked @4, I would have taken Josh Jackson with the second round pick.
But I think the Browns reasoning was they have drafted a bunch of DE's.
My counter is how good are they???

it's a little worrisome to hear such concern over his slight frame and struggles against bigger WRs.

I think we probably drafted him to match up with Antonio Brown .. but we also face Michael Thomas, Julio Jones, AJ Green, Demaryius Thomas, DeAndre Hopkins, etc .. that's a concern

Really, really good.

Can someone point out why Ogbah (Year three) and Garrett (Year two) have people so utterly desperate to replace them?

Just because both had some injuries last year does not mean they have no place on this roster. They're kick ass young players who had the misfortune of getting injured. That doesn't make them busts who require replacement.

It's fine to hate them. Go for it. But both kids are evidently part of the Browns long term plans. That's why they were such high draft selections.

I have no issues with Ward size or player ability, I think he will be a good CB,but at #4 its crazy.

My main issue here is that CB's are severely over rated, like LT's were once, and guards are on this draft.

I also have issues with our D concept... Don't like big cushions and easy completions. Rather have physical CB's to jam the release and safeties protecting the big plays, double coverage for the #1 WRs if needed, than playing CB's in isolation against the Wr's we have in this league.

I will admit that Ogbah was coming on strong before injury. I think the fact that our pass rush has been so putrid for so long has everyone just wanting that area "fixed"

Also that I think we were beaten more often by screen passes than big plays,and I think Ward isn't going to help on that.

Not that CB wasn't a need, but the worst part of our CB play was the cushion we gave the Wr's, and I think that was part of the D design also.

This is exactly why we just drafted the best press-man corner in the draft. Williams expressed multiple times that he didn't like playing so much zone or playing off-coverage, but implied that was done because the quality of our corners wasn't very good.

I'm not sure why you're concerned about him being taken at #4 given Denver and Tampa had both shown significant interest. He was going to be a top 7 selection regardless. 4-7 was always his range. Kid has breathtaking athleticism, decent size for a guy with such blinding speed, and the tape on him is a joy to watch: Kid allowed a 35% catch rate and a 52 passer rating against.

I wouldn't be worried about him being over drafted, he fills our biggest need (After Mayfield filled the previous biggest) and everything suggests he's the perfect guy to fill it in the modern game.

But, again, I just can't figure out what is wrong with his size. And that's not just you, an awful lot of people are saying it, but one more inch and 10 more pounds makes someone prototypical.

BDU, again I say that I have no problems with Ward, but drafting a CB this high is non sense.

We could have addressed the problem in FA and later in the draft.

You don't pass on Saquan nor Chubb for Ward.

You only draft Mayfield #1 if and only if you can trade from the #4, if you can't you draft Saquan and Mayfield

Take it for what you will. Honestly, I've long run out of "I don't hate (x player) I just don't think he's a good (x job description)" arguments. You hate the guys. Own it.

It's hard for the pass rush to be there when the team missed both starting DEs for an extended period of time.

Garrett and Ogbah only got four games together. They had an impressive six sacks combined in those games. That's a combined 24 sacks if we extrapolate on the season.

That's as two very young players, one of whom clearly wasn't even 80% healthy.

It's way too early to be desperately wanting to replace the #1 and #32 picks within two years of their arrival. Garrett had a really nice rookie season and Ogbah was on pace to beat his rookie production in spite of missing his helper on the other side.

That's even more impressive when you add in our inability to cover which buys zero time for the rush.

And, again, Chubb wasn't an elite prospect. I don't get why people are so in love with him that they're throwing Ogbah and Garrett under the bus.

We should be excited for these kids. Big things are coming now that we've finally got a secondary.