The Eagles certainly laid to rest the idea that "If you have 2 QB, you don't have any."
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
We could have sat Kizer for 5 years and he still would have sucked.
This is where your wrong, because Kizer never sucked.
Do you realize Kizer was only 21 years old last year? Mayfield is already 23.
In terms of "pure talent" I'd take Kizer over Mayfield. Kizer is bigger, a better runner, taller, a better arm, etc.
Kizer is a guy that had we kept him on the bench behind Taylor for 2 years we would have had our guy moving forward the next decade.
Kizer done nothing last year but make typical rookie mistakes whichjust so happens that on a god awful roster we had last year just made them look worse.
The Browns roster last year was THE WORST roster in NFL history...that roster was worse then the Detroit Lions 0-16 roster...what did you expect a 21 year old rookie who needed to sit with a bonehead coach in Jackson having him throw the ball 40 times a was going to accomplish?
Kizer will sit behind Rodgers in green bay for 2-3 years and at the ripe age of 24 will come out the gate and be a Pro Bowl QB for them. The Packers were VERY high on Kizer coming out, they jumped at the opportunity to get him...i'd trust the Packers coaches and FO over ours when it comes to evaluating talent...if the Packers wanted Kizer that means he is a good player with potential to be very good with proper coaching.
purely from a "talent perspective" Kizer is better then anyone who came out of the draft this year.
Kizer was our Steve McNair...like McNair he needed to sit a year or two to learn...he will get that opportunity in Green Bay.
there was ALOT to like about Kizer last year IF you knew what to look for and how to properly evaluate a 21 year old rookie QB that is literally just a kid...he just became legal age to drink for petes sake! far too soon to give up on him.
The Packers will reap the rewards of our suffering.
the Browns should have traded for Taylor and allowed Taylor and Kizer to battle in camp and took Barkley instead of Mayfield...Kizer was fartoo young, and has way too much talent to give up on. Haley would have been the perfect guy to get Kizer on the right track, as Haley has a good track record with QB....there was sooooooo much talent their with Kizer....I lament a wasted opportunity....
I don't see why people think sitting a quarterback is some magical formula to make him great. We could have sat Kizer for 5 years and he still would have sucked.
I'm sure it's case by case for each quarterback whether sitting is a good thing or not. Lots of quarterbacks didn't sit. And when September rolls around Mayfield will know what he needs to do on the field, he will just need to DO it on the field to gain experience. Sitting him is only impeding his development.
I actually think the disrespect here isn't to Tyrod, but to Mayfield. Play the man.
At the very least, he has to adjust to the speed of the NFL game. I would prefer as much of that adjustment happen in a practice setting as possible. There's also learning an NFL playbook, operating within a pro offense, operating under center, hitting smaller windows with throws vs throwing to receivers that are running free all over the field...
There's actually quite a bit he needs to learn, and he should be afforded the chance to learn that within the confines of practice (as much as is possible) instead of a game.
Yes, Kizer could have still sucked. But I don't think he would've sucked nearly as bad. He wasn't ready, and that contributed to his issues.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
Honestly, I don't care who starts week one as long as there is consistency.
It's a bad look when you bench a starter, have the back up play poorly and then go back to the starter again. Often in the same game.
If TT plays poorly, which I do not expect, and loses the job, he should lose the job for the remainder of the season. Be decisive!
That also goes if Baker wins the job in training camp (like Kizer), stick with him don't waffle like they did last year. After a while, Kizer was getting seemingly yanked in games each week.
Wonder if he could equal that TT production starting game one, and I don't think he possibly can or any rook for that matter. That is a great place to set the bar for him to clear; match or beat that output to start (not because of injury start). The preseason will be intriguing to see.
TT starts. Too much production to turn our back on as we learn new stuff and gel IMO.
I think TT starts as well.. but in your scenario, everybody agrees preseason is different and that defenses change dramatically when the regular season starts. So there is absolutely no way to know if he can match TT's production until you make the decision.. it's not like we get to play the Steelers with Mayfield, see what happens, and then request a do-over to see if TT can do better.
That's what makes the week 1 decision so difficult and why it's better to err on the side of caution... once you decide it's time to go for Mayfield, you can't go back. I can't think of a single time when that has worked out well. (not just for us but for anybody in the NFL)
Thank God you are not in charge. Kizer over Mayfield - please. Seriously - thanks for the good laugh.
The only thing Kizer has over Mayfield is size and I mean the only thing.
Agreed. I respect Kizer because he gave it his best shot, he acted with class, and he just kept coming back. I mean, he lasted a whole season. Not many Browns QBs have done that.
That being said, IMO these guys aren't even in the same league. Kizer, mechanics fixed and everything, will never be the passer that Mayfield is.
I think it'll also be safe to say that Baker probably, mentally, has a better grasp of football than Kizer. Sure, he'll need to learn the NFL Concepts and stuff. But Mayfield, just the type of guy he is, I think he'll be far ahead of Kizer in terms of reading coverages/defenses and making solid decisions.
Kizer has hopes to be a solid backup in this league. He might someday get a chance to start a bit again. But Mayfield's ceiling is far higher. Hence why one guy was a second round pick and the other was the first pick of hte draft.
I hope Tyrod Starts...and plays awesome all season... I'm done with the QB failure in Cleveland...That QB list is as long as my hair growing up in the 60's -70's and that has got me nothing but a buzz getting rid of all that useless hair...lol
I like TT.. Stanton.. and Mayfield ... Lets hope it goes well..
Tyrod is not elite but IMO he is above average. He will be the best QB we've had in years.
He looks after the football, can scamper, and now has some potential weapons to go to battle with. He might just take us to the playoffs in 2018, and I don't care if people think I'm crazy.
I agree my notion is difficult to apply, and we are learning from our own past mistakes to try to switch up on the fly and start multiple guys at QB from week to week. But there are some measurable from practice and skull work, and if he can't prove out in preseason measurables, then he isn't there and ready. I like the idea of some limited and controlled sets to see how he works in game. Limited but real exposure, bullets flying.
Hope TT is ready to go to war, and take BM with him. I concede the obvious point. But we need to approach this differently this season.
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
I don't think we want to go in to next year(19) with him not playing.
This type of mentality is old and worn out. If TT is healthy, playing well, and winning games we won't be seeing Baker starting for a couple of years.
Ok....I guess I am tired and worn out.
But we would have to sign TT to a new contract for him to play after this year.
I am good keeping him for 10 more years if we are playing well. I just don't see us signing him to another contract.
That is the tired and worn out reason I wouldn't want to go in to the 19 season with Mayfield not have some meaningful experience under the belt.
Worked for Carson Palmer. Kitna played that whole season, if I remember correctly. And Palmer was awesome in Cincy until Kim Von Offanhoffan decided to blindly take a cheap shot at Carson's knee and turn a guy whose career path was headed to very high places ad knock it down a few knotches.
But, for me, I say, if Mayfield is honestly ready to start and he's better than Tyrod, I don't see why not.
I'm happy we brought in Tyrod Taylor, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit if Baker Mayfield proved himself a better QB pretty quickly.
I get that the NFL is a whole other animal, but, so is Baker Mayfield.
Tyrod gets overrated by a lot of posters on here, and I hope some folks are ready for a bit of a let down. He's efficient by numbers, but there's a reason why Buffalo has wanted to move on from him for awhile.
I have no complaint about the 3rd round pick spent on him. And he's the starter until he gets beaten out, and he's a better starter than most we've had in awhile. Especially when put in good situations. He's a very steady player. And, he's going to come prepared and ready to compete. He certainly will not give away the job. Not on a contract year.
But, I wouldn't be surprised, at all, if Baker Mayfield quickly starts figuring this NFL game out, and he shows at least at some point this season, that he is ready (and should be) the starter.
And if Baker is ready to go and better than Tyrod, I don't see why we'd beat around the bush.
As you said earlier, Tyrod is signed on a one year deal. I do not see him re-signing with us, and I do not see us re-signing him.
I think Buffalo has been looking for another Jim Kelly. Big, strong, pocket passer for a long downfield game, and they got Allen. Just what the fans wanted. Jim Kelly part deux.
Tyrod taking them to the playoffs didn't matter...
The Cleveland Browns - WE KNOW QUARTERBACKS ( Look at how many we've had ... )
I think Buffalo has been looking for another Jim Kelly. Big, strong, pocket passer for a long downfield game, and they got Allen. Just what the fans wanted. Jim Kelly part deux.
Tyrod taking them to the playoffs didn't matter...
I guess you could say Tyrod led them to the playoffs. I don't really like the word "Taking" there. It makes it sound Lebron James-esque or something.
I stand by what I say. The guy's an okay QB. I'd say a below average starting QB, but above average NFL QB. Better than most anything we've had recently.
But Tyrod is no Alex Smith (whom I think we also tried to trade a third for). And he's not at the level of those kinds of guys. He is a step below IMO.
The thing is that I don't think a rookie QB is honestly ready game one.
It is far better for the kids development to maybe bring him in a little late v to early.
When we drafted Bernie in the supplemental, I don't think he played until maybe week 7 or 8. Gary Danielson did..
He will play soon enough.
Oh, he certainly will.
We shall see. Hopefully there's no pressure to play him. I just think that Baker Mayfield is further along than most 1st round Rookie Quarterbacks in preparedness.
This won't be like Deshone Kizer last year. He's pretty much started 4 years of College Football, 5 years in College Football Programs, and word has it, his football IQ is very good. Mix that with the talk that he's a quick learner.
I don't think starting early could really hurt the guy. Plenty of successful quarterbacks do. Every QB in our division did, and I don't think them starting from week 1 hurt any of them. I just wouldn't be surprised, if he clearly beats out Tyrod Taylor, he might start.
If he doesn't clearly beat out Tyrod, we have Tyrod Taylor for the entire season. So we should be okay in either scenario
I don't think it matters if you sit or you play, you gain experience on the field, that's how you get better.
Very rarely does a quarterback come in his first season and lead the team to a winning record....
Palmer sat a year, but when he played the team was 6-7 in his starts the first season, the next season he went to the playoffs.
People say all the time look at Rodgers. He sat for 3 years, and went 6-10 his first season before he had a winning season.
Carson Wentz, Jared Goff two more examples of losing the first season then winning their second. Winston and Mariota two more.
So... if history repeats, if we play Mayfield this season, we'll be good with him in 2019. If we play Tyrod and Baker sits a year, we'll probably have another so-so season in 2019 before Baker learns all the nuances of the NFL that can only be learned on the field. In that scenario we may not be winning until 2020.
Best thing for this franchise moving forward is for Baker to see the field ASAP. The writing is on the wall for Tyrod. I highly doubt he's going to be here past this year.
I am not saying we shouldn't play him next year. We should unless we are winning and in the playoff hunt.
Let him learn how to pack his suitcase. Let him learn the speed and flow of the game on the sidelines for a while. Let him signal in some calls so when he finally gets out there he knows them front and back. Signaling them in will better help him call them in the huddle.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
I don't think it matters if you sit or you play, you gain experience on the field, that's how you get better.
Very rarely does a quarterback come in his first season and lead the team to a winning record....
Palmer sat a year, but when he played the team was 6-7 in his starts the first season, the next season he went to the playoffs.
People say all the time look at Rodgers. He sat for 3 years, and went 6-10 his first season before he had a winning season.
Carson Wentz, Jared Goff two more examples of losing the first season then winning their second. Winston and Mariota two more.
So... if history repeats, if we play Mayfield this season, we'll be good with him in 2019. If we play Tyrod and Baker sits a year, we'll probably have another so-so season in 2019 before Baker learns all the nuances of the NFL that can only be learned on the field. In that scenario we may not be winning until 2020.
Best thing for this franchise moving forward is for Baker to see the field ASAP. The writing is on the wall for Tyrod. I highly doubt he's going to be here past this year.
Both sides in this debate have made some great points and both sides could be right...or wrong.
I think Mayfield will get the chance to compete in TC for the starting spot. However, he will have to be demonstrably better than TT to be the opening day starter. If the competition is close, TT will get the nod.
I say that due to the state of flux that the entire team is in right now. There are so many moving parts this summer that a rookie QB better be headed for greatness if he can handle being the Captain of such a ship. It may not be TT or even Mayfield that makes TT the starter...it just may be that the team will have too much "inexperience as a team" to make it work with Mayfield early on.
Pig Pen came in as a rookie and won the SB. But he hardly had anything to do with that. Dalton came in and went to the playoffs but that team was on the verge of being really good for several years - in spite of his ridiculously mediocre play. Flacco was drafted by a team where the QB's primary responsibility was simply to NOT screw it up. The '18 Browns aren't like any of those teams were when they threw in the new guy.
I think Mayfield will get some good run after the bye week (11?) in a fashion ala Mahommes but not until later - even if he's the "best" QB coming out of camp.
The plan was always to have the NUMBER ONE pick sit and learn for a year. The plan was always to WIN in 2018.
As good as TT is there is that possibility that Mayfield will hasten the variables needed for him to qualified as READY. The kid is football smart and I know one thing, he is going to push TT as he will work hard to start from game #1.
I want the plan to remain, TT starts and Mayfield learns. But I can see the Mayfield era starting a lot sooner than all would expect.
We also have the Steelers in game one who do play dirty as they have the REFs in their back pocket. How many times do our QBs get taken out with Players obtaining fines but yet there is no flag thrown on the field for the incident. Usually right in front of the REFEREE (white hat).
So it won't surprise me that the Steelers game plan is to put TT out of the game!
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
I made a post earlier defending why Baker should sit. He has plenty on his plate just getting used to the speed of the pro game and the fact that unlike in college, in the pros everyone is an All American talent. That's a lot to get used to and on top of it is learning a new, more complicated offense as well as a more complicated defense in which to run it against. Talent or no talent there's a lot other stuff that can be overwhelming just for starters.
There's another reason to sit Mayfield for an extended time and that is all the changes the team has gone through. A lot of new players from FA who haven't played together yet. The defense will take a bit of time to get used to each other. Until they do the defense can be shaky and a young QB needs a good defense on his side.
On offense there is a change of scheme with Haley developing game plans and calling plays. Everyone on the offensive side of the ball has a lot to learn with the new terminology and playing with new players while getting used to each other in a new scheme.
In this 'start over' situation a veteran QB is much more experienced and qualified to roll with the changes and run the offense. He's been through enough changes already in his career it will be easier for him to adapt to the new players and new offense.
I propose that TT starts the season and unless he stinks it up he should see the team through the changes while the players get used to each other and the new schemes. Get the whole team up to speed on the changes and give them time to gel together before throwing in the rookie QB to struggle in it at the same time everybody else is struggling in it too.
Let the team develop first, both offense and defense, before inserting the rookie QB. Asking Baker to excel at QB while everyone else is struggling to acclimate at the same time is a tall order. Let the team iron themselves out so when the rookie takes over the whole team will contribute to helping him.
I expect Taylor to start. He is only on a 1 year contract, so Mayfield will be starting in 2019, unless Taylor "Wrecks the league." In which case, he will get franchised for a second year. If he is average, then he will be a Free Agent and move on. This is Taylor's free agent Contract year, so I do not expect him to slouch.
The Cleveland Browns - WE KNOW QUARTERBACKS ( Look at how many we've had ... )
I agree. I expect Taylor to be highly motivated; he's basically playing for the rest of his career this season. He's got to play well to either stay here or earn a contract somewhere else.
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
Tyrod is not elite but IMO he is above average. He will be the best QB we've had in years.
He looks after the football, can scamper, and now has some potential weapons to go to battle with. He might just take us to the playoffs in 2018, and I don't care if people think I'm crazy.
You're not Crazy.
This Callaway Kat needs to stay clean.
Looking at this Roster, we've got some serious weapons across the board on Offense.
MAYFIELD MUST sit to start the season. MUST. I want him playing but we gotta give him some games to watch how the NFL operates.
I will say this. Taylor. IF, with the weapons on this team, he goes through about 4 games and STILL has that PATHETIC YPA of around 6.5 I'm pulling him and starting the FUTURE at that point.
A YPA like that is indicative of Taylor doing that same BS dinking he did in Buffalo. And that ain't gonna fly with the weapons we have on Offense.
With Tyrod as our starter we should be fine. With the added weapons on offense Taylor should be able to help win games. When Baker's time comes the transition should be smooth. Sooner or later Baker will get his chance but in the beginning at least, Taylor is the QB for the Browns.
I just want a winner. We need players who can be part of the solution not part of the problem.
JC: I think earlier in this thread I stated that if Baker shows he can start and perform better than Tyrod, he should.
I've changed my mind after watching what I think was a Terry Pluto video. Some sort of video at least.
I'd like to bring Baker along this season and not put him in until we're absolutely sure.
After the season, barring some elite play by Tyrod, Baker will start. I just don't see us keeping Tyrod in 2019 under the franchise tag at some price like 30 million a season.
The reason being, once we put Baker in, we can't go back. There's no return. He is the starter and will remain the starter for seasons to come. That's why, when having a QB like Tyrod Taylor, we should let Baker learn all he can so that he can put his best foot forward from the start.
Like many have said, and I've recognized, Taylor is still somewhat young and coming into his contract year. This is a huge one for him, and he'll certainly be bringing it. I don't think the Buzz about Baker will phase him too much. I don't think his feelings/ego will get hurt if the media is pushing/focusing on Mayfield. He's just going to lock-in and work his butt off.
I'm not a particularly big fan of the guy. I think he gets overrated by many on here (although underrated by a few as well, but I think more-so overrated).
Anyway, I've moved toward the bring Baker around slowly camp. Maybe try to hold off starting him till at least the Bye Week in the Later Half of the Season. Cause, as I said, if we throw Baker out there, and he's not ready, there's no switching back. Once the training wheels are off, they're off. And that's gonna be our guy for the foreseeable future. So let's be really sure before we take the keys from Tyrod and hand them to Baker
The reason being, once we put Baker in, we can't go back. There's no return. He is the starter and will remain the starter for seasons to come. That's why, when having a QB like Tyrod Taylor, we should let Baker learn all he can so that he can put his best foot forward from the start.
i agree ... let TT have as much time as possible
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
"Kizer will sit behind Rodgers in green bay for 2-3 years and at the ripe age of 24 will come out the gate and be a Pro Bowl QB for them." ===========================================================
Easy there.
Look I agree that Kizer was in a no win situation. And that he was forced into a role he was unprepared for.
At he same time he was continuing to make the same mistakes. You are supposed to learn from mistakes.
In addition he rarely showed the ability to put touch on the ball. He muscled throws on shallow routes and was partly responsible for drops. Ball placement was another thing that did not improve.
I have nothing against Kizer and wish him well. He was put into a tough spot and he played like what he was; a rookie on a bad team.
But we shall see about his future. Pro Bowl?
He was inconsistent in college. He should have returned to ND. The issues he had in college were the same he showed as a pro not real accurate and spotty decision making.
The Browns had a good look at him. They made the decision to move on.
He won't be anything unless he learns accuracy, placement, and anticipation .... learns to read a defense .....and not to panic in the red zone.
I have my doubts that he becomes anything, long term.
I remember when we were preparing to dump Charlie Frye, and the Fat Walrus traded for him. We has some who went nuts, talking about how Frye would be an All Pro under the Walrus's tutelage. Yeah .. that never happened.
Coaches love to talk up players they traded for. Maybe Kizer looks good against air .... with no pressure, and/or difficult game situations ..... but we'll see how he does in games ... even pre-season games. I bet that he looks quite a bit like he did last year.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
He won't be anything unless he learns accuracy, placement, and anticipation .... learns to read a defense .....and not to panic in the red zone.
I have my doubts that he becomes anything, long term.
I remember when we were preparing to dump Charlie Frye, and the Fat Walrus traded for him. We has some who went nuts, talking about how Frye would be an All Pro under the Walrus's tutelage. Yeah .. that never happened.
Coaches love to talk up players they traded for. Maybe Kizer looks good against air .... with no pressure, and/or difficult game situations ..... but we'll see how he does in games ... even pre-season games. I bet that he looks quite a bit like he did last year.
When Frye left the Browns, he was a finished product, IMHO. don't think the main issue with Frye was teachable..
We can argue that Kizer on the other hand, spent one year learning from one of the worst coaches in the history of the NFL...It was very evident to all, that he was not progressing not learning, so maybe the main fault wasn't Kizer's.
In a stable environment and with good coaching, maybe Kizer will develop...It's not that far-fetched although, IMHO, also not probable..
We could have sat Kizer for 5 years and he still would have sucked.
This is where your wrong, because Kizer never sucked.
Do you realize Kizer was only 21 years old last year? Mayfield is already 23.
In terms of "pure talent" I'd take Kizer over Mayfield. Kizer is bigger, a better runner, taller, a better arm, etc.
Kizer is a guy that had we kept him on the bench behind Taylor for 2 years we would have had our guy moving forward the next decade.
Kizer done nothing last year but make typical rookie mistakes whichjust so happens that on a god awful roster we had last year just made them look worse.
The Browns roster last year was THE WORST roster in NFL history...that roster was worse then the Detroit Lions 0-16 roster...what did you expect a 21 year old rookie who needed to sit with a bonehead coach in Jackson having him throw the ball 40 times a was going to accomplish?
Kizer will sit behind Rodgers in green bay for 2-3 years and at the ripe age of 24 will come out the gate and be a Pro Bowl QB for them. The Packers were VERY high on Kizer coming out, they jumped at the opportunity to get him...i'd trust the Packers coaches and FO over ours when it comes to evaluating talent...if the Packers wanted Kizer that means he is a good player with potential to be very good with proper coaching.
purely from a "talent perspective" Kizer is better then anyone who came out of the draft this year.
Kizer was our Steve McNair...like McNair he needed to sit a year or two to learn...he will get that opportunity in Green Bay.
there was ALOT to like about Kizer last year IF you knew what to look for and how to properly evaluate a 21 year old rookie QB that is literally just a kid...he just became legal age to drink for petes sake! far too soon to give up on him.
The Packers will reap the rewards of our suffering.
the Browns should have traded for Taylor and allowed Taylor and Kizer to battle in camp and took Barkley instead of Mayfield...Kizer was fartoo young, and has way too much talent to give up on. Haley would have been the perfect guy to get Kizer on the right track, as Haley has a good track record with QB....there was sooooooo much talent their with Kizer....I lament a wasted opportunity....
Wow. I could't disagree more, but i wish him the best.
Maybe it's just your wording, but I don't agree with that at all. There are VERY few QBs that could operate well with the level of instability we have on a yearly basis here. Saying a 2nd-round, 21-year old rookie couldn't put a torn-down-to-the-studs roster on his shoulders and shut out the drama/instability going on around him... imo, isn't really saying that much about Kizer.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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