Quote: Some people really care about the game and the integrity of the records.
I love the game, but honestly... how much "integrity" is there in any of the records? We had the pre-blacks era, the negro league, the amphetimine era, the steroid era, corked bats, nail files on the mound, vaseline under the visor, sign stealing from beyond the centerfield wall, the dead ball, the live ball, the juiced ball, an ever shrinking strike zone, no helmets, helmets, elbow protection, shin protection, night games, no night games, grass, artificial turf, field turf, no domes, domes, gambling and game fixing, raising pitchers mound, lowering pitchers mound, designated hitters, no designated hitters, no drug testing, some drug testing .........
So please tell me, which records have "integrity"? Under which circumstances was "real" baseball played by only honest men?
I don't think anybody coulda said it better themselves.
Your right, when was the last time Baseball didn't have some sort of "cheating" or both teams had some actual "fairness" in it?
Quote: Some people really care about the game and the integrity of the records.
I love the game, but honestly... how much "integrity" is there in any of the records? We had the pre-blacks era, the negro league, the amphetimine era, the steroid era, corked bats, nail files on the mound, vaseline under the visor, sign stealing from beyond the centerfield wall, the dead ball, the live ball, the juiced ball, an ever shrinking strike zone, no helmets, helmets, elbow protection, shin protection, night games, no night games, grass, artificial turf, field turf, no domes, domes, gambling and game fixing, raising pitchers mound, lowering pitchers mound, designated hitters, no designated hitters, no drug testing, some drug testing .........
So please tell me, which records have "integrity"? Under which circumstances was "real" baseball played by only honest men?
I said 'some people'. I didn't say that I was one of those people. So you can pontificate in someone else's direction maybe ask them your questions.
Excl, sorry about that, I hit the quote on your post in error.
Quote: Your right, when was the last time Baseball didn't have some sort of "cheating" or both teams had some actual "fairness" in it?
It's not even so much about cheating... it's about comparing records across decades. I believe that teams of the 50s were playing rather fairly against other teams of the 50s, just as teams of 2000s are playing rather fairly against other teams of the 2000s... but when you take records set in the 50s with all dirt/grass fields, different baseballs, other variations on the rules and compare them to similar accomplishments now..... is it the same? Is it a fair comparison? No, it's not. It doesn't make one better or one worse it just means they can't really be compared as "equal"......
Take fielding percentage for an infielder.. don't know what the record is, doesn't matter... but in the 50s you had dirt/grass fields for bad hops, smaller thicker gloves, but the runners were, on average slower, and the ball probably wasn't generally hit as hard..
now you have guys who play 80% of their games on artificial turf where bad hops are few, some play inside... gloves are a much better size with a bigger web, but runners are faster and balls are hit harder...
So who had it better or worse? My point is that you can't tell.. and in the end, it's nothing more than an academic exercise to compare the two.... so if somebody in 2007 posts a .997 fielding percentage at shortstop does that make him better than the guy who posted a .995 in 1954? Given the number of variables, who can tell?
Sorry, the season record is 61 and the career record is 755. I can't and won't honor someone who cheated to the extent he did.
I honestly think it's a crying shame, he had 500 HR and 500 SB, he's closing in on 3000 hits. He has multiple MVPs and Gold Gloves, and Silver Sluggers. He tainted and soiled his legacy as well as the game itself just so he could break a record that if he had stayed healthy he could have challanged on his own simply based on talent.
Some of those are great. Bar-roid sucks!!! I'm a Tigers fan, hate the Yankees, but.... GO ARod!!!! Stay healthy, keep swinging for the record books. Hopefully you'll break the record before Barry's HGH enlarged heart explodes at the ripe age of 46 or 47. I want him to see how baseball, and America in general, treats someone they respect during such a coveted record run. Instead of the general shame most of us feel now. I tried scrubbing this morning with a piece of steel wool to wash off the dirty feeling Barry's record gave me.
President Bush called Bonds on Tuesday to congratulate him on 756
WASHINGTON -- President Bush on Wednesday called to congratulate Barry Bonds, the new home run king, but didn't weigh in on the steroids controversy surrounding the slugger's smashing of the major league record.
On Tuesday night in San Francisco, the Giants' outfielder hit his 756th career home run, breaking Hank Aaron's record of 755.
"You've always been a great hitter and you broke a great record," Bush told Bonds on the phone, according to White House spokesman Tony Fratto.
In a Fox News interview later, Bush noted the speculation about whether steroids or other performance-enhancing drugs tainted the title. Bonds has denied knowingly using performanÞe-enhancing drugs.
"There is a lot of speculation about Barry Bonds, and my only advice for people is to just let history be the judge," Bush said during the interview. "Let's find out the facts, and then everybody's opinion -- one way or the other -- will be verified or not verified."
If it's later proven that a lot of Bonds' strength came from drug use, Bush said, there will be a lot of disappointed people.
"Baseball and the baseball writers will have to make the determination as to whether or not he would receive the highest accolade of all, which would be to be admitted into the baseball Hall of Fame," Bush said.
Would Bonds' record have an asterisk beside it?
"It really depends on what the facts are, and it's going to be up to them to make the determination as to asterisk, but more importantly, it will be the Hall of Fame," Bush said. "That'll be the ultimate decision point for the baseball writers. In the meantime, anybody who knows the game will tell you, Barry Bonds is a great hitter."
Bush said he loved baseball, but was "dead set" against steroids. "I think it's bad for the game," he said.
In his State of the Union address in 2004, Bush called for a crackdown on steroids.
"I put it in there, because it's part of a larger context, and that is, how we behave as adults will influence how children behave," Bush said. "And I was very concerned that it would be viewed as OK to use steroids if you are a high school kid or a junior high kid. And it's not. It'll hurt your body."
Quote: Sorry, the season record is 61 and the career record is 755. I can't and won't honor someone who cheated to the extent he did.
Well,Hank Aaron did. But some guys are "just a class act".
Aaron, who had distanced himself from Bonds’s pursuit, offered a congratulatory message in a videotape that he recorded about a month ago and that was played on the scoreboard. The message received a huge ovation, too, because, in some ways, Aaron’s blessing of Bonds’s performance sanctioned Bonds’s achievement. Aaron said Bonds’s accomplishment required “skill, longevity and determination,” and said that he was privileged to hold the record for 33 years.
“I move over and offer my best wishes to Barry and his family on this historical achievement,” Aaron said. “My hope today, as it was on that April evening in 1974, is that the achievement of this record will inspire others to chase their own dreams.”
Later, Bonds said Aaron’s message “meant absolutely everything.” Larry Baer, the Giants’ chief operating officer, called the Aaron moment “important” and “very special” because he said it “helped create, hopefully, some closure for people.”
After Aaron’s message, Bonds stood on the field with a microphone and spoke briefly. Bonds, whose godfather, Willie Mays, was near him, thanked his teammates, his family, the Nationals and the fans. As Bonds spoke about his father, a former major leaguer who died in 2003, his eyes grew moist. Bonds walked to left field for the sixth and was quickly replaced, allowing him to receive another rousing ovation. The Giants faltered on Bonds’s big night, losing 8-6.
Quote: Aaron, who had distanced himself from Bonds’s pursuit, offered a congratulatory message in a videotape that he recorded about a month ago and that was played on the scoreboard. The message received a huge ovation, too, because, in some ways, Aaron’s blessing of Bonds’s performance sanctioned Bonds’s achievement. Aaron said Bonds’s accomplishment required “skill, longevity and determination,” and said that he was privileged to hold the record for 33 years.
“I move over and offer my best wishes to Barry and his family on this historical achievement,” Aaron said. “My hope today, as it was on that April evening in 1974, is that the achievement of this record will inspire others to chase their own dreams.”
That message was soooo robotic and non heartfelt. He could have been reading a car add off a cue card with more emotion than that plastic, synthetic oration delivered to the Roidster.
Quote: Later, Bonds said Aaron’s message “meant absolutely everything.” Larry Baer, the Giants’ chief operating officer, called the Aaron moment “important” and “very special” because he said it “helped create, hopefully, some closure for people.”
Closure. Yes we all still loathe you.
Quote: After Aaron’s message, Bonds stood on the field with a microphone and spoke briefly. Bonds, whose godfather, Willie Mays, was near him, thanked his teammates...
You mean the teammates he won't sit with in the locker room? Barry your fake. Everything about you is fake. Your thanks and muscles are all lies.
Quote: his family, the Nationals and the fans .
You mean the fans you hate signing autographs for and generally treat with disrespect?
Quote: As Bonds spoke about his father, a former major leaguer who died in 2003, his eyes grew moist.
Your father you openly disliked and hated living under the shadow of?
Quote: Bonds walked to left field for the sixth and was quickly replaced, allowing him to receive another rousing ovation.
Home fans white washed.
Quote: The Giants faltered on Bonds’s big night, losing 8-6.
Good I hope Roidy goes to the grave without another winning season. You may hold the record but you'll never touch the Championship trophy. There is some justice in the world.
Still waiting for you to explain how Bonds "cheated" when steroids weren't against the rules at the time he supposedly took them and he's never failed a test since they have been.
Not to hijack the thread, but did you catch Mythbusters last night? It was a baseball edition that showed corked bats actually HINDER the distance a ball travels. It was pretty interesting.
Anyway, nobody that calls Bonds a "cheater" wants to address that, because they are just buying the bitterness brought on by Bonds' bad relationship with the media. I don't know if someone else mentioned it but Kruk and others were talking about how open and personable Bonds is away from the media. This personna is nothing more than the media getting back at Bonds for his not giving them what they want.
Yeah, I watched Mythbusters last night. It was a pretty good show. I think a few of the experiments should have been changed...but they'll come back to this show again.
I actually read a book a few years back about the physics of baseball. The book went into more scientific terms to explain all about baseball. One of the coolest books I've ever read. I'll try to find a link....
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
I think they messed up the corked bat one a bit though, since the purpose of corking your bat is to make it lighter for more bat speed, but you are still using a bat with the same volume of a bigger bat. Although it would make sense to just use a lighter bat if you wanted to have faster bat speed ... the mass would be the same.
I also wanted to see them do head first sliding into the bases.
Quote: I think they messed up the corked bat one a bit though, since the purpose of corking your bat is to make it lighter for more bat speed, but you are still using a bat with the same volume of a bigger bat. Although it would make sense to just use a lighter bat if you wanted to have faster bat speed ... the mass would be the same.
Yeah, why didn't they use the humid/normal/dry hitting rig that the "Build Team" used? That could have tested two bat weights and when either of them are corked. Does a 32 oz corked bat operate the same as a 28 oz uncorked bat? Where do they come out equal? And I don't buy the 50% decrease in hitting power.......NOBODY would use a corked bat if that were true. That would be easy to tell if you're a major league hitter.
Quote: I also wanted to see them do head first sliding into the bases.
Yeah, I know sliding into a base is quicker than running to a stop especially since its hard to stop perfectly while staying up - and it creates a bigger target to get tagged [see Jeremey Giambi on that one]). I've always wanted to see the stats on sliding head first into first vs. running through it. I'm sure it's the same but.....
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
I don't believe murder against an MLB rule either. The point is that these are ILLEGAL substances.
The Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990 defines steroids as a Schedule III drug, and imposes federal penalties for both the illicit possession and sale of steroids. Federal penalties for both possession and sale of steroids:
Simple possession of steroids with no prior offenses: Up to a year in federal prison; and/or Minimum fine of $1,000.
Simple possession of steroids with certain prior convictions: Minimum 15 days in prison, and up to two years in prison; and/or Minimum fine of $2,000.
Possession with intent to sell: Up to five years in prison; and/or Minimum fine of $5,000.
I know you will now say he hasn't been proven guilty. OJ wasn't proven guilty either. "Game of Shadows" chronicles it all.
I've yet to see any post talking about the legality of what Bonds has done. I have seen plenty of people saying he "cheated". If we are going to talk about illegal activities, Jim Brown, Kevin Mack, and many other Browns should be stripped of their records, places in history and our hearts as well.
Aaron will always be the Home Run King to me, but it is Bonds who holds the record now, and some will probably never let it go. I remember when Emmitt Smith broke the rushing records, and everyone talked about how he didn't deserve it (but had no reason why). With Bonds, there is a reason, and it will always follow him; he will never be fully accepted for it, and that's punishment enough. I think it's shameful to act like a surly crybaby, because the crap he has to put up with could never hold a candle to the things that Aaron put up with.
Question - someone was telling me about how the little armor thing Bonds wears on his arm isn't allowed in baseball, but Bonds was grandfathered into the rule...is this true or just more bitterness?
Quote: If we are going to talk about illegal activities, Jim Brown, Kevin Mack, and many other Browns should be stripped of their records, places in history and our hearts as well.
What crime was Jim Brown found guilty of during his playing days?
I don't believe murder against an MLB rule either. The point is that these are ILLEGAL substances.
The Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990 defines steroids as a Schedule III drug, and imposes federal penalties for both the illicit possession and sale of steroids. Federal penalties for both possession and sale of steroids:
Simple possession of steroids with no prior offenses: Up to a year in federal prison; and/or Minimum fine of $1,000.
Simple possession of steroids with certain prior convictions: Minimum 15 days in prison, and up to two years in prison; and/or Minimum fine of $2,000.
Possession with intent to sell: Up to five years in prison; and/or Minimum fine of $5,000.
I know you will now say he hasn't been proven guilty. OJ wasn't proven guilty either. "Game of Shadows" chronicles it all.
We have a winner!!
The way he cheated was by using an ILLEGAL substance that is known to help build the very things that make a better athlete, hand speed, strength, and visual accuity. Jim Brown smacked his wife around. How does that positively effect his running the football? Kevin Mack and Michael Irvin were coke heads. Though they used these drugs recreationally/habitually, I doubt they were all coked up during games. Even if they went into the games having bumped up, they couldn't have stayed high during the games without doing lines on the sideline. You'd crash before halftime or the end of the game. If anything these drugs would shorten your career not make you a freaking superman at 41 like Roidster.
What goes on the baseball field is usually exempt from Federal or State laws. Where else can someone throw an object at another persons head with the intent to cause injury, have it being caught on camera and not get charged with a crime.
He may have broken a steroid law....but MLB didn't have a rule against it. He may have cheated the government but he didn't cheat the game.
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
And how many "pitchers" did he face that were "roided up"?
If you look at those "caught" I think you'll find pitchers lead the pack.
See,that's the problem. It's the "roid age". So the pitchers roided up to get an advantage too. Just like "back in the day". The pitchers "scratched" the ball,or "oiled it up" and the hitters "corked" the bat.
You just want to make this "different". It's not. Cheating has been a part of baseball for decades. Still is. Only now,people who "love the game" don't want to fess up and pretend that it's something new.
ie... "Well,they used to cheat,but that was a different kind of cheating."
GMAFB!
Pretty absurd if you ask me.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Quote: Just like "back in the day". The pitchers "scratched" the ball,or "oiled it up" and the hitters "corked" the bat.
You just want to make this "different". It's not. Cheating has been a part of baseball for decades. Still is. Only now,people who "love the game" don't want to fess up and pretend that it's something new.
Last time I checked oiling or scratching a baseball won't get you 1 to 5 in the state penitentiary. Nor will it make your biceps and hat size grow to Hulk like sizes. If you can't see the difference between these types of cheating I can never help you see the light.
Bonds promises more bounty 08/10/2007 By Barry M. Bloom / MLB.com
SAN FRANCISCO -- With the pursuit of the all-time home run record behind him, and with only a cameo role to play as a pinch-hitter on Thursday, a relaxed and confident Barry Bonds played pitchman and prognosticator. With his record-setting 756th home run in the books -- and now 757 as well -- Bonds said he has his sights on new goals: 2,000 RBIs, 3,000 hits and 800 home runs.
And he said he'll be littering Major League parks all season with authenticated baseballs.
Bonds told MLB.com, and the Giants confirmed, that Major League Baseball will continue putting marked and authenticated baseballs into play on every pitch tossed to the all-time homer leader. That figures, considering every home run creates a new record and no one knows which one will be the last.
"These fans better understand something. It's the last home run ball that's really going to be worth something," said Bonds. "Baseball is trying to downplay it, but that's why they keep changing the balls every time I come up to hit. Technically, the last one is it -- 756 doesn't exist anymore. That ball's worth what it is. The last home run ball is worth the real money. The people need to keep coming out to see it. Because I swear I'll go run out there and catch it myself."
Matt Murphy, a tourist from Queens, N.Y., came up with the big fly about four rows deep in the bleachers just to the right of center field on Tuesday night when Bonds eclipsed Hank Aaron's record with his 756th homer. An offer for that ball of $500,000 has already been made public. No. 757 on Wednesday night was plucked out of McCovey Cove by a kayaker.
The outpouring of well-wishers from fans has been so overwhelming since Tuesday, Bonds said, that he has set up a hotline for people to leave their good-will messages -- 866-218-4117. Some of them will be available for public consumption on the slugger's web site, barrybonds.com.
Despite constant jeers on the road, fans have filled the stadiums - both at home and nationally - as Bonds chased down Aaron's record. Thursday's game included, the Giants have played in front of 16 consecutive sellouts at AT&T Park dating back to June 30, the day after Bonds hit No. 750 vs. the Diamondbacks, and 30 in a row overall since drawing 30,080 at Cincinnati on July 5.
Beginning with Friday night's opener of a three-game series against the Pirates, the Giants have 25 games remaining on a home slate that ends this season against the Padres on Sept. 26.
For Bonds, that still gives him plenty of time to accumulate the 17 RBIs he needs to become only the third player in the modern era behind Aaron and Babe Ruth to reach the 2,000 plateau in that category. Aaron leads with 2,297 and seems to be out of reach.
"The way I'm hitting now, I'll have no trouble doing that [reaching 2,000] this year," said Bonds, who's batting .316 (6-for-19) this month after a .186 month of July.
Bonds also is 84 hits away from becoming the 28th player to amass 3,000 hits. His godfather, Willie Mays, is 11th with 3,282 hits, which also seems to be a bit of a stretch. But there's nothing more important to Bonds than chasing down Willie's records. Bonds hit his 661st homer to pass Mays into third on the all-time list on April 13, 2004.
"Don't challenge me," said Bonds, noting that there were Mays marks he was still after.
When Bonds was told to consider it a challenge, he said: "I'll take that challenge and I'll blow you away."
Bonds, who already has said multiple times he intends to play next season, should pass the 3,000-hit mark in 2008. But he would probably need to continue on into 2009 if he has any chance of catching Mays in that department. He's only had 186 hits since 2004, including 12 in 14 games at the end of his injury-riddled 2005 season that included three surgeries on his right knee.
"We'll just see about that," Bonds said. "I'll do what I have to do."
Of course, edging closer to the 800-homer mark and creating more distance between Bonds and Alex Rodriguez is the big thing. The Yankees third baseman is expected to be the greatest challenger to Bonds' home run record. A-Rod just turned 32 last month and hit his 500th homer this past Saturday.
Bonds, now 43, has homered three times in his last four starts, a departure from the one-a-week pace he'd been on since opening the season with eight homers in April. Since then, he's hit four homers each in the months of May, June and July, but is off to that blistering start in August.
It's not inconceivable that he could hit 13 more, thus ending the season with 770, placing him well within distance of reaching 800 next season. Bonds' 23 homers this year are already the most for a player turning 43 or older in that particular season. Carlton Fisk, then with the White Sox, held that record when he hit 18 at 43 during the 1991 season. And Bonds' 74 since turning 40 are the most for any player after that age.
Aaron, in comparison, hit only 42 homers after turning 40, 22 of them as a designated hitter for the Brewers in his final two seasons. The Hammer's career petered out at 44. Fisk hit four homers in his final two seasons before retiring at 45.
"I can still hit," Bonds said. "I may not be able to run much anymore, but even then I can still pick my spots. All I want to do is hit more homers than I did last year."
Bonds is only three away from the 26 he hit last year when he played on a right knee recovering from those surgeries and with bone chips in his left elbow. His Major League-leading 115 walks in 100 games are already as many as he had when he played in 130 games all last season.
"Isn't that crazy?" asked Bonds, who is the career leader with 2,541 walks and 679 intentional.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The message I leave won't be available for public consumption....
Quote: Just like "back in the day". The pitchers "scratched" the ball,or "oiled it up" and the hitters "corked" the bat.
You just want to make this "different". It's not. Cheating has been a part of baseball for decades. Still is. Only now,people who "love the game" don't want to fess up and pretend that it's something new.
Last time I checked oiling or scratching a baseball won't get you 1 to 5 in the state penitentiary. Nor will it make your biceps and hat size grow to Hulk like sizes. If you can't see the difference between these types of cheating I can never help you see the light.
Oh,I see the difference. So these players "were in posession" of these steroids? Or was it their trainers that were "administering them" to these players?
You might just want to do a fact check on that. You seem quite confident these players are the one's who acquired these substances and dosed themselves. I mean that IS the "criminal activity" you're speaking of,is it not?
Funny,but that seems like a pretty big "assumption" on your part doesn't it?
Maybe that's why they called it the "Balco" investigation???? Nah,couldn't be.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Your Bar-roid blinders will never let you see the reality of the situation.
If my friend came into my house and injected me with "his" heroin and the cops busted the door down... I guess I could just mummble in my high state that they weren't "my" drugs and hope I don't get hauled off to jail. It works for Barry. Hell his stupid friend/trainer is rotting in prison now for going along with the "story".
How immature do you have to be to follow your line of thinking? I just can't fathom standing up for this creep.
Barry WILL be a first ballot hall of famer. And when all the media drivel of his perceived infidelities go away, so will the brainwashed people who seem to think Barry is so undeserving. History will treat Bonds well.
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"Game of Shadows" chronicles it all.
