Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 2,808
Likes: 51
I
Dawg Talker
OP Offline
Dawg Talker
I
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 2,808
Likes: 51
It's very evident John Dorsey has come in with vision and long term game plan that is creating hope and promise
the one thing that separates Dorsey from the past bozo GMs is that Dorsey EXPECTS to win.
the other GMs especially Farmer and Sissy Brown were either not trying to win or at best hoping to win.
Dorsey is proven and his blueprint is all over Berea.
I think Dorsey also wanted to draft a QB
that was much like him from a personality standpoint

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 6,815
Hall of Famer
Offline
Hall of Famer
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 6,815
It's easier to do when he had the bevy of picks and Cap space that Sashi Brown left. I like what Dorsey has done so far but could he have done as well if he inherited what Sashi had when he had taken over?

Sashi did a good job of setting this up so calling him "Sissy" is a bit childish.

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,235
Dawg Talker
Offline
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,235
I agree with you overall. When I look at the roster it is getting harder and harder to find a glaring weakness.

I mean, maybe our kicker and the safety spot?

QB? Not really. We have Taylor and Mayfield
RB? We have to Hyde Duke's Chubb ( from the ladies )
WR? Nope. We have Landry, Gordon, Coleman, Callaway and Janis
OL? Drafted JT's replacement (possibly).


Cleveland Browns, Space Browns
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32,655
Likes: 672
O
Legend
Offline
Legend
O
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32,655
Likes: 672
I'm onboard with Dorsey, but I honestly think Sashi would have had a good draft this year and handled the board better. He would have traded out of some picks for higher pics next year. We would have got our QB and other good player. I don't fault Sashi at all, Hue should have won some games.


Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,674
Dawg Talker
Offline
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,674
Sashi

Caleb brantley

Myles garrett

larry ogunjobi

signed Kirskey to a 4 year deal

Peppers (played out of postion imo)

jason mccourty

jammie collins to a 4 year deal

david njoku

I dont get the hate...and plenty of draft picks this year and a ton of salary cap


I bet you're wondering the samething I did, why O' why didn't I take the...blue pill
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,674
Dawg Talker
Offline
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,674
I think letting carson wentz go to another team was it for him...or...


Haslam "Sashi, I want you to tear this thing to the ground. We are building this from ground up." "and pick up as many draft picks as possible. clear as much cap as you can."

Sashi "yes sir, will do."

Sashi then strips the team to the core.

Haslam thinking to himself "Now I need football guys to build this thing. people who have done it before."

shoot now everyone is a football guy in the FO almost.

Last edited by dawgpound101; 05/03/18 03:30 AM. Reason: missed a word

I bet you're wondering the samething I did, why O' why didn't I take the...blue pill
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 902
Likes: 3
All Pro
Offline
All Pro
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 902
Likes: 3
I hear ya Dawgpound, but sashi didn't turn the assets into anything tangible. He would have traded out of 1 for the promise of future gains. At some point you have to make it happen. Makes me nervous as heck, cuz I don't want to be mired in mediocrity. But, "there's a gold mine up on the mountainside and ya never gonna get it if ya never gonna try."


---------------------------------------------------------

#gmstrong

We are not called on to be successful. We are called on to be faithful.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 70,636
Likes: 510
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 70,636
Likes: 510
I think it's tough to know what spots are weak right now. We don't really know how the secondary will be. FS is a concern for me, the 2nd CB spot as well (heck, so is Ward until he proves it), LT is a HUGE question mark, WR2 as well, and so is Njoku ... and of course Tyrod/Baker


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,544
P
Hall of Famer
Offline
Hall of Famer
P
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,544
Quote:
Haslam "Sashi, I want you to tear this thing to the ground. We are building this from ground up." "and pick up as many draft picks as possible. clear as much cap as you can."


i dont believe that for one second. i think sashi sold that plan to haslam... thats why he fired.. stupid plan...


being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 6,941
Likes: 69
Hall of Famer
Offline
Hall of Famer
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 6,941
Likes: 69
Originally Posted By: pblack18707
.. stupid plan...


The Plan wasn't "stupid". Amongst other issues, it was a lack of commitment to see it through long term...


When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,544
P
Hall of Famer
Offline
Hall of Famer
P
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,544
Originally Posted By: bbrowns32
Originally Posted By: pblack18707
.. stupid plan...


The Plan wasn't "stupid". Amongst other issues, it was a lack of commitment to see it through long term...


believe what you want.. to purposely make yourself into a expansion team is stupid.


being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 6,941
Likes: 69
Hall of Famer
Offline
Hall of Famer
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 6,941
Likes: 69
Originally Posted By: pblack18707
Originally Posted By: bbrowns32
Originally Posted By: pblack18707
.. stupid plan...


The Plan wasn't "stupid". Amongst other issues, it was a lack of commitment to see it through long term...


believe what you want.. to purposely make yourself into a expansion team is stupid.


You are simply focusing on the W/L record; look instead at the personnel (including the coaching staff)...


When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 17,374
Likes: 1361
M
Legend
Offline
Legend
M
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 17,374
Likes: 1361
Originally Posted By: pblack18707
Originally Posted By: bbrowns32
Originally Posted By: pblack18707
.. stupid plan...


The Plan wasn't "stupid". Amongst other issues, it was a lack of commitment to see it through long term...


believe what you want.. to purposely make yourself into a expansion team is stupid.


Right. Because the roster Sashi, Hue, DePo, Berry initially inherited was a amazing, producing at a high level, & not old/slow at all! notallthere


Tackles are tackles.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,864
Likes: 26
BpG Offline
Hall of Famer
Offline
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,864
Likes: 26
Baker Mayfield is an analytics pick. So is Denzel Ward.

I'm not sure how much differently "Sissy Brown" would have built this team other than probably not giving up picks for Taylor and Landry.

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 17,374
Likes: 1361
M
Legend
Offline
Legend
M
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 17,374
Likes: 1361
Originally Posted By: BpG
Baker Mayfield is an analytics pick. So is Denzel Ward.

I'm not sure how much differently "Sissy Brown" would have built this team other than probably not giving up picks for Taylor and Landry.


Agreed. The only thing that may have been different could have been a trade down at 4 instead of Ward. I know Dorsey said there wasn't that much traction, but what isn't value for one person could be value for another. And vice versa.


Tackles are tackles.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,098
Likes: 134
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,098
Likes: 134
Originally Posted By: dawgpound101
Sashi

Caleb brantley

Myles garrett

larry ogunjobi

signed Kirskey to a 4 year deal

Peppers (played out of postion imo)

jason mccourty

jammie collins to a 4 year deal

david njoku

I dont get the hate...and plenty of draft picks this year and a ton of salary cap


Sometimes, I think some on here just like to call people names because it makes them feel surperior....


#GMSTRONG

“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan

"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 17,374
Likes: 1361
M
Legend
Offline
Legend
M
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 17,374
Likes: 1361
Don't forget the Bitonio extension, Emmanuel Ogbah, BBC......and I'm still high on C. Coleman.


Tackles are tackles.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 70,636
Likes: 510
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 70,636
Likes: 510
Originally Posted By: MemphisBrownie
Don't forget the Bitonio extension, Emmanuel Ogbah, BBC......and I'm still high on C. Coleman.
This is obviously a HUGE year for him. He's got no excuse. Better QB, really good weapons around him, 3rd year in the league. It would be a really nice thing for our offense and future.


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 17,374
Likes: 1361
M
Legend
Offline
Legend
M
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 17,374
Likes: 1361
Quote:
This is obviously a HUGE year for him.


You're absolutely right about that.

And contingent on playing time, I'm expecting a huge jump from Ogunjobi. I'm really excited to see what he can do for the interior pass rush.


Tackles are tackles.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,124
Likes: 222
W
Hall of Famer
Online
Hall of Famer
W
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,124
Likes: 222
j/c

I can agree with the thought that Dorsey is changing the culture to fit his plan. He should. That doesn't mean his predecessor was totally inept though. He did many good things for the team and its future...he could have probably done some things better. Matters not at this point.

We will never know how well/poorly Sashi would have done with this off-season and draft. We will never know how Dorsey would have dealt with the roster in place when Sashi was named Chief Tie Breaker.

It's fun to debate and even get our feathers ruffled...but no one knows. It's like the 'what-ifs' thrown out about drafted or passed-over players like:

What if we drafted McNabb and the Eagles took Couch? I believe their career success disparity is more due to the teams than the player.

What if we drafted Wentz and the Eagles were stuck with Bradford? I think Wentz would have gotten killed here (just like everyone else behind C that year) and the Eagles don't even get to .500 after Bradford is knocked out for the year.

Who knows? It is fun to debate tho.

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,817
Likes: 19
D
Hall of Famer
Offline
Hall of Famer
D
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,817
Likes: 19
Quote:

I'm not sure how much differently "Sissy Brown" would have built this team other than probably not giving up picks for Taylor and Landry.



I'm not so sure... One thing to remember was that we still have a lot of the guys who were here when Sashi was here... The discussion may have been all along that the Browns were going to go after Tyrod Taylor before Sashi was let go. I wouldn't be so sure on Landry. I don't know where he falls in analytics, but I wasn't as high on him as some.

Maybe the old staffers mentioned some of the things they were planning with Sashi and Dorsey just agreed and we're making the same or similar moves just without Sashi. I mean we did try for Tyrod last off-season...

Year 3 was always the year to make moves and use the money and draft picks to get whatever players/quarterback we wanted. I believe when we started this plan 2 years ago that we looked across the NFL to see what players would be available at this time and I think this played a role in trading back when we could have had Wentz. I don't think necessarily that we blindly traded back because we felt he "wasn't a top 20 guy." I believe we had a very methodical plan on how to turn this franchise around. The plan is still in action only with a different person in the driver seat.


Edit: and I am referring to the trades of Taylor and Landry in this instance...


Last edited by devicedawg; 05/03/18 09:26 AM.
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 6,815
Hall of Famer
Offline
Hall of Famer
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 6,815
Moneyball rebuilding process has Browns ready to compete despite whiffing on Wentz, Watson

We revisit the Browns' controversial rebuild, from passing on Carson Wentz in '16 to drafting Baker Mayfield last week

Sean Wagner-McGough mugshot
by Sean Wagner-McGough @seanjwagner 2h ago • 18 min read


https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/money...n-wentz-watson/

After an unending, dark and cold Cleveland winter, the Browns have finally emerged from the long night imperfect and flawed, but awake and ready to begin their march toward relevancy.

Over the past two seasons, the Browns have won one game, posting a 1-31 record and getting outscored by 364 points, which comes out to more than 11 points per game. But at some point in the not so distant future, the Browns will actually find ways to win football games (yes, plural).

They'll win games by riding the arm and legs of an NFL-caliber quarterback (Tyrod Taylor and/or Baker Mayfield), who'll be throwing to a dynamic receiving corps (Josh Gordon, Corey Coleman and Jarvis Landry) and getting the ball in the hands of a nice collection of running backs (Duke Johnson, Carlos Hyde and Nick Chubb). And they'll win games with their defense, which can attack the quarterback with an array of pass rushers (Myles Garrett, Emmanuel Ogbah and Chad Thomas) and can cover all areas of the field with capable linebackers (Jamie Collins and Christian Kirksey) and defensive backs (Jabrill Peppers, Denzel Ward and Damarious Randall).

As much as it sounds like an oxymoron, the reason the Browns are finally in a position to contend (let's not get ahead of ourselves) compete is entirely related to their 1-31 record. Over the past two years, the Browns -- sorta, but not really like the Philadelphia 76ers before them -- have been a failure by design.

Under Sashi Brown, who was named executive vice president in January 2016 and fired in December 2017, and chief strategy officer Paul DePodesta (Jonah Hill from "Moneyball"), who was hired with Brown and is still around, the Browns went against well-established NFL norms by twice refusing to draft a franchise-changing quarterback in the first round and instead opting to trade their high draft picks for even more draft capital. As a consequence of their stockpiling strategy, they've been forced to trot out quarterbacks like Robert Griffin III, Josh McCown, Cody Kessler, DeShone Kizer, and Kevin Hogan -- let's just say that the list on the back of that Browns quarterback jersey remains just as depressing as it did in 2015.

It might've been unconventional passing on highly-touted quarterback prospects like Jared Goff/Carson Wentz, Mitchell Trubisky, and Deshaun Watson, but the reasoning behind the method makes sense. Drafting prospects is like playing the slot machines. NFL teams aren't just horrible at drafting and developing quarterbacks, they're terrible at drafting and developing any and all types of players. By acquiring as many draft picks as possible, the Browns were improving their chances to draft and develop good, cheap players. Call it "Moneyball" or #analytics if you want -- the name doesn't matter as much as the reasoning.

But somewhere along the way, the process became too much to handle. Patience expired. Brown lost his job this past December as the Browns tumbled toward an 0-16 parade, and the more conventional (and proven) John Dorsey replaced him, inheriting a stupid-crazy wealth of draft capital and cap space. Dorsey proceeded to hijack the process by trading for (and paying) impact-now players like receiver Jarvis Landry, quarterback Tyrod Taylor, and cornerback Damarious Randall. Finally, he drafted their franchise quarterback, Baker Mayfield, with the first pick in the 2018 NFL Draft last week.

Now that the process is, for the most part, over, it's worth looking back at how the Browns arrived at this point, and whether the decisions they made over past couple years were worth it. With the benefit of hindsight at our disposal, it's easy for us to identify the mistakes that were made. Even still, the Browns appear to be in a position to overcome those blunders. If they do emerge as a competitive team, it won't be as simple as crediting Brown's process or Dorsey's takeover.

Let's get to it.
Wentz, Watson trades: Not as horrible as you think

After a 3-13 season in 2015, the Browns were scheduled to pick second in the 2016 NFL Draft during Brown's first offseason in charge. But on April 20, 2016, the Browns agreed to send the No. 2 overall pick (and a 2017 fourth-round pick) to Philadelphia in exchange for:

No. 8 pick in 2016
No. 77 pick in 2016
No. 100 pick in 2016
First-round pick in 2017
Second-round pick in 2018

The Eagles would use the No. 2 pick on Carson Wentz after the Rams took Jared Goff first overall. During an interview with ESPN in the summer of 2016, DePodesta explained the Browns' decision by saying that they didn't think there was a top 20 quarterback in that draft.

Quote:
We have to make judgments on the individual players and we're not always going to be right," DePodesta said. "But in this particular case, we just didn't feel it was necessarily the right bet to make for us at this time. Again, it comes down to individual evaluation of a player. We will not always be right on those type of things.

"I think the hardest part, and where we have to stay the most disciplined, as much as you want a player, you can't invent him if he doesn't exist. In a given year, there may be two or three NFL-ready quarterbacks at the college level. In another year, there literally may be zero. There just may not be anybody in that year who's good enough to be a top 20 quarterback in the NFL.

"Even though you have a desperate need for one, you have to resist the temptation of taking that guy just because you have a need if you don't believe he's one of those 20 guys at the end of the day. I think that's the hardest part, just maintaining your discipline because you have the need. That's what we did this year."


Eventually, Wentz blossomed in 2017 after a rough rookie season, emerging as an MVP candidate before suffering a season-ending knee injury in December, which has placed his availability for the beginning of the 2018 season in jeopardy. Obviously, in hindsight, DePodesta's comments come across as foolish and misguided. They were wrong about a quarterback prospect. It happens to every team.

Unfortunately for the Browns, it happened again the following year. After taking pass-rusher Myles Garrett (not Trubisky) with the first-overall pick in the 2017 NFL Draft (a decision nobody mocked), the Browns sat at No. 12 with the Eagles' pick, which gave them an opportunity to draft quarterback Deshaun Watson. Instead, the Browns gave the Texans the 12th pick in exchange for the 25th pick and a 2018 first rounder. The Texans took Watson and then the Browns were forced to watch Watson set the league on fire as a rookie before a torn ACL ended his season in November. With the picks acquired in that trade, the Browns drafted safety Jabrill Peppers in 2017 and cornerback Denzel Ward in 2018. Again, the 12th pick was originally the Eagles' pick that the Browns acquired in the Wentz trade, so both of these trades are connected like branches growing from the same tree.

The Browns, with all those picks from the Eagles, selected ... it turns out, it's not that simple. According to Cleveland.com's Scott Patsko, the Browns traded all five of the Eagles' picks for 12 total picks. Thankfully, Jimmy Kempski of PhillyVoice did the heavy lifting and compiled a list of players the Browns acquired through the process that began with the Wentz trade and ended during last week's draft. Here's the list:

WR Corey Coleman
OT Shon Coleman
OG/OT Spencer Drango
QB Cody Kessler
S Derrick Kindred
QB DeShone Kizer
WR Ricardo Louis
WR Jordan Payton
S Jabrill Peppers
DE Chad Thomas
CB Denzel Ward
WR Antonio Callaway

Clearly, the Browns would've been happy with either Wentz or Watson now that we've seen both of them dominate the NFL (albeit in relatively small sample sizes). But the only way we know that is by using hindsight. The Browns didn't have luxury of hindsight when they made that trade. In the moment, their decision to stockpile draft picks made sense, as ESPN's Seth Walder and Brian Burke explained when Brown got fired in December:

Quote:
In just two years of draft-pick-for-draft-pick trades, the Browns significantly increased their draft capital. Even by the outdated Jimmy Johnson chart, they added over 2,000 trade chart points, the equivalent of the No. 3 pick. By another measure: They added over 20 AV, the equivalent of two No. 1 picks. And by Massey-Thaler's surplus value calculations, they added more than $13 million of value in those trades, the equivalent of five or six first-round picks. That is all from just trading back.

[...]

... the ensuing rise of Wentz and Watson might have cost Brown his job. But those decisions ought to be judged based on the information on hand at the time rather than on hindsight. Neither quarterback was a slam dunk prospect, and in both situations the Browns returned excellent value for their pick. And, critically, the Browns didn't need to jump at the first quarterback they saw because they were building for the long term. Or so they thought.



Several of the players they drafted could/will play substantial roles in the years to come. They might not have the kind of impact that Wentz or Watson would've, but they'll be important to the Browns' rebirth.

Several of the players they drafted could/will play substantial roles in the years to come. They might not have the kind of impact that Wentz or Watson would've, but they'll be important to the Browns' rebirth.

But both of those quarterbacks' struggles represent why the Browns' strategy of passing on quarterbacks in the early stages of their rebuild might've been smart. Kessler and Kizer struggled mightily when given a chance to play, but a significant portion of their struggles can be chalked up to the lack of support structure around them. To put it simply, most young, unproven quarterbacks would've struggled in Cleveland over the past two seasons -- probably even Wentz and Watson -- with that roster and that coaching staff (which still remains in place, of course).

We saw how big a difference a new roster and coaching staff made with Jared Goff over the past two seasons. So, it's wrong to assume that Wentz or Watson would've torn up the field in Cleveland. Teammates and coaching matters.



Louis Riddick
‏Verified account @LRiddickESPN

Remember when “we” all thought we knew that Jared Goff was a bust after watching Hard Knocks his rookie season? That tells you all you need to know about how what happens from THIS point forward is what REALLY matters with all of these young men coming into the league.
10:39 AM - 1 May 2018


Mayfield at least has the benefit of joining a team that figures to be stronger than the teams Kessler and Kizer joined. And the only reason Mayfield has that benefit is because the Browns chose to build a team before picking a quarterback.

So really, the question comes down to, would you rather have

Wentz without much help on the roster
Watson, Garrett, and possibly Ward (who knows if they still could've grabbed him in 2018?)
Mayfield, Garrett, Ward, and all of those players listed above?

The answer isn't as simple as No. 1 or 2.

Nobody knows how Wentz would've fared on a team that didn't have a stacked offensive line, a top-tier tight end (Zach Ertz), one of the game's best coaches (Doug Pederson), and an elite defense. For as much hype as we've given Watson, nobody knows how the rest of his NFL career will unfold. What he did in 2017 was amazing, but he only did it over a seven-game stretch. Let's pump the breaks on his Hall of Fame projections until he proves he can sustain his high level of play over a larger sample size. Plus, he's already torn both of his ACLs in a span of three years. Health concerns over Watson are legitimate -- as they are with Wentz considering how much of his game is built around his athleticism.

Wentz and Watson are more proven than Mayfield, that's for sure, but let's give Mayfield (and Garrett, Ward, and others) a chance to play before we dismiss the third option. It still could be the best one. We just have to let them play before we know for certain.
The Brock Osweiler trade: A win for Cleveland

We'll get to Mayfield soon, but first, we need to address the trade that was a clear win for the Browns.

Last summer, the Browns traded FOR Texans quarterback Brock Osweiler and his mega contract. With their cap space, the Browns had the ability to take on his contract. Because the Browns were eating his deal, the Texans gave the Browns a 2018 second-round pick (other Day 3 picks were exchanged). Osweiler never made it to the 2017 regular season with the Browns. Last week, the trade was completed when the Browns used the second-round pick on a tackle-breaking machine, running back Nick Chubb.

Last summer, the Browns traded FOR Texans quarterback Brock Osweiler and his mega contract. With their cap space, the Browns had the ability to take on his contract. Because the Browns were eating his deal, the Texans gave the Browns a 2018 second-round pick (other Day 3 picks were exchanged). Osweiler never made it to the 2017 regular season with the Browns. Last week, the trade was completed when the Browns used the second-round pick on a tackle-breaking machine, running back Nick Chubb.

As a whole, after Dorsey dedicated much of the offseason to bolstering the secondary, the Browns' secondary looks dangerous.

Finally, Dorsey completed the process by drafting Mayfield. The Browns finally have their quarterback. And then they used the Texans' first-round pick (which they got when they passed on taking Watson, which they were only in a position to do because of their trade down with the Eagles in 2016) to take Ward.

The Browns still have plenty of work to do. The process never really stops in the NFL. But the Browns' period of stockpiling picks is over. For better or for worse, they've got their short-term and their long-term quarterback, and a roster around the quarterback that won't be a complete liability. Now, the results of the process will be unveiled.
A promising future awaits despite uneven results

The process certainly wasn't perfect.

Trading down instead of taking Wentz and Watson made sense at the time, but hindsight has demonstrated that the Browns might've been better off taking either of those two quarterback. It's difficult to envision an alternate universe in which the Browns actually take Wentz, but if they had taken Wentz, you'd think they still would been picking high in the following two drafts. If they had taken Wentz, they likely wouldn't have been able to draft Myles Garrett first overall in 2017, but they might've been able to get Ward this year with whatever pick they would've had.

The hiring of Hue Jackson also hasn't worked out. It's not just about the lack of wins. It's also about his mismanagement of the quarterback situation and how he's managed his public perception.

But the Browns' future finally looks promising in large part because of Brown's "Moneyball" strategy, which gave them leeway to miss on some draft selections while hitting on a few. Remember, that was the entire point. The Browns knew they'd miss on some draft picks like everyone else does. But they collected enough picks to allow them to overcome their misses the way other teams can't.

Brown missed on Kizer and Kessler, but young players like tight end David Njoku, defensive end Myles Garrett, receiver Corey Coleman, defensive end Emmanuel Ogbah, safety Jabrill Peppers, and cornerback Denzel Ward figure to play a substantial role in the Browns' return to relevance. The trade for Jamie Collins remains a solid one. His free agent signings of offensive linemen will give Mayfield a not-horrible support structure. If Mayfield ends up turning into a franchise-saving quarterback, Brown deserves credit for building a halfway decent team that doesn't completely hinder a young quarterback.

Really, the reason the Browns have hope is Mayfield. He's that good of a quarterback prospect.


If Mayfield, who is expected to sit behind Taylor this season, develops into a top-tier quarterback, Dorsey will be lauded as the Browns' savior. He'll get the credit, which will be deserved.

It's not like Mayfield was the consensus top quarterback. Most pundits figured the Browns would take either the strong-armed Josh Allen or the safer Sam Darnold. It wasn't until the morning of the draft that Mayfield emerged as the favorite. Sure enough, the Browns chose the short, athletic, mobile quarterback coming out of a college system over the more traditional type of quarterbacks. Mayfield was the quarterback most of the #analytics community chose as their QB1, perhaps demonstrating that the nerds (I say this as a compliment) still hold some -- if not all -- the power in Cleveland. It also indicates that perhaps if Brown had survived to this point, he would've taken Mayfield over the other quarterbacks, though there's no way to know for certain what he would've done.

Really, the best way to look at the past few years and the next few years in Cleveland is through a nuanced lens. Would the Browns have been better off staying at No. 2 and taking Wentz in 2016? Probably, but we'll never know, because there's no way to know how Wentz would've fared in the barren wasteland that is Cleveland. Would the Browns have been better off taking Watson? Maybe, but let's see how Watson fares in the years to come first. Does that mean the Browns' current formula with Mayfield, Ward, Peppers, Coleman, and so on can't be as good as those other two outcomes? Of course not.

There's still a chance that the path the Browns took will be the best one. We just have to let their young players actually play before we rush to judgement. If the Browns do end up becoming competitive, Dorsey, Brown, and DePodesta will all deserve credit. All three of their fingerprints are all over this rebuilding job.

Sashi Brown died for it. Paul DePodesta is still there fighting for it. John Dorsey co-opted it. Now, Cleveland gets to live it.

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,172
Likes: 209
Hall of Famer
Offline
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,172
Likes: 209
Originally Posted By: WSU Willie
j/c

I can agree with the thought that Dorsey is changing the culture to fit his plan. He should. That doesn't mean his predecessor was totally inept though. He did many good things for the team and its future...he could have probably done some things better. Matters not at this point.

We will never know how well/poorly Sashi would have done with this off-season and draft. We will never know how Dorsey would have dealt with the roster in place when Sashi was named Chief Tie Breaker.

It's fun to debate and even get our feathers ruffled...but no one knows. It's like the 'what-ifs' thrown out about drafted or passed-over players like:

What if we drafted McNabb and the Eagles took Couch? I believe their career success disparity is more due to the teams than the player.

What if we drafted Wentz and the Eagles were stuck with Bradford? I think Wentz would have gotten killed here (just like everyone else behind C that year) and the Eagles don't even get to .500 after Bradford is knocked out for the year.

Who knows? It is fun to debate tho.


Agree with most of what you have to, except this:


Originally Posted By: WSU Willie
It is fun to debate tho.


No, it's really not


Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown.
Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 18,204
C
~
Legend
Offline
~
Legend
C
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 18,204
Sashi was put in the impossible position of putting out a grease fire with a water bottle. Farmer and Pett gutted this team, well before Sashi took over.

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,398
Likes: 280
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,398
Likes: 280
Originally Posted By: Vambo
It's easier to do when he had the bevy of picks and Cap space that Sashi Brown left. I like what Dorsey has done so far but could he have done as well if he inherited what Sashi had when he had taken over?

Sashi did a good job of setting this up so calling him "Sissy" is a bit childish.

I agree with you that trashing Sashi is unnecessary.. and I agree with some of what you said.. but Sashi has had cap space and he has had high draft picks.. he showed no inclination to spend any of the money and he seemed to be more interested in trading back for value rather than trying to find stud football players... Even if Sashi was still here, I'm not convinced that he would have made the moves that Dorsey has made.. I think he would still be playing it safe and stockpiling for some future that might never come.


yebat' Putin
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Likes: 136
E
Legend
Offline
Legend
E
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Likes: 136
1. Bozo, is reserved for the media...lol laugh

2. Yes he was set up in a great position with Cap, youthful talent and envious draft picks. But that is how we were able to obtain a GM of his capabilities. Thank you Sashi although you didn't know you were setting things up for us to get our best GM!

3. I see toughness as a major key. I see love for the game and earning the opportunity to play as a key. I see the attention to SPEED as well as FOOTBALL. Rather risk on players with mistakes in hope that they mature and learn. Then risk on Goody goody guys who have tremendous measureables but are not really that good in the game of football.

4. I see the risk reward players being invested in with mid to late round picks. In the past we have utilized the great measurable risks on pretty high draft picks.

5. I see somebody who has taken the bull by the horns and leaves no question on WHO IS IN CHARGE! When there is no set leadership it seemed to have created the environment to compete for the Final Power...not where we want competition at. Dorsey is the top Dawg! No Ifs, Ands or Buts about it!

Everything is lining up for us to be a successful Franchise again!

Thanks to Haslam, he doesn't get the respect around here but he created this environment!

jmho


Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!

GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188
Likes: 13
D
Legend
Offline
Legend
D
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188
Likes: 13
Thanks to Haslam ...

rofl ...

Theres a reason he gets no respect around here ... hes been the worst owner in the history of professional sports so far ...

Not to mention the fact hes a thief ...




Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Likes: 136
E
Legend
Offline
Legend
E
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Likes: 136
Ok..and yet we got Dorsey. Saying the words don't make it so. Hate is a wonderful thing. Assuming this is the turnaround finally for the Franchise How can he be as the worst? Just luck, just coincidence. Come on Diam. Tell it like it is for you.

"Dont care what he does I've made up my mind and he will always be crud to me" There did it for you...lol laugh

I hate to get laughed at as if I'm stupid or something...smh so excuse my resistance.


Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!

GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,426
Likes: 15
Hall of Famer
Offline
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,426
Likes: 15
I just want the yellow paint concession .. Make a fortune paintin the Road !

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 67,658
Likes: 1336
P
Legend
Offline
Legend
P
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 67,658
Likes: 1336


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

#gmstrong
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188
Likes: 13
D
Legend
Offline
Legend
D
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188
Likes: 13
Sorry dawg ... i’m not gonna sweep the last 5 years or however long this POS has owned the team under the rug cause u dont like my opinion and think I was harsh on U ... the last 5 years .... THEY HAPPEND ... just because we may be here now does not erase the fact he made us the laughing stock of SPORTS not just the league over the last 5 years ....

What are u proudest of tabber ...

- firing Chud and his staff after an ENTIRE YEAR cause he supported the MORONS he hired in the FO ....

- or was it when he fired the MORONS he backed over Chud a month or so later ...

- was it when Mularkey or Wisenhunt or one of those guys came to interview after the Chud firing just to stick it up Banner and Dumbardis asses over how bad there interview process was the year before and to tell the thief he backed clueless bastards ....

Theres way to much in between full of LOSING SEASONS ... including 4 wins total in the last 3 years ... for times sake lets just fast forward to this year ....

- 0 wins ...

- the AJ trade fiasco ... i know i was SO PROUD OF MY BROWNS that week ... SO PROUD ...

- the HC and his sources and family throwing everyone under the bus ..

- the HC throwing the players under the bus very late in the season or right after it ended ...

Take your pick my friend ... lots of “great memories” to choose from ...

Sorry bro ... i root for the browns and it ain’t cause of this POS owner ...




Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Likes: 136
E
Legend
Offline
Legend
E
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Likes: 136
I'm not going to pick your choices that are sensationalized. Lets just take the Chud thing. He was gone and left the team in the hands of Banner. The whole Chud thing was a Banner thing not Haslam. He just took over the team and let Banner know that he was not the owner of the team.

He made mistakes and recognized it. But he kept doing one thing. Trying to get this team out of the HOLE it was in.

Proud. I'm proud of the build up we just did. For the first time we didn't do a half ars buildup but wiped the slate clean and. Proud. We created an environment to entice probably the best qualified GM to actually want to come here and Finish the job started. That is all I want from our owner.

1. Keep the team in Cleveland!
2. Create the opportunity for the right people to do their jobs.

So you tell me just what is there to be ashamed about.

We are finally a franchise who has their HEAD intact, Dorsey and is the man in charge...Owner will just give him what he wants which is what an owner should do.

Finding the right guy? Banner vs. Chud faction was not good. So he got rid of both.

Oh wait you mean you are telling me we were going to build this thing with Lombardi at the helm...lol yeah ok.

Hey wasn't happy with all the change and reboot but he didn't sit on his hands and then throw them up and sell the team. He tried to fix it...till he got it right. And guess what since 1999 we finally got it right under his watch. So yes, THANK YOU...I guess you just wish we would have kept ourselves in the quicksand we were in...Proud of that are you? You see two can play that game.

Just looking at the team today and I am proud of it. Haslam gets credit where it is due. I don't hate the guy like you obviously do. Too much JUDGEMENT for me.

I am proud of one thing. OUR BROWNS are in the best position they have ever been. that is what I'm proud of not the list you made as if that counts for today!

So go have the last word. Not going to banter around on this.
This club is in a good position finally. He's the owner. You can't just throw him under the bus for the bad and then give him no credit for the Good! Then there is some BIAS involved.

jmho


Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!

GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188
Likes: 13
D
Legend
Offline
Legend
D
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188
Likes: 13
If BIAS = embarrassed the crap out of the cleveland brown franchise ... then ya, i am BIASED ...

Banner/Chud was the FIRST YEAR ... then came Pet/Farmer/Shanny ... and Sashi/Hue worked out AWESOME ... TWO PEAS IN A POD ... rolleyes ...

U have this unique ability to blame everyone but the thief ... for instance ... u say he left Banner in charge making Banner the bad guy ... WHO LEFT HIM IN CHARGE ... thumbsup .....

U also say the thief was right in firing dumbardi and make fun of me for thinking leaving dumbardi in charge was a good thing .... ummm ... WHAT DID THE THIEF HIRE HIM TO DO ... u made my case for me ... wink

And bro ... im very EXCITED for the upcoming season ... u and i finally agree that theres reason for optimism .... BUT ... u act like were there all ready ... WE NEED TO DO IT FIRST ... and we’ll have a much better idea in 3 years if our optimism was warranted or if the thief brought in fools gold again ...




Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 2,808
Likes: 51
I
Dawg Talker
OP Offline
Dawg Talker
I
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 2,808
Likes: 51
do you pay attention to the confidence in Dorseys voice when he speaks ?
he sounds more excited about the turn around than just about anyone.
it seemed like the other GM were always carefully measuring their words but Dorsey just comes out and says it!

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,341
Likes: 98
P
Legend
Offline
Legend
P
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,341
Likes: 98
Yea Dorsey has a lot of confidence in what he is doing and that gives me more confidence ... thumbsup


John 3:16 Jesus said "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,544
P
Hall of Famer
Offline
Hall of Famer
P
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,544
Originally Posted By: MemphisBrownie
Originally Posted By: pblack18707
Originally Posted By: bbrowns32
Originally Posted By: pblack18707
.. stupid plan...


The Plan wasn't "stupid". Amongst other issues, it was a lack of commitment to see it through long term...


believe what you want.. to purposely make yourself into a expansion team is stupid.


Right. Because the roster Sashi, Hue, DePo, Berry initially inherited was a amazing, producing at a high level, & not old/slow at all! notallthere


Why the NFL Draft isn’t as important as it used to be

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/patri...trsI/story.html

the days of trying to build through the draft and gutting teams has been over for 10+ years...

Last edited by pblack18707; 05/03/18 01:46 PM.

being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,864
Likes: 26
BpG Offline
Hall of Famer
Offline
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,864
Likes: 26
Originally Posted By: pblack18707
Originally Posted By: MemphisBrownie
Originally Posted By: pblack18707
Originally Posted By: bbrowns32
Originally Posted By: pblack18707
.. stupid plan...


The Plan wasn't "stupid". Amongst other issues, it was a lack of commitment to see it through long term...


believe what you want.. to purposely make yourself into a expansion team is stupid.


Right. Because the roster Sashi, Hue, DePo, Berry initially inherited was a amazing, producing at a high level, & not old/slow at all! notallthere


Why the NFL Draft isn’t as important as it used to be

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/patri...trsI/story.html

the days of trying to build through the draft and gutting teams has been over for 10+ years...


Imagine someone from the Boston Globe, the antithesis of the Browns talking about team building. In the market of the team that has the greatest QB of all time, taken in the 6th round, talking about the draft “ain’t what it used to be”.

Teams like the Seahawks, Panthers, Raiders, Colts have all proven that theory incorrect in recent memory. All bottomed out and gutted, all ended up with Star players. Even the team they are pointing to in the Rams moved all the way to the top of the draft to get their QB.

I do not agree with their premise whatsoever.

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 12,828
Likes: 274
L
Legend
Offline
Legend
L
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 12,828
Likes: 274
Originally Posted By: DiamDawg
Thanks to Haslam ...

rofl ...

Theres a reason he gets no respect around here ....


LMAO!


[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]

gmstrong

-----------------

2023: The year we got a legit D.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Likes: 136
E
Legend
Offline
Legend
E
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Likes: 136
Just now it took you this long to be embarrassed at the franchise. Come on Diam why BS me. The adjectives you choose to describe the guy makes your bias obvious...and its not about the Browns but your assessment of the guy in your opinion.

Yeah understand the story about what happened. WHO left him in charge...lol laugh good one.

He stated that he had to put his time in the family business cause of the trouble that occurred. So he got Banner a football guy and owner wannabee to be HMIC.

Banner hired Lombardi...and again the fact you call him "THE THIEF" is proof of your bias. nuf said.

think what you want - excuse me for saying thanks to the owner for hiring Dorsey....yeah you are right I'm just a dumb ass!


Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!

GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 12,828
Likes: 274
L
Legend
Offline
Legend
L
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 12,828
Likes: 274
He keeps hiring and firing people. You do realize that sooner or later, the guy doing all that hiring and firing might be the one who is the problem????


[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]

gmstrong

-----------------

2023: The year we got a legit D.
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The culture that Dorsey is creating the biggest difference I see...

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5