I wonder if people like Vambo, 40, Perfect, OCD, etc ever wonder if they are doing more harm than good for their side?
For example, when I read outright lies by posters like device and eotab about Baker Mayfield, it kinda makes me like Baker less. That might not be fair, but it's just the way it is.
So...........for you extreme posters......think about this: You're one-sided commentary is not truly furthering your cause, but instead, it is a detriment to your intentions. Subtlety might be a better option.
Who was it in the HATE threat that stated "you don't like my post don't read it" and that was followed by someone who mentioned "you like to pick fights" you did in this post and then you complain about others?
Lets keep it real, Vers might pick fights, but he isnt an extremist like you are. He posts sensible, while your posts are just eye roll worthy.
Have you read any of Vers posts? If you don’t agree with him is a sports thread or an illegal immigration thread your immediately labeled and insulted.
Don’t know about you, but the way he goes around here not unlike the bull in the China shop disqualifies him from coming into another thread and wooing for civility.
WE DON'T NEED A QB BEFORE WE GET A LINE THAT CAN PROTECT HIM my two cents...
Eh, speaking as a previously suspended person, I'm not a ref. I have picked fights with Vers in the past. Knock down drag out fights.
But the thing is, you don't have to fight with him if you dont want to.
He doesnt go all extremism in his PP posts.
Just the same like people dont have to fight with me. Because I'll talk ish until the end of time if someone fights with me. But most people are sensible not to.
"As I said today and many times before, “I have GREAT confidence in MY intelligence people.” However, I also recognize that in order to build a brighter future, we cannot exclusively focus on the past – as the world’s two largest nuclear powers, we must get along!"
-President of the United States of America Donald Trump
Didn't you say in a previous post in this thread that he was totally justified in having NO confidence in his own intelligence community? In fact you seemed to gloat about why he should NOT trust them...
Now you are quoting and bragging about how he DOES trust them...
think about this: You're one-sided commentary is not truly furthering your cause, but instead, it is a detriment to your intentions. Subtlety might be a better option.
This is 100% true. When the left goes on their rants, I find myself wanting to defend Trump.. even though I don't really like him as President, he's not Hitler and some of the stuff that is said is just immature, stupid, and unproductive.. likewise when others start with their Trump worship, I have to call them on it too.. because he is an extremely abrasive and horrible human being in a lot of ways and he has done a lot of things I disagree with, and his tweets and his penchant for picking petty fights is his own worst enemy..
Don't list me with them bro, and in times like today there is only one side anyone should be on and that's Americas. It's a shame Trump doesn't get that.
and in times like today there is only one side anyone should be on and that's Americas. It's a shame Trump doesn't get that.
And maybe if the left and the media didn't run in hysterics every time Trump said or did any little thing and act like the world was coming to an end, turning up the volume to 11 every single time.... then today, when it might be warranted..... it would be easier to get people to listen.
On the heels of US indictments against a dozen Russian operatives for committing a cyber attack against the US election process, our President stood beside the Russian President and took the side of Russia in denying the allegations. This single act flies in the face of every American that has ever served this country as both insult and treachery.
Yes I called it Treason because that is what I think I saw today.
I'm not going to trade insults with 40 and Vambo or anyone else for that matter about this issue. I understand why you supported Trump and why you've defended him. But I will ask, if this is not too far for him to go what is?
There will always be a time for partisanship, but when our country is under attack we always come together. That time is now.
and in times like today there is only one side anyone should be on and that's Americas. It's a shame Trump doesn't get that.
And maybe if the left and the media didn't run in hysterics every time Trump said or did any little thing and act like the world was coming to an end, turning up the volume to 11 every single time.... then today, when it might be warranted..... it would be easier to get people to listen.
This is somewhat true.
But at the same time this president has done many many things that would have been reported as a national crisis under any other former president.
I agree the talk of impeachment based on nothing but emotions and the ratcheting up of the small stuff drowns out the important stuff .... but let's not pretend this is new. Fox and the Looney alt right did this for both of Obama's terms. From bowing to foreign leaders to birthers.... Sur you'd like one side to show common sense and keep it real but if you go to the extreme of either party they are the same.
Last edited by mgh888; 07/17/1806:03 AM.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
And maybe if the left and the media didn't run in hysterics every time Trump said or did any little thing and act like the world was coming to an end, turning up the volume to 11 every single time.... then today, when it might be warranted..... it would be easier to get people to listen.
So you believe that if people spoke in hushed tones and extreme deference that it would change people's minds? That all that needs to happen to change a trump supporters mind is to speak softly? Come on. You're tone policing. It's a form of ad hominem where you are attacking someone directly for their point of view. Because after all, if the person wasn't hysterical , maybe you'd listen?
People are allowed to be upset DC. Would you tell a woman who has a missing child that you will be glad to help her, but only if she stops crying? Sure, the missing child is ultimately of little importance to you, but very important to her. Just like PSLF and healthcare are very important for others. Telling people to calm down isn't a call for civility. If anything, it's a lack of empathy.
I think the point being made is that if the lady screams equally loud when she loses a hair brush as when she loses her child, constantly, then the message gets diluted...
There is a little of that going on. If you watch msnbc or some of the Fox clones for the Left, they treat everything the same. But thats why going to a more middle of the road media source helps filter some of that noise out.
By and large unless you're just a troll or a complete empty vessel, there is universal shock and abhorrence at what Trump just did. And it doesn't and shouldn't matter how msnbc treats the rest of the Trump news to accept and appreciate that. we want people to be independent thinkers period, whether from bias from their media sources and their political party.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
and in times like today there is only one side anyone should be on and that's Americas. It's a shame Trump doesn't get that.
And maybe if the left and the media didn't run in hysterics every time Trump said or did any little thing and act like the world was coming to an end, turning up the volume to 11 every single time.... then today, when it might be warranted..... it would be easier to get people to listen.
I have watched a slew of people from the Left today and their message is similar...
The Summit is called "The Treasonous Summit" and the President is Treasonous. They are also saying that anyone who speaks up in support of our President is also Treasonous.
I think it's important to understand the basis of this week's anti-Trump hysteria. Our federal grand jury indicted 12 Russians for meddling in our election(s).
A federal grand jury INDICTMENT basically means that sufficient evidence exists that warrants a TRIAL. A trial for the 12 accused Russians has not yet been brought to the court. It reads to me like there is a lot of fire to go with that smoke. However, a grand jury INDICTMENT is not a finding of guilt. That may or may not come about in a pending TRIAL. That is simply how our judicial system works.
Trump reportedly met one-on-one with Putin for some three hours. Then they held a joint press conference. During that press conference, Trump pronounced his confidence in our intelligence community and announced that Putin denied any election meddling. I didn't hear or read any disparaging of our intelligence community nor did I hear his exoneration of Putin.
So...our own judicial system has not yet found ANYONE guilty of ANY election meddling, but Trump is supposed to bloviate on a global stage how bad Putin is for meddling in our election...even when our own judicial system has not yet determined that that very act even occurred.
The TDS crowd will not be able to get their mind around that little tid bit - which comes as no surprise to anyone. Yet somehow, the TDS crowd finds that Trump NOT spewing unfounded accusations equates to treason? Or that he's now a traitor? Puhleeeeze.
So I say again...given the FACTS that we have today - and had yesterday - what, exactly was Trump supposed to say on that global stage after a three hour, one-on-one meeting? How about "We haven't yet had a trial, but I know you are guilty."?
Rand Paul sides with Trump on Russia, says critics 'motivated' by dislike of president
Sen. Rand Paul, R-Ky., on Monday expressed his approval of President Donald Trump’s handling of Russia despite the tsunami of criticism the president faced after his press conference with Russian President Vladimir Putin.
“It’s gotten so ridiculous that someone has to stand up and say we should try to engage even our adversaries and open up our lines of communication,” Paul told Politico after the controversial press conference.
“We’re going to talk to the president about some small steps in order to try to thaw the relations between our countries,” the senator added, noting that he’s set to travel to Russia early next month to continue the dialogue that Trump started.
I don't understand how he thought this was going to go over well with literally any American. Like I get the intent.....good relations with Russia is a good thing...sure of course I get it. To throw your own team under the buss to that end? Seems like someone in way over their head floundering to come up with the right words.
Certainly incompetence, but treason? Christ, so dramatic, when everything is treason when we actually see treason how will we even know it? Dems have cried wolf for so long now it's impossible to take them serious.
I echoed a "Clear and present danger" sentiment recently when discussing his inflammatory rhetoric. It is going to end up with another politically motivated shooting, mark my words.
Dept Of Justice charge Russian National linked to NRA
By Sarah N. Lynch
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A 29-year-old Russian woman living in Washington, D.C., has been arrested and charged with conspiracy to act as an agent of the Russian government while developing ties with American citizens and infiltrating political groups, the U.S. Justice Department said on Monday.
Maria Butina, who studied at American University in Washington and is a founder of the pro-gun Russian advocacy group Right to Bear Arms, was arrested on Sunday and accused of operating at the direction of a high-level official who worked for the Russian Central Bank and was recently sanctioned by the U.S. Treasury's Office of Foreign Assets Control, the Justice Department said.
The court records did not name the official.
Butina has appeared in numerous photographs on her Facebook page with Alexander Torshin, the deputy head of Russia's Central Bank who was sanctioned by the U.S. Treasury Department in April. A person familiar with the matter told Reuters that Butina worked for him as an assistant. Other media reported on a business relationship between Butina and Torshin.
Reuters could not immediately reach Torshin for comment.
Robert Driscoll, an attorney for Butina, said she was not a Russian agent. He said she was cooperating with U.S. authorities and had previously appeared voluntarily behind closed doors for eight hours before the U.S. Senate Select Committee on Intelligence. Her apartment was raided by the FBI in April, he said.
"Ms. Butina intends to defend her rights vigorously and looks forward to clearing her name," Driscoll said.
The Justice Department complaint was made public on the same day President Donald Trump met with Russian President Vladimir Putin at a summit in Helsinki, at which Trump refused to blame the Russian leader for meddling in the 2016 U.S. presidential election.
Before the summit, Trump took to Twitter to blast Special Counsel Robert Mueller's investigation into whether Trump's campaign colluded with Russia, calling it a "rigged witch hunt."
The investigation into Butina's efforts to influence American politics was overseen by the Justice Department's National Security Division and the U.S. Attorney's Office for the District of Columbia, and not by Mueller's office.
Democrats on the U.S. House Intelligence Committee investigating any ties between Trump's campaign and Russia previously highlighted Butina as a person of interest and sought permission from the committee's Republican leadership to bring her in for questioning.
Republicans declined that request and later issued a report along party lines that found there was no collusion between Trump's campaign and Russia.
INFLUENCE, INFILTRATE
The Justice Department said in its complaint that Butina worked with two unnamed U.S. citizens and the Russian official to try to influence American politics and infiltrate a pro-gun rights organization.
The complaint did not name the group, however photos on her Facebook page showed that she attended events sponsored by the National Rifle Association. An NRA spokesman did not reply to requests for comment.
Butina allegedly arranged dinners in Washington and New York City and tried to develop relationships with American politicians to establish "back channel" lines of communication to "penetrate the U.S. national decision-making apparatus," the complaint said.
The complaint did not specifically mention Trump's campaign.
The source who said Butina worked for Torshin said that she was a Trump supporter who bragged at parties in Washington that she could use her political connections to help get people jobs in the Trump administration after the election.
In a Dec. 8, 2016, class project at American University, Butina gave a presentation titled "What Might President Trump's Foreign Policy Be Toward Russia?" and listed several of Russia's key policy objectives, according to a copy reviewed by Reuters.
American University spokesman Mark Story told Reuters that Butina was enrolled as a student there in the summer of 2016 and graduated in the spring of 2018 with a Master of Arts degree.
In a video posted on YouTube from the FreedomFest event in Las Vegas in July 2015, Butina can be seen asking then-candidate Trump if he would continue to support sanctions against Russia if he were elected president.
The Justice Department's complaint also referenced an email written by Butina in March 2015 which discussed the prospect of a major political party winning the 2016 election which was "traditionally associated with negative and aggressive foreign policy" toward Russia.
She went on to say in the email that they should build a relationship with a major gun rights organization that is the "largest sponsor of the elections to the U.S. Congress" and a sponsor of the Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) in order to improve U.S.-Russia relations.
On her Facebook page, Butina is featured prominently photographed alongside a number of American politicians and other high-profile figures, including Wisconsin Governor and former Republican presidential candidate Scott Walker and David Keene, the former president of the NRA.
Butina was ordered held pending a hearing set for Wednesday, the Justice Department said.
Putin said he’d allow members of Mueller’s team into Russia only if the US allowed him to reciprocate — to allow Russian operatives into the US. Specifically, Putin mentioned allegations against financier and vocal Putin critic Bill Browder — whom he accused of funneling (along with his associates) $400 million in donations to Hillary Clinton’s campaign.
People need to know the Bill Browder story. It's like something out of a Tom Clancy novel. If Putin had even a ghost of a chance, Browder would already be dead.
18 U.S. Code 2381 TREASON, SEDITION, AND SUBVERSIVE ACTIVITIES
18 U.S. Code § 2381
Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
So you believe that if people spoke in hushed tones and extreme deference that it would change people's minds?
No, just logical and rational without reference to Hitler and Brownshirts and Stalin.. you can be upset, you can raise the volume to 7 or 8... you can voice your opinion.. and you can still be rational.
Quote:
That all that needs to happen to change a trump supporters mind is to speak softly? Come on. You're tone policing.
Is that what all of the hysteria and over-the-top rhetoric and name calling is designed to do, change a Trump supporters mind? Is that what changes your mind, somebody insulting you and calling you a moron, hypocrite, racist, bigot, Nazi? Because if you are a Nazi, then you don't care.. and if you aren't a Nazi, then screw you for calling me one.. either way, you aren't winning me over... you are just making yourself feel better.
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Because after all, if the person wasn't hysterical , maybe you'd listen?
Yes.. I'm much more inclined to listen to somebody make a logical and rational argument, even if I got into it not agreeing with them... than I am to listen to somebody who is hysterical and name-calling and exaggerating and being totally out of control
I don't think that I'm unique.. sometimes I get really angry and I just want to vent and shout horrible things.. but I also understand that I'm far more likely to actually sway somebody's opinion by not doing that.. and I assure you, I've never gone back to re-evaluate my position on something because I was screamed at and insulted...
Quote:
Would you tell a woman who has a missing child that you will be glad to help her, but only if she stops crying? Sure, the missing child is ultimately of little importance to you, but very important to her.
No, that missing child would immediately become very important to me.. and if we were at a Target and a woman started screaming that her child was missing and we found that kid a few aisles over amid some racks of t-shirts, I would feel relief.. then if she started screaming the same thing 10 minutes later, and we found the kid near the toy section, I would feel relief.. if she started again 10 minutes later screaming the same thing... the amount of anxiety I feel over finding that child is really going to start going down because I'll just assume the kid is around here somewhere and she is hysterical... See what I'm saying?
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Telling people to calm down isn't a call for civility. If anything, it's a lack of empathy.
In the end, people are going to do whatever in the hell they want to do.. I live in no grand illusion that little ol' me is going to change the tide of hatred in this country.. but lack of civility is one of the big reasons we have Trump in the first place. You understand that right? This didn't start with him and it's not going to end with whatever person follows him.. it's going to get worse, he made it worse, a lot worse.. and not only did we let him, we helped him...
So you let me know when the hatred, the insults, the name-calling, the hyperbole, from either side starts to make this country better... you know where to find me.
Speaking of Stalin I was at the reformatory this weekend for a concert in Mansfield and was surprised at the fact that I was slightly triggered by a Giant 10 foot image of him on the walls.
Trump says Putin, in their meeting be says/insists he had nothing to do with trying to influence the usa election. By "he"... It was a state funded or organized operation.
The whole world and the Usa intelligence agencies all day otherwise. We have the Mueller investigation and we have indictments against individual Russians. the validity of the Mueller investigation has been validated by many many Republicans....
Trump says he believes Putin.
That is a punch in the face to everyone working in any of those agencies. That's what I think. It's what most news agencies around The globe have reported. It's what every democrat has said and it's what a ton of repubs have said.
The fact people are trying to redirecting is simply sad. . . . What about What about whatabout
The more things change the more they stay the same.
Trump says Putin, in their meeting be says/insists he had nothing to do with trying to influence the usa election. By "he"... It was a state funded or organized operation.
The whole world and the Usa intelligence agencies all day otherwise. We have the Mueller investigation and we have indictments against individual Russians. the validity of the Mueller investigation has been validated by many many Republicans....
Trump says he believes Putin.
That is a punch in the face to everyone working in any of those agencies. That's what I think. It's what most news agencies around The globe have reported. It's what every democrat has said and it's what a ton of repubs have said.
The fact people are trying to redirecting is simply sad. . . . What about What about whatabout
your quote:
"...we have indictments against individual Russians..."
Yes we do. A grand jury indictment. That means a trial is warranted. It does NOT mean guilt has been decreed. A trial has not yet taken place. (Disclaimer: I think Putin is guilty as OJ. BUT, that has not yet been PROVEN in our own court.)
Trump said that Putin said he didn't do it. Putin says Putin didn't do it. That does not mean Trump agrees with Putin. Shocker. Trump did NOT say Putin did not do it. I missed where Trump said he believed Putin. Help me out there.
The President of the US stood on stage and gave comfort and relief to the leader and state that just attacked the US in the cyber-sphere which by all accounts is an act of war. This is the definition of treason.
You can bring up whataboutisms until you are blue in the face, that will not change what the whole world witnessed yesterday and the overwhelming majority agrees was in service to Russia's best interest and not that of the US.
BREAKING NEWS: Trump reverses course and says he ACCEPTS that Russia meddled and meant to say he saw no reason why it would NOT be Putin's spies who interfered in the election
The President of the US stood on stage and gave comfort and relief to the leader and state that just attacked the US in the cyber-sphere which by all accounts is an act of war. This is the definition of treason.
You can bring up whataboutisms until you are blue in the face, that will not change what the whole world witnessed yesterday and the overwhelming majority agrees was in service to Russia's best interest and not that of the US.
The Trump hysteria does not make your projections true.
Answer this one question: Has there been a trial for the 12 Russians indicted for election meddling by a grand jury?
BREAKING NEWS: Trump reverses course and says he ACCEPTS that Russia meddled and meant to say he saw no reason why it would NOT be Putin's spies who interfered in the election
