DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Multiple fatalities reported after shooting at high school in Texas; shooter arrested

Well, dangit - that's inconvenient for the anti gunners.

So, he used a shot gun? Ban the hell out of them. And, he used a revolver? (so much for the 'ban large capacity magazines)

And dammit - he possessed them illegaly? We MUST make another law! A law that would make me a felon for even owning a shot gun or a revolver. Certainly, another law would prevent this. It would also prevent me from owning a shot gun that I use to shoot clay pigeons with, and prevent me from owning a shotgun that I use to hunt deer with (slugs).

That will fix the problem.

So if these nuts were carrying butter knives we'd still be havint this conversation? Blaming it solely on the person is just as bad as solely blaming it on the weapon.

The shotgun and revolver are correct .... heard it from the press conference from one of the officials ... they were owned legally by his dad ...

He had pipe bomb and other explosive type stuff with him ... not sure exaclty what ... none of it was used ...

That's a great point and I guess that absolves your leader of congress smh

by the way most of the original members were from latin American countries so lets try this the gang ms13 was formed here VIA LATIN AMERICA is that better

Who else are you going to blame it on?

MS 13 opened for business in the City of Angels. Then like many other american businesses it moved its base of operations out of this country and they decided on El Salvatore as their final home base and now they import back to the good ole USA ....

The plight of many businesses started in the US ...

It is a combination of things - part person, part gun laws, part mental healthcare, part media, part parenting, part society. I'm sure I'm missing several, and in some of these horrible events I'm sure that some of those aren't the case.

IMHO, people that can influence change are more focused on either blaming guns or blaming the person than on undestanding and fixing the issues that allow it to happen.

Quick expanation on the above - it isn't complete or really thought out, just a brain dump - so it isn't nearly perfect.

Part Person - Obviously it takes a person to do this, there’s no arguing this fact. So, a large portion of the blame squarely goes here. Root cause analysis would certainly give us other underlying issues.

Part Gun Laws – First, I support gun rights – I’ve gone shooting, I have several friends that are advocates and actively shoot and hunt, and my dad is a collector. I support our rights to have guns. We’ll never keep guns away from bad people, but I do think there are things that can be done to reduce the chances that things like this happen.

Part Mental Healthcare – stigma is part of it still (people don’t want/”need” to see a shrink regardless of whether they should or not), part of it is the larger healthcare issues we have (cost, quality), and part of it is related to the proliferation of meds

Part Media – stop “glamorizing” these, and they’ll reduce in number. Don’t give these killers any face time\their 15 minutes. Focus on those who passed and those who survived.

Part Parenting – if you have kids, be a good parent. Talk to your kids, be there, show them love.

Part Society – media wouldn’t glamorize if people didn’t want it, we allow it and don’t really fight for change (Parkland kids are, but look at what that turned into from both sides), NRA and its advocates fight everything with respect to gun laws (or so it seems) regardless if they’re good for the country, guns are an issue but the left (so it seems) seems to mostly focus on changing gun laws and not the rest, etc…

1 Officer to 9 Students is unreasonable...that is like 2-3 officers per classroom where I am from. Cost effective would be 1 per classroom ......that cuts you proposal by 2/3....is cost effective.....(ps....one per classroom is too much IMO).

I don't think this problem will ever change because we live in a free society and human have emotions that are affected by too many things. There will always be demented people who commit heinous crimes regardless of the vector.

My concern is on how we keep our kids safe. I have three boys and would prefer they not be gunned down by a madman. I keep hearing people mentioning putting guards in schools . Yet I do not hear anyone mention it as a full proposal including cost. Just an assumption that we could do it cheaply, or at least cheaply enough to offset adding any gun control measures that would otherwise be proposed.

j/c:

I am neither pro-gun or anti-gun, so I guess both sides won't like my message.

I worked in an alternative school in E. Cleveland. It was a school for kids who were kicked out of public E. Cleveland schools [which takes some doing.] Much of our student population were in gangs. Others were there because they thought the school was safer than other E. Cleveland schools. We had:

--Armed guards
--Metal detectors
--Dogs who could sniff out drugs, bombs, guns, etc

It was not a happy place. One of the most important things for kids is to feel they are in a safe and inviting environment. Our school resembled a prison in certain aspects.

With that said, I don't think the answer to solving these types of crimes is stricter gun control. I think the problem is far deeper and much more complex than gun laws.

We have a huge number of children who have emotional and mental issues. We have laws and policies in place that promote poor and irresponsible behavior. The bleeding heart policies of the last 20 plus years are not working and instead are creating more monsters and furthering the divide between our youths.

Hard, drastic action needs to be considered. It won't be pretty, but something must be done to retard the escalating path of violent acts by our children.

yep, it's a good read



Yea, I was being a bit condescending. It's really hard to not be at least a bit of a jerk when you said we should talk about security, I brought up numbers, and you disregarded it without any evidence of your own. Granted, I come from a background where if someone says something is wrong, I need a smoking gun to agree with their assessment. Someone telling me I'm wrong, without even an attempted reason why is not going to put me in a good mood. You didn't mention brainstorming at all in your prior post, just that I was being unreasonable. That's a big difference.



I agree that this is not a one sized fits all solution. I agree that we should control ingress/egress points in schools. I agree that we should have more sensible gun purchasing laws. I don't like the ideas of teachers carrying primarily because their responsibility is to teach, not defend. I'd rather bulk up security with people trained specifically to security. 9 per students may sound like overkill, BUT thats the rough number used to keep inmates safe in prison. We could probably fine tune that number, but there should be a student:guard ratio involved as many shooters are students themselves, so if they got guns past security they could wait until they were far from the exits and start shooting.

Cutting the cost of guards by 2/3rds alone would still increase your taxes somewhere around 16-17% a year per my proposal. The cost is not just in the guards.

I am concerned, as well, with keeping our kids safe.

So, explain further about your 'gun control' measures. What are they? Background checks? Already have that on MOST sales.

Eliminate private sales/purchases without a back ground check? Okay.

Ban certain types of guns? Ok. For what?

Bottom line is, short of banning ALL guns (which, no way in hell that happens), all we can do by passing more laws is make people like me, turn their guns in, or be a felon. The majority of gun crime/injuries/murders in this country is drug related. And I understand that the drug shootings aren't as dramatic as school shootings.

But, why should I, an owner of a gun or 2, have to RE register with the fed. gov't? What benefit is me, RE registering going to have? They already have my info.

What is a NEW law going to do, other than make the anti gunners feel better? Nothing. Period.

Ban all guns? (because, that's what some on here feel)? Then what? The bad guys won't give a GM fart. People like me will lose their guns - for what?



School safety? All for it.

Ban AR-15's, and all 'mean looking' rifles. If the reports I've heard are true, this kid today used a shotgun and a revolver. Now what? Ban those as well?




There is this discussion that we need to eliminate certain guns, for the safety of people. I get it. I really do.

Wanna know why I will disagree with it? Because it won't stop. Give an inch, you say? Can't, because an inch becomes a mile. Can you understand? The kid today didn't, apparently, use a semi auto rifle. He used a gun that is so common place in this country........and a revolver. (again, if what i've been reading is accurate)

Bad people exist. Period. Ain't no law that will change that. Go ahead, try to ban AR-15's, (and the multitude of similar guns), then what?

You're assuming my talking points and trying to cut me off at the pass. You've assumed my position without listening to me. Why do this arch?

That said, my view on gun control is that we do not ban any type of gun but that all gun purchases require some form of 3rd party interview. Massachusetts requires you to interview with your local police chief. Their gun death rate is the lowest in the nation https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/359395002 . You can try to argue that it doesn't work, but the statistics demonstrate otherwise, and there are several similar states to compare the stats against.

Yeah, well, if you took it as me calling YOU out, I apologize.

My whole point is, there is no debate, or discussion. When gun owners start giving in, it will only energize the 'ban all guns' crowd. And trust me, they are out there.

Let's get rid of bumpstocks. Awesome. (you know, you can bumpfire with nothing but a pair of pants that has belt loops?)

Let's ban high capacity magazines. Cool. 45 round mags, 30, 20, 15, and now they want to ban 10 round mags.

Cool. Ban them. It makes it easier to ban the next thing.

Uh oh, it was a shotgun used today? Damn well better ban those nasty shotguns. Oh, a revolver was used? Ban them also.







See how slippery this damn slope is?

My guns haven't caused any person ANY injury, at all, ever. Yet, for many of 'you', you're all in favor of taking guns. Slowly, of course. Mandating certain guns be banned, certain magazines, etc. You know, new laws. And who abides by the new laws? Me. Know who doesn't? The theif's, criminals, and those that don't give a rip about laws.

What about the ones using knives, explosives, motor vehicles and planes what laws do you enact for those? What type of back ground checks do you do for them?

As long as there are NUTS in the equation you will have evil you cannot completely stop evil you can try to make it harder to commit the evil but if the NUT wants to kill the NUT will find a way. So yes I blame the nut!

No problem on the condescension ... i been known to do it every once in a great while ... ...

I tend to treat people the way they treat me ... you try and discuss and have conversations as opposed to just coming in with the club most of us are wielding 97.3% of the time ... *L* ... i’ll chat with u anytime ...

It seems were not that far apart in principal ... we agree on some things right out of the gate ...

as far as teachers carrying ... i don’t see why that would affect there ability to teach ... if something goes down they react and do something other than be a sitting duck ... other than that its business as usual ... i could see where it may affect them mentally for the first few weeks or a month if they’ve never carried before ... if its not “natural” by then, they prolly shouldn’t be carrying anyways ...

I’m sure we could work out a solution of some sort there if we were pressed ... maybe do a “test market” and measure the results ....

The optimal solution for safety would be the armed guards ... one in each room ... thats way to cost prohibitive but we need some w/o breaking the bank ... thats why we need to figure out something we the teachers carrying ...

Thank god the armed gaurd was there today ... as HORRIFIC as it was, it could have been alot worse ...

Frankly, I don't know who could argue with that. In many ways, we need changes in the way we look at society, from the ground up. The path we're on is not working in many cases.

Shot in the head, through and through, at home tonight recovering!

That is incredible. God blessed that young man, that's for sure.

Arch, unfortunately I do see the slippery slope. I say unfortunately because this is a slippery slope you've invented. While you've correctly pointed out the informal fallacy, you do not realize that the source of the logic failure is you. We've had gun laws get stronger over time (see FOPA, NFA), and gun laws get weaker over time (Castle Doctrine).

If your view is that any additional gun regulations will lead to an outright ban, you will of course not support it, and any discussion on gun regulations is essentially a moot point for you, as the only acceptable outcome is to not enact any new regulations.



You're making assumptions. You do know I own guns, yes? Who exactly do you mean by 'you'? Like you, I would prefer to continue to own my shotguns, pistols and AR-15. Especially my WW2 spec 1911. Big fan of that gun. I just know it to be true that we can have an environment where we can appropriately discourage unwell people from acquiring firearms while also letting stable gunowners the ability to use their guns.

Some people live miles and miles away from police, and some people rely on hunting to acquire food. You aren't going to see me advocate for a full gun ban. But you will see me argue that we should do what we can to keep guns out of the hands of bad people.

My boys have been in the NICU for over 2 weeks, so I think that's a great source of my short fuse too. I'll be in better spirits once they are home, even if I have no idea how I'm going to sleep for the next 3 months! No worries Diam.



We both know it's of critical importance that kids not get shot down in schools. So that's a start for sure.

My concern with teachers being armed is that their primary function is not security. So while they are teaching, you could argue they are distracted in a way. And having a gun while distracted is not really useful. You will be slower to respond than someone who's primary duty is safety. You could drop the gun and have a kid pick it up (even if helping) which isn't good. A kid could grab the gun, and now they have a loaded pistol in a full classroom. I think of this sort of situation as not terribly different from that of a prison. You want a single point of ingress/egress, close monitoring of the people inside who may act out at any time, and have to be aware of external threats as well. The only people in a prison who carry guns are those in the tower and anyone who is on patrol outside the prison walls. Inside the prison it's extremely rare for the guards to be packing more than a taser. It's just too risky to carry a gun around so many unknown elements. That's why I'm leery of teachers being armed.

Hugs Gage. Didn't know your sons had been born.

Gage, you keep talking about the billions it would take in new tax burdens.....but just like the demonrat party...you only offer tax increases as a solution to funding with the assumption that the current spending on who knows what is justified and coukd never never be cut....I just read an article today about salaries of administrators in schools in NE Indiana.....in the area I speak they documented 105 amdmin positions in this areas schools that paid over $100k annual....and not one was a teacher....don’t get me started on the $$ sport on new highschool sports complexes...there is already lots of money thaT can be redirected to fund safer schools if that is the priority.

Thanks Eve! They are eating better and should hopefully be home in a few days. NICU isn't a fun place to be but in grateful their only problem seems to be being twins (aka their house was crowded so a bit smaller for age)

Congrats bro ... so happy for u ...

Sorry to hear about what sounds like whats hopefully short term health issues ... Good Luck with that sir ...

Good luck with that ...

Do u have a date to bring them home yet? ...

Glad to hear that your little ones will be home soon. That's great news.

Good luck getting any sleep for the next year, or so.

Demonrat is a new one. Good work

The reason I keep bringing up the cost is because people keep saying make the schools safer, without offering a proposal. Im not going to claim my proposal is accurate to the penny but it would be accurate to the order of magnitude at the very least. Someone saying we can fix this cheaply without a proposal is not debating in good faith.

Your counterproposal unfortunately is not at all going to offset the billions it would cost. Your school administrators making over 100k? If you fired every last one of them you'd only save 10.5 million a year. As for new sport complexes, if we put a new HS stadium at 25 million (guess here, hard to find data) with 910 schools in Ohio with 20 year use rate amortized, that's 1.14 billion a year. That's for bulldozing and making new, not improving old structures. So we could never make or improve a HS football stadium ever again, and still not even come close to the proposed price increase. Do you have additional student activities you would like to cut? I'm not sure they would make a dent at this point but I'm all ears.

We need to do something. We have the largest firearm homicide rate by a large margin than other developed nation's. The US has 31% of the world's mass shooters. We have more guns than people and that number is almost 2:1 over the second most armed nation. We have to act it's just a matter of how.

If we want to make schools safer we gotta pay up. The only other reasonable alternative I could think to curb violence is widescale gun legislation reform, but I don't see that gaining traction anytime soon. There you aren't paying in dollars but in freedom of gun ownership. I don't foresee any other solution that will curb this school violence problem, but I'm open to other ideas.

Thanks Diam and YTown. The health issues is just them eating a full bottle. They will figure it out. I expect to not sleep at all in the months after they come home, lol. We don't have a date but probably a few days.

J\C

After all the tons of evidence that was discovered by the authorities about the florida shooter I recall an FBI agent said the reason they didn't take action because that they didn't want to get sued ....I guess that you can attribute that directly to the P.C. culture that the libs so dearly cling to...but before I get throttled by the libs here if my recollection is incorrect I stand corrected

Okay PIT blastaway

Wait, what ? LMAO !! I'm gonna throw this potentially made up story out there and BTW if it turns out I'm completely full of crap ...my bad !

Hmmmm that's a cold statement to the other victims who were shot and died . What, God didn't want to bless them ? They were done with the story that God had mapped out for them in the whole 16 years they were here ? Maybe thier parents weren't righteous enough and needed to be taught to be humble ? If you are gonna give God credit for saving this particular life is he not also accountable for the others ?

The answer to funding school safety lies in between cuts and increased taxes....it also lies in an evaluation of acceptable risk.....case inpoint....a kid should never be able to hang themselves in school...but we had tgat happen in an adjacent county twice last year....one from a gym locker and another from a bathroom stall....yet we don’t hear for banning the bathroom stall wall or the locker.....yet if they were not installed the kids would be alive (until they found another opportunity).

I say this in part because throwing money at problems has never worked....my kids HS can solve this safety issue fairly cheap. We already have one way entrances for students,parents and visitors via locked door that is video monitored and has security staffed at door. So we are already funding that and it won’t be a new cost. Upgrade entrance door with bullet proof glass...and lower windows if you want....but risk???? How many schools shooting have done outside in through windows and glass??? Is it worth the money for a measure that the chance of happening is 0.0000001% (yea I pulled that out of my butt)....

Most anything structurally can be done if you want to spend money...sometimes it just ain’t cost effective. My kids are priceless....but I am realistic too. I say that with 18 years of parenthood....I got a brother that just had a girl (she is a yr old) and watching him parent and be paranoid over EVERYHING is funny and tiresome. It pisses his wife off that has an older kid that she raised and went through that stage before.

Be worried about your kids....I get it....don’t live in fear of their safety....otherwise you will miss out on a bunch of awesome life events.

was that an audition for Fox news. Your show can come on right after Hannity's

I added his entire quote...

Yea, neither did I.. I did make comments about turning schools into prison-esque compounds having an emotional impact on kids.. but not once did I say a few armed guards would have that effect. In fact, I'm pretty sure if he goes to look, he will actually find where I said I thought armed officers were a good idea...

I'm also curious why he's shocked to be reading about another shooting after we had discussions about mental health and new laws.. exactly what progress has been attempted since the last school shooting or the one before that or the one before that? Clem buddy, you and I can talk about solutions and potential new laws all day long, but if nothing ever changes at the top, then nothing will change...

There was no derogatory intention towards any other person there. I was responding to the boy's circumstances in the video's account.

As far as what causes tragedy and horror in this world, well, man's sin has caused the fall of this world. It is man's choices that have created the problems we have. We continue to sin, and even to expand the ways in which we sin. This is why the world is in the condition it's in.

I am working on a sermon that I will be giving in my church when the Pastor is away, in July. I chose "Heaven" as my topic, because I believe that people, both Christians and other, have an incredibly incorrect idea of what heaven will actually be like. I bet if you ask most people, they would say something like "I'm sure it will be nice, but boring", or "Man, I don't want to sit around, all day long, floating on a cloud and playing a harp.", or similar things. However, that's not what heaven will be like.

It will be like the world was before Man's sin, in the Garden of Eden. Everything, and everyone, will be at peace with one another. There will be no death or disease. We'll be free to go into beautiful gardens, or a palace, or anywhere else we want. It will be heaven on earth, in the presence of God. It will be amazing. I believe that we will be able to do as Jesus did, and just "be" anywhere we want to go. Want to hang out at home? You're there. Want to go out and play with your dogs? You're there. Want to see another planet? No problem. Want to see what a flower looks like from the inside. You'll be able to do so. Anything you can imagine, that is not a sinful activity, you'll be able to do, and we'll do it all to the Glory of God.

The reason we're not there right now is man's sin. God intervenes, on occasion, when asked .... but He leaves a lot up to us to decide for ourselves.

Jesus, the Son of God, came to this earth to save us from our sins. He suffered the most brutal death imaginable, being tortured and crucified by the Romans, and then died, being buried in our sins.

Before He rose from the dead, his Apostles had locked themselves in a room, afraid to go out. After His resurrection, they became bold and courageous missionaries, unafraid to preach the Word of God anywhere, to anyone. Jesus's Apostles spread the Word of God throughout the world. Jesus Himself told them that they would follow Him, to a tortuous death, as a result of following Him. All except John were tortured and killed for their work. John was poisoned, but survived ... and then was exiled. They all had such faith that they spread the Word, joyfully, and went to their deaths knowing the reward that awaited them.

This is a fallen world; one ruled by sin. We can escape the eternal consequences of sin through Jesus Christ, but we still live in a sinful world, and are subject to the temporal consequences of sin here. This is what our sin has brought upon us, our children, and all future generations, until the day of Judgement comes. Then this world will be replaced with a perfect world, and those who have accepted Christ will be made as perfect and sin free as Him; as Sons and Daughters of God ... to live in a perfect world. Unfortunately, those who have not accepted Christ will be subject to the eternal consequences of their own sin. That will be a horrible fate, but God is a just God, and those who are in sin will pay the price for their sin, and those who have accepted Christ as their Savior will be saved by the Grace of God, as He was already paid the price for their sin, and for my sin.

Tragedies like this are impossible to understand. Maybe God chose this particular boy for a particular task in his life. Maybe he "just got lucky". We won't know until later in his life, maybe not until this world passes, and perhaps not even then.

I will add that I have prayed for the victims of this senseless, and sinful, attack more times than I can count. I have pleaded with God for His peace to be upon them, and for healing, physical, emotional, and spiritual. I will continue to do so. Sin's consequences take a horrible toll on us, but God can ease the pain and suffering, if we allow Him to do so.

I probably wrote more than I should have, and I have no idea if you will actually read all of this, but if you do, and have any questions, I will certainly do my best to answer them.

From the old thread of the last school shooting...

Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN
And you might be ok with kids going to school in a building that looks like, and is guarded like, a prison.. but I don't.


Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
I only care that the kids come home at the end of the day.


Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN
I care about the mental health of my kids as well.. something you obviously don't really give a crap about since you want to treat them like some combination of suspect and target every day when they go to school. All so you can not only own guns, but own every single type of gun you want, with whatever accessories you want, and buy it from an unlicensed dealer without any kind of checks...

If we end up creating prison type schools, just stop calling this the greatest country on earth.. just stop it.

I'm the only one who ever talked about the psychological effects of turning schools into prisons.