DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Browns are Legit Wild Card Sleepers

There are no atheists in foxholes, blowing the lid off expectation,

9-7

10-6

Just because .... and why not?

Agree, 1000%- Vegas number is 5.5, for a team that won O last year, looking at schedule before a down has been played, we are underdogs in every game- odds lowest PROBABLY on Jets and Bucs games- we will be 7 pt or more underdogs in every other game- IMHO, thus....realistically I say 500% improvement is HOPEFUL....GO Browns....sorry I'm really from Missouri after ALL OUR SUFFERING!!!

J/C ...... 500% on 0 is 0.

I am not saying anything about you, but I hate the excuses players, teams, and fans make about how hard their schedule is/was. I rarely, if ever, hear the Pats, Steelers. Saints, and so many teams who play well every year, complaining about their schedules.

Heck, as a last place team, we get the last place teams from the previous year in a couple of games, as well.

I look at our schedule, and we should be very competitive, or win, a number of games.

If we want to get to being a good team, we have to get to at least .500 in the division. In the division, we have the Ravens, (9-7) and Bengals. (7-9)

We need 3 wins here.

If we don't get there, everyone is probably fired at the end of the season.

We play the Jets, (5-11) Raiders, (6-10) Bucs, (5-11) Texans, (4-12) Denver, (5-11)

Sure these teams had injuries, or other issues, but they were beatable last year. We also improved in this off-season. There will be injuries in the NFL, and who is to say that teams we play might not suffer some difficult injuries.

This team needs to get past the excuses, and just start winning. It sounds dumb, but teams don't start winning until they start winning. I think that a team has to believe it can win before it actually starts winning. I think that's why we brought in a bunch of players from different teams as free agents. We also added players who won in college. Ward, Mayfield, and Chubb are all from big time winning programs.

As far as veterans, Taylor helped take a team that was so-so, to the playoffs.

Carlos Hyde saw a team that struggled early rip off a nice winning streak to end the season.

Demarious Randle has seen winning in Green Bay. They lost Rodgers to injury last year, but he has seen a lot of winning.

Jarvis Landry is one of the best players in the NFL. His team was 10-6 in 2016, before losing their QB last year.

Chris Hubbard played well for the Steelers, a winning team, last year.

I look at our defense, and we added some pieces to a talented group. (at least the front 7)

The secondary was a weakness, and it's been addressed in a huge way. Randle, Ward, Gaines, Carrie, and Mitchell are all upgrades. Some are huge upgrades.

Man, this team just has to start winning. I think that's a huge danger in the "tear down and rebuild" deal. You wind up losing, and your young players wind up getting used to losing. This is not what you want your young players getting used to.

Look at how many players leave the Browns and wind up helping good teams. They were good players, but they were stuck in a bad situation. I think that we added a bunch of good players this off-season, and some guys with an edge that I think this team has needed.

It's time to start winning. Are they a few teams we'll stand little chance against? Sure, However, we beat the Pats and Saints a few years ago, when we had "no chance".

Speaking of the Pats, I remember back in the 2001 season ... when they signed a bunch of "guys". I remember their fans going nuts over the horrible players they signed. Well, they signed guys who fit. I think that's what we did this year; brought in guys who fit.

It's time to stop making excuses, and start winning. I am not saying that we are definitely Super Bowl bound ..... but we darn sure should be competing for .500 or better.

JMHO, Vegas doesn't give money away often- mentioning JC ain't cool, like many of our fans with all the regimes and do overs- a sensible fan should be from Missouri- don't talk/write about it, show me the W's- legit wild card sleepers- give me a break....GO Browns!!!

i have a tough time seeing the 6 wins, let alone playoff berth.

BUT, if we do make the playoffs in 2018 ... that gives us a problem with Tyrod/Baker for 2019

I HOPE we have the same problem Seattle did with Matt Flynn and his 19 Million 3 year contract..

or Brees / Rivers

To me it's all about how Tyrod does with the best weapons he has ever had to work with in his career. Is he going to get more aggressive and take a few more chances or is he going to be too conservative and let those weapons go to waste? The way of Tyrod is the way of the Browns this season.

We should have won games last year.

Hue is still around but we have a new OC. Hue was like Roy McAvoy in Tin Cup trying to make it over the water with his insisting Kiser chuck it all day long. Unlike McAvoy, he never made it over the water, costing us wins.




He is the head coach, but I hope both Haley and Williams do their thing, giving Hue respect, but not listening to him all that much. Either one of them is more qualified to be the head coach.

Hue gets the record. We need 7 wins. If we lose 10, we can't keep that guy

Tyrod has used these ota's wisely, he has already mastered checking it down on virtually every single pass.

Baker apparently is fantastic as long as his first option is open. Once he is forced to target #2 its clinch those cheeks time.

I don't see it as a problem, whatsoever. If we make the playoffs because of Tyrod, he deserves to start in 2019 and Mayfield can be the backup in his second year. If Mayfield is the reason why we make the playoffs, Tyrod is cut.

Just because Mayfield is the #1 pick shouldn't force a change, especially if the team is productive. Delaying when Mayfield starts doesn't seem to be a big deal to me.

J/c ... not sure anyone’s getting this one right ...

EVERYTHING HINGES on what Baker is showing ... short of Taylor crapping the bed Baker will have more to say about how long Tyrod starts than Tyrod does ... i can hear it now .. what a moron diam .. your being an ass again ... *L* ... well heres why IMO ...

If Baker comes in and picks things up like Watson did last year or Dak and Wentz did two years ago ... HE’S GONNA START real real soon and it matters not what TT does ... if Baker can do the things we drafted him to do he can simply do things TT can’t and will give us a much better chance to win games than TT would....

What Wentz, Dak and Watson have done is a FLUKE for first year QB’s ... A FLUKE ... but u know what ... 3 flukes in the last two drafts just might be the start of a trend of rookie QB’s progressing at a really rapid rate ...

Not sure what type of O’s Wentz and Dak came from ... i know Watson came from an O that had him making reads and doing some pro style concepts ... that could hinder Baker cause of the BS O they run and the fact that division has no defenses that make u go to the 2nd read ... *L* ...

If what Mour says is true ... that he’s struggling with anything after read #1 ... that needs fixing if he’s going to turn out to be like one of the “fluke” three ...

This is all about Baker and what he can handle and how SOON HE CAN HANDLE IT ...

His job is harder than most cause we HAVE TO WIN NOW ... and TT is a competent vet QB that is not going to turn the ball over and we have A TON OF TALENT AROUND HIM ...

IMO guys ... this is all about what BAKER CAN HANDLE AND HOW QUICKLY ... only way that changes is if TT craps the bed or becomes WAY BETTER than he ever has before ... i dont see either of those happening ... my guess is TT stays who he is ...

Just asking, not provoking.

Like your sig, Always did. Keeping it this year?

I don't know if it's such a "fluke" anymore.

In addition to the three guys you mentioned [Wentz, Dak, and Watson] others have performed fairly well early. Guys like Carr, Teddy, Luck, Wilson, Cam, RGIII, etc

I agree.

TT is going to be the starter, but nobody has said he is going to be the starter all year or a set number of games.

At some point Hue, Haley, and whoever is the QB coach will come to the conclusion that Baker is ready. Hue is the head coach. He decides who is going to play. In this case Dorsey may want to have some input, but for the most part Hue and his offensive staff will make that call.

After Hue's first two seasons, he isn't going to be very eager to go with Baker if TT is getting it done and we are winning games. Hue has to feel the pressure on that front.

If we aren't getting it done with TT, my hope is we don't go with Baker to soon.

I think it will work out. Hue is now void of the play calling and the large part of the game planning. He now can focus on being the head coach. Set the basis of the game plan with his coordinators. Each staff will come up with the game plan and then Hue pulls it all together on game day.

I agree with most of what you are saying about TT and Baker. I think the "fluke" thing has merit, however, none of those guys took over (as rookies) a team as god-awful as we were last year.

We have a ton of new players on O - again - although THIS time with productive vets at QB, RB & WR. I think that Baker's progression to starter includes an assessment of how the rest of the O gets up-to-speed almost as much as how Baker himself gets up-to-speed. TT will likely be able to handle the uncertainty better than Baker.

Hue is the head coach. Just because he has an OC does not mean he is not heavily involved in game planning. In contrast, he will be very much involved in game planning to a large degree each week.

To make a statement like that is saying no HC who has an OC and a DC is much involved in game planning. To the contrary, head coaches, for the most part, were hired as such because they have a history of excelling on one side of the ball or the other. Why take a mind like that out of the mix, for the large part, simply because he has, in this case, an OC as an assistant?

All game plans go through the HC for his involvement, adjustments and ultimate approval. To not take advantage of his superior experience, the reason he was hired, would be a detriment to the team.

You quoted what you wanted to quote and not the entire though.

If you had you would realize you are pretty much saying what I said.

That wasn't a rip on Hue. You can read my comment again if you wish. I am not going to try and explain it to you.

Here's the rub........If the Browns are successful this year, posters like Memphis, Vambo, peen, rasta, WSU, 32, device, etc will say that the coordinators did all the good work and Hue was just a figurehead.

On the other hand, if the team sucks, those same posters will place all the blame on Hue.

I quoted the part that I disagreed with which was dealing with Hue's role in game planning. The beginning part which dealt with the QBs and who decides who will play and when I agree with.

Here's another rub: Who cares about the opinions of those with an agenda against Hue? If they understood how things work they wouldn't hold such opinions.

Let it go. Your obsession with what other people post/think is unhealthy. Now you are projecting thoughts for the future onto others...which reads very agenda-ish.

Just post what you think and let the words speak for themselves. Every time you blurt out comments that are more focused on other people than on your point, you look rather petty.

It is possible to be disappointed - or even disgusted - by/with a 1-31 head coach without there being an agenda.

The Hue/Sashi battle died off a long time ago and stayed that way until Vers started bringing it back to life. If there is agenda-posting going on, it's obvious who is doing it.

Nah, I doubt it. If we're successful this year, it'll be because we have a competent QB who is leading us to victories alongside the other talent we have on this roster. So, I'll commend the QB and then give Dorsey credit for bringing that QB to town, whether it's Tyrod or Baker starting.

ddubia talking to Vers about agendas! Thanks for the morning laugh.

Not I ... not even a teeny weeny tiny little bit ... let them wallow in their own little Pit of Misery ... i *L* at it ...

If they don’t understand this is an entirely different team with Hue having taken an awful lot off his plate making his job must different than it was the last two years ... thats their problem ...

CLEAN SLATE BABY ... GO GET UM HUE!!!!!

I hope you don't actually believe the posters referenced in the above are like that. I mean, just because someone is butt hurt about whatever at the current moment doesn't make any of it remotely true. It's just another attempt at trying to group posters into a singular position on a opinion, which is ridiclously stupid and childish. By all means, I'm fine with one person's opinion being questioned, but this group stuff is garbage.

I'd venture to say that none of those people referenced are in accord on several Browns' issues. Grouping people and then labeling their opinion as one, without knowing it entirely is the epitomy of an agenda. Only to be seconded by someone replying to it in the manner ddubia did...the guy that had to apologize for saying something about a poster's thoughts on Hue that were incorrect.

Summed up: Hue is the strategist while the co-ordinators are the tacticians...

They're denying it, but they have already said such things. I think a lot of people recognize their agenda.

My 2 cents is... the Browns have a much better talent level than they've ever had. If the wins don't come this year it's on Hue. I know Hue looks forward to the new Browns roster and talent level and knows this needs to be a breakout year for the Browns or he'll be gone.

To me it's not weather I like Hue or not it's just time to win. If Hue can't get this group up to speed this year IMO he deserves the brunt of the blame.

You've just been added to the group.

I love your optimism man. I feel very much the same way.

I think the addition of Todd Haley to the Coaching Staff as O-Coordinator is huge. Hue just looked overwhelmed last season. Doing two jobs poorly (Head Coach and O-Coordinator) did us no service.

Now, we have a legit O-Coordinator. One that's very proven and experienced (and doesn't need to be led along) is a major edition. One guy, solving the issue of two jobs, as Hue can now take on the role of Head Coach and successfully encompass a wider managerial role.

Landry, Taylor, Hyde, Ward, Gaines, Carrie. They're all big additions. Same with Josh Gordon (who hasn't failed a drug test yet ::Just knocked on wood::). But Bringing in Todd Haley is major. I'm not a huge fan of Gregg Williams, but I loved that he was experienced and has run successful defenses in the past. Haley, I like more than Williams. He'll hold these players on offense accountable and he knows what our offense needs to look like to be prepared week in and week out.

I'm with the optimism. I'm hoping for 6 wins, because I always shoot too high and end up disappointed. But I think 6 wins is very realistic. And it should be a fun season

DOnt get me wrong, I like Hue. But I do question if he is one of those guys who is a very good coord but not the type to be a good HC. I do think he is well likes and respected, so from that aspect I think he is good, but his game management needs to improve drastically. I am hoping letting the OC call plays will help with that ,

You don't know me or views because you don't take the time to read them. You're always assuming things about me when you have no clue. It's kinda old, disappointing, and very mundane.

I've said it before that you actually have some very insightful awesome posts. I wish you'd keep up with those rather than degrade and belittle fellow posters...THIS is what makes this board unreadable at times.


I don't hate Hue and never have. I do see issues with 1-31 unlike some, apparently. I wouldn't be nearly upset with Hue if we had been 4-28. We weren't 1-31 because of the lack of talent. Hue made a lot of poor decisions. Maybe he's learned from them and that's fine and great. But unless he gets better, he's not the one who is going to lead the Browns to the Super Bowl. As Hue stands today, after 3 years as a HC, he still makes mistakes he shouldn't. I just don't think he has "IT." And I haven't forgotten that if Hue leads us to a Super Bowl, I have to provide you with a super bowl ticket. Unlike you, I make good on my word.

Care to explain this one? It's funny, you just lectured someone on how comments like these make the board unreadable. lol

Tit for tat, I guess. I'm sorry. And I don't mind the occasional back and forth, but some of this is incessant and it's all due to one poster.

And all he had to do was issue an apology, not buy a super bowl ticket. I don't recall the thread, but we argued and he said if I was right he'd apologize. It was proven that I was right but he never apologized. I said I didn't mind at the time, but I must have lied because I still remember.

2018 NFL Over-Under Win Totals: Browns poised to be an AFC wild-card contender - CBSSports.com
https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/2018-...nder-next-year/

There's no sugarcoating 2017 for the Browns: it was an egg. A literal one, too, with a goose egg popping up in the loss column thanks to the Browns failure to win a single game all year long. The most impressive part about the whole thing was Hue Jackson, who has never won a game for the Browns on a Sunday, managed to keep his job after going a combined 1-31 in two seasons with Cleveland.

Make no mistake, though: this is John Dorsey's team now and his fingerprints are all over the place. Starting with the quarterback room, which will look very different from last year. There is finally a veteran in place (Tyrod Taylor, acquired via trade this offseason) to give the roster a higher floor. Baker Mayfield, taken No. 1 overall, will be his primary competition and it could get pretty heated this offseason. Don't be surprised if Baker starts early.

Dorsey shored up other areas too, acquiring wide receiver Jarvis Landry, a target hog who had a low yards per catch with the Dolphins, in a trade and signing him to a long-term extension. Add Antonio Callaway from the draft with Josh Gordon, David Njoku, Corey Coleman (who might be on thin ice) and Duke Johnson (future TBD as well) and you have some pretty nice pieces in the passing game. Carlos Hyde is a feature back signed in free agency, but he might not be long for Cleveland either, with Nick Chubb coming off the board at the top of the second round. The only real concern here is filling the void left by the retirement of Joe Thomas. Otherwise the Browns offense looks kind of ... good?

The defense is young and dangerous as well: Myles Garrett, Emmanuel Ogbah and Carl Nassib give them a pass rushing presence. Don't sleep on Larry Ogunjobi in the middle. Denzel Ward at No. 4 overall gives them more talent in the back end along with Jabrill Peppers; Damorious Randall could be a sneaky trade addition as well. This defense looks kind of ... good?

It's just hard to fathom the Browns being actually a quality football team. Vegas isn't in on them yet, setting their over/under for wins in 2018 at 5.5.

What does it say about the NFL that a team can go 0-16 and still end up with a tough schedule the next year? The Browns open with the Steelers at home in Week 1, play at the Saints in Week 2, get the Jets in Week 3 as a brief respite, then play at the Raiders in Week 4. There's a chance for 2-2 there, but 0-4 is on the table too. They need to win a couple because after that it gets really hard: Ravens (home), Chargers (home), Buccaneers (road), Steelers (road), Chiefs (home) and Falcons (home). That's an 0-6 stretch begging to happen, with four of those games at home. At least they have a Week 11 bye after Atlanta!

Unfortunately four of their games post bye are away from Cleveland, including the first two against the Bengals and Texans. The Browns then close with the Panthers (home), Broncos (road), Bengals (home) and Ravens (road). That's just a really tough schedule.

Why They'll Go Over

It's a low bar to hit and as we saw with the Jets last year. Talented, young teams can often times make big strides, shatter expectations and still fall woefully short of hitting their number. The Browns winning five games would be a significant improvement, with them winning five times as many games as the last two years combined, and it would still go under. But there's reason for believing they can get this number, starting with the quarterback position. Cleveland ultimately opted to go with Baker Mayfield with the first overall pick, which gives them a duo of Tyrod Taylor and Mayfield to compete for the Week 1 job. That's a combo that can win football games right now (versus DeShone Kizer and Josh Allen). Particularly when you consider the weapons around them: with Hyde, Chubb and Duke out of the backfield, the running game should be good if the offensive line can overcome the loss of Thomas. The receiving weapons aren't perfect, but there is plenty of upside in Gordon, Landry, Njoku, Coleman and Callaway. It feels very boom or bust, but if Gordon plays the way he did last year over 16 games, Landry eats up yardage underneath and Njoku develops into the seam-buster we saw flashes of last year, the Browns could end up being a league average offense. Don't sleep on the addition of Todd Haley as offensive coordinator to keep Hue Jackson's mitts off the daily gameplan and to make life easier for whatever quarterback plays. A full season of Taylor probably gives the Browns the best chance to hit six wins, even if it might cap their ceiling a bit. Defensively there are viable questions about Gregg Williams' schematic execution but the Browns finished in the top half of the league in defensive DVOA last year and got better by adding Ward with the No. 4 pick. A full season of Myles Garrett would probably result in a Pro Bowl -- Garrett had seven sacks last year in just 11 games. Emmanuel Ogbah deserves more credit than he got during the "why didn't they take Bradley Chubb" pre- and post-draft talk. Strides from this defense and an average offensive performance could result in a second-place division finish.

Why They'll Go Under

Because they're the Browns. Getting excited about Cleveland football is a May tradition unlike no other; we completely missed the Browns as the obvious worst team in football for the second year in a row last year. It was right there for the taking too, with a rookie quarterback and Jackson not bringing in an offensive coordinator. If Taylor gets off to a slow start and is benched for Mayfield (or just loses out to the rookie, which is entirely possible), it's easy to imagine a situation where Haley and Hue start fighting about deployment of the rookie. Picture a Week 6 "I'm taking back the offense" gambit by Hue, designed to save his job with the Browns stumbling to a couple of bad losses. Jackson has not been a good coach in the last two years and has made several critical errors that cost his team wins. If the young defense doesn't take a step forward (also conceivable) and the offense stumbles, this can easily be a five win team. Leaping from zero wins to six wins is a massive step in the NFL and it might be one the Browns aren't ready to make.

The Pick

I'm gonna regret it, I'm sure, but picking the Browns to surprise in 2018 is just too easy. They've done a good job building a nice floor with this roster. It's really hard to imagine them going completely winless with Taylor under center and an improved defense, not to mention his weapons. They probably aren't a 10-win team yet, but the changes made by Dorsey this offseason give them a shot at .500 and a chance to compete for a low-end wild card and/or second place in the division. Give me all of your Browns shares, but maybe stage an intervention if I try to do something like make them a best bet.

VERDICT: OVER

There you go again. Bashing Hue and the poster who disagrees w/you.

I see this type of statement every year. Where you place one year affects 2 of your games the following the year. Two. That's not much.