DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum O or D, which is better?

I think you can make a compelling case for each, infusion of talent on both sides.

I’m going offense, we have talent at every position, and that includes QB.

They're both improved, on paper at least. However, I'll go with the 'O' as I'm very excited to see what Haley can do with it (and having a competent QB)...

D .. its real close IMO ...

OL is worst position on team IMO ... our tackles are both very very questionable ...

Not that it matters, hope both are at least good....I go with O for these reasons- Landry only top 100 player- however Gordon, if he'd played full season would/could easily be in top 100- both guards are better than average, and Hyde/Taylor are more than respectable. Same kind of listing for D, but NOT imho as good as O.....GO Browns!!!

Carlos Hyde was in the 90s.

Better? Man... I just hope both are improved.

Our offense, with so many newer parts, is probably less known right now. I'd like to think our D will be improved with healthy additions and newer acquisitions.

Carlos Hyde is the first Cleveland Brown on the NFL Network’s list of the top 100 players. The running back checks in at No. 97 on this year’s edition.

https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2018/04/30/carlos-hyde-makes-nfl-networks-top-100-players-list/

Jarvis Landry was No. 52

http://profootballspot.com/jarvis-landry-ranked-no-52-on-nfls-top-100-list/

It's nice that Punter or Kicker are not likely to be our "best" position group for a change.

who else will be on the list? Josh Gordon?

At this time I would have to side with the D. I know we invested a lot on O and I do think it will be much improved, but from a statistical standpoint, our O was putrid.

On the D side of the ball, I felt the biggest weakness we had was our secondary. And while I'm not convinced our secondary will be a stellar unit, the improvement in the secondary will make every other unit on D be better.

On O, both of our T positions are very questionable. I don't see those same huge question marks on D.

Here's a funny thought. "Mr. Show" with Bob and David, HBO year 1996.

Bob Odenkirk, O
David Cross, D,

O or D which is better?
D, but love O too.

The Browns defense has been better than the Browns offense almost every year, seems so obvious that not much to discuss.

At this time, I'd have to go with the D. They were the better of two dismal units last year and they've been infused with significantly more veteran help, especially the secondary.

The thing about Offense and Defense is the NFL is not set up to let teams win games with their defense... unless the defense is taking turnovers to the house.

Therefore, the best defense's as built to stop offensive production, are still going to look bad because all offenses have some production.

I mean, the NFL isn't meant to play, 3 to nothing, or 6-0 scores.
They are what? "5" percent of games?


I'll agree that, "the very best defense, that can't be blocked and gets the ball into it's hands as soon as the offense snaps it, and overruns offensive players, which aren't experts at tackling, and or intercepts anything for pick 6's"
is the 2nd most powerful force in football.

The 2nd most, emphasis on the 2nd.
But I think the MOST Powerful force in football at the NFL level is the precision passing game.

If the Precision Passing Game is Performed Perfectly, there is nothing in the NFL that can stop it. Period. Except the clock, the game clock.

... 3rd most is an unstoppable running game? and An Unrunable defense?

My point is the offense and defense are not equal oppisites, and if a perfect offense plays a perfect defense the offense should score points.

If 2 teams play with perfect offenses and perfect defenses the game should be what? a 20-20 tie? Maybe 24-24 in 2018.

If you take all 32 NFL teams win or lose the avg. points scored by a team in a given week is what? 20.xxx points, or 23.xxx points, or is it growing?

I think for the first time in a long time, our offense will be better than the defense.

Both units should be improved. I look for the defense to be a bit better the first half of the year with the offense catching up in the last 8 games.

I am going with offense with new OC and Hue stepping aside. Yet to see how we respond to new O yet, but we have some weapons. If we put up points regularly, and not give up the ball and turn it over to screw our D, this might get interesting.

Without question the D is better right now. Its takes O longer to gell and come together, and it's Williams 2nd year. Diam is correct about our biggest weakness OT and it's not close.

You and I agree, I didn't use this year's top 100, but did mention Hyde and he made this year's 100- with Gordon and our guards- who rank as much better than average- who on paper on D ranks man for man as well as talent on O. ASSuming Gordon plays a full year, where do you think he'll rank on a receiver's list/ or on top 100 in 13 Gordon had Hoyer, Campbell, and Wedden throwing to him, Taylor is better than all of them AND he doesn't turn ball over....O is better on paper.....GO Browns!!!! Bleacher Report has our guards at 5 and 12 out of 100- stellar group.

I am actually upset that Hue is not running the offense. When both were OC's at the same time, it was Hue was the hot candidate while Haley was not.

I have a lot of family and friends who are Steeler fans and they are not unhappy at all that Haley is gone.

I truly don't understand why they didn't keep Hue's offense and allow Haley to concentrate on the daily grind of being an OC, which would allow Hue to roam more while not having the team learn a new system and one that I don't think is as innovative.

Having Big Ben, Bell, A. Brown and arguably the best OL in football sure makes an OC look good.

I think that it does make a coach look good having all that talent .....but there is also the daily challenge of wrangling all of those huge egos.

I just hope that he utilizes the run game. I think that was a big failure in Pittsburgh. I do think that he is a creative guy, and his offenses definitely created opportunities for young receivers to flourish.

It will be interesting to see how these their young receivers fare with him gone. I think that Roethlisberger had a huge part in their development over the years ..... but what if it was more Haley than Ben? They took a big risk dumping him, given their offensive production over the past 4 years. It'll be interesting to see how it works out for them.

I also hope that Haley doesn't do as Hue has done, and forget the run game. I think we have the makings of a top third run game, if we just run the ball. If we can run the ball on demand, it will be huge in helping out our QB(s).

Overall, I am glad we got Haley. In many ways, he is like a Gregg Williams, in that he can be a bit ...... abrasi .... err .... motivational. I do like that we have coordinators who can be somewhat demanding and abrasive, and then Hue, who is more of a players' coach, and who might be able to smooth over some hurt feelings.

I totally agree with you.

I would also add one positive with Haley, and that is that he sped up Ben. Time was where Ben would hold the ball, and hold the ball, and hold the ball ...... and Haley got him to get the ball out of his hands quickly, to his playmakers.

Haley sped him up a lot. I think that he helped him learn that timing, and trusting his receivers, are not a bad thing.

Yeah, I read where Haley didn't want Ben to take so many shots and increase the risk of injury. So, the plan was to get rid of the ball quicker. Tyrod holds the ball longer than anyone in the league. It will be interesting to see if that changes.

And I don't dislike Haley. I just think Hue is better. I get that many of our posters ragged on Hue weekly for dumb play calling and other things, but I disagreed w/them.

I would have preferred we keep the same offense just for the sake of continuity. I am not certain how different haley’s offense is but plays and terminology go smoother with repetition.

New QBs, two new RBs, new WR/ Gordon less than half year- no better time to put in new O.....GO Browns!!!! O better than D due to more talent.

I think the O has potential, but we need the OL to really solidify (LT and RT specifically) to read that potential.

Also, I'm hoping Njoku and Coleman show improvement because that would be HUGE

Heard the same from some diehard Steeler fans as well. I want to see what we get out of this stable. Maybe Hue could. may have been a hot candidate, but he needs to get over this fail.

I am a Hue fan. Do not care who wins us games.

I can see where that might be of benefit if we had the same QB.

Think about it, why would you hire a coordinator and want him to learn a new system? I think it is pretty important that the coordinator knows the system inside and out, you know, for continuity's sake.

Without going back more than 3 pages to find a defensive thread, I decided to put this article here... please move Refs if needed...


Denzel Ward hopes to follow buddy Marshon Lattimore's blueprint
8:25 AM ET
Pat McManamonMike Triplett

To say that Marshon Lattimore and Denzel Ward have a unique relationship might be a bit of an understatement.

"That’s my son right there," Lattimore said recently. "That’s my boy."

No paternity tests needed, mind you. Lattimore is 22, Ward is 21. The two simply have a bond that goes back to The Ohio State University, where Ward, Lattimore and Gareon Conley formed a cornerback hydra that resulted in all being taken in the first round of the NFL draft -- Lattimore by New Orleans and Conley by the Raiders a year ago, Ward fourth overall by the Browns in April.

That the Buckeyes had three first-round picks in the same backfield speaks to each player’s ability, but also the system the Buckeyes use defensively. Ohio State is one of the few programs in the country that ask their corners to play press-man coverage, a skill that is required in the NFL.

"(Secondary) coach (Kerry) Coombs told me when he recruited me, he wanted to coach first-round draft picks and win championships," Ward said. "That sold me right there."

With this group, competition bred friendship.


Denzel Ward, the fourth pick of the draft, figures to be a starter from Day 1 for the Browns. Ken Blaze/USA TODAY Sports
"We were with each other every day," Lattimore said. "Same position. Like me, Gareon, Denzel and Damon Arnette. And we were in battle together. So when you’re battling with somebody, you’re gonna get close to them no matter what. So just me being with him, and me looking at him like my little brother, it just became natural."

The Browns made Ward a semi-surprising fourth overall pick in the hopes he can do for Cleveland what his friend and mentor did for the Saints. Lattimore’s impact on New Orleans after being taken 11th overall was significant.

With Lattimore starting as a rookie, New Orleans improved in every pass defense category, from 4,380 passing yards given up in 2016 to 3,597 in 2017, from 27 touchdown passes to 22, from nine interceptions to 20.

According to ProFootballFocus.com, Lattimore was the fourth-ranked corner in the league and the 29th-best player. He allowed opposing quarterbacks a 45.3 passer rating when throwing his way, best among all rookies.

Lattimore wound up in the Pro Bowl and the winner of the NFL Defensive Rookie of the Year Award. Last week, he talked about becoming "a legend."

It may be oversimplifying to say one player made that much of a difference, but when it comes to a cover corner, the impact can be significant. Think Richard Sherman at his best with Seattle. Think the impact of Jalen Ramsey, who ranked third in the NFL at his postion and was a key reason Jacksonville made the AFC Championship Game. The cover corner not only takes away the opposing team's best player, he frees defensive coordinators to provide extra help elsewhere.

In a seven-game stretch early in the season with Lattimore playing and learning, the Saints gave up 149.2 yards passing per game. Lattimore missed the next two games, and the Saints gave up more than 300 yards passing in both games.

This would seem to be a clear cause and effect.

And it's one of the reasons the Browns went with Ward at the fourth spot instead of pass-rusher Bradley Chubb. The Browns feel they have two talented pass-rushers in Myles Garrett and Emmanuel Ogbah; they do not have a cover corner like Ward.


Marshon Lattimore made an immediate impact as a rookie with the Saints last season. Chuck Cook/USA TODAY Sports
"I like the ability of him being able to play in this defense where we need shutdown corners because (defensive coordinator) Gregg (Williams) really wants more shutdown corners," general manager John Dorsey said on draft night. "(Ward) has the speed. He has the athleticism. He has the quickness. He has the ball skills."

"Man, he’s just fast," Lattimore said. "Fast, quick and can jump. So he has all the tools that you need -- he’s just 5-10. But other than that, he’s tough. You’ve seen he can tackle. Come up and hit you. He can jump, he can mirror any receiver. He’s special."

For Lattimore to say Ward is fast says something, because Lattimore ran a 4.36. 40-yard dash at the combine.

"No, he ain’t faster (than me)," Lattimore quipped before coming clean. "Yeah, he’s faster; I ain’t gonna lie. He ran, what was it, 4.31?"

Actually a 4.32.

"If we raced though, it’d be a different story," Lattimore said.

Last season the Browns' lack of speed at corner was noticeable. That forced Williams to play far more zone than he likes. The 28 touchdown passes the team gave up ranked tied for sixth highest in the league.

In 2016 at Ohio State, Lattimore and Conley were starting, but the Buckeyes played so many spread offenses they started using more nickel and midway through the season Ward and Lattimore would start outside with Conley moving inside.

"You could tell from his first year to his second year how much better he got," Lattimore said.

When the Buckeyes played more traditional coverages, Conley and Lattimore would start.

"We all were very confident in the way we played, and we weren’t selfish," Ward said. "We had a three-man rotation the whole time we were there. I feel most guys could be selfish and not appreciate that, but I think we all appreciated it. We knew we were all good and able to play."

The Browns believed Ward was the best press-man corner in the draft, and the second best wasn't that close. Though Ward admits Lattimore is thicker, he is physically very comparable to Lattimore, who is 6-foot and 192 pounds. Ward is 5-11 and 190.

Ward will be penciled in immediately as a starter. He’s already started to show his skills in the OTA practices open to the media. Last week he faced Josh Gordon in a goal-line drill and went high to challenge a throw to Gordon -- much to the delight of his teammates.

If things go according to plan, Ward will be assigned the other team's best receiver. The Browns' schedule means that Ward will twice face Antonio Brown (Pittsburgh) and A.J. Green (Cincinnati), and also will be lined up opposite Julio Jones (Atlanta), Michael Thomas (New Orleans), Deandre Hopkins (Houston), Keenan Allen (Chargers) and Mike Evans (Tampa Bay). That is nine games against receivers that Pro Football Focus ranked in the top 15 in the league in 2017.

"It is the NFL," Ward said. "The talent is going to be there. You just have to come ready to play."

"I have that faith in him," Lattimore said. "One hundred percent."


http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post/...mores-blueprint

I would have to go with our Defense. Even last year, I thought was had one of the better front 7's in the league. But they had to deal with an inept offense that would put them right back on the field and a secondary that would do them no favors in pass coverage. Then they had to deal with a lot of injuries later on in the year. Now that we have a completely revamped secondary, that includes a top 5 pick, I think the defense has a chance to really shine.

Ward is the one pick in this year's draft that I liked.

Would you have preferred him over Bradley Chubb and Minkah?

Yes to Chubb. I liked Fitz better, but figured we would not draft him after trading for Randall.

Gotcha, I didn't realize how committed we were to Randall till after the draft. That was emphasized when we picked up the fifth year option. Once the option came through, it was clear we were very committed to the guy.

Fifth year options aren't cheap.

So we must have either thought we got a steal or we valued Deshone a decent bit.



Minkah dropped a lot further than i thought he would. But I was very surprised we didn't select Bradley Chubb. I figured that was an easy call

Agreed, I think the Coordinator should run his own system.

Yup. The HC should hire a coordinator that he agrees with philosophically, but then the coordinator should be left to run things on his own.... that's the whole reason you have coordinators, to share the workload so that the HC doesn't have to get bogged down in the details.

Agreed. I understand that Haley's play call "terminology" is less complex than Hue's, and with a veteran QB I expect much less need to call timeouts before the play clock expires...