Playoffs? We're talking playoffs?!


http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/23453136/cleveland-browns-nfl-playoff-wild-card-sleepers-2018


The Browns are legit wild-card sleepers

This might be hard for anyone born after 1960 to believe, but the Cleveland Browns used to be good.

In fact, they once were a powerhouse. Their dominance between their inaugural season in 1946 and 1955 makes Bill Belichick's New England Patriots look less like a dynasty and more like a -- cue the air quotes -- "dynasty." Cleveland won 10 consecutive division titles and made the championship game every year over that stretch. The Browns won seven championships and added one more in 1964, trailing only the Green Bay Packers (13) and Chicago Bears (9) on the all-time list.

Needless to say, they haven't been quite as good since. Cleveland had its first-ever winless season last year, hasn't been to the playoffs since 2002 and has failed to eclipse five wins in 10 of the past 12 seasons.

Of course, all teams start the season at 0-0. And it was quite the offseason for Cleveland. The Browns were busy making trades, signing impact players and, thanks to former general manager Sashi Brown, scooping up top-end prospects in the draft.

As the Oakland Raiders and Jacksonville Jaguars showed us in 2016 and 2017, a franchise's fortunes can change in an instant. The 2018 Browns won't remind you of Paul Brown's dominant squads of 70 years ago, but this is a team primed for a big step forward and, with a few breaks, very well could shock the world and snag eight or nine wins and a wild-card berth.

The new guy under center
It all starts at quarterback. Tyrod Taylor is far from a superstar, but he's a solid presence, which is more than can be said about Cleveland's recent quarterback situation. He has shortcomings as a passer, but does two things extremely well: avoids turnovers and makes plays with his legs.

The first is perhaps the most important and certainly the most-overlooked improvement for Cleveland in 2018. Turnovers matter. A lot.


Correlation Between Wins And Turnover Margin
WINS INSTANCES TO MARGIN
0 2 -18.5
1 2 -12.5
2 12 -9.4
3 10 -9.9
4 25 -8.0
5 22 -6.7
6 28 -2.6
7 36 -2.4
8 39 -2.8
9 35 +2.7
10 33 +4.8
11 30 +6.0
12 24 +8.6
13 17 +9.4
14 3 +14.0
15 2 +23.0
Data from the last 10 years


A look back at the past decade shows a strong correlation between turnover margin and wins. The 46 teams that have won 12-plus games in a single season during that span averaged a plus-9.8 turnover margin, and only four of the 46 had a negative margin. On the flip side, the average margin of the 26 teams that have won fewer than four games over the past decade is negative-10.5 and only one team had a positive margin. For my fellow stat nerds, the r-squared between turnover margin and wins is 0.43 over that span. For non-stat nerds, that essentially means 43 percent of a team's win total can be determined by its turnover ratio. That's a huge number.

So why is this important? Cleveland fans know turnovers have been a problem for some time, but that was especially the case in 2017. The Browns' 41 turnovers were seven more than any other team. They led the NFL with 28 interceptions, which translated to a negative-28 turnover margin that was significantly worse than the next-closest team (Denver minus-17). The Browns have had one of the league's five worst turnover margins each of the past three seasons. Comparatively, Taylor's Buffalo Bills ranked no worse than seventh in turnover ratio and were bottom six in interceptions each of his three seasons. And yes, that includes last year's infamous "Nate Peterman game" in Los Angeles.

DeShone Kizer handled a majority of Cleveland's quarterback snaps as a rookie last season, and to say he struggled would be a massive understatement. He was picked off 22 times (six more than any other quarterback) and was off-target on 23 percent of his throws (second worst).

Enter Taylor.

The 28-year-old former Virginia Tech star racked up 65 touchdowns while throwing only 16 interceptions in his three-year stint in Buffalo. His 1.0 percent interception rate was best in the NFL last season, and his 1.3 percent rate over the past three trails only some guy named Tom Brady for best in the league. There are reasons why teams short on roster talent can sneak into a playoff spot (like the 2017 Taylor-led Bills and recently Alex Smith-led Chiefs). And limiting turnovers is the primary one.


Taylor also is exceptional at making plays with his legs. A terrific athlete, Taylor has racked up at least 400 rushing yards and four scores in each of the past three seasons and is averaging a healthy 5.6 yards per carry over that span. He ranks second to only Cam Newton at the position in carries, rushing yardage and rushing touchdowns over the past three years.

Taylor rarely lights up defenses through the air and occasionally struggles with accuracy, but trailing only Brady in interceptions and being second only to Newton in rushing prowess is pretty darn good.

Taylor is expected to be under center for most of 2018, but if first overall pick Baker Mayfield proves to be so good that he snags the job, that's just more good news for Cleveland's chances. If the offense is in solid shape with Taylor, that would launch the unit even further.

That new guy under center has help
Taylor spent the first five years of his career as Joe Flacco's backup in Baltimore and the past three as the starter in Buffalo. And yet, he'll easily enjoy the best supporting cast of his career in Cleveland. Seriously.

It starts with the offensive line. The elephant in the room is the retirement of superstar left tackle Joe Thomas, which leaves the team a bit shaky with 2016 third-round pick Shon Coleman in Thomas' place. That's easily the weakest spot on the line. Right tackle Chris Hubbard was signed away from division rival Pittsburgh and is a solid presence opposite Coleman. Cleveland has invested a lot in the interior line and Joel Bitonio, JC Tretter and Kevin Zeitler are about as good as you'll find. Overall, Cleveland has a top-10 line.

The offensive skill players are also better than we've seen in Cleveland in a long time. Josh Gordon has had his share of off-field issues, but the super-talented, 6-foot-3, 225-pound split end is still only 27 years old and has elite upside. Cleveland traded for slot man Jarvis Landry, who ranks third in the NFL with 400 receptions since entering the league in 2014. Corey Coleman has struggled as the team's No. 1 receiver, but the 2016 first-round pick is still only 23 years old.


Tight end can't be viewed as a team strength yet, but it might soon. David Njoku was one of the team's three first-round picks in 2017 and the former Miami Hurricane has massive upside. He's a physical freak at 6-foot-4 and 246 pounds, and doesn't turn 22 years old until July.

Free-agent acquisition Carlos Hyde and second-rounder Nick Chubb form an outstanding three-man committee with receiving specialist Duke Johnson Jr. Hyde is coming off a high-volume, low-efficiency season in San Francisco, but has been one of the NFL's most effective backs since entering the league in 2014. Chubb was one of the best pure rushers in a deep draft class and is a big, tough back at 5-foot-11 and 227 pounds. Johnson is an elite receiving back, ranking first at the position in receptions (188) and receiving yards (1,741) since being drafted in the third round of 2015.

This is already an above-average offense on paper. It could be even better than expected if Coleman and Njoku take a step forward.

The defense has some pieces
As you might imagine, last year's troubles with interceptions had ill effects on the defense. Cleveland showed up near average or slightly below in most advanced defensive categories, but surrendered 410 points (second most). A major reason for this was an opponent average starting field position of 69.9 yards (the league's fourth-lowest mark). Cleveland otherwise allowed an average drive distance of 28.5 yards (15th in the league), surrendered 328.1 yards per game (14th), allowed 3.4 yards per carry (second), forced 14 fumbles (12th) and paced the NFL with 120 tackles for loss.

That's a good start, and some offseason improvements suggest this unit will be even better in 2018.

Those improvements start in the secondary. The Browns struggled against the pass last year, allowing 7.4 yards per attempt while managing only seven interceptions (second fewest). They raised eyebrows when they traded top corner Jason McCourty to New England, but more than compensated for his departure by signing E.J. Gaines and TJ Carrie and then drafting Ohio State's Denzel Ward fourth overall. Gaines and Carrie enjoyed breakout campaigns with Buffalo and Oakland, respectively, in 2017. And Ward has elite upside as a shutdown perimeter corner. Briean Boddy-Calhoun was a gem undrafted free-agent find in 2016 and was one of the league's best slot corners last year. Safety is a big question mark but there's a ton of upside with 2017 first-rounder Jabrill Peppers and 2015 first-rounder and converted corner Damarious Randall. They're the projected starters, and 2017 starting strong safety Derrick Kindred is also in the fold.


The Browns' best defensive player is defensive end Myles Garrett. Injuries limited the 2017 first overall pick to 11 games as a rookie, but he was busy and prolific when active, playing 77 percent of the snaps during his final nine games. He finished with 7.0 sacks. Garrett has "breakout" written all over him, and recent early-round picks Emmanuel Ogbah, Chad Thomas, Carl Nassib and Nate Orchard add solid, young depth with upside.

There's a lot to like at linebacker, too. Christian Kirksey, Joe Schobert and Jamie Collins were every-down players when healthy last year. That wasn't often the case for Collins, who was limited to 310 snaps. Collins has struggled with health and ineffectiveness since joining the team during the 2016 season, but the 28-year-old is one of the NFL's highest-paid players for a reason: He was one of the league's best at the position in recent years. Schobert and Kirksey have settled in as solid players, leaving Cleveland with quality talent and depth at the position.

Defensive tackle could be a weak spot, especially after trading Danny Shelton to New England. However, the Browns felt they had a logjam after spending a pair of 2017 draft picks on Larry Ogunjobi and Caleb Brantley. Both were key to the team's success against the run last season.

There are a few question marks, but most of the unknowns are young, early-round players with significant upside. There's breakout potential from an improved unit that already showed some signs of life in 2017.

The AFC is weak
It's fairly easy to make a case that five of the league's six best teams are in the NFC with Philadelphia, the Rams, Minnesota, New Orleans and Atlanta. Add in the consistent wild-card contenders, then the improved, emerging teams and suddenly the NFC looks intimidating.

Meanwhile, the AFC is lacking clear-cut, playoff locks behind New England and Pittsburgh. The Chargers are pretty stacked and the AFC South is much improved, but scan through the wild-card favorites and you'll notice that Cleveland's primary competition will be Kansas City, Baltimore and whoever comes up short of the divisional title in the South. Yes, there are some decent/good teams, but it's not nearly as competitive as the NFC. A much-improved Cleveland roster should be able to hang with these teams.

To the Browns' detriment, their schedule isn't as light as you'd hope for a team that just went 0-16. The AFC North will match up with the AFC West and NFC South, and the latter is likely to be a significant roadblock to a wild card. The Falcons, Saints and Panthers made the playoffs last year and all three figure to be in the mix in 2018. Tampa Bay is also much improved following a good offseason. In other words, Cleveland might need to win the division in order to make the playoffs, which will be a tall task with Ben Roethlisberger still around. Cleveland does, however, have the ammunition to overtake Baltimore and Cincinnati -- two solid defensive teams that continue to struggle with either poor or mediocre offensive play. It's easy to make a case that Cleveland is currently better than both on paper.

The 1-31 elephant in the room
Though recent history has shown roster talent will often win out, there's a potential obstacle standing between the Browns and success in 2018: coaching.

Is it possible 2016-17 was a fluke and Hue Jackson is a good (or even great) head coach? Absolutely. Remember, he was a highly-coveted candidate for years leading up to his hiring in Cleveland. Since then, however, he has managed to win only one game in 32 tries. Cleveland's roster hasn't been very good, but it was certainly capable of winning four to five games each season.

Bill Belichick, Andy Reid and Sean McVay are only a few recent examples that "coaching matters." It's fair to wonder which way Jackson will affect Cleveland's win total. Can he stick to a plan at quarterback? Will he stop flip-flopping, redirecting blame on missed draft picks and end up on the same page as management? Will he continue to allow his defensive coordinator Gregg Williams to play his first-round box safety (Peppers) so far off the line of scrimmage that it has become a running joke among fans, analysts and even the players? Can new offensive coordinator Todd Haley find the same success he had in Pittsburgh? The answers to these questions are sure to impact Cleveland's win total in 2018.

The bottom line
As fun as it would be to bang the table and predict the Browns as a 2018 playoff team, the reality is that they're in the middle of the pack on paper. That's saying a lot for a team that failed to win a single game last year, but the personnel speaks for itself. The Browns are probably still one good offseason away from contending in the AFC and are best viewed as a seven- or eight-win team in 2018. Of course, the season is short and variance and luck will have a say. If the Browns get a good bounce or two and stay relatively healthy, a nine-win season is attainable. That would surely please the late Paul Brown.

That's what i have been saying.


Not to mention we have Haley calling plays rather than Hue. Now Hue can be Haleys check. When Hue was calling plays, there was nobody to check his goofy calls.

I feel like this is setting us up for disappointment. We've got a lot of new parts to figure out how to fit together.

They could click and work out great, but there could also be an extended feeling out period. Past performance would lead me to lean toward the latter being more likely.

Hopefully, they'll at least be a little less cringe-worthy on both sides of the ball: i.e, no more constant wondering how we're going to turn the ball over "this time" and a lot less trying to figure out why the DB wasn't on the screen when an opponent catches a pass.

quote in article above by Mike Clay:



9-7?

That wouldn't please Paul Brown.

Maybe Pat Shurmur.

Mike Clueless.

A wild card possibility? fascinating.

We have to be better; we're drowning in upside. We are better if we stop doing some of the stoopid stuff we did. We didn't just shoot ourselves in the foot.

No, we burned a clip and reloaded. Week after week.

Just stopping the turnover factory on offense should help immediately.

Just give me 8 and 8 baby!

4 wins is (hopefully) the floor, 9 the ceiling.

As long as we stay in the hunt the first 9-10 weeks, Im happy.

This is how I view it... expect that we'll be better than last year... I'm thinking we're around 7 wins

Yeah that's reasonable.

I believe in this team if they have a + TO %

3 wins

I have been saying for a while now that we don't really have any holes in our roster on paper at least.

What is our weakness as a team? Punter? Kicker?

I am not saying that we will follow in their footsteps this year, but I remember the 2001 Pats. They had a foundation, but also a lot of holes. They signed a bunch of "guys", who fit their team, and won the Super Bowl with a QB no one expected to be able to.

They signed guys like Terrell Buckley, Mike Compton, Bryan Cox, Marc Edwards, (remember him?) Larry Izzo, David Patten, (remember him?) Roman Phifer, Anthony Pleasant, (another former Brown, but from the pre-Ravens days) Terrence Shaw, Antowain Smith, Mike Vrabel, and Ken Walter. and some others whose contributions were so small that I didn't list them)

They drafted Matt Light and Richard Seymour.

At the time, this looked like an unimpressive haul, but many of these guys became cornerstones of a Super Bowl winning team. (along, of course, with former 6th round pick Tom Brady) The guys they signed, however, fit the team.

I am hopeful that we have done the same this off-season. On paper, it looks like we added guys who fit. I see a 6 win team, to a max upside of maybe 9 wins ... but we'll see how they do.If we added guys who fit, it could be a good year.

I'll wait and read the article printed after our usual Browns' injury list appx. week 5.

what fools!!! dont they know the only way is to tear it down to the studs!!!! make yourself into a expansion team and good things happen!!!!!

I think my average win prediction from the previous 2 seasons was 4. 3 in 16, and 5 last year. In reality it was .5. The last team to go winless, proceeded to go 10-6 , and make the playoffs.

9-7, it will be fun how far ball control takes us

Getting to bye week and still playing for something would be heaven-is for a change.

I would have to consult my Browns Fans' Owners Manual to see how we are instructed to act for a Browns playoff run.

Go ahead! Make me cheer!

I know the strength of schedule is tough to predict ... but to me, our opponents look really tough.

- the secondary has 3 HUGE question marks ...

- RT is a question mark and LT is a POTENTIAL DISASTER ..

We’ve IMPROVED pretty much all over but we STILL HAVE HOLES ...

Quite frankly I think were not only potential wild card sleepers but were not that far behind Pit .. there not that good ... our D very well could be better than theirs ... its a cryin shame what happend to Shazier but thats a HUGE ASS LOSS for them and their secondary is as big a question mark as ours ...

Off the top of my head, this year we play 7 playoff opponents from last year, and the Denver Broncos have 3 playoff teams from last year on their schedule

I know it's paper, but I'll throw it out there. I think EJ Gaines will ball, our secondary has talent

Any clue if Gaines is in his contract year?

I think the word "Legitimate" is misplaced.

In order to be a wildcard team - we need a ton of things to fall just right. Lightning in a bottle. That's not a legitimate - as in expected - wildcard team .... that's a "if they get real lucky" they might be a wild card team.

We have a lot of improvement across the team - also lots of questions.

As someone else wrote - I think 4 wins is a realistic floor barring catastrophic injury (or loss of top talent through stupidity) and maybe 8/9 wins is a ceiling. I'd be much more surprised at 9 wins than 5 wins.

1 year deal.. so yea contract year lol

Ty sir ...

U must not realize that the Titans and Jills made the playoffs last year ... either that or u have no clue how “good” they were ...

OH Mike, Mike, Mike ( Mike Clay wrote this article for those of who who didn't notice that)



Mike if you really believe any Browns fan born between 1960 and 1990 does not believe that Browns use to be good, then you must be a fan of Ballet instead of football just like the people you are referring to.

I see a 5 win season ahead of us so I hope I am wrong and your right about our record this year. This is our third year into a five year plan, the year we are supposed to be respectable again. I see 2019 as our year to make it to the playoffs, and 2020 as our year to contend to make it to the Superbowl.

I take it that you are a realist and not a fan of instant gratification...

We play some pretty good QBs as well. Our secondary still will be an issue IMO

Oh I love instant gratification, I just never expect it.

ON opening day I will be full of hope but do not expect much because we are the browns.

I can see the Browns winning 5 to 8 games. but at some point you have win games in your division. it has to start there.
I can see the Browns sweeping the Ravens maybe stealing one from the Bengals and Steelers.
ironically the Browns have been competitive with the Steelers but the Bengals have had their way with the Browns with blowouts
going .500 in the division would be a monumental step for this team
the offense will.keep.this team in games in the 4th quarter.
the defense still has question marks cause it lacks diffrence makers at LB and it could be soft up.the middle.
I think the secondary will surprise but it all starts with communication cause with all the new faces back there
wild card is more credible next year

IMO, we should just take it 1 step at a time. We have a lot of new players that have to learn to work with each other as well as a brand new OC. To me, 4 or 5 wins is realistic at this point. Competitiveness in all the games is important too. We are young and still have a ways to go.

What happened last year on other teams doesn't really impact what I said.

To be a legitimate wild card sleeper I think it's fair to say you need to be expected to win 8 games. . . . I don't expect the Browns to win 8 games. And I'll gladly bet money with anyone that says that they do expect 8 wins.

The Bills made the playoffs last season. Because Tyrod is now with us, a legitimate question:

Roster-wise, do they have more talent last year than we do this year?

...

NOT EVEN CLOSE ... hence why i made the point to 88 ...

If TT was our QB we would have won 4 - 6 games with last years talent and all the injuries ....

We have way more talent than folks give us credit for ...

Yeah, four or five wins with no allowances of being blown out or destroyed in any of the losses would do it for me. A clear sign of the improvement and upgrade of the roster/talent/people playing better in their second and beyond years.

I'd agree. Looking on defense now: Collins, Kirksey, Schobert, Garrett, Ogbah, Ward, Peppers, Randall ... that's a lot of high draft picks and/or Pro Bowl players.

Add in Hyde, Landry, Gordon, Chubb, Njoku's 2nd year ... that's honestly a fair amount of talent in the NFL

When I look at the Browns roster, I see a lot of average to above players a a lot of key positions.

QB: Taylor and Mayfield.
RB: Hyde, Chubb, and Duke
WR: Gordon and Landry
TE: Njoku and DeValve
OL: Bitonio, Corbett, Trotter, Zeittler, and Hubbard

DL: Garrett, Ogbah, Ogunjobi, Brantley, Smith, and our rookies.
LB: Collins, Schobert, Kirksey, Avery
DB: Ward, Boddy-Calhoun, Carrie, Gaines, Kindred, Mitchell, (maybe) Peppers and Randall. Also we have Wilson who was drafted last year,who might be something.

That;s not a stacked roster, but it is, at least, an average roster, with some standout players on it.

That's a whole lot better than what we had to offer last year.

I'm hoping that Peppers turns into an actual player now with some other options at S

Diam above:




I agree. Too many people focus on a team's record. W's and L's are way overemphasized.

I say just relax and watch all that great talent.

My granpappy used to always say, "It's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game."

Granpappy hilldawg was very wise.

I think Hue's daughter hijacked another post.

After the first win.. then we can talk about being a sleeper.

only if i really did - lol

Show me..

I've had my fill of "talk"...just show me.

Prove it... on the football field!

I’m with you. I’m on press blackout. I’m done watching pressers with the coach or FO. It’s all the same crap, different mouths it’s coming out of. “We’re going to work hard. We believe in our process. We really like the guys we brought in. We’re changing the culture....blah blah blah” I’m done with listening to any of them. Win and I’ll start listening. Until then it’s just talk. Talk I’ve heard before. The culture will change with wins. Not with lip service.

we've hear this song and dance before. yes, this year feels a little bit different with so many acquisitions and high picks but show us

Actually, the Lions went from 0-16 to 2-14 to 6-10 and then 10-6... hopefully that's not our road lol.

This is WAY DIFFERENT ... u guys can allow past failures to keep u negative ... i 100% UNDERSTAND IT ... we’ve stunk for so long ... i refuse to let past failures affect my ability to see what we have now ...

I have never been even close to this optomistic ... i’m Not sure since our return if i’ve Been “positive” about a season since our return .. Pit, Vers and I have spent the last 20 years being berated by the board for being “negative” when we were being REALISTS ...

Maybe thats why past failures don’t affect me as much .. i’ve never been BURNT cause i’ve Never went into a season with much expectation ... theres been 2 years since our return i’ve been dissapointed based off my expectations going into the season ...

The difference in talent in this league is MINIMAL ... If we had TT and the Jillls had Kizer last year ... we win 4 - 6 games and they don’t win that many instead of going to the playoffs ... and that was with LAST YEARS TALENT and a HC/OC ...

And guys ... not only did we AQUIRE ALOT MORE TALENT .... but the 1st and 2nd year kids will MAKE STRIDES ... all the KIDS will IMPROVE ...

We were a BETTER FOOTBALL team than people think ...

I cant believe this day has finally come ... I’M THE OPTOMIST ...

Very well said, Diam. I agree...

Hue is still the HC, Haslan still the president, and we still have a smart-ass has GM, so your point is numb.... We already had a team better than 1-31, yet...

Thats your opinion dawg ....

u can wallow in your “despair” over the state of our team til the season starts while i look forward to it with hope and optomism ...

Then you’ll either be thrilled or i’ll be peed off every week ...

Time will tell dawg ... time will tell ...

Kinda like the Yellow Brick Road sin-drum , lol .. Improved , yep I think so . Very Tough schedule , yep I think so ..lol

"Legit Sleeper" isn't all that flattering...

If you go into this season thinking we SHOULD compete for the playoffs, then yes there is a very good chance you will come out of it disappointed.

I'm looking at it like this.. I think 5 wins is about where we will end up.. but taking it as a positive that others think we have improved enough (on paper) to warrant an article like this

I see 11 very winnable games ...

Jets
Faiders
Rats x 2
Chargers
Tampa Bay
KC
Cinci x 2
Texans
Broncos

Theres no reason to think we can’t win at least six of those ... none what so ever ...

Then we pull out two or three against the panthers, saints, falcons and stilers x 2 ...

Quite frankly the panthers, saints and falcons don’t scare me much at all ... OK .. the aints do .. they could be really good this year ... the falcons not so much anymore ... they miss Shanny on O and there D SUCKS ASS ... same with the panthers ... cant put a finger on why they seem to underachieve every year but the one ...

Anyhow ... depending on injuries ... im VERY OPTOMISTIC for this year and IMO FOR GOOD REASON ...

Don't see any winnable games on those, sorry.

All those teams are several notches above the Browns, maybe 1-2 games,just because in any given week we can win one game.

Adds that mid season we are going to melt down, Hue is going to be fired, Mayfield is going to start, and we will be in rebuild mode once again.

If you really believe this, you should borrow as much money as possible and bet it on the Browns wins over/under for 2018.

It looks like Vegas has the Browns at 5.5 wins.

You do really believe this right? Because we both know money talks.

Who knows? Maybe you'd win.

If I had $100 to blow, I would.

How much could i win if i put down 100 today?

I’m not a gambler in that regard .. im still peed i didn’t put down 100 on Baker when he was 33 to 1 ... i didnt really understand what it meant then once i realized it i was just a moron and never asked how to place the bet ..

Are u kidding me ... at 33:1 ... those were great odds for that ... im nota gambler but im not stupid either .. *L* ...

Anyhow ...

I think we will win over 5.5 games ... how much can i win and how do i place the bet? ...

Side note ... u made a reply to a post I made similiar to this one ... same subject, basically the same post by me u were responding to ...

And this is why i love u ... your response was so well crafted i could not tell if u were agreeing with me or making fun of me ... or doing both at the same time ... *LOL* ...

That’s SPECIAL dawg ...

I think we're staring down the barrel of a 7-9 season. Less than 6 wins is a total disappointment. Hopefully injuries are at a minimum and we can see these young players begin to blossom.

There is MUCH more talent on this team than people are giving us credit for. If we find a groove early, challenging for a playoff spot isn't out of the question. Playing meaningful games in December is on the docket this year... and it's pretty damned exciting. This is year one of a two year plan of returning to respectability, returning to the playoffs, no longer being the brunt of everyone's jokes, not having to say "because Cleveland", being the Factory of Excitement... "Pandemonium Palace". Taking this group of players and instilling some confidence, watching them "learn to win", will get rid of this stench in a hurry. It's way overdue.

Legit Playoff Contenders? That's just a line to sell a story. Bottom line? There are some very legitimate reasons to see an about face on futility and an immediate return to relevance.

after what sashi did we will be rebuilding for ten years lol

Top five overall in draft selection in each of those ten years lol!!!!!!!!!!!! Dark years my friend, let's both hope they can get it right with all these high round picks that need to amount to something.

Diam above:

[kwote]And this is why i love u [/kwote]

No, I love you.

Hey I don't know how to do a bet in Vegas. I imagine it can be found out on-line (but maybe not placed via on-line, yeah, probably not)

I'd only argue you on Chargers, KC, and Broncos. Also, it matters when during the season those winnable games happen. Our offense is not going to be locked in on day 1. Too many new things, new people, and not-so-new people that are still developing and learning.

I love u more .... *L* ...

If u had to place the bet .... would u take over or under 5.5 wins?

Under, no matter the roster quality, I fully expect the browns to find a way to Hue it up. 2017 was the singel worst head coaching job in the history of the nfl.

You know which.

But the good thing for Browns fans is that 5.5 wins is where the money is.

It's what Vegas thinks. It's not fan chit chat.

Of course the Browns beat incredible odds last year.

I'll bet you could have got a 1,000-to-1 pay-off on "under 1/2 win".

If so, that would have been $100,000 on a $100 bet.

What a missed opportunity for Browns fans.

Let me know if you need any more betting advice.

Got to go. Startin' to rain. Later.

No, i don’t which....was that a spelling slam by u .. *L* ...

Thats why I asked ...

U take the over or the under sir ...

Ty dawg ...

I saw this article pop up on my phone and just kinda rolled my eyes.

Myself and a buddy here at work (Southern California) are both Browns fans, and we kinda laughed the other day about all the draft picks and FA moves like, "Dangit! They got us again, we're excited for the season!"

I feel like the words Browns and Wild Card (as in playoffs) is REALLY setting ourselves up for disappointment... again. My expectation for us is that we play watchable football at some point this season. I don't expect us to be playing watchable football game 1. There are just too many rookies, 2nd year players, and new FAs and new coaches and stuff for us to finally look like an actual NFL team on the field.

The Browns are a improved team.

Dorsey has brought in more talent, depth, and position competition both from free agency and the draft.

Now it is up to the coaching staff to incorporate a playing personality. Then they have to teach the players the schemes and how they have to be executed.

How quickly this happens and to what degree will dictate the wins and loses. I believe a winning season is not out of the question.

Taylor just has to play up to the level he has already shown. He is not going to carry an offense but he can be effective with weapons around him. Dorsey has brought the weapons. Haley will do the job of getting them ready. Haley has the players to run an effective offense that should be able to score.

Williams now has the defensive pieces to execute the defense he wants to play. Williams is in a place a lot coaches would like to be in. He was part of the decision making process in getting the players that can play his scheme. He has the players at all three levels (DL, LB's DB's) to make a difference.

You can never predict injuries. However, for the first time in many moons the team should be competitive and interesting to watch.

Hopefully we will be playing games that still mean something after Thanksgiving.

Five wins would be a huge improvement over last year. Eight wins would be insane. Nine wins, not gonna happen. If the Browns have taught me anything it's to curb my enthusiasm.

I would not make a large wager on the over/under at 5.5.. I think that is right where it should be.. I think it will come down to us getting out of the gate.. (not the Steelers or Saints, that would be asking a lot).. but then we have Jets, Raiders, Ravens, Chargers, Buccaneers.. that's 5 games and if we can win 2 or 3 of those, I think we can win 6 or 7.. if we find ways to lose those, this team could very easily slip back into the "here we go again" mode and it could be a 1 or 2 win season with a bunch of "showing up" in the second half of the season..

I'd take Rastan's bet if he was willing to bet we won't win more than 1 or 2 though..

I repeat.

This team's success will depend, a lot, on health.If we don't lose a lot of guys to injury, we can win 6-9 games.

Signs of the Apocalypse and that the last seal has been opened

• mac and I agree
• Diam is being optimistic.
• Diam's spelling has magically cleared up (mostly).

I see what we have, and I see the potential of what is here for both this season and beyond.
I'm waiting to see if the guys running this show can pull it all together and get it to perform up to its capabilities.

Please let me know when 50 percent of the Browns fans agree with you. Then I can fight with a whole bunch of people.

Right up there with "Bona Fide Long-Odds Crapshoot" is closer. Or "Participation Trophy Pipe Dreamers" perhaps. No props until we win some. I would love to leave some shock and awe victims in our wake for a change.

LOL
At least you know where you are in the stream of time.

Five wins would be a total failure. Total failure. We should have won 3-4 last season.

5 wins is about what I expect. Maybe 3-4 and Maybe 6-7 if we really develop and have some luck

I'm still trying to figure out what a "Legit Wild Card Sleeper" is...lol

That first game will say a lot. We almost beat them in the opener last year. I think we are better and they are worse than last year.

I'd also like to see what happens to Big Ben if we smack him in the jaw (figure of speech) early and often. Will he quit?

Got to stop getting too excited...but its a long time coming dawgs. This is the best look at success we have had in a long long time!

j/c:

If 5.5 is the over/under for the Browns win total, I would avoid the bet. That seems like a very smart number. If I had to choose between the two and didn't have to risk money, I would take the under.

I see some positives:

--Landry was a huge acquisition.

--The young guys are a year older.

--Taylor is better than than Kizer.

--The secondary looks better. Ward is a real player. Randall can't be worse than Peppers. And we brought in Gaines, who I like.

There are some negatives:

--Hue is a better OC than Haley. There are real reasons why Hue was the hot candidate for a HC and Haley was not a few years ago when Hue was at Cinci and Haley at Pit. I am extremely disappointed to hear Haley has complete control of the O.

--LT is going to be an issue.

--I think Crow is a better back than Hyde.

--I had Chubb ranked 7th at RB before the draft. You can read my analysis on the Ranking and Evaluating the Running Backs thread in the Draft forum. Dude is not the same guy post-injury. His inability to turn the corner is going to be costly in the NFL.

--We brought in more low character guys.

--Sashi gave us a "losing culture." That is hard for young teams to overcome. All that losing is like an anchor around a team's neck.

--The draft was terribly disappointing in regards to what it could have been. We "reached" on almost every pick.

--We still don't have a quality qb. People are overrating Taylor. He isn't that good.

Summary:

I think we are a better team, but I also think that our lack of experience, youth, losing culture, issues at QB, and having so many low-character players is a problem. I think we might win 4-6 games, but it could get ugly if we don't win one early.

Because you don't think 5 wins would be utterly disappointing?

Wow do you DAWGS have faith in a 1-31 coach that already jeopardized the Q.B. position by already naming a starter w\o a competition...oh and by the way I believe that TT is the same height as Mayfied ...just sayin

j\c

5.5 Does that mean they only play 2 quarters to win a .5 game ?


LOL just kidding..I know about the push


As far as winning 5 or more..Im always the positive yes they can... Last season I said the Browns would win 9 because there's always that team that surprises..

I kept hearing Gomer Pyle in my head... " GOLLY !" " they didn't win one game..Surprise surprise surprise "

10-6, playoff run in January.

Weird, ain't it?

I'll tell you what has me less negative than in previous years:
we didn't have wholesale turnover in the FO/Coaching Staff. That is huge. After an 0-16 season, firings up & down the chain would have been CLEBrowns 'biz as usual.' DeeJim stayed the course and let things progress for another season. Minimal turnover/minimum upheaval.


So now, we have some (potential) pieces that might work, and better tools for the coaches/coordinators to work with. Year Two begins with zero offseason drama.

I'll tell you- I like your optimism. I really do. I'm still taking a cautious 'wait & see,' because sooooo many of our parts are new, and this is a young, young team. I'll go this far: this 2018 team looks much better on paper, but they haven't yet done a thing on grass.

Let's just say I'm interested to see what's next, without those old familiar feelings of dread and futility.

#fingerscrossed

At this time of year you can speculate anything from 10-6 to 0-16...

It is silly season part 2.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and you can't tell an ugly duckling from a swan...

It's fun internet fodder, but it is only fodder at this point in time.

Opinions are like butts, everyone has one." True, but they're not all full of stool.

Live it up!
Brag on the Browns! Hurry!

Dawgs! We are undefeated. Carry on. Talk among yourselves.

Interesting way to phrase it, Clem...

OK boys and girls

I’ll bet you were hoping for a statistics and probability lesson this morning.

If so, make another coffee, climb into your favorite PC chair, and relax. You’re reading the right post.

Below is a Bell Curve representing the probabilities of the Browns win total for 2018.

Aren’t you excited?

This is based, as it should be, on the Vegas wins over/under for the Browns this coming season.


Here’s how to read this graph.

Vegas says 5.5 wins. That means the greatest likelihood is the Browns will win 5 or 6 games. And these are the highest parts of the graph.

As the graph shows, the chance of this is 38.2% (chances of either 5 wins or 6 wins is each 19.1% + 19.1% = 38.2%)

The odds the Browns will win something other than 5 or 6 games gets less and less as you move away from 5.5 wins.

The chances the Browns will win 7 games (or win only 4 games) is 30% (15% + 15%)

Continuing only on the upside:

Chance Browns finish .500 (8 wins) = 9.2%
Chance Browns win 9 games = 4.4%
Chance Browns win 10 games = 1.7%

And even a .5% chance (that’s ½ of 1%) that the Browns win more than 10 games. This year.

Damn!

I made one small mistake.

These statistics and probabilities are based on the mathematics of the observable universe as man knows it.

Never mind. We're screwed.

Will he quit?

Ben has beat the Browns so often and in so many ways I see no reason for him to quit.

He is a great player.

We are just going to have to beat them straight up.

Hell I would be happy if we could go 500 in division.

Hard to hold back some enthusiasm after playing doormat for so long.

Until I actually see the team play and what they really look like; I don't know. I have never gotten into predicting because the team has been so bad what is the point? I mean 2 wins 5 wins so what?

For me you are either playing for a playoff spot or you are treading water.

I want 9 wins. A winning season damnit.

The team owes the city for the support they have given for the garbage product that has been on the field.

I do think the first four games will mean a lot. If they start losing bad early it will not go well.

Ya ... when i re-read it i had to go check to see if it was really a post by me ... *L* ...

Definelty strange footing ... nice for a change ... hopefully we all come to expect it ....



I completely understand the cautious wait and see ... 100% ... its smart, especially based on our past ...

We have more talent that ever before ... we have a competent QB and thats a HUGE upgrade from last year ... there is no reason to think we shouldn’t win 6 games and 8 is a definite possibility ...

U know what the sad part is Clem ... i’m considered the optomist cause i dont think 8 wins is out of the realm of possibility ... thats a pretty low bar for being considered an optomist ... i’d *L* but now i’ve Managed to depress myself .. good job diam ... *L* ...



Me to on both ...

Odd thing is this year i think we can win some games and more importantly be much improved .... but the one thing that matters the most to our long term success ... barring injury more than likely won’t even see the field this year ..... so the thing i have my fingers crossed the most for ... we more than likely won’t learn a thing about ...

Will he quit...more so that its the first game of the season not the fact he is playing us. He has created some doubt if he should take on the pain and it has to be lingering in his head.

I'm sure he is committed to the season the word or action "QUIT" is referenced to his mental breakdown. Because the beating comes from the Browns something he rarely experienced ( I think the one Mangini game ) from the Browns would intensify his mental reaction to a good ole beat down. "QUIT" is his mental state that I was referring to. Not literally, throw up his hands during the game and go into the locker room and pack his things and leave football.

I know this is a message board and somethings are impossible to grasp the exact meaning of things. But I didn't think I had to spell it out but evidently I did.

I've stuck up for Big Ben and admired him throughout his career. I've also been on record to state that it could have been one of our biggest DRAFTING ERRORS since the 1999 emergence of the team again. In many ways terrible. Giving up a 2nd round pick to move up one spot to take KW2 a TE and not staying at 7 and taking Big Ben. Probably the best QB from that talented 2004 QB class! This was not a Steeler Suck post from me.

This is real football and we can only go on speculation that he has that "can I go through another season of pain". If it comes at him early and often, my question is legit...Will he Quit!

jmho

Because I think 5 wins is about all this team is going to win this season.

I don't think he is made that way.

How is he jeopardizing the position by establishing immediate stability and removing any/all sideshow distractions by not having an open competition?

He's stabilized the position by declaring who it will be and by extension who will be sitting and learning. That's a weird way of jeopardizing things

I think its good that a qb has been named as starter now. Gives the starter stability and confidence

if TT plays lights out.. we might win 3 games this year.

J/C ... I am not sure who will be more disappointed, if we win 8 games this year ...... those who expect us to win 10 ........ or those who expect us to win 3.

I figured with the pretty tough schedule I be ok with 5. Still alot of youth and now another offense installed and added defensive schemes. Better execution and a much better turnover ratio will make.me happy.

I don't expect many wins BUT... I'll be the first one to eat some crow if we get eight wins. I'll do it with a smile on my face too.

How many expect us to win 10 games? I just expect we won't lose 10 games.

This is an optimist expectation.

7 wins?

Slow down.

I refuse. 10 losses needs a new coach.....I don't want that.

lol, me neither! That's why i'm not saying 10 losses needs a new coach.

We just got a bunch of new guys. They have to mesh together. Might take some time.


I like our coordinators a lot (besides Special Teams). I'm going optimistic but keeping Hue on a long leash

ok...

Sorry Pete. You can't erase history. 41 losses in 3 years isn't something a coach can survive.

This will be the last I will comment on this as I don't want to hijack the thread.

I'll go with the thought we are a legit sleeper and might snag a wildcard spot.

I think we are looking at 3-4 wins. But I will not be disappointed if we win 8. Far from it.

I'd be thrilled with 8 wins..

general reply...

I'm going to say the same thing I've said the last couple offseasons. It's not about win totals to me, at this point. I just want to see something out there on the field. I want to see our infusion of talent showing up. We're going to have breakdowns and bonehead plays, and we're going to have games where we're still outmatched against the better, established teams. But I want to see our infusion of talent have an impact on the field (make passes/catches, beat defenses, run the ball, have defenses and offenses flustered... etc).

Also, as the season goes on, I want to see obvious improvement in play and consistency as the team/units gel.

I think we have the talent for 10 wins easily, but like people have said it could take time (years) to really gel.

I think circumstance matters a lot for the record.

For instance, that year we went 7-9. Right now 7-9 sounds good, but not when you start 6-3, bench a QB etc.

If we start 1-6, then finish strong and end up around 6-10 that would be good enough to keep his job I think.

Or if we are 6-10 but with 3-4 wins in the division. (with at least one vs Steelers).

It's all on Tyrod. Can he pick up the new offense fast enough? Can he handle the pressure from an insane fan base? This is by far the most talented offense he has ever had the chance to lead. I mean our offense has some serious weapons and should just dominate if we get good QB play. If tyrod can master our offense and gain some quick trust in his teammates then I think we can be one of the top scoring offenses in the league. This year could make Tyrod a very wealthy QB or banish wealth away for good.

Our season and his career is completely in Tyrod's hands.

So I'm just going to say, the Browns are not a legit wild card team.


Do not get your hopes up.

Our bye week is week 11.. if we start 1-6, I'm not sure he will get to see those last 6 games to find out.

Yeah at this stage, if we just keep continuing to bomb - one has gotta say enough is enough...

Pretty interesting post. Using 2 wins as the standard deviation seems reasonable but don't think I ever actually came across that data. Where did you get it from?

Also 5.5 O/U.... I'd bet the under on that. Then again I would have bet on Darnold being the #1 pick, so do this at your own risk.

Agreed.

It seems like there are teams the come out of nowhere to make the playoffs.

Last year, in the AFC, the playoff teams were:

Patriots
Steelers
Bills
Jaguars
Titans
Chiefs

In the NFC they were:

Eagles
Vikings
Falcons
Rams
Panthers
Saints

In 2016, the playoff teams were, in the AFC:

Patriots
Chiefs
Steelers
Texans
Raiders
Dolphins

In the NFC, the teams were:

Cowboys
Falcons
Seahawks
Packers
Giants
Lions


So, in the AFC, only 3 teams made the playoffs in both years, and in the NFC, only 1 teams made the playoffs both years.

There can be a lot of reasons why ..... players are injured, or return from injury ... teams add the right free agents, and/or players in the draft .... new coaches, and so forth, but the fact is that it's hard to repeat as a playoff team, and new teams come up from the bottom as they improve their rosters, and staffs.

The Browns have a ton of young players who were injured, and are coming back this year ... they have added a bunch of free agents to give the team experience, and improve the talent/fit in some important spots, (RT, Secondary, etc) and, of course, the draft.

It might take some time to get guys completely acclimated to the Browns, but why not us? I think that Browns fans are, quite rightly, so hurt by getting our hopes up in the past, that we are unwilling to do so now.

Just a note:

John Dorsey took over the Chiefs in 2013. In 2012, they were 2-14. They had several Pro Bowl players, but they were also filled with holes.

Dorsey took over, and he traded for Alex Smith. Smith was a Tyrod type QB in San Fran. He was a careful, cautious, take no chances player. Dorsey gave up a 2nd, and a conditional pick, and caught hell from the fans for giving up so much. Seems like a bargain today.

He drafted Eric Fisher and Knile Davis.

The Chiefs signed seven unrestricted free agents during the offseason. Six made the team, and five became starters — tight end Anthony Fasano, wide receiver Donnie Avery, defensive end Mike DeVito, cornerback Sean Smith and guard Geoff Schwartz.

“That’s why you dig and dig and dig and watch film, knowing they fit exactly what you’re trying to do,” Dorsey said. “Not only are they good on the field, but they’re good guys, they’re passionate about the game and all the little characteristics you look for in terms of bringing that locker room together.”

The club also signed a host of veterans who had not been retained by their previous clubs, and several became critical contributors, including starting inside linebacker Akeem Jordan; outside linebacker Frank Zombo, who made five starts in place of injured Justin Houston; and safeties Quintin Demps, who led the AFC in kickoff returns, and Husain Abdullah, who had sat out the 2012 season while on a religious pilgrimage and became one of the Chiefs’ top special-teams performers.

Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/art...l#storylink=cpy

Past performance, as the TV ads say, is no guarantee of future results, but the parallels are quite interesting. We'll see how it turns out, but I am excited, after being really disappointed last year.

I wouldn't call Smith a Tyrod type. I mean, he had a heckuva run his last year in SF. Finally was coming into his own and all.

Smith took the Giants to the brink in the NFC Championship from what I remember. It was a very good team, but Smith was making plays to Vernon Davis.

I remember that trade and being very frustrated wondering why the Browns didn't make that deal. Maybe I was the only one who saw Smith for what he was (or would become), but I couldn't believe he went for that cheap.


I'm happy with Tyrod, but calling him a "Tyrod Type" seems like a misleading comparison. Maybe Tyrod could be called an "Alex Smith Type". Smith is and was more accurate than Tyrod. He just threw the ball better. He's taller, a little less athletic (but not much), and they're both conservative players.

Tyrod's like a poor-man's Alex Smith. Which explains why he was a 3rd round pick in the trade, as opposed to a high 2nd round pick. It also explains why we tried to give up a 2nd for Alex, and netted Tyrod later with a 3rd

The reason that San Fran traded Smith was that he was unwilling to push the ball down the field, and Kap was.

In 2009 through 2012, Smith averaged 15 TD and 8 INT. In the one year (of these) that he started all 16 games, he threw for 3100 yards. His completion % went up dramatically in 2012, and so did his yards/attempt, but in that year he threw only 13 TD and 5 INT.

He was an "OK" QB, but he was nothing spectacular. He was a very careful, very cautious, don't turn the ball over kind of QB.

In his final season, in 2012, he had Michael Crabtree, Randy Moss, and Mario Manningham at WR. He had Vernon Davis and Delanie Walker at TE, and Frank Gore at RB. Smith was benched in week 10, for Kaepernick. Kap was a much more productive passer, attacking down the field. He was also a better runner, but the reason that Smith was benched (and traded) is that he would not attack down the field.

I also want to add that I think that Smith was a quality QB back then, just not an upper level quality QB. He was a very average, cautious type of WB.

I think some people might be overrating Tyrod. That's not a big problem, but it can often lead to harsher criticism when reality plays out.

browns fans... until he not on the roster he will be over rated... unless he is winning then the screams for baker will be going on lmao

I expect/hope Baker is breathing down his neck every second of every practice.

I'll be shocked if we get above five wins; I put our record this season in the 3-5 wins range.

I won't even entertain thoughts of the playoffs unless we hit at least seven wins before December.

Smith took the Giants to the brink in the NFC Championship from what I remember.

How many HRs did he hit that year?

lol

you know what i meant. He was with the 49ers playing the Giants. lol. I assume you must be joking

You live in the Tri-State area, don't you?

So surely you watched the game if only to prepare yourself for Eli verses the Dreaded Patriots.

When the G-Men are in the playoffs, it's packed houses, snacks, beers, and blessing Eli Manning around here, lol

It seems top me that you have been middle of the road on TT for the last few years. Which I am glad to see. IMO he will never be a super star, but he also will never be a bum. He is what he is, and he has worked his butt off to be where he is today. Surround him with enough talent and IMO he can win a superbowl. Surround him with a crappy team and your going to get crappy results. He is the Best QB we have had since Couch IMO and I really, really hope we can sign him to compete/backup Mayfield after this season.

He's not elite, but is solid, above average. The fact he doesn't turn the ball over - and not in the Kessler kind of way - it's a huge plus. He never had the talent around him in Buffalo that he will here (on paper). I don't know that his deep ball is good, though.

I like him, respect him.... Watched quite a few bills games last year and year before. Baker will take over someday and probably someday soon, but TT isn't a bad option right now.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/23474032/nfl-insiders-predict-best-worst-teams-free-agency-draft

*****Bear with me till the 2nd half of this post..

Which team declined the most this offseason?
Yates: Buffalo Bills. Note an important caveat: There is a long-term building process that was followed and not in any way compromised this offseason. The Bills performed exceptionally well in single-score games last season (6-2), which played an integral part in snapping their postseason drought. But it was clear they were not sold on Tyrod Taylor as the long-term quarterback solution, and they utilized their robust draft capital to select Josh Allen seventh overall. Factoring in the QB transition and offensive-line shuffle, Buffalo profiles as a regression team in the short term.

Seifert: Miami Dolphins. Their plan is difficult to discern. They've parted ways with most of their best players, from Ndamukong Suh to Jarvis Landry, and added a crew of aging veterans that includes tailback Frank Gore (35 when the season begins), receiver Danny Amendola (32) and guard Josh Sitton (32). Their faith in quarterback Ryan Tannehill, who is returning from ACL surgery, is risky at best. The Dolphins aren't rebuilding in any functional way, but their roster is not ready to compete for a playoff spot, either. That's a major step back.

Schatz: Buffalo Bills. The QB situation is a mess. Even if you're a believer in Allen (I'm not), you have to admit he's the kind of quarterback who will likely require a lot of work to transition. The offensive line is a mess, too, with Buffalo's three best linemen gone via either trade or retirement. Football Outsiders' free-agency analysis also shows edge rusher Trent Murphy as one of this year's signings least likely to live up to the value of his three-year, $22.5 million contract.

Sando: Miami Dolphins. They subtracted Suh, Landry and Mike Pouncey. They appear to be a less talented team as a result.

Joyner: Seattle Seahawks. Mel Kiper gave them his lowest grade of the draft, and their free-agent additions were arguably the least inspiring in the league. Those might be enough to drop Seattle to the bottom of this list, but how in the world did the Seahawks do so little to upgrade the offensive line, which was arguably the worst in the league last season?


The Seahawks find themselves in a suddenly crowded NFC West with a depleted roster. Otto Greule Jr/Getty Images
Graziano: Seattle Seahawks. The decline obviously started last season, sooner than most of us expected. But losing Michael Bennett, Richard Sherman, Cliff Avril and Sheldon Richardson in the same offseason (with Kam Chancellor's situation still unresolved) is to see a foundation crumble underneath you. Pete Carroll is not to be underestimated as a puzzle-solver, but does he have enough pieces?

Clay: Miami Dolphins. It was hard not to think of the Chip Kelly-era Eagles when watching the Dolphins chase "culture" while moving on from talented players such as Jay Ajayi, Suh, Pouncey, Landry and Michael Thomas over the past several months. Miami is weak or below average at most positions and is suddenly a candidate for the first overall pick in next April's draft.


Bowen: Seattle Seahawks. The "Legion of Boom" used to dictate the flow of the game. Play three-deep coverage, challenge routes and physically control the middle of the field. No free passes there. However, with Sherman now in San Francisco, Chancellor facing an uncertain future and a front-four pass rush that must be retooled, the Seahawks have crucial roles to fill on the defensive side of the ball in a division that features quarterbacks Jared Goff and Jimmy Garoppolo.

** RIGHT HERE.. Which team improved the most this offseason?
Bowen: Los Angeles Rams. The arrow is pointing up for the Bears and Browns after productive offseasons, but I'm looking at the Rams due to the proven, veteran talent they brought in via trades and free agency. Cornerbacks Marcus Peters and Aqib Talib have the playmaking skills to find the ball in the secondary. Go get it. Defensive tackle Ndamukong Suh bolsters the interior of the front line next to All-Pro Aaron Donald. Wide receiver Brandin Cooks is an upgrade for the passing game. Strong, aggressive moves put this squad in position to win the NFC West and make a serious playoff run.

Clay: Cleveland Browns. They had the league's worst quarterback play in 2017 but solidified it by acquiring Tyrod Taylor and first overall pick Baker Mayfield. Joe Thomas and Danny Shelton are gone, but Cleveland stocked up with talent: E.J. Gaines, TJ Carrie, Carlos Hyde, Jarvis Landry, Chris Hubbard and Damarious Randall as well as early-round rookies Denzel Ward, Austin Corbett and Nick Chubb. This is a team on the rise.

Graziano: Chicago Bears. The problem is that because of the strength of their division, I don't know that the improvement will necessarily show in the standings. The Bears spent big in free agency, which isn't always the best way to go, but they've improved their wide receiver corps and kept their secondary intact with that spending. I believe their top three draft picks -- Roquan Smith, James Daniels and Anthony Miller -- are guys who can help them right away at positions of significant need.


Joyner: Cleveland Browns. It's incredible that the Browns were able to improve in as many ways as they did this offseason. They added two quality quarterbacks, have a logjam of good running backs with the additions of Hyde and Chubb, brought in three solid cornerbacks in free agency and acquired the best coverage cornerback in the draft (Ward). Three new offensive linemen give the Browns one of the deepest blocking walls in the NFL, and they added Landry, arguably the best possession receiver in the league.

Seifert: New York Jets. Stay with me for a moment. There is no doubt that the Browns have raised their talent level more from 2017 to 2018. But they also had the furthest to go. The Jets' drafting of quarterback Sam Darnold establishes a long-term focus for what was already a decently talented roster. For the first time in six years, the Jets know whom they're building around. Don't underestimate the value in that, even if Darnold doesn't make a huge impact in 2018.

Yates: Cleveland Browns. From a talent-added standpoint relative to where the team was last season, Cleveland takes the cake. That, of course, includes the fact that this team was historically bad in 2017, becoming just the second to go 0-16. The Browns have cultivated a short- and long-term plan at quarterback and talent across the offense, and they reshaped the secondary.

Alex Smith
2012 49ers Completion % 70.2 Yards 1,737 TD 13 INT 5 QBR 104.1

Tyrod Taylor
2017 Bills Completion % 62.6 Passing Yards 2,799 TD 14 INT 4 QBR 89.2

Lots of similarities.
Both got benched. Both have over 60% completion. Awesome TD to INT ratio and 90% QBR. both run with the ball.

Wow. When was the last time somebody, most anybody had to really earn their spot on the Browns roster.

The Browns are so good, they might as well just win the Super Bowl THIS YEAR! Worst to First,

Nobody was near as bad, so nobody should be near as good, this year. Right!

Tony Dorsett led, won the Super Bowl as a rookie if I recall correctly.

Time for the Browns to do it, This year!

Think about it, They have about 14 wide receivers that are certainly going to be superstars, and a half a dozen running backs that will get 1400+ yards if given enough carries.

And the defense, they just have about 35 people where they would normaly have 20 some, that are ready to plug and play.

If the Browns were just allowed to put 16 people on the field while the other teams stay with 11, Woo Hoo! Super Bowl!!

Oh Wait, Ya Um, ( Well Why not Us? Why Not Browns Super Bowl this year, maybe they should make a Super Bowl Shuffle, Music Video)
** It wouldn't be any more stupider than the word stupider or more of a showcase than the current situation of coach jumping in the lake and 0 fer parades that we already have, so ... far fetched? Why not. **

Can we just GIVE the BROWNS the AFC North Division title before the season starts.
I MEAN THEY HAVEN'T WON A DIVISION GAME IN THE LAST 2 YEARS, 12 TRIES!

(That there would be enough for most head coaches to be hiding (/sitting in the hot seat with/) from the Owner, but our HC, and Owner appear like two peas in a pod.) < Things that make you go Hmm.

The Browns are going to either go

0-16
4-12
7-9 to 9-7 and just barely threaten to be a playoff team.

or go 12-4 or better and win the Whole freaking Super Bowl!

I vote for the latter most. ( It's May.)

Of course I was joking...but the joke might be on me...lol as I thought you made a common slip up calling the SF 49ers the Giants (their baseball counterparts)

2 KEY items here that I think many are not taking into consideration are:

1) Massive upgrade in the QB Room.
2) Veterans sprinkled ALL OVER this roster from FA.

I'm TOTALLY with you on winning 5 games last year if we just had a QB that could hit the broadside of a barn and not KILL drive after drive with turnovers.

Turnover ratio is a HUGE component and is directly tied to WINS. We've seen the stats for it. It's REAL.

I know you're not crazy enamoured with what Dorsey did in FA, but he attacked the 3 weakest links on this team.

QB
WR
Secondary

3 HUGE additions are guys that can actually CATCH A F'in FOOTBALL, as you say.lol. I'm talking Landry, Gordon and Callaway.

Playoff Sleeper? You BET YOUR ASS. 10 Wins is doable if these guys can gel within the first 5 or 6 games and make a 2nd half of the season run.

I'd take the OVER 5.5 games all day long.

We do still have some major questions IMO (albeit, we are improved since January):

1. LT is a big question mark
2. We need Collins, Ogbah, and Kirksey to stay healthy and be productive
3. We need Njoku to make big strides with consistency
4. We need on of the DT guys to make strides
5. Gordon must stay eligible to play
6. How will Tyrod adjust and perform? I know we assume he'll be an upgrade, but he's still not a sure-shot IMO
7. Will Peppers improve? Will his "new" position make him better?
8. Is Ward up to the task of facing SO MANY #1 WRs?
9. Will Hue become a better HC finally? (time management, challenges, adjustments, etc)
10. Will we have any luck finally?


That's just off the top of my head

Please finish your list and forward it to Hard Knocks ASAP.

Their current list is, in no order at all, at all, probably 0-16, Manziel, QB controversy, the extreme number of QB's, Hue's record and future, Gordon and his checkered past, and Kizer.

That might be too cynical, but I bet that I am closer than I should be although I tried to exaggerate.

Did NOT want the distraction.

Like the nukular option at the end! LOL.

Might as well go over the top. We are undefeated at this point today.

Might as well win it all!

Veterans were sprinkled ALL OVER this roster the last several years. The only position group where there are more veterans in recent years is QB.

yea.. why we were the youngest team in the nfl... all those salty old vets we had....

Just because we average a younger roster doesn't mean we don't have vets. Look up past years and tell me we didn't.

just like getting young does not mean your better. short term or long term.

We've won ONE of 32 in two years and you'll take the over 5.5 all day long.....don't bet the house. Have you checked our schedule- it's among the toughest in league. We've improved but so has every team on our schedule....six game wins easy....right, we won all our preseason games last year....NOT a SINGLE real game....show me some Ws before I bet a dollar on our Browns!!!!

Losing Thomas alone probably made us a year younger....GO Browns!!!

Pitt lost Shazier ... that alone means they DID NOT GET BETTER ...

Sorry ... Not every team gets better every year .... matter of fact ... i’d Say 20% at east go backwords every year ...

Crap ... just look at us ... even when we didn’t think it was possible to get worse year over year we did it ... ..

U gonna try and tell me Miami improved this off season ... ...

KC certainly didn’t IMPROVE ...

Those are just the easy 3 ... thats almost 10% of the league right there ...

Seattles another one ... u sure they improved??? ..

Its a MYTH that every team improves every year ...

Look, ya'll can argue the facts but we've done both. We've had a ton of vets and lost. We've had a ton of rookies/younger guys and lost. Both consistently.

I just want a plan that freaking works. If that involves a ton of vets, ton of rookies or a mix bag I could frankly care less. We've seen it all and the faces and ages have all changed, but losing has been consistent.

I'm not ready to bet on the Browns given how it's been, regardless of young high round draft picks or high dollar and etc vets that are here. Honestly, to think we're wild card sleepers is humorous to me personally, and unable to fathom.

The Browns are legit Wild card sleepers. Who doesn't like reading that.

It's believable right up until the 3rd week of the season 0-3, not really believable if that happens, SOO!

Who they gonna beat in the first 3 games?

Vs. Pittsburgh Sept. 9th 1pm CBS
AT. New Orleans, Sept. 16th 1pm Fox; or 4 days later...
Vs. NY Jets, Sept. 20th 8:20 pm NFL Network.

They've got to win at least one to stay legit wild card sleepers, I'll say.

If the Browns start 0-3 it will be like 1 million days, plus 3 weeks since they've won a football game, and it'll be on every broadcast.

I'm not saying you're a troll, exactly... but you post like one.

He's not a troll, lamp. He is a different guy, but he is not a troll.

Based on our history ... your 100% correct in your line of logic ...

Once again ... here’s what u and many many others on here don’t understand ... this is just in a different context ...

It was never the plan or the mix of vets, youngins ... it has always been the EXECUTION of the plan ... the most IMPORTANT PART of the EXECUTION is bringing in TALENT ... we’ve STUNK AT THAT ...

We have way more talent on this team than any in the past ... ITS NOT EVEN CLOSE ...

Look at QB alone ... its a real slap in the face that we haven’t had a QB here as competent as TT since our return ... if we didn’t witness it, we wouldn’t believe it ...

Look at WR ... we have as good a 1/2 punch as there is in the league ...

This team has more talent on it than we’ve had since our return and its NOT EVEN CLOSE ...

AMAZING PART IS ... most fans are deathly afraid to think we can win 6 - 8 games ... thats how SNAKE BITTEN WE ARE ... were talking about being afraid to think we have a shot to go 500!!!!!!

You're right, I'm wrong....was thinking only about new talented players being drafted...free agency loses and vets, like Thomas hanging it up....answered to quick....many improve...GO Browns!!!

Cuz we've STUNK for so long....to just read about how many first round draft picks we've wasted- it can't be real, BUT is....so, yes, I agree with you we finally have competitive talent....BUT the APE on our back is....WIN baby, and it ain't fact until it is.....lots of us are from Missouri....show me baby....all we've had is HOPE....maybe we can win 8, but ONE is 100% improvement- damn.....GO Browns!!!!

U tell me I’m right and then u kick me right in the nuts bringing Joe up ... not nice .. *LOL* ...

The Classless one made the same statement earlier that EVERYONE IMPROVES ... i’m not sure if thats the case since FA and the CAP became a part of the game ...

Pitt couldn’t overcome the loss of Shazier this year cause they didnt have the RESOURCES to make it happen ... only reason we improved even though Joe retired is all the RESOURCES we had ...

Man ... if only ......................................

And the other classless one keeps forgetting that year in and year out people say that Pittsburgh is slipping and we're better.

We are better this year. We have more talent this year. That doesn't however mean we've caught up to the rest of the league in one off season. That doesn't mean we will be competitive in our division.

Could it happen? Yes, anything is possible. But the odds of that happening aren't good. And it doesn't change the fact that every team works to improve every off season. The Browns don't live in a vacuum in that regard. We had better draft picks and more salary cap. That should give us an advantage in closing the gap. But 0-16 is a cavern to fill, not a gap.

What happened to bye bye?

Hope your personals recover To even write/talk about a team who's won one game in 32 makes no sense to me- legit to me means winning a game, then another before you lose two or three or more in a row.....IF we are "legit" there is surely a huge mountain to climb with our schedule....GO Browns!!!

Since we are playing the "IF" game...how bout us starting out 3-0

Very unlikely, but it is not beyond the realm of possibility...

OK....2-1.


0-3 and the sheet hits the fan and Hue starts throwing anybody and everything under the bus.

Losing the home game to the Jets could be devastating to morale. It is pivotal, IMO...

the Browns wont beat the Steelers based on 2 things
head coach and qb.
Hue Jackson cant out coach Mike Tomlin and Tyrod Taylor cant get into a shootout with Ben Rothlisberger.
i guess the Browns could take a page from The Jags and pound the ball but the Browns are not a physical team when it comes to running the ball.
yeah the Browns could win but you have remove Ben from the game.
hes had the Browns number for 13 years

There are no atheists in foxholes, blowing the lid off expectation,

9-7

10-6

Just because .... and why not?

Agree, 1000%- Vegas number is 5.5, for a team that won O last year, looking at schedule before a down has been played, we are underdogs in every game- odds lowest PROBABLY on Jets and Bucs games- we will be 7 pt or more underdogs in every other game- IMHO, thus....realistically I say 500% improvement is HOPEFUL....GO Browns....sorry I'm really from Missouri after ALL OUR SUFFERING!!!

J/C ...... 500% on 0 is 0.

I am not saying anything about you, but I hate the excuses players, teams, and fans make about how hard their schedule is/was. I rarely, if ever, hear the Pats, Steelers. Saints, and so many teams who play well every year, complaining about their schedules.

Heck, as a last place team, we get the last place teams from the previous year in a couple of games, as well.

I look at our schedule, and we should be very competitive, or win, a number of games.

If we want to get to being a good team, we have to get to at least .500 in the division. In the division, we have the Ravens, (9-7) and Bengals. (7-9)

We need 3 wins here.

If we don't get there, everyone is probably fired at the end of the season.

We play the Jets, (5-11) Raiders, (6-10) Bucs, (5-11) Texans, (4-12) Denver, (5-11)

Sure these teams had injuries, or other issues, but they were beatable last year. We also improved in this off-season. There will be injuries in the NFL, and who is to say that teams we play might not suffer some difficult injuries.

This team needs to get past the excuses, and just start winning. It sounds dumb, but teams don't start winning until they start winning. I think that a team has to believe it can win before it actually starts winning. I think that's why we brought in a bunch of players from different teams as free agents. We also added players who won in college. Ward, Mayfield, and Chubb are all from big time winning programs.

As far as veterans, Taylor helped take a team that was so-so, to the playoffs.

Carlos Hyde saw a team that struggled early rip off a nice winning streak to end the season.

Demarious Randle has seen winning in Green Bay. They lost Rodgers to injury last year, but he has seen a lot of winning.

Jarvis Landry is one of the best players in the NFL. His team was 10-6 in 2016, before losing their QB last year.

Chris Hubbard played well for the Steelers, a winning team, last year.

I look at our defense, and we added some pieces to a talented group. (at least the front 7)

The secondary was a weakness, and it's been addressed in a huge way. Randle, Ward, Gaines, Carrie, and Mitchell are all upgrades. Some are huge upgrades.

Man, this team just has to start winning. I think that's a huge danger in the "tear down and rebuild" deal. You wind up losing, and your young players wind up getting used to losing. This is not what you want your young players getting used to.

Look at how many players leave the Browns and wind up helping good teams. They were good players, but they were stuck in a bad situation. I think that we added a bunch of good players this off-season, and some guys with an edge that I think this team has needed.

It's time to start winning. Are they a few teams we'll stand little chance against? Sure, However, we beat the Pats and Saints a few years ago, when we had "no chance".

Speaking of the Pats, I remember back in the 2001 season ... when they signed a bunch of "guys". I remember their fans going nuts over the horrible players they signed. Well, they signed guys who fit. I think that's what we did this year; brought in guys who fit.

It's time to stop making excuses, and start winning. I am not saying that we are definitely Super Bowl bound ..... but we darn sure should be competing for .500 or better.

JMHO, Vegas doesn't give money away often- mentioning JC ain't cool, like many of our fans with all the regimes and do overs- a sensible fan should be from Missouri- don't talk/write about it, show me the W's- legit wild card sleepers- give me a break....GO Browns!!!

i have a tough time seeing the 6 wins, let alone playoff berth.

BUT, if we do make the playoffs in 2018 ... that gives us a problem with Tyrod/Baker for 2019

I HOPE we have the same problem Seattle did with Matt Flynn and his 19 Million 3 year contract..

or Brees / Rivers

To me it's all about how Tyrod does with the best weapons he has ever had to work with in his career. Is he going to get more aggressive and take a few more chances or is he going to be too conservative and let those weapons go to waste? The way of Tyrod is the way of the Browns this season.

We should have won games last year.

Hue is still around but we have a new OC. Hue was like Roy McAvoy in Tin Cup trying to make it over the water with his insisting Kiser chuck it all day long. Unlike McAvoy, he never made it over the water, costing us wins.




He is the head coach, but I hope both Haley and Williams do their thing, giving Hue respect, but not listening to him all that much. Either one of them is more qualified to be the head coach.

Hue gets the record. We need 7 wins. If we lose 10, we can't keep that guy

Tyrod has used these ota's wisely, he has already mastered checking it down on virtually every single pass.

Baker apparently is fantastic as long as his first option is open. Once he is forced to target #2 its clinch those cheeks time.

I don't see it as a problem, whatsoever. If we make the playoffs because of Tyrod, he deserves to start in 2019 and Mayfield can be the backup in his second year. If Mayfield is the reason why we make the playoffs, Tyrod is cut.

Just because Mayfield is the #1 pick shouldn't force a change, especially if the team is productive. Delaying when Mayfield starts doesn't seem to be a big deal to me.

J/c ... not sure anyone’s getting this one right ...

EVERYTHING HINGES on what Baker is showing ... short of Taylor crapping the bed Baker will have more to say about how long Tyrod starts than Tyrod does ... i can hear it now .. what a moron diam .. your being an ass again ... *L* ... well heres why IMO ...

If Baker comes in and picks things up like Watson did last year or Dak and Wentz did two years ago ... HE’S GONNA START real real soon and it matters not what TT does ... if Baker can do the things we drafted him to do he can simply do things TT can’t and will give us a much better chance to win games than TT would....

What Wentz, Dak and Watson have done is a FLUKE for first year QB’s ... A FLUKE ... but u know what ... 3 flukes in the last two drafts just might be the start of a trend of rookie QB’s progressing at a really rapid rate ...

Not sure what type of O’s Wentz and Dak came from ... i know Watson came from an O that had him making reads and doing some pro style concepts ... that could hinder Baker cause of the BS O they run and the fact that division has no defenses that make u go to the 2nd read ... *L* ...

If what Mour says is true ... that he’s struggling with anything after read #1 ... that needs fixing if he’s going to turn out to be like one of the “fluke” three ...

This is all about Baker and what he can handle and how SOON HE CAN HANDLE IT ...

His job is harder than most cause we HAVE TO WIN NOW ... and TT is a competent vet QB that is not going to turn the ball over and we have A TON OF TALENT AROUND HIM ...

IMO guys ... this is all about what BAKER CAN HANDLE AND HOW QUICKLY ... only way that changes is if TT craps the bed or becomes WAY BETTER than he ever has before ... i dont see either of those happening ... my guess is TT stays who he is ...

Just asking, not provoking.

Like your sig, Always did. Keeping it this year?

I don't know if it's such a "fluke" anymore.

In addition to the three guys you mentioned [Wentz, Dak, and Watson] others have performed fairly well early. Guys like Carr, Teddy, Luck, Wilson, Cam, RGIII, etc

I agree.

TT is going to be the starter, but nobody has said he is going to be the starter all year or a set number of games.

At some point Hue, Haley, and whoever is the QB coach will come to the conclusion that Baker is ready. Hue is the head coach. He decides who is going to play. In this case Dorsey may want to have some input, but for the most part Hue and his offensive staff will make that call.

After Hue's first two seasons, he isn't going to be very eager to go with Baker if TT is getting it done and we are winning games. Hue has to feel the pressure on that front.

If we aren't getting it done with TT, my hope is we don't go with Baker to soon.

I think it will work out. Hue is now void of the play calling and the large part of the game planning. He now can focus on being the head coach. Set the basis of the game plan with his coordinators. Each staff will come up with the game plan and then Hue pulls it all together on game day.

I agree with most of what you are saying about TT and Baker. I think the "fluke" thing has merit, however, none of those guys took over (as rookies) a team as god-awful as we were last year.

We have a ton of new players on O - again - although THIS time with productive vets at QB, RB & WR. I think that Baker's progression to starter includes an assessment of how the rest of the O gets up-to-speed almost as much as how Baker himself gets up-to-speed. TT will likely be able to handle the uncertainty better than Baker.

Hue is the head coach. Just because he has an OC does not mean he is not heavily involved in game planning. In contrast, he will be very much involved in game planning to a large degree each week.

To make a statement like that is saying no HC who has an OC and a DC is much involved in game planning. To the contrary, head coaches, for the most part, were hired as such because they have a history of excelling on one side of the ball or the other. Why take a mind like that out of the mix, for the large part, simply because he has, in this case, an OC as an assistant?

All game plans go through the HC for his involvement, adjustments and ultimate approval. To not take advantage of his superior experience, the reason he was hired, would be a detriment to the team.

You quoted what you wanted to quote and not the entire though.

If you had you would realize you are pretty much saying what I said.

That wasn't a rip on Hue. You can read my comment again if you wish. I am not going to try and explain it to you.

Here's the rub........If the Browns are successful this year, posters like Memphis, Vambo, peen, rasta, WSU, 32, device, etc will say that the coordinators did all the good work and Hue was just a figurehead.

On the other hand, if the team sucks, those same posters will place all the blame on Hue.

I quoted the part that I disagreed with which was dealing with Hue's role in game planning. The beginning part which dealt with the QBs and who decides who will play and when I agree with.

Here's another rub: Who cares about the opinions of those with an agenda against Hue? If they understood how things work they wouldn't hold such opinions.

Let it go. Your obsession with what other people post/think is unhealthy. Now you are projecting thoughts for the future onto others...which reads very agenda-ish.

Just post what you think and let the words speak for themselves. Every time you blurt out comments that are more focused on other people than on your point, you look rather petty.

It is possible to be disappointed - or even disgusted - by/with a 1-31 head coach without there being an agenda.

The Hue/Sashi battle died off a long time ago and stayed that way until Vers started bringing it back to life. If there is agenda-posting going on, it's obvious who is doing it.

Nah, I doubt it. If we're successful this year, it'll be because we have a competent QB who is leading us to victories alongside the other talent we have on this roster. So, I'll commend the QB and then give Dorsey credit for bringing that QB to town, whether it's Tyrod or Baker starting.

ddubia talking to Vers about agendas! Thanks for the morning laugh.

Not I ... not even a teeny weeny tiny little bit ... let them wallow in their own little Pit of Misery ... i *L* at it ...

If they don’t understand this is an entirely different team with Hue having taken an awful lot off his plate making his job must different than it was the last two years ... thats their problem ...

CLEAN SLATE BABY ... GO GET UM HUE!!!!!

I hope you don't actually believe the posters referenced in the above are like that. I mean, just because someone is butt hurt about whatever at the current moment doesn't make any of it remotely true. It's just another attempt at trying to group posters into a singular position on a opinion, which is ridiclously stupid and childish. By all means, I'm fine with one person's opinion being questioned, but this group stuff is garbage.

I'd venture to say that none of those people referenced are in accord on several Browns' issues. Grouping people and then labeling their opinion as one, without knowing it entirely is the epitomy of an agenda. Only to be seconded by someone replying to it in the manner ddubia did...the guy that had to apologize for saying something about a poster's thoughts on Hue that were incorrect.

Summed up: Hue is the strategist while the co-ordinators are the tacticians...

They're denying it, but they have already said such things. I think a lot of people recognize their agenda.

My 2 cents is... the Browns have a much better talent level than they've ever had. If the wins don't come this year it's on Hue. I know Hue looks forward to the new Browns roster and talent level and knows this needs to be a breakout year for the Browns or he'll be gone.

To me it's not weather I like Hue or not it's just time to win. If Hue can't get this group up to speed this year IMO he deserves the brunt of the blame.

You've just been added to the group.

I love your optimism man. I feel very much the same way.

I think the addition of Todd Haley to the Coaching Staff as O-Coordinator is huge. Hue just looked overwhelmed last season. Doing two jobs poorly (Head Coach and O-Coordinator) did us no service.

Now, we have a legit O-Coordinator. One that's very proven and experienced (and doesn't need to be led along) is a major edition. One guy, solving the issue of two jobs, as Hue can now take on the role of Head Coach and successfully encompass a wider managerial role.

Landry, Taylor, Hyde, Ward, Gaines, Carrie. They're all big additions. Same with Josh Gordon (who hasn't failed a drug test yet ::Just knocked on wood::). But Bringing in Todd Haley is major. I'm not a huge fan of Gregg Williams, but I loved that he was experienced and has run successful defenses in the past. Haley, I like more than Williams. He'll hold these players on offense accountable and he knows what our offense needs to look like to be prepared week in and week out.

I'm with the optimism. I'm hoping for 6 wins, because I always shoot too high and end up disappointed. But I think 6 wins is very realistic. And it should be a fun season

DOnt get me wrong, I like Hue. But I do question if he is one of those guys who is a very good coord but not the type to be a good HC. I do think he is well likes and respected, so from that aspect I think he is good, but his game management needs to improve drastically. I am hoping letting the OC call plays will help with that ,

You don't know me or views because you don't take the time to read them. You're always assuming things about me when you have no clue. It's kinda old, disappointing, and very mundane.

I've said it before that you actually have some very insightful awesome posts. I wish you'd keep up with those rather than degrade and belittle fellow posters...THIS is what makes this board unreadable at times.


I don't hate Hue and never have. I do see issues with 1-31 unlike some, apparently. I wouldn't be nearly upset with Hue if we had been 4-28. We weren't 1-31 because of the lack of talent. Hue made a lot of poor decisions. Maybe he's learned from them and that's fine and great. But unless he gets better, he's not the one who is going to lead the Browns to the Super Bowl. As Hue stands today, after 3 years as a HC, he still makes mistakes he shouldn't. I just don't think he has "IT." And I haven't forgotten that if Hue leads us to a Super Bowl, I have to provide you with a super bowl ticket. Unlike you, I make good on my word.

Care to explain this one? It's funny, you just lectured someone on how comments like these make the board unreadable. lol

Tit for tat, I guess. I'm sorry. And I don't mind the occasional back and forth, but some of this is incessant and it's all due to one poster.

And all he had to do was issue an apology, not buy a super bowl ticket. I don't recall the thread, but we argued and he said if I was right he'd apologize. It was proven that I was right but he never apologized. I said I didn't mind at the time, but I must have lied because I still remember.

2018 NFL Over-Under Win Totals: Browns poised to be an AFC wild-card contender - CBSSports.com
https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/2018-...nder-next-year/

There's no sugarcoating 2017 for the Browns: it was an egg. A literal one, too, with a goose egg popping up in the loss column thanks to the Browns failure to win a single game all year long. The most impressive part about the whole thing was Hue Jackson, who has never won a game for the Browns on a Sunday, managed to keep his job after going a combined 1-31 in two seasons with Cleveland.

Make no mistake, though: this is John Dorsey's team now and his fingerprints are all over the place. Starting with the quarterback room, which will look very different from last year. There is finally a veteran in place (Tyrod Taylor, acquired via trade this offseason) to give the roster a higher floor. Baker Mayfield, taken No. 1 overall, will be his primary competition and it could get pretty heated this offseason. Don't be surprised if Baker starts early.

Dorsey shored up other areas too, acquiring wide receiver Jarvis Landry, a target hog who had a low yards per catch with the Dolphins, in a trade and signing him to a long-term extension. Add Antonio Callaway from the draft with Josh Gordon, David Njoku, Corey Coleman (who might be on thin ice) and Duke Johnson (future TBD as well) and you have some pretty nice pieces in the passing game. Carlos Hyde is a feature back signed in free agency, but he might not be long for Cleveland either, with Nick Chubb coming off the board at the top of the second round. The only real concern here is filling the void left by the retirement of Joe Thomas. Otherwise the Browns offense looks kind of ... good?

The defense is young and dangerous as well: Myles Garrett, Emmanuel Ogbah and Carl Nassib give them a pass rushing presence. Don't sleep on Larry Ogunjobi in the middle. Denzel Ward at No. 4 overall gives them more talent in the back end along with Jabrill Peppers; Damorious Randall could be a sneaky trade addition as well. This defense looks kind of ... good?

It's just hard to fathom the Browns being actually a quality football team. Vegas isn't in on them yet, setting their over/under for wins in 2018 at 5.5.

What does it say about the NFL that a team can go 0-16 and still end up with a tough schedule the next year? The Browns open with the Steelers at home in Week 1, play at the Saints in Week 2, get the Jets in Week 3 as a brief respite, then play at the Raiders in Week 4. There's a chance for 2-2 there, but 0-4 is on the table too. They need to win a couple because after that it gets really hard: Ravens (home), Chargers (home), Buccaneers (road), Steelers (road), Chiefs (home) and Falcons (home). That's an 0-6 stretch begging to happen, with four of those games at home. At least they have a Week 11 bye after Atlanta!

Unfortunately four of their games post bye are away from Cleveland, including the first two against the Bengals and Texans. The Browns then close with the Panthers (home), Broncos (road), Bengals (home) and Ravens (road). That's just a really tough schedule.

Why They'll Go Over

It's a low bar to hit and as we saw with the Jets last year. Talented, young teams can often times make big strides, shatter expectations and still fall woefully short of hitting their number. The Browns winning five games would be a significant improvement, with them winning five times as many games as the last two years combined, and it would still go under. But there's reason for believing they can get this number, starting with the quarterback position. Cleveland ultimately opted to go with Baker Mayfield with the first overall pick, which gives them a duo of Tyrod Taylor and Mayfield to compete for the Week 1 job. That's a combo that can win football games right now (versus DeShone Kizer and Josh Allen). Particularly when you consider the weapons around them: with Hyde, Chubb and Duke out of the backfield, the running game should be good if the offensive line can overcome the loss of Thomas. The receiving weapons aren't perfect, but there is plenty of upside in Gordon, Landry, Njoku, Coleman and Callaway. It feels very boom or bust, but if Gordon plays the way he did last year over 16 games, Landry eats up yardage underneath and Njoku develops into the seam-buster we saw flashes of last year, the Browns could end up being a league average offense. Don't sleep on the addition of Todd Haley as offensive coordinator to keep Hue Jackson's mitts off the daily gameplan and to make life easier for whatever quarterback plays. A full season of Taylor probably gives the Browns the best chance to hit six wins, even if it might cap their ceiling a bit. Defensively there are viable questions about Gregg Williams' schematic execution but the Browns finished in the top half of the league in defensive DVOA last year and got better by adding Ward with the No. 4 pick. A full season of Myles Garrett would probably result in a Pro Bowl -- Garrett had seven sacks last year in just 11 games. Emmanuel Ogbah deserves more credit than he got during the "why didn't they take Bradley Chubb" pre- and post-draft talk. Strides from this defense and an average offensive performance could result in a second-place division finish.

Why They'll Go Under

Because they're the Browns. Getting excited about Cleveland football is a May tradition unlike no other; we completely missed the Browns as the obvious worst team in football for the second year in a row last year. It was right there for the taking too, with a rookie quarterback and Jackson not bringing in an offensive coordinator. If Taylor gets off to a slow start and is benched for Mayfield (or just loses out to the rookie, which is entirely possible), it's easy to imagine a situation where Haley and Hue start fighting about deployment of the rookie. Picture a Week 6 "I'm taking back the offense" gambit by Hue, designed to save his job with the Browns stumbling to a couple of bad losses. Jackson has not been a good coach in the last two years and has made several critical errors that cost his team wins. If the young defense doesn't take a step forward (also conceivable) and the offense stumbles, this can easily be a five win team. Leaping from zero wins to six wins is a massive step in the NFL and it might be one the Browns aren't ready to make.

The Pick

I'm gonna regret it, I'm sure, but picking the Browns to surprise in 2018 is just too easy. They've done a good job building a nice floor with this roster. It's really hard to imagine them going completely winless with Taylor under center and an improved defense, not to mention his weapons. They probably aren't a 10-win team yet, but the changes made by Dorsey this offseason give them a shot at .500 and a chance to compete for a low-end wild card and/or second place in the division. Give me all of your Browns shares, but maybe stage an intervention if I try to do something like make them a best bet.

VERDICT: OVER

There you go again. Bashing Hue and the poster who disagrees w/you.

I see this type of statement every year. Where you place one year affects 2 of your games the following the year. Two. That's not much.

It affects at least 8.
It determines who you play in those two divisions, sure, but it also inflates the win percentage of the other three teams in your division, whose inflated percentage now accounts for almost 38% of your Strength of Schedule. Add in any repeat opponents from the previous winless season, and you are all but guaranteed to have one of the "tougher" schedules on paper.... it's just math.

The point u made that was HUGE that most just COMPLETELY IGNORE ... and i agreed with everything u said ... EVERYTHING ... this is just the one that stuck out to me and opened the door to this comment ...

U mentioned about Haley not having to be “led along” were the words u used i believe ... that is important and i agree ... on a side note .. we now have a brain trust of Hue, Haley and Zampese on O ... i think that is a HUGE PLUS for us ... and if there not working as a “team” creating things for this group of O talent off of Haley’s base O then THEIR MORONS AND WERE $CREWED ...

I just don’t get it ... i could care less how bad a job u thought Hue did last year ... THE MAN KNOWS O .... if u can’t admit that ... U have the football version of Trump Derangement Syndrome .. *L* .... why in the hell would Haley or anyone else not take advantage of all the tools around them much less that good of a tool ... crap ... i should go change that analogy ... *L* ...

Seriously, do u undertand that ... is there any LOGICAL reason they will not calloborate and work together putting this O together? .... your thoughts on that one ...

OK anyhow ... long story short ....

Haley is EXPERIENCED and didnt need training was your point i believe ... well let’s use this example ... Hue has been the HC/OC of our Browns for 32 games now .... we always talk about the lack of talent ... but the fact he was HC and OC of a team that was YOUNG and INEXPERIENCED is hardly ever mentioned ...

Look at the QB position alone since he’s been here ... he brought in an experienced dude in RG3 and he also had another vet in McCown and then Cody to start year 1 ...

RG3 starts game 1 and gets hurt ...
McCown starts game 2 and gets hurt ...

Then Cody the rook starts and then theres a plethora of changes with RG3 starting a few games at the end and McCown starting one maybe two more ... the rest of the starts wwere with rooks or guys off the street ... did we use guys aoff the street that year ... i can’t remember ...

So he got one start out of they guy that got all the reps and was #1 from the 2nd we signed him .... then we got one start from his experienced back up .. after that it was a bunch of rooks and street guys until the injured came back and hadn’t taken a rep in weeks in McCowns case or months in RG3 ...

Then last year he had the rookie and the two 2nd year guys ...

Think about that for a guy with one of the youngest and inexperienced teams in the NFL outside of the QB position ... then u factor in that QB situation .... then just to tilt the scales a wee bit more lets have the HC also be the OC ...

I’m no fan of Hues and have been critical of him ... but holy crap ... just with talent the deck was stacked against him ... then u add in all the youth and inexperience and a debacle at the QB position .... no one should be HC/OC in that situation ... ESPECIALLY HUE ... his mental make up could not handle losing ... his first year i was worried about his health ... seriously ... he looked that bad when they panned over and it seemed every week he looked worse and worse ... i’m not saying that in a negative way ... he wanted to win so bad he just couldn’t handle it ...

EVERYTHING is so different .... CLEAN SLATE BABY ... GO GET UM HUE ...

If you're curious about the scheduling formula, here's how the NFL does it. Under the formula implemented in 2002, every team plays 16 games as follows:

Home and away against its three division opponents (six games).

The four teams from another division within its conference on a rotating three-year cycle (four games).

The four teams from a division in the other conference on a rotating four-year cycle (four games).

Two intraconference games based on the prior year's standings (two games). These games match a first-place team against the first-place teams in the two same-conference divisions that the team is not scheduled to play that season. The second-place, third-place, and fourth-place teams in a conference are matched in the same way each year.

Beginning in 2010, a change was made to how teams are paired in the schedule rotation to ensure that teams playing the AFC West and NFC West divisions would not be required to make two West Coast trips (e.g., at Los Angeles Chargers and at Oakland), while other teams in their division had none (e.g., at Kansas City and at Denver).

Yes, that is correct.

And Strength of Schedule for the coming year is based on the previous season's performances. We were 0-16 - so, for all 13 teams that we played, we counted as a W, and for six of those teams we counted as TWO W's.

lol, are you (Diam) referring to me with all these You's in the final three paragraphs? Or are you just referring to "You" as people in general?

I was just saying that he didn't need to be led along, which gave Hue more freedom to work with the team as a whole, focus on in-game management, motivating his guys, and working on what he wants for his weekly game plans.

I'm not being critical about Hue's understanding of offense or even Hue's Offense. The only thing I'm critical of is how Hue seemed overwhelmed last season with all the duties that he took on as Head Coach/Offensive Coordinator. I think that's never a good idea for a new head coach. Usually the team is young and the head coach is trying to implement a new system and an entirely new way of running the show.


As to your question:
The one thing I will say is that while Hue is a quality resource, egos are always a factor in almost any job. Especially with guys who've done it for awhile. Hopefully they both understand that, because I do have a feeling that Haley has an ego. That's all part of management (and being managed) though I guess.

That and Haley and Zampese don't really have a relationship I don't think. Hopefully they can work together as well. Cause I've always heard good things about Zampese as a QB coach

Reffering to the dawgs that want Hue locked out of all the offensive meetings and his only input should be submitting the starting lineup to nfl.com on game day ....

Dilly dilly!

I didn't mention any names nor did I acknowledge the "group". I simply referenced "those" who are quick to demean Hue when the opportunity arises. You? I don't know much about your specific opinions because I rarely read anything you write. I gave up on that quite some time ago when it became obvious that you often talk out of your ass.

Oh, and I missed this...


So, I have an agenda because I support the team and everybody on it? Or is it because you don't hear me bagging on players or coaches? The least I could do is hate on someone involved with the team to, you know, show that I am fair and balanced. Is that it?

Talking out your ass again.

ddub, I think Memphis was insulting me and not you. It's what he does. It's not enough for him to not like me, he has to get others to join in.

Well, if that's the case I'm glad I didn't say anything about him that isn't true.

I don't know what you are disagreeing with. I said that Hue and his coordinators would get together and set the basis of the game plan. Then, as is usual, the coordinators would iron out the details and at the end Hue would pull it all together.

I can't help it you and Vers want to keep Hue as offensive coordinator, play caller, and head coach.


Hue is the head coach. I didn't think I needed to explain he was going to have input.

Earlier I said I hope the O guys don't listen to him all that much, and i don't. Not in a insubordinate way. I want everybody in agreement on what they think is the best way to beat next weeks opponent. I just hope Hue can distinguish between his role as head coach and the role of the people he has as coordinators.

Hue likes the limelight.

My son made a good point. He stands by the tunnel when the players come out. Two years in a row he yelled out at Hue and Hue came over for selfies. Sorry, I don't think Bill Belicheck does that.

I shrugged it off at first much as you will, but upon reflection, my son is right. The head coach doesn't need to be over taking pictures with fans like it is picture day. It's game day.

How many times are you going to tell that smear story? And why is it so important for you to smear him? You have joined the dark side.

Can't remember sharing it, but if you say so, I share it because I think it's important. I don't think it is a good approach...do you? Deep down, I don't think so.

I am worried about this HBO deal. I hope Hue spends the camp talking to the players rather than talking to the cameras.


It's a new year Vers. Hue is the head coach. I got in to a discussion with Ddub. I was supporting hue and he got on me because I didn't go in to great detail on Hue's input in to the gameplan...lol

Hue's record is 1-31, but that is done. The scales sit in balance at this point. Last year and the year before don't matter at this point. They are just a pile of rocks to the side. This year is what matters here and now. We are sitting at 0-0.

Let's go out and win.

I'd like to see us go .500 in the division this year. I'd call that legit improvement.

That would be a good start, then win 4 others.


I am not even calling for a .500 record. Win 7 games. The key is not losing 10 or more.

The over/under is 5.5 games. Thus, if the Browns don't win 7 games and you rage on about firing Hue, you will not be aligned w/the smart money and instead w/vindictiveness because Sashi was fired.

Come on man, don't put words in to my mouth.

You keep bringing up Sashi. You keep thinking I liked the guy. He did some good things, he did some stupid things, but in the end, I don't care about him. Screw him. I like Dorsey. I loved the Mayfield pick. That is who I would have picked. I loved the Ward pick and the Chubb pick. I loved the choice of Calloway. A very good move.


Here is the deal between you and I. I think I am pretty good at cleaning slates....I did a lot of that in elementary school...lol. You don't seem as good.


I don't care about some over and under number. Plus, my number is only 1 over the real over....there are no half wins unless there is a tie.

I want 7 wins as a minimum...it's not like I am calling for 10 wins or die. Being only 1 win over the line, don't call me unrealistic. Maybe rather than me lowering the expectations, you should up yours? Just a question.

Thanks

Yeah, Vegas isn't as smart as you are in setting the over/under. Please.

I'm not going to overestimate the team. I'm hopeful, but pretending they are better than they are leads to the call for people to be fired. We've done that for years and you guys still not have learned from your past mistakes.

You quoted Vers stupidly grouping people together on a broad, singular opinion, something he does all the time (incorrectly, I might add). Then you chime in commenting on those people by referencing an agenda on Hue. You did THE EXACT SAME THING Vers did. No one is talking out of their ass. This is the second time in recent weeks you done this.

You were such a better poster when you weren't holding Vers' beer for him.

You should have reread my post a couple more times before replying.

Nothing he said was incorrect. You guys are biased, vengeful, and bullying. You suck the life out of this board.

And yet, this board thrives when you get suspended. That's odd!

If you'd stop erroneuously trying to manufacture people's opinions that are broad, and again, incorrect, then you wouldn't always be called to the carpet. It's really that simple. Oh, and you wouldn't indirectly drag others down with you.

Diam....who is actually saying this?

You had me until the Trump bash...lol

I don't recall anyone saying this...

Thats a fair question .... but heres the thing ....

I stay out of this crap for a reason ... this is one of the very first times i’ve ever commented ... i am now done with it ...

U guys can continue to point fingers and blame each other and stay in the muck ... Its simply not that important to me ...

Anyone who reads the boards on even a semi consistent basis knows whose who and has their own thoughts on it ...

U, peen, vers and ddub can figure it out ... get back to me when you guys reach an agreement on who falls in witch category so I can file it in the dumpster ...

I’ll go back to talking football with Vers and ddub and the majority of others that just want to talk football ...

Enjoy dawg .... u know ... at the end of the day... all i hope for at this point is that your guys argument changes from whose to blame for losing to who gets the credit for winning ...

Can we all agree on that ...

It was a JOKE ... smilies and everything ..... good god man ... Portland did the same thing the other day ...

I come here to have fun, not to have hire a lawyer to proof read everything i post ..

WTF ... and this isn’t directed just at U ...

Vers is right ... the FUN is being sucked out of this place .. his reasons are just different than mine but the end result is the same ...

Its OK DAWGS ... even browns fans are ALLOWED TO LAUGH EVERY ONCE IN AWHILE!!!!

I’m also ...

Have u noticed over the years that sometimes i tend to exxagarate my points ... if not, may the good lord help u ... ...

I guess this is my fault for getting involved in something i have previously avoided like the plague ...

I think i need a break ... this place is getting way to “serious” for me ... i like to talk football and break some chops doing it ... i don’t expect every word i post to be put under the microscope ...

I would like to retract my previous statement and amend it to (this is going to be an exxageration so please take it with a grain of salt .... i expect the spelling/grammar smack ... thats well earned ... *L* ... see .. I POKED FUN OF MYSELF ... its called MAKING LIGHT OF A SITUATION .. ) ...

Anyhow ... i would like to now say ... EVERYONE IS TREATING HUE FAIRLY no matter how much they blame him for the last two years ...

Is that better guys ...

I’m outta here now ... go ahead and bash away dawgs ....

J/C ....

Pure Football.

I know...and it all started when I said it was going to be OK, Hue and the coordinators would set the basis of the game plan, the coordinators would do the lug work on the plan, and Hue would pull it all together on gameday.

Go figure?

I get what you are saying, and I do get the math.

My point was not meant to be that deep. 14 of our 16 games are predetermined. Whether we were 0-16, 8-8 or 16-0. We play the Steelers twice, no matter what. And I do not think how good or bad we are one year makes them better or worse the following year.

I want Hue locked out of all the offensive meetings and his only input should be submitting the starting lineup to nfl.com on game day.

That line takes coaching into account. It's not like only the roster is evaluated.

I think strength of schedule is bogus.

Ours will always be inflated because we lose. For instance the past 2 seasons the entire division has gotten 2 free wins off the Browns. And even with that only the Steelers made the playoffs last season from our division.

I also think the timing of playing us affects things as well. For instance the Bengals were 0-3 and could barely score a touchdown when they faced us the first time. They finished the season 7-6 from that point.

Our division knows we are a doormat. That won't change until we can beat a division opponent. You win all 6 and that changes things dramatically. So naturally, the best teams will have easier scheduling because they aren't playing themselves.

I actually chuckle a little when you see one guy saying we could win 6 or 7 games while another guy snaps back, did you see our schedule?!

There's only 16 games. And when you're the worst team in the division, your schedule is going to harder than the best team in the division. When you finish 0-16 you are going to have a tough schedule the following season. It's inevitable.

In my opinion things such as travel and short weeks are more of a factor than the opponents.

In the past few seasons, including this one, I think the easiest part of the schedule has been the first 5 weeks. We were 0-5 both times and then we hit the tough games... team morale is down and at 0-5 you already know you won't make the playoffs. Even though you try it's never your best.

We play 4 of the first 6 games at home... and 4 of our last 6 on the road.

The Patriots play 4 of their first 6 at home and 3 of the last 5 at home. Start fast, end strong.

Steelers almost the same thing.


So with that, I don't think our schedule is all that difficult. Not any more difficult than anyone in the division.

Like you dont do that enough on your own

Wait for it..........

Diam and I go at it sometimes, and we have for many years, but I have always felt it was all in good fun and kind of tongue in cheek. I like Diam, he is fun to battle with . Its like arguing with Archie Bunker.

But I have to admit, sometimes it is REALLY hard not to throw grammar smack at him. Especially when he is calling people idiot while using the wrong words while doing it , weather u like it or not, i dont care witch it is

https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.php/topics/1462468/1

Could you define the actual post so that any who care to view it can avoid having to go through multiple pages to find that sentence?

Stop playing your games, or at least try and go trick someone less gullible.

I'm not playing games and it was not a trick question. Since you posted a link, would you be kind enough to identify the post...

find it yourself... not hard

should not have botherd.. the only ones that make things up on the board are 32 and memp... they pretty much not worth talking to.

Diam already explained what he was talking about. Don't give me this BS of an "exact quote." The entire thread is about Hue not having a say on O or D.

Oh you are a piece of work! And since you feel that way, don't reply to my posts and I won't waste my time replying to yours...

Coming from the guy that says Sashi Brown was organizing a coup when Farmer and Pettine were here.

from some one working there,,,,


Brown’s a smooth operator, and people inside the facility adore his demeanor and likability. In his dealings with Pettine and Farmer he rightfully scolded the pair for their defensive scheme and signing over-the-hill free agents.

sure sounds like it to me... not only personal but coaching too.. yea .... smooth.. can stab you in the back and make you smile over it

I 'm sure he wasn't the only one in Berea "scolding" them for that and even your quote said rightfully. Must have been a pretty big coup then, huh?

Next time share a link with more substance or at least make up some burner twitter account like Colangelo.

bahaha look for it.. your main source maybe.. twitter bahahaha

Glad I checked in... three pages of trash.

Exactly. Gets harder and harder to read anything...

I agree. If either side would just let the other rant without a response, sooner or later, maybe they'd realize just how dumb they sound, and stop. Instead both sides keep egging the other on, and make the board unreadable at times.

btw did you miss my smile and everything?I actually laughed before I sarcastically put a in there but I guess all you saw was the Boo and then ASSumed...lol

The boo sign confused me bro ...

Wasn’t sure if the smilie was sarcastic or the boo sign was ... i was conflicted so i went with my old bedside manner ... ...

9-7, and we tag Tyrod next year.

Our front 7 is no joke, we’re gonna be be good

I think that is more in line over those who think 4-5 wins.

I'd bet that Dorsey is looking for 8 wins as a starting point.

I doubt it.

Hopefully to trade him ...

If he is the reason the Browns do well, then I'm all about keeping him around. But I highly doubt we tag him.

I doubt it. But, it fits right into your ongoing agenda of firing Hue.

At least you're consistent.

This is his third year, that is pretty much the standard of when a coach is expected to have things heading in the right direction at least.

AFter winning one game in two seasons , Hue better show marked improvement or he will be gone .

JMHO, players win/lose games- Pete Carroll lost Super Bowl calling pass play instead of Beast Mode...Dorsey will review coaching staff after season- I don't think number of wins is the barometer- it's total package. That stated, the Browns do need to win more than one.....GO Browns!!!

Not to tangent, but I agree with the call and passing in that situation. I believe the numbers agree as well.

Anyway, I agree. I don't think wins will make a difference in whether or not Hue remains. I mean really anything is an improvement over 0-16. I think the entire body of work will be scrutinized and to think Hue is not on the hot seat is naive.

I wasn't even thinking about Hue when I made that comment. I don't think Dorsey views this roster as depleted and capable of winning only 2-3 games.

There’s so many factors here and we have NO CLUE what the important ones are ...

Lets start with the FACT we have NO CLUE how the decision will be made ... will it be the thief or Dorsey ... or Dee for that matter ... if Dorsey and the thief agree its no biggie ... if not, who has the final say ...

How well do Dorsey and Hue get along ... that could be HUGE ... If Dorsey really likes Hue and the thief is going to rely heavily on Dorsey’s input that could lower the bar quite a bit compared to where it would be if Dorsey and Hue didn’t get along at all ...

How many injuries and to who ... same with our opponents ... right now NO is a tough draw and will be a hard one to win ... if Brees goes down in week 1 and is out that changes that game to a game we best win ...

Lets see what happens ... i don’t think u can place a set # of W’s and draw a line in the sand and say if he doesn’t win that many he’s fired ...

Is it ok to endorse the current situation? Extrapolate it out, you could have a HC who coached 30 years and went 16-464, but you didn't fire a coach every year. ? No.

It's all up to the Browns' ownership anyways.

I think Todd Haley was brought in to be the next HC of the Cleveland Browns, but I don't know, just a guess.

I've had a new idea that started about 2-3 months ago.

Perhaps the Haslems, looking to show stability, wish to have Hue "reitre" and hand the reigns over to somebody already on the Browns.
And What better way to do that than after a positive outcome to a season, an improvement.

They Certainly are not waiting on 0-16 to get worse.

I think Hue did his job. He kept the players engaged on a team that was built to lose, or more accurately, built to lay a foundation rather than to win. Did he make mistakes? Sure, but his primary job was to keep the players engaged while losing.

j/c

There are a lot of varying opinions when it comes to Hue. Mine has remained fairly consistent. I look at what Dorsey said when he got here and it seems the powers that be agree with my opinion. ( refer to my sig. )

A game plan looks great any time your players execute. Every game plan looks terrible when your players don't execute. It's really that simple. All coaches make mistakes and when you win games, those mistakes are overlooked because the end result is a good one. When you lose games, those mistakes get magnified.

Once again, referring to my sig., it's obvious Dorsey thought this team was pretty devoid of talent when he got here. There would be no other reason to keep a coach who is 1-31 unless you seriously believe he hasn't been given competitive talent. Dorsey has done a lot to correct that situation. To me, at this point, Hue is on a one year deal, and rightfully so. The talent has been assembled to compete and win some games.

I agree with those who say that injuries on the part of both us and our opponents will play into the equation and the assessment of Hue will be done on a game to game basis. I've never believed in giving Hue some long term loyalty. I have however believed in giving him a roster that has enough talent to win and see what he can do with it before he's kicked to the curb like we have seen done over and over again. This is that year.

I say 7 wins, but there is no line in the sand. I am a reasonable person. It could be less wins, though not 3-4 wins.

I am not sure if your post is is jest ...... Or if you're insane .... or both .......

Honestly, there's no reason why we can't win the division.

Sounds like a plan! Make it so, Number One.

Might as well win the whole thing. Play on.

I agree.....but people like Vers who want 3-4 wins to keep Hue for whatever reason, will get mad.


3- 13....that sounds good enough. That would be solid improvement for some.



Sorry....not me. Even 6 wins doesn't cut it for me. Seven wins or hit the road.

So, you know more than Vegas? LMAO.........you are priceless.

You do know that lines are set for betting? The lines are set to create equal betting on both sides of the line. If the betting starts to get heavy on one side, the line is changed.

IMO winning the division is probably as easy for us as winning the wild card ... instead of having to beat out teams like the Chiefs, Chargers, Raiders, Jags, Texans, Broncos, etc ... we just have to try to take care of the Ravens, Bengals, and split with the Steelers.

I'm not saying it like it's an easy task, but our division is certainly not the strongest.

quote above by 'peen:



What's the problem? This statement assumes bettors are idiots. (well yeah, some are - for a while. Then they're still idiots. Just not bettors anymore.)

You do know that betting lines are the best possible prediction of how much a team will win or lose a game by, right?

And there are thousands of well-financed professional gamblers with lots of money who "bet with their heads".

Their job is to make money "beating the point spreads". It's extremely hard to do. Impossible to consistently do in the short run.

And given the final point spreads of every professional NFL game that's ever been played, the outcome is virtually 50/50. (Underdog + points wins bet 50% of the time)

Also, it is a statistical fact of the universe that a 3 point NFL regular season underdog will win that game 40% of the time.

In other words, if you take every 3-point NFL regular season game that's every been played or ever will be played, the underdog wins 40% of them.

The actual formula, which is accurate up to 10 point spreads, is:

X = chance of winning %
X = 50% + (3 1/3% * points favored by)

If a team is favored by 3 points:

X = 50% + (3 1/3% * 3)
X = 50% + 10%
X = 60%

This formula is based on historical empirical data. (what's really happened)

Trust me. I know what I'm talking about.

I agree .... the house isn’t losing money ...

Just curious ... what was the Vegas line on the Jags # of wins last year ... how much would i have made if i took the niners with no points every week after JG took over ....

There very very good and make tons of money setting and manipulating lines so they make the vig ... but there not infallible ...

It’ll be interesting to see what happens to our line ....

Your post there pretty-much sums it up for me as well at this point. However, if I authored that post...there is a defensive Hue-supporter on this board who would NOT like the content.

I actually think most Browns fans I know (personally) would agree with your post as well...even those (like me) who no longer care for Hue to be here. However, we are all giving him the benefit of the doubt (as if we have a choice) that he can be the right HC with the right cast around him. One can hope...and time will tell.

Question, how does this current team compare to the 1994 team?

Offensive:

QB Vinny Testaverde
RB Eric Metcalf / Earnest Byner
FB Leroy Hoard / Tommy Vardell
WR Michael Jackson
WR Mark Carrier
WR Keenan McCardell
WR Derrick Alexander
TE Brian Kinchen
LT Tony (T-Bone) Jones
LG Doug Dawson
C Steve Everitt
RG Bob Dahl
RT Gene Williams / Orlando Brown

Defensive:

LDE Rob Burnett
LDT Bill Johnson
RDT Michael Dean Perry
RDE Anthony Pleasant / Dan Footman
LLB Carl Banks / Gerald Dixon
MLB Pepper Johnson
RLB Frank Stams / Mike Caldwell
LCB Antonio Langham
RCB Don Griffin
SS Stevon Moore
FS Eric Turner

The only way to compare them in my mind.
1994 Browns were 11-5 and legit SuperBowl contenders with proven high level NFL talent on both sides of the ball.
2018 Browns are 0-0, fairly young and totally unproven.

Looking at both rosters I’m not sure any of our current players could push out the starters on the 1994 team. Josh Gordon probably could. Maybe Bitonio at a guard position. That’s about all I see.
Some will argue Garrett but he’s not proven himself yet in my mind. Mingo had decent sack numbers his rookie year too. (I’m not calling Garret equal to Mingo! I’m just stating Garrett hasn’t proven anything over enough time to warrant starting ahead of MDPerry or A Pleasant.)

I don't disagree for the most part. I do disagree in that Dorsey had no choice to keep Hue.

All that said, Hue is the head coach. The slate is clean. He has a good staff and a good group of players. We should see drastic improvements for any number of reasons.

Let the winning begin.

I thought it would be interesting to look back at the betting odds last year. Here are some interesting ones:

Buffalo: 6.0 Wound up 9-7
Browns: 4.5 Obviously we went winless
Jax: 6.0 wound up 10-6
Indy 9.0 Won 4
Houston 8.5 Won 4
Oakland 10.0 Won 6
Denver 8.5 Won 5
Philly 8.0 Won 13
Giants 9.0 Won 3
Vikings 8.5 Won 13
Green Bay 10.0 Won 7
New Orleans 6.0 Won 11
Tampa 8.5 Won 5
Rams 5.5 Won 11


Many of these were the result of adding key players, or losing key players. Others were the result of unexpected development of young players, or a free agent having a bigger impact than expected. Still other were helped by a new head coach.

The point is that there is a reason that so many teams miss the playoffs the year after making them. Too many unexpected things happen in the NFL.

So much is riding on that first game...really it is.

1. We win and it sets a tone that we are contending for the Division title and actually should put us on a team high we should kick butt all year.

2. We lose and not the end of the season but the 0-17 muttering will be there and in the back of the players mind which will only put on stress to get that first win a big thing don't wish us to try TOO hard and tighten up...this team needs to be loose.

3. So I will state this, we win that first game and I think we are well on our way to the playoffs this year. Lose and we got to start winning one fast and each game we don't the pressure will mount.

4. 2-6 I don't think Hue will survive. And I like Hue as our HC...just the history of losing will make it difficult.
Why he is adamnite on naming and sticking with TT as the starter. He gives us the best chance to win up front. BM will have to really show something to turn that decision around and that would be very difficult for a rookie. Although BM is about as competitive as it gets - I think he is going into this by working hard on the things that he needs to learn and not concerning himself about wowing anyone, just learning the little things to perfection.

jmho

yea I do agree. This team has to get off to a quick start or the negative starts swallowing the team. We win a couple early and that momentum could really roll.

Team is starting to take shape and potential of Chubb and Hyde behind this monster run blocking line is scary to think about. Thats not even considering the receiving options.

I am not a tyrod fan personally I think his refusal to throw to the open guy cost the Bills more games than his legs ever won them. I dont know if Baker is an NFL QB. I love his arm and accuracy. Kid is a sniper.

Anyway Hue has a solid staff and he has weapons on both sides of the ball. I dont know if he can survive a brutal early schedule but if he does, this team is built for a December games.

I agree with your assessment.

In keeping with the spirit of this thread, sometimes some simple reflection can put things like this into its proper perspective.

This team has a lot to prove to me, before I can start to think of them in the same light as the core of the team from 94, that became the Ravens and won the SB.

I agree. Memphis posted a summary of a slew of potential reasons why Hue was retained. Could be all of them...could be none of them. It really matters not. Maybe it's just to save money? Don't know...don't care. Results are all that matters at this point.

I think saying we are "legit" wildcard contenders would be better if it said "potential"...because right now, potential is all we've got/shown.

That '94 team was not the core of the Ravens Super Bowl team...the only Browns on the SB team were Rob Burnett, Matt Stover, and Larry Webster.

This team needs an identity, once established it can be built upon. Right now their identity is 1-31. Until that first win of 2018 comes, we they won't begin changing that identity.

That said, I DO expect them to begin that transition. I agree with the earlier poster, the sooner that win comes, the better chance they have of REALLY turning the corner. If they can beat Pittsburgh week 1, look out...

I agree that the home opener is a critical game. After that we travel to the Big Easy, then back home on Thursday Night against the Jets.

We almost beat the Steelers last year in the opener. I think we get the deal done this year.

Face it, we have to start winning at home. Those are games where you have an advantage and the fan base needs to see some wins.

We have 8 home games. We need to win 5-6 of those. Away games, even win 2 of those and it is a good first offering and keeps Hue employed in Cleveland..

If we crap the bed at home, the crap will stick to us on the road.

Win at home. The fans are on your side. We don't like booing our team, but what happened on the field the last couple of years made it impossible to not.

Hmmm....looks like "Vegas" isn't as smart of some people think on the long odds.

They do a pretty good job on the weekly match-ups as Rocky pointed out.

Yes, you are correct. I forget that it was six years later and after our return.

The 95 season was derailed by the awful betrayal, but I felt like that 94 team was close to knocking at the door, and even though the team would go in the tank (Murphy's law) in 95, our defense still played at a championship level all year.

The last home game win holds extra special place in the heart of this old Dawg.

I hear you.....but I am long over that.


I think Art should be in the HOF and think we should be winning more than zero games a season.


But hey, that's just my opinion.

You could make a case for Art in the hall as a builder, but I think he's exactly where he should be...

That's pretty weak Lampy. You might need to pray a little harder tonight.

Just saying....

For the record, the article said sleepers, not contenders.

To me, there is a difference.

Maybe he meant heaven.

Lol, no... heaven is for good guys, so it is said.
Besides, I wasn't referring to heaven or hell, I meant he should be outside the hall and in some other place.
Like, the cemetery.

Peen, I won't pray tonight. lol it never works for me.

Sorry but I hate him. What he did to Browns fans - and the heirs of his long-ago business partner, btw, makes him dirt to me. He was a greedy pig.

I've said it elsewhere, but starting against the Steelers and then at the Saints is pretty brutal. I think the week 3 game will be huge for Hue

We shouldn't expect to bust out of the gate as a fully-cohesive unit. This is a new offence in many ways. IMO it is easier to gel on D than on O.

Don't be shocked if we start 0-2 against those teams.

Hence the at the end.

He can rot in the ground for all I care.

Preacher, meet choir.

Oh, I'll be shocked if we're anything but 0-2 .... problem is, there will be an awful lot of pressure on that Thursday night game. If we go to 0-3, there will be plenty of time for the "fire Hue" and "just play Baker" shouts to gather steam

I believe that 0-3 is unacceptable and that 1-2 is what we reasonably can expect. 2-1 would be a great start...

The Saints or the Jets... we must win one of them for me appreciate the start of the season in terms of the first three games since that's what been said.

Agree that the first game is HUGE ... were gonna need at least a couple weeks to gel ... tough first two ... vet teams that have some talent and two of the top 5 or 6 QB’s in the league ...

Then the Jets ... IMO thats a MUST WIN ...

Then the team should be improving due to having been through some games and then it gets real interesting ...

If we can beat either Pitt or NO and its not out of the question but it is a real tough task .... if we win one of those two ... oh boy ... buckle in for what will be a wild ass ride compared to what our sorry asses are used to ...

He did nothing for the Browns to get him in the HOF...what firing Paul Brown as one of his first big moves???

He was a TV ad man that got in the industry at the right time as TV was relatively new and because of that he helped the NFL make its move to TV as well. Just the right guy in the right place at the right time.

Football wise he was terrible for the Browns. We one Once more with Paul Browns team and then it was downhill we did make a big push with 2 AFC Championship games vs. Broncos but then Modell fired that coach also as he got too powerful.

I hate Modell he broke my heart and many others.

jmho

0-3 certainly would be unacceptable and our worst case scenario, but honestly it's at least a possibility, if not likely.

We'll be 7-10 point underdogs in weeks 1-2 and a pickem in week 3

The NFL did not schedule us many favors, especially to start. Just need to be ready as we can. My idea of parity is every team has to have an O for All season. Just ready to get some wins and get the taste of losing out of my mouth. Realistically, I may have to wait on that

With improved corner play we are going to have improved defensive play. I really expect to see the D make good progress this season.

On O, run the ball, utilize the short passing game and TT's legs to move the chains and use the clock. When the time is right, strike deep.

Our D will be improved just with the upgrade in personnel but also because our O should be on the field longer with the upgrade there. Last year our D was on the field much too long because our O could not move the ball. Should be better this year. We could be looking at a top 10 D.

Sounds good to me

There's nothing wrong with hope - I think we'll could go to the playoffs - but a lot of things will have to go right for us to even win seven games.

I do think we are finished being laughing stocks. We are turning that around, and in a hurry.

I don't think it's crazy to think that this team could contend for the division. Forget about the past and just look at the current roster; I think we stack up pretty well against the AFC North. Our team looks as good or better than Cincy and Baltimore, and I think we have made up a lot of ground on Pittsburgh. Our schedule looks a bit rough on paper, but if we can beat the Steelers at home in week 1, it'll really set the tone going forward.

I know I'm being too optimistic, but I think there's a better chance we finish above .500 than below. I haven't been comfortable saying that for about a decade now.

I would agree with you, but there's an X factor in all of this... and the truthers will try to convince you 1-31 wasn't his fault and that he is all-world. Maybe they're right. I guess we'll find out.

No need to bring Hue in to this. This is a new season. Time will tell if keeping him was a good move or a bad move.

I think this year will tell us just how much talent vs. coaching means in the nfl at least.

No saying what it will tell.

Look, I am not fan of Hue, but at this point it makes little sense to keep bringing up last year as it relates to Hue. Maybe things turn around and he looks like a million bucks. Maybe they don't turn around enough and he is gone at some point during or shortly after the season.

Well count me as one who is rooting for his success, because if he fails ... we and the team do likewise.

With a new year, comes renewed optimism, but this year just seems to have a different feel to it.

Emotions, play a big factor in a renewed optimism, but actions in a postive direction, starting from the top, and the new additions to the coaching staff (debatable, yes), and some of the Veterans we added to the team, and the talent we added in the Draft ... have a voice of their own, and I think that weighs into balancing the emotional factor, that is a given most years.

Agreed, this a clean slate. The talent from this year to last is incomparable.

I agree with Grossi, haven’t been this excited in 10 years.

I try to be fair. Some think I don't.


There is no doubt in my mind we should have won 3-5 games last year. I think we should win at least 7 this year.



I hope we win more. Hue is the coach. We all hope we win, so we root for Hue to get'er done.

One of the few gutsy and visionary posts last June. (after a 1-15 season)

I was willing to give Hue a clean slate after the guy I favored Pettine, was let go, and the start of 2016,
and was willing to believe, surely, halfway through the 16 season that they'd surely pull out 3 or 4 wins in 2016.

And after that, sure willing to benefit of the doubt, and injuries in 2016 to RG3, I mean, of course 2017 was going to be better.

And after 0-6 last year I wanted him gone, it's ridiculous!
Later in the year, was willing to give another shot, they'd get a win, or two, or one, maybe.
And at least thought, of course, He's going to be gone by the end of the year so have that to look forward to,

Well, I think it was George Bush Jr. that said.
" Fool me once, ... shame on you, Fool me twice... f' fool'..ed Ya can't get fooled again!"

fool me once? 1-15 ... twice? 0-16.. if this team starts 0-8, and Hue is still the coach.

Well I don't know quite what will happen but I think it will be unprecedented.

The Browns are legit Wild Card Sleepers? How deep are they sleeping?

Everything else aside, 0-12 vs the division would be enough for a coach change for 90% of franchises.

I'm willing to accept Hue Jackson is getting a 2nd chance; but what is it the 3rd, 4th, or 5th time this time.

That’s all fair, by no means am I saying Hue has done much to date. I will give him the benefit of the doubt. Mainly because the talent on field last year was an absolute joke.

That's the problem.

If we were so devoid of talent, how come they're all still in the NFL?

We haven't been through training camp yet, and we haven't made cuts yet.

Let's see how things wash out, who starts, and who are backups.

I think that the QB position was our biggest weakness last year, and that really brought the whole team down.

Brown's are 75-1 underdogs to win it all.....not the worse even in division.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/06/17/new-jersey-has-some-unusual-super-bowl-odds/

Yet the National Sportswriters are still Ranking the Browns # 32 out of 32 teams

Hue isn't the one getting it done- he hasn't played a single down.....shulda, cuda, etc....won some...we are 0-0, but national writers have seen the results two years in a row....32 out of 32...good guess UNTIL we win the first one and many more after that...ONLY then are we NOT 32 "best"....GO Browns!!!!

Beats being a sportswriters group guy. That has to be based on the past. Easier to write stories that blow us up than to discover how we got a lot different and better, on paper at a minimum so far, this past season. But the almost universal glee in writing about and mocking Cleveland is for crap journalism IMO. Almost breathless competition to see who drills us the worst and dredge up more past negativity than other teams "enjoy", again, IMO.

It is the story they choose to write, often with little skill and less work. They WANT to write it and criticize us anded it shows in broadcasts and media. They want to club us. Much like "An Essay on Criticism." "Critics are legless men who would teach running." Not PC, and may be a little off, but mockery is not a beat. Have a low opinion, but show some balance, too.

The thing is, after reading this board for so long, it's obvious to me that a story like this certainly has a waiting audience.